OPN - Disco Inferno Episode 6 - “The Sound of Thunder”

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Open Pike Night and our continuing coverage of Discovery Season 2, Disco Inferno.

[00:00:34] We are here tonight to share our thoughts like so many head, quills, neck, ganglia, I don't know, we'll be firing thoughts everywhere tonight. I'm your host John T. Boulds and of course I'm here with my co-host and some fantastic guests tonight. First up, the man who absolutely would dig through 100,000 years of data to find out anything he could about any planet he wanted, Jesse Bailey.

[00:00:59] Yeah, it seems like their version of Wikipedia is much less accessible than our version of Wikipedia. Which is funny because I remember in high school teachers were like, don't use Wikipedia as a source and now it's like the only true thing left on the internet. That's right. And the man who absolutely would just go back home for, you know, to find that family member and immediately find them because, well, he's from a really small town, Cameron Harrison.

[00:01:26] That's not inaccurate, Producer John. And look everyone, I know I'm not Wilson Cruz, but just once in my life I want someone to describe me as pristine. Is that too much to ask? Good luck, Cameron. And tonight we are joined by some fantastic guests. We had a booth next to them at Trek Long Island this last year, and it was a super fun weekend. We are joined by the sci-fi sisters, Yvette. Woohoo!

[00:01:56] Sabrina. Woohoo! And Tabea. Hello! Hello, hello, hello! Thank you all for joining us. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Yeah, this is fun. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we are here discussing tonight, Discovery, Season 2, Episode 6, The Sound of Thunder, a good classic sci-fi reference right off the bat in the title. But why?

[00:02:23] Because, Cameron, this is where the dinosaurs show up. Okay. And then you step on a butterfly. Wait, no. I'm realizing I don't know why either. There is an alien butterfly in the beginning shot, so maybe that's it. I don't know. Yeah? Yeah. That's all I got. Maybe it has something to do with how a change that feels small can have lasting large effects. So what change is that? The entire Kelpien species changes.

[00:02:53] That's a pretty big change. I mean, you know, but it starts with Saru. Sure. Because of the sphere. I don't... It's not an exact science, okay, man? It's title writing. I'm just glad I'm not alone. I'm just glad I'm not alone. Yeah. Well, just give a nod to Ray Bradbury. That's right. I mean, hey, always fine with that. Mm-hmm. Did you notice, or did you think when Saru is approaching Hugh while he zips up his uniform,

[00:03:22] is that his way of saying, like, hey, you want to put a shirt on because you're making the rest of us look bad? That's gotta be what it is. Clearly. I mean, Saru doesn't look too bad either. I mean, he could keep his shirt off. Sure, but he's no Wilson Cruz, let's be honest. No, no, no. I mean, nobody. There's very few human beings. There is no other Wilson Cruz. Oh, my God, that man. Yeah.

[00:03:51] Like I said, I mean, the word pristine. I appreciate that he likes to take off his shirt. He's probably the only person you could see described as pristine and still go, that's kind of an understatement. Maybe ramp that up a little bit there, Dr. Pollard. Well, they do ramp it up. I mean, I know we didn't see it at this point in the series, but season five is like, man, this guy's really jacked. He gets to say it about himself. It works out. Season five. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[00:04:21] True. Yeah. That was a really good scene, though, between Saru and Coldfire. I thought that was a nice, like, you know, sometimes a change isn't so bad. Like, oh, they're both going through something similar, but in very different ways. And I thought it worked a lot better than the kind of heavy handed opening log they start with. Well, I actually wrote in my notes that how much I'd love them opening the episode with the two characters.

[00:04:45] And like to use Saru's words, have who have endured something that no one thought possible, you know? And I just thought that was a beautiful symmetry. And, you know, like it was just, it was totally fitting because like you're going through, you're going through this experience. Nobody else has a frame of reference for what you go through. And even though their experiences aren't exactly the same, at least it's a similar context. Right. You know? And, uh, yeah, I loved that part.

[00:05:15] I loved that. You make a very good point, especially about the symmetry. Like there's symmetry in the episode. It has symmetry with other stories in Star Trek. Like I immediately thought, you mean I have to die to discuss your thoughts on death? Like it's like straight out of a McCoy Spock situation. But then you have this other parallel where when Saru touches Hugh, he kind of makes a face, but he doesn't pull away.

[00:05:41] But then later when he's talking to Paul, he physically recoils from Paul and it's like. And like slaps his hand away. And yeah. Oh my gosh. Like I'm feeling upset just talking about it. Yeah. That was hard. Right? Yeah. That's where I realized their relationship, Culver and, um, damn it. It's a reverse cast away. Oh yeah. That's true. The person coming back is the one who, uh, who needs some space and has moved on in a way. And the whole story wasn't spoiled in the trailer. I assume it's the other one.

[00:06:12] One volleyball away. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you know what I thought? I thought this was one of those times when they sort of missed a little bit that they could have done because, uh, you know, Culver was having some problems and there wasn't a counselor. This is a pre-counselorship, but we had, you know, Dr. Pollard there. Now these two were, you know, colleagues and, you know, she usually you would have had bones sitting there, the one listening to somebody that had some kind of issue maybe, you know,

[00:06:42] especially if it's another officer like that. So I wish they had a little bit where she had talked to Culver because she knew him the best. I would think of everybody on that crew, but we didn't get it. Always a missed opportunity with her. Yeah. That one hurts. Is this the longest scene she ever gets? Like, this is a lot of Pollard for one episode. This is a lot of Pollard for some seasons. It is.

[00:07:08] I know she has more coming up toward the end of this season, but as far as like unbroken screen time goes, I think you might be right. I remember she appeared in an earlier episode this season because I remember writing like, Oh yeah, I love this character. I wish we'd see more of her. Yeah. I've thought about a lot of characters. I know, right? Many Star Trek characters. Well, especially in Discovery. I mean, they have so many characters. I think they have way too many characters that they give us to love and then they do nothing with them.

[00:07:38] Yeah. A lot of missed opportunities in this whole series, you know? Yeah. Speaking of those characters that they do end up doing something with though, I like how Saru grew an entire garden out of the seeds he took from the planet. Yes. And then we grow a whole arc for Arium out of the little seed of Arium we get in this episode. This is the first indication that like, Oh, they're going to start building her up so they can kill her later. Yeah. Yeah. They do that a lot.

[00:08:06] When you start caring about characters, be careful. Right. Watch out. Discovery and Game of Thrones. Oh yeah. I actually forgot about that. Cause I remember thinking like, Oh, this is the season where they suddenly care about Arium and then kill her in one episode. But you're right, Cameron. They start talking about it here. A little bit. I mean, I remember, I think the next season or the season after they start having a whoa, explain her backstory. And I'm like, do not, do not, do not. Right.

[00:08:36] I will stop watching. What are we doing? Mm-hmm . But just like you were saying how they build up the Arium, they actually build this one up for a while. I think in the beginning of the season, we kept hearing about Kaminar and then I think the brightest star that the short tracks. So this episode had a lot of, you know, we were building up to this episode for a while also. So, um, they, they've done that a lot.

[00:09:04] I think, I think there's another one that they build up to, but I can't think of it right now. Uh, the girl who made the stars has some bearing on this one. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm cause that's, yeah. Yeah. Cause we go into seeing Michael in the closet with, uh, you know, unfortunately listening to her parents, uh, being killed. And she talks, yeah, there's a lot of that. She talks about the Klingons, you know, eating at her table, but a lot of buildup to a lot of these. And I just love this season.

[00:09:33] I miss short tracks to you, man. Yeah. And I love this season, even though it has so much Ash Tyler in it, he is just there to be a contrarian. Like just because this incredibly specific thing to the one Kelpien and Starfleet is happening, doesn't mean it's connected to the ship he's on. I'm like, dude, relax. Look, you know, you know that there's a whole playbook for this. You know, you've got that dude in your life too. Like we all got dude. Yes.

[00:10:03] Would you, you know what I mean? That dude is me because I am like, yes, we have a rogue time traveler just floating through the galaxy with, we don't know why this, we gotta get on this guys. Just assuming there's some benevolent creature. Come on. Okay. So what I'm hearing, Cameron, is you don't have faith of the heart. That's what I'm talking about. No, but I do love faith of the heart. There we go. Yeah. Well, we do have faith in our callers.

[00:10:32] So let's go ahead and hear from one of them. First up, we usually put it into the end. Let's hear from Melanie first. Hi guys. Happy New Year. My quick thoughts on the sound of thunder. What is a calpion without fear? Saru doesn't want to leave the captain's chair. My favorite line. We need a Spock. The Baula. Horrifying. Saru is in some kind of puberty. Pike has to deal with it. It's hilarious. Chris Pike does not like it when one of his crew is taken. And Saru doing MacGyver.

[00:11:00] My facet, which means conclusion in German. Pike can't stand and watch while calpions are being slaughtered. I think Saru's sudden fearlessness doesn't come across as newfound courage, but as a lack of fear. It is more like a recklessness that made him also more aggressive towards Pike. It's not hard to see why the Baul feared the calpions. This is another standard episode for Pike. He is faced with a practically impossible position. Protects Saru and his people.

[00:11:26] Convince the Baul that the calpions could be trusted and lived with when they have absolutely no reason to believe it. Pike's immense empathy shines through as he tries to understand Saru's emotions. The declaration, he is our people, is undoubtedly a very powerful moment. In the end a resolution, like the ones we find in life, is neat and it isn't tidy, and it is rough and we know the Baul are going to live in terror for a long time. Until Sirana manages to lead the calpions in a peaceful endeavor towards them.

[00:11:55] If she can, what if the calpions don't want to just forgive and forget? Is the cycle going to continue? Such a good episode, and of course I love Pike in it. He is my favorite captain after all. So, live long and prosper! I'm really glad Melanie brought that up. Like, this is the beginning of action Saru. Right. The Saru that we come to know. Yeah. I think that's in everybody's notes. Yeah.

[00:12:22] And he is very lucky that Pike is the world's most understanding stepdad. You know what I am, man. But, I mean, Pike is lucky to have Saru there in the first place and should be listening to him, and I feel like the episode does a great job of balancing those two viewpoints. Like, they don't come right out and say like, no, Saru shouldn't be acting like this. Or no, Pike is wrong or completely right. They show a nice balance of that. And I agree with you, Melanie.

[00:12:50] This is a really great Pike and Saru episode. They don't treat him like Worf. And tell him that he knows. No, no, no, no, no. Ah, thankfully. Talking about Klingons, they tell Worf he don't know. Right. He doesn't know. He probably knows the least about Klingons than anyone. I have one weird thing that I noticed. And I want to thank you guys for asking us on for this episode because I hadn't seen it in a while. And it was really good. I forgot how good it was.

[00:13:19] But here's my strange observation. Pike has got to be the only captain that had two first officers under him that were there in Starfleet under the blanket of asylum. Hmm. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. That's brilliant. That's a good point. What is going on? Yeah. I said, wait a minute. That was like, wait, like, she claimed asylum. And so did. Wow. I had that even happened to him. But he is. He's the captain, man.

[00:13:49] Well, he's the Boy Scout for that. Oh, yeah. You know, he's the one. I mean, he is the he is the captain that that would make more sense. Yeah. He says it with the Rungovians in Strange New Worlds. Right. Radical empathy. And apparently he's had been practicing that for a while. Mm hmm. Yeah. He is. You know, that's who we I think that's who we all were told that he was. You know, I think they I think all of us saying that that's her favorite character. And I think it was very good.

[00:14:18] Yeah. Very good captain. Her favorite captain. And I think it's her favorite character, too. Trust me. She described Anson Mount love officer. So. Yeah. Yeah. But she I mean, we've always known that not even answer mouth, but the character of Pike was known to be this empathetic human. You know, I mean, from the beginning, I mean, even when we were when we didn't even know who he was, you know, just these little things.

[00:14:47] And even when we were trying to get up in. I can't remember the name of the original the cage. Um, you know, we saw that he he wanted he didn't want Spock to to help him. He wanted Spock to get in trouble. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:15:17] I'm happy to give this note in response to Melanie's call because she is the Anson Mount love officer. Uh, but I do. I'm thinking back to the first time I watched the season, which I did mostly with arms crossed and a scowl. Uh, I do remember this being the episode being like, oh, man, this guy is doing something like I'm really into what he's doing. And I know, like, Anson Mount and Christopher Pike had some good episodes earlier in the season like we talked about, but they were kind of about him.

[00:15:47] And this one, it's not about him so much. He's just up there being a good captain while all this other stuff is happening around him. And he's still like magnetic and you're still like rooting for him and being like, oh, how's he going to handle this situation? Yeah. In a way that I was like, for me, this was the episode where I was like, yes, I want to see more from this captain. I want the spinoff. Yeah. And I agree with you about that, especially because, um, how he was handling Saru's little like teenage, like emotional crisis moment.

[00:16:16] I mean, that's the way I view it. Like, you know, Saru's going through puberty at this time and like his emotions are all over the place. And, you know, and Pike was just so steady and it was like, look, it's not what you think. Like, I'm going to, here's the, the issue, the actual issue beyond your emotions about a thing. The actual issue is this, this, and this, which Saru could not see at that moment. And I thought that that was just beautiful and admirable, you know, the way that they

[00:16:45] wrote his, his reactions to him, how he dealt with him and kept everything like on point on tap, you know? Yeah. Even with Ash. Right. Even with Ash. When Ash came up and he was like, oh, you know, we're going to do this to section 31 way. And Pike just looked at him like, how about we knock on the door first? Right. That's right. Because we were uninvited. So let's try to be good humans. Yeah. He didn't give him like a whole big list.

[00:17:14] You know, he just settled, settled them right down. Like this is what we're going to do. But then when he needed to throw Saru's butt off that bridge, he did. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was, especially as you were saying, like, it's not an episode about Pike. Like it is squarely about Saru and there's some, some Michael and some Culber stuff in there too, but this is an episode about Saru. Mm-hmm. And to just have the characters so incredibly nailed down six episodes into a season like

[00:17:44] this is very impressive. And spoiler alert, I think we've been watching this season almost weekly. And I think this is my favorite episode of the season so far. Like it is very, very well done. There's a lot going on, but you don't get that season two discovery syndrome of like, okay, which plot line are we on now? Yeah. It's one thing and it's done incredibly well. Yeah. I liked, I liked a lot about it.

[00:18:13] I liked a lot about this episode. This is written by our favorite writing, my favorite writing team. This is, you know, Bo and Erica writing this one. So they've got a lot of stuff in this and they did it, they did it really well, even though I did, you know, there's a couple of things I think could have been done, but whatever, but they had so much in this. And then just my favorite thing in this entire season was this year. I just thought that was like one of the best ideas.

[00:18:40] Like I had never seen anything like that in another episode. Like we never got like who made it or anything like that, but it just always fascinated me that this thing was out there. And that this triggered Saru. I'm like, Oh, okay. I'm gonna give you props for that one. Wikipedia's logo is a sphere. Isn't it, Jesse? Yes, it is. Yeah. It is. And that's why, because they're big fans of star Trek discovery. I'm, I'm nearly sure. That's true. That's true.

[00:19:12] Speaking of big fans, let's go ahead and hear from another one of our callers. Here is Abby. Hey, hey, open pike. It's Abby summer from the first flight podcast. I am so excited to talk about the sound of thunder, which I know from listening to you guys is not one of your most favorite, but I absolutely adore Saru. I always say I don't really have a favorite Trek character, but he is in the top mix. I really resonate with him. And this is such a powerhouse Saru episode.

[00:19:38] I love going to Kaminar and seeing the, all the aesthetic there. The Baul are so icky and creepy. The Kelpien are so simple and elegant. I think it's amazing. I love, love, love the friendship between Michael and Saru. I love Saru and Sarana. I love sassy Saru on the bridge this episode. Like, I love this episode. It is such a powerhouse performance from Doug Jones.

[00:20:04] And I really like when we see Pike in here struggling to deal with a post-Fahari Saru in a situation that is poking him in ways he's never been poked before. So I love this episode. I can't wait to hear what you think of it. Hope this finds you well. Well, Cameron, I assume Abby is referring to you because this absolutely is one of my favorite episodes. And I like Abby, I can't believe you did not bring up the robes on Kaminar.

[00:20:32] I want that outfit. It looks so incredibly comfortable. And I have to agree with you on everything you said, but I have to pinpoint Sarana. I think she is a top three long lost sibling in all of Star Trek. And I love her. That's a big list too. I'm serious. Like, her introduction to Michael works so much better than most first contact stories in all of Star Trek.

[00:20:59] I mean, she plays cautiously optimistic yet incredibly open-minded and empathetic in such a warm way. Like, I really think that Hannah Spear, who plays Sarana, matches Doug Jones when it comes to acting in prosthetics in this episode. Which is not something I knew was possible. Like, mind-blowing. I was thinking about that watching this. It's like, she must have been pretty intimidated, like, going up against Doug Jones and having to equal him in many scenes.

[00:21:29] Yeah. And she crushed it. Yeah. So speaking of that scene, one of my favorite Trek tropes other than long lost siblings is whenever the humans get to be the alien. Yeah. I love any time they get to do that. And a character gets to be like, wow, look at those weird round ears of yours or whatnot. Always fun. I like this episode quite a bit this time. I really only have two big issues.

[00:21:52] One's a big issue, and I'll just talk about the minor one now because we've been talking a lot about, like, when Saru has his first, like, kind of aggro Saru moment on the bridge against the pike. Before that, we have two scenes that are just briefing room scene exposition dumps. And the first one, and this is not a problem with Discovery. This is a problem with most streaming shows right now. The camera is just whipping around these characters. Oh, my God. Because they're just having a debrief. Yes. So dizzy. They're just talking. Oh, my God.

[00:22:22] Sabrina hates that. I hate it, too. It's amazing. Yes. Thank you. Because we get to this amazing moment where Saru, action Saru, starts bristling towards Captain Pike, who we love already. Right. And it's just shot like any other scene. And I'm like, no, no, this is where the tension needs to be. Not in that other scene. Anyway, that's my nitpick for this episode. Yeah. And I get that it's like, oh, look at these two halves of Michael's world pulling her in different directions.

[00:22:51] It's like, yeah, you can accomplish that by cutting back and forth. Yeah. I don't need a spin. Like, it's okay. Film, the film language that's been around for 100 years is still okay to use. Yeah. Yeah. Look at the Gollum conversation from Peter Jackson with Two Towers. Thank you. Just two different angles on the same character. Whenever you get a chance, look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:16] She did make some beautiful points about Kaminar and Kelpian culture, which I thought was really beautiful. We learned a lot about this one species in this one episode more than we typically learn about another species in a Star Trek episode in one episode. You know, I mean, I think that that's just indicative of the growth and depth of the storytelling.

[00:23:44] This is, it's actually something that people are paying attention to now, as opposed to having these really, you know, one note, one, you know, one dimensional species, right? Like all Klingons and all Vulcans have the same damn haircut, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, so I'd actually put that in my notes there. But the other thing that she talked about was the Ba'ul, when we see the Ba'ul. Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:14] And the first time I saw the Ba'ul, I thought they were so cool looking, right? Like, I mean, it was just, but then immediately my head like went to like, what was it? Armis? Armis. Armis. Yeah. I was like, yeah. I was like, yeah. I was just like, you know, at first I was like, oh, freaking, I was like, they just like, Armis' little, little bad-ass children on another planet. Yeah.

[00:24:43] Like, Armis got really into ultra marathons or something and just some down a little bit, you know. I just had some little bad-ass kids on another planet and like... Tamiya, 100%. When I watched this and it was like two years after it aired when I was watching it, I thought I'd cracked the Star Trek code. I was like, I'm fine. I finally seen enough Star Trek. I can make these connections, these deep connections. This is the Armis species. This is the species Armis came from. 100%. I'm going to go to Twitter.

[00:25:13] I'm going to share my theory. Oh, very quickly. I was informed. I'm two years behind on this conversation. It's been had. People asked the writers. The writer said no. And I said, okay, I'll just, I'll go. I'll go back to my green shirt corner then. Okay. I guess we can have more than one oily black like species, you know. But if they were to redo the Armis creatures nowadays, it would look exactly like that. I mean, in our defense. Thank you. Of course. Yeah.

[00:25:43] Maybe just ooze a little bit more into puddles a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More polygons. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I really did enjoy about that whole character, and I agree with everything said about the way it looked, but it was still scary, was the voice. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:13] Thank you. Thank you. How do you not know that that's there? I was like, ooh, what's that? Oh, the watch full on. Oh, let's stand here and have a conversation about it for five minutes. Saru, you know what that is. It's because Saru's not afraid anymore. Oh, that's true. He's like, I'm just gonna do this. Like, I honestly think that it has to be something like that, because otherwise it's just a bad choice. But is the transporter tech also going through Bahari?

[00:26:43] You know, I'm like, there was a transporter tech that was beaming them down too. You had to know what's down there in the terrain. There's 4,000 of them. Yeah, they're everywhere. They're everywhere. So watch full on. They've been down directly in front of it. Not even around behind the hut or some shit. I'm sorry, can we cuss on here? Oh, please. Actually, if you could cuss some more, please. You have never been going there long.

[00:27:13] Right? Like Saru. Come on. Now, does the watch full eye pay attention or is that just like a name? But Cameron, I thought you would have loved it. It's like 4,000 little eyes of Saurons. Yeah. It is. I'm just realizing the watch full eye. But my note is that it also acts as the beacon of Gondor. Oh, yeah. The next one lights up and then the next one lights up. They all light up. Yeah.

[00:27:43] But it's bad. See, I look at it as, you know, I've worked a lot of places where there are security cameras, where there's people like, oh, you know, we are dependent on the company for our internet or for whatever. And people are like, oh no, they're watching everything. I'm like, can you imagine how many people it would take to actually constantly monitor all of the activity that's happened? There would be zero. There would be negative unemployment in this world if every security system was as good

[00:28:13] as people believe it is. I'm like, yeah. Right. It's probably got a motion sensor. But even then it's like, well, but Kelpians walk around it. A motion sensor wouldn't even work. I don't know. A transporter signal probably triggered it because, yeah, why would you? Serana does say like, oh, they, it must have seen you or she implies that they don't catch everything that happens. Yeah. Right. But don't transport. I mean, Serana is not thinking straight right now. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:43] And the one Kelpian they're looking for. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think my last note on Kaminar is that it looks like the best half East Coast, half tropical place ever. And like, there are maybe no Trek shows as gorgeous as Discovery when it shoots on location. Yeah. Like, I mean, think about the whole series. Like there's the beach in, at the end of season five, like every planet they're physically

[00:29:12] on in Discovery is beautiful, which I guess means I love Canada. Don't we all? Yeah. We love our collars. So let's go ahead and hear from another one. Here is Grayson. Hey, open Pike night and sci-fi sisters. Thanks for giving me an excuse to rewatch the sound of thunder. I'd forgotten what a pivotal episode this is.

[00:29:38] I mean, not just for the franchise, but for me as a sci-fi fan, it didn't dawn on me until this rewatch how much it connects to the author who made me love sci-fi in the first place. One, Mr. Ray Bradbury. I don't know if it's confirmed, but I feel like this episode had to be inspired by his short story, a sound of thunder. You know, it's the time travel one where the guy goes back in time, accidentally steps on and kills a butterfly.

[00:30:05] And when he gets back to his own time, things have drastically changed. Shows how one small change in the past can ripple through and make dramatic changes in the present. The butterfly in this case, right, would be Saru's threat ganglia. His transformation doesn't change him. In your face, Cameron! It ripples through his entire species. And it's such a powerful way to show how personal evolution can reshape the world around you, right? Be the world you want to be.

[00:30:36] On a less philosophical note, I'd forgotten how amazing the makeup in this episode is. Doug Jones goes all in, not just on his face and his hands, but he's got full body prosthetics on. And it gives Saru so much more presence than the classic human with a bumpy head kind of alien. It really got me thinking about the future of this kind of acting.

[00:30:59] Do you think Star Trek's long tradition of actors in makeup, like Saru, creates a stronger emotional connection compared to fully digital aliens? Or could Trek lean more into digital characters without losing that connection? Like I'm thinking about Yafit on the Orville or even in the Avatar movies. There's humans behind those characters, sometimes even motion capture acting, but do they resonate the same way as Saru?

[00:31:27] What is it about prosthetic aliens that feels so Star Trek to us? Hmm. Wow. I'm always proud to be even in the same book as Grayson, let alone basically on the same page. So Grayson, thank you for that. And- Grayson! And I think you make a great point. I think part of what I love about Star Trek is that, I mean, especially older Star Trek, right? You can see that these are physical models of ships. You can see that the aliens are wearing prosthetics.

[00:31:57] And I'll be honest, that was like my first resistance to Deep Space Nine because I was like, what, they got a CGI ship? What's going on here? And then of course I watched it and I love it. Like, it's a top maybe, it's either the best or second best depending on the day Star Trek series ever. And I really hope we continue to get both. Stop equivocating, you know it's the best. I'm only two seasons in and I know it's the best. Right!

[00:32:24] I am very fickle when it comes to like, what thing do I love the most in this moment? Because the answer is all Star Trek. But I agree with you 100%, Grayson. I hope that we get to keep our prosthetic actors in Star Trek. I'm not opposed to using CGI for the aliens, but like, I mean, this episode is a great example of why you don't need that, right? Like, yeah, just put somebody in a skin tight outfit, cover them in sludge and give them a creepy voice. There's your alien.

[00:32:54] Like, that's a really basic production thing, but it works so incredibly well. And I don't, you know, I haven't seen the Avatar movies, but every time I see a trailer for one, I'm like, that's just Zoe Saldana, but blue. Like, I got nothing against Zoe Saldana, but like, why not put Zoe Saldana in the movie? Like, so I, I don't know where I land on that, but I'm, I'm glad that somebody as a wonderful

[00:33:21] and helpful as yourself has asked that question, Grayson. I think, um, for Star Trek, I think it's more about the character because we get to know these characters and they're in this prosthetic, but we as Star Trek fans go to conventions. Our, the actors are very much a part of our fandom. Um, I think that has a lot to do with it resonates better if they're in prosthetics, because we

[00:33:51] know who those people are. You know, we know the character, we know the actor. Um, usually they're actors who we see at conventions probably for the rest of our lives, um, so I think that when I think about that, I, CGI motion, I don't, I don't, I mean, it probably did, will look good, but I don't know if that's the way Star Trek works, you know, because Star Trek is always about the story and the character.

[00:34:21] So I'm not sure. I, I don't know. I don't, I don't know if it would resonate well with, uh, the way Star Trek works. I mean, we mentioned the Gollum scene. So obviously CGI characters can work their way into our hearts. Those Gollum in our hearts. I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. But that, that is so, but I do think like, that is just top tier. Right. One that's top tier. And I do think motion capture is better than not motion capture a hundred percent.

[00:34:49] I mean, the apes movies are really the, my, my proof point. But that's the same guy who did Gollum. Exactly. Exactly. Andy circus needs to be in more Star Trek. That's what I'm going to get. Thank you. But yeah, I do think if it's a main character we see all the time, like Saru, I would prefer makeup. I would like to see more CGI used to get some really weird aliens in this. And let's get some weird ass aliens. Star Trek. But I'm just thinking like in this episode, we've talked about it when Saru reaches out

[00:35:18] and touches Culber's arm. And then we talked about the meeting between Michael and Serana and the, in her little hand greeting. And that would not have been as effective if it had been CGI. We needed to see that hand caress that human hand. Yeah. That's exactly what I was going to say. Like, I mean, like particularly in our universe and the things that would, you know, the characters

[00:35:40] that we're telling stories about, you lose something of the, I mean, I know humanity, you lose the essence, you lose the soul of, of, of the reason behind the movements. And, you know, when you try to mimic it with, you know, something artificial, it's, it's just simply not the same. And I did see Avatar and only the first one, cause God knows why I would need to see a second one. I swear to God.

[00:36:10] Did you see a movie again? Yeah. You know, like seriously, you're literally giving me the same crap all over again, except for like, it's just like in a different setting, whatever. Anyway, you did mix a little of the abyss into this one. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, but I mean, like I, I did not feel like I came away. Like I remember the first time like going, okay, that was a technological marvel, but

[00:36:33] my emotional response to it was nothing compared to one of the small gestures that you just talked about, you know, which gave me a much larger emotional impact. And, and, and, and, and just a moment as, and I sat through a two and a half hours of a day, a movie and didn't feel that. Well, yeah. Now to be completely fair here, Cameron's favorite movie is the 2007 Beowulf.

[00:37:01] So that may be going to slander him like that. Just keep that in mind. I'm here to slander Cameron. You know, that's so unfair. But that part is not true. I don't think that's anybody's favorite movie. If it's your favorite movie and you're listening, I'm sorry. Go watch. I remember being fine. I do. I want to, I want to jump real quick to season five though, because we talked at, at strike

[00:37:26] long Island with Tarina, the actress who played Tarina about the chin boop on Saru. Yep. How one, I mean, I don't think you'd get that with a CGI character and it wouldn't be as cute at all to, I'm, she said it was improvised and I don't think you would get that those sort of improvisational moments from great actors like Doug Jones. Yeah. Yeah. Characters, characters, storytelling. That's it. And, and with the point we made earlier about how good this season. And I think this episode, it looks fantastic.

[00:37:56] It's a beautiful episode. You can tell the money behind it is there, but the moment when Saru is breaks free in the cell in the Google ship and grabs the drone, I was like, wow, that looked fake. That drone was not there when he reached out to like the rest of this episode looked fantastic. That looked terrible. And then it was like, all right, yeah, I can do it. They were coming very well. And I forgave it. And I forgave it.

[00:38:25] Yeah, exactly. It's like, all right. Woo. I forgot that was there. Was the thing that got me was when he broke the, he broke the, he broke the whole part and then made a radio out of it again, like right in front of the. It's like, is anybody in the bowl? Like, are you listening? Like it was a watchful eye now. He's going to the radio and he's going to. Okay. Nevermind. Running scared at that point.

[00:38:52] I mean, that's what I do love about it. So what I want to ask if you watching it the first time, if you can remember watching the first time, how many people thought that the byul weren't real, that they were like a made up story because they, that is exactly what I thought the first time they specified. They hide behind the technology. We've never seen as soon as the character says we've never seen them. My red flags up like, okay, not real. So I thought the episode actually did a really good job of using the audience being too smart to make them think that.

[00:39:21] And then we learn, no, they're not hiding behind the technology because they're not real. Or I thought maybe like they were the evolved, evolved Kelpians. There were some Kelpians controlling everything. I don't know. It wasn't that it was that they were real and they were scared shitless of these guys and they are literally hiding behind their technology. They force field that guy that's to rue up against the wall. They have the force field between them, everything they can do to like, try to keep themselves safe. So I did. I really appreciate that, especially this watch through how they kind of handled that

[00:39:50] reveal and that aspect of the Ba'ul. Yeah. I was, I remember I wasn't quite as on the level of like, oh, there is no Ba'ul. I was more thinking like, oh, this is a Wizard of Oz thing. It'll turn out that there's a Ba'ul and they call themselves the Ba'ul. And you know, it's like one very technologically advanced person running everything. To be fair, we only see one. Yeah. Right. We do only see one.

[00:40:19] We do get to see a lot of ships, but to be fair, ships can be remote controlled. Right. So I, I'm glad that you brought that up Cameron. Cause I remember thinking like, there's gotta be some other layer of twist coming in here. But if I'm, you know, thinking all the way back, Cameron, I was also on the, oh, this is great because control is clearly going to be the Borg origin and this will clearly be the Armis origin. I was on the same page with you, man.

[00:40:48] Well, luckily you don't have to be super technologically advanced to call into our show. Cause we have even more calls tonight. So here is Michelle. Hey, open Pike night. I'm just catching up on the rewatch for discovery season two. And not only is it great to see Ansemounce Pike and some of the crew at their beginnings, but also I forgot how much I really enjoyed season two of discovery. I am a big Saru fan and Doug Jones is phenomenal.

[00:41:16] One of my favorite scenes in this episode, which is probably my favorite episode of the season is when Saru and Pike go toe to toe. And you can see that Pike has great empathy and is also very commanding as he's trying to explain to Saru why it may not be the best idea that he go on this mission, but also Saru is evolving. And you can see that sometimes that can be a little scary for the crew. Um, and it kind of parallels what Dr.

[00:41:45] Colbert, what he was going through. And I love that parallel. And they didn't always examine the ramifications of boldly going in TOS and TNG, but here in Discovery, they are all about that. And I love it. Um, I also really enjoyed how this is peak Star Trek. The storytelling is fantastic. You have themes of, um, you know, a culture, lording technology over another culture, themes of genocide.

[00:42:13] There's so much here, but ultimately I think the theme is just stay curious, ask questions and try to push through that fear when you're evolving. Right? I love those scenes with Dr. Colbert, who is a little uncomfortable in his new skin after returning from the dead. Um, I, I love how Saru is becoming more assertive and more a new version of himself. So it shows that growth. It's peak Star Trek to me.

[00:42:38] Um, my Crusher connection would basically be about General Order number one and the Prime Directive. I think Beverly Crusher would be on the side of the Kelpians here. I also think that she would be very interested in speaking with Hugh about his experience in exploring that. Um, and finally, shout out to the Sci-Fi Sisters. I met them at Trek Long Island. They were awesome. And I love my Michael Burnham t-shirt. Let's fly. Live long and prosper. Thanks, Michelle. Thank you.

[00:43:09] Uh, yeah, I agree. Crusher would be on the side of the Kelp. Oh, hands down. Yeah. And she, and she would give, uh, Hugh much, much more of a conversational partner. Oh God, yes. Like there, that would be a whole B-plot for the episode, right? Like it wouldn't be a single scene. And I'm really glad that Michelle brought up Saru being more assertive and going toe to toe again. Cameron, you want to talk about Lord of the Rings parallels in this? When Saru is on the bridge and he says, I am Saru, son of Aradar.

[00:43:39] I was like, oh, Cameron's going to lose it. This is going to be his favorite episode all season. Like. I didn't know anybody else caught that. Yeah. Cause I'm a huge Lord of the Rings fan. And every time I hear one of those kind of, um, names, I'm like, what? Are we, are we, are we back on, uh, Lord of the Rings? Are we going to the tower? What's happening? Only because we just, uh, covered, uh, the search for Spock, which you can hear on the

[00:44:07] upcoming greatest Trek pod crawl. Uh, we, I, I, my mind went to McCoy going through his son of when he was talking to the Vulcans. It was, uh, that's, that's where my connection went. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for bringing it back to Lord of the Rings where it belongs. Yeah. You're welcome. I, I, I live to serve and slander. Uh, but I mean, this episode has a lot of parallels to other media, right?

[00:44:32] Like the flower that Saru is raising, Fidalia, that's the password in eyes wide shut, right? That's true. That's true. That's true enough. Close enough. They'll get you in the door. Yeah. They're good looking enough. Yeah. You don't have to get a pronunciation, right? Uh, speaking of action story, there is a great shot when he is sent off the bridge and it follows him from the bridge into the turbo lift and then down and then out into the hallway. Yeah.

[00:45:01] So good. Good. Love that shot. Over the course of like two angry breaths that he's taking like, and it's in such contrast to that spinning camera shot we were talking about earlier. This is where that sort of cinematography works. Yeah. And then you get that paralleled shot later, the same thing with, uh, Serana where she, I think she's on the transporter pad and then she's on camera. It's like the exact same kind of thing. That was a cool shot. Yeah.

[00:45:30] There's some great camera work here. And it just, it makes you wonder like, are they, are they, is they like teaching one of the DPs one day? And then the main guy takes over like, we'll have to ask on time one day. It's happened. On a TV set. The guy twisted his ankle. He's like, I can't, I can't walk sideways right now. I just gotta hold the camera normal. Sorry guys. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many Dutch angles though. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:57] And like, and on top of that, I mean, we've mentioned it and I have mentioned it, you know, frequently on our rewatch here, but like the visual effects work in this show is also mostly very good. Like, yes, you have the kind of Iron Man level drones going on, but you also see the holograms reflected in Michael and Tilly's eyes when you're reviewing the sphere data. I'm like, it's gorgeous.

[00:46:24] I could look at this forever and it buys it so much leeway for those couple of moments where it kind of falls down. I think. Yeah. Oh yeah. And, and Jesse, I know, I know you're not a fan of Ash Tyler, but I do like, you know, we have Saru and Pike facing off in this episode. I really liked the final conversation between Tyler and Pike, the, the, you know, you're not my dad. Also, you didn't fight in the war, dad. Yeah. I mean, like, just the dig at him. Like, yeah, you know what?

[00:46:54] I think you were in that dig. Yeah. Can we have one character just clock Ash Tyler across the jaw? Like just one, I would be so happy. And you know what? You're right, John, it's a good scene. And you know why? Because Ash Tyler eats alone. Like he should just go back and watch the scene where they throw his severed head in the volcano. Sabrina, they talking about your boy. Come on now. They're talking about my, but whoa, no, I'd love to hear the opposite side of it. There's something about him that just bugs me.

[00:47:22] So I'm completely open to hearing some positivity. That's all right. I'll take him any kind of way. That is my guy right there. My guy. Like, even the Klingon way. That he's just the eye candy. That's all. Oh, yeah. But no, but that that scene is really good because it was it was legit because Ash, when he said that he said some of us are still torn apart because if anybody went the hard way in that war, it was Ash.

[00:47:51] I could tell me whatever you want to tell me. Yeah. But there wasn't anybody that went through the crap like he did. Right? Come on now. And we know Pike was, you know, he was, he was way off someplace else. He wasn't even there. So, yeah, I did like that scene. Yeah. I can, I can hear Melanie getting angry. So let me jump in and say Pike was ordered away from the war. It's not that he chose to sit in. Right. He wasn't a deserter or something. You know? Right.

[00:48:18] But, but it is, it's a fair point from Tyler, which is probably the first time I've ever said that. Wow. Wow. There was one thing about that scene also just to go back. And it was, you know, cause when Pike pushed Ash back about the way he wanted to go towards the Bayou, he came all the way around at the, at the end to justify to him. Yeah. You know what? We do need to maybe look at this again. Cause you know, he, he had slapped him back, but now he was giving him his, his minute to

[00:48:47] sit there and talk to me about this. So it was like interesting that he, you know, he came back to Ash like, all right, here's, here's what happened. Here's what we got to do. Like, yeah, give me your take on it. And then, you know, whatever, whatever. But I thought that that was really interesting that they, they, they closed it, that conversation about what was section 31 take on this? What do you guys think? And, uh, that's why he's, that's why he's Captain Pike, man. That's the man too. I'm telling you.

[00:49:17] Yeah. I do want to go back to, uh, to ruin his sister. We talked a bit about the relationship, but I, I really love the moment where she reveals like that. She knew what happened to him. And we get that. This is the reverse X files relationship where she saw her brother get abducted and it's completely fine with it. Right. Though it does make me want the, uh, the Serana as paranormal investigator spinoff series. Now, like what she was doing down there in the meantime, digging into all those strange

[00:49:47] cases that the watchful eye was missing. Absolutely. She was great though. That was a great character. Seriously. And, and like Jesse mentioned, you know, we've talked to how good she is in her makeup. Like the, the shot where her threat ganglia come out even highlights more how different Saru, how changed he is from this whole thing. Yeah. It's beautifully acted and beautifully performed by both of them just without highlighting it, just saying, yep, here's before here's after here's what it is.

[00:50:17] And it isn't fearlessness. It's just, I like, what am I supposed to do now? I should like, usually I'm afraid when something like this happens and now I don't feel that. So what do I feel? And yeah. And they do a great job of illustrating that difference without making Serana like meek. Like she has just as much confidence in her worldview as Saru does because she's lived it. Right.

[00:50:41] So I, I mean, it really is a very impressive balancing act that they conduct with these two characters. And yeah, I agree. We need more Serana. And no, the X-Files theme is not my song pick. I think that like, you know, what you were just saying about, um, uh, about the, the juxtaposition

[00:51:02] of the, the, the threat glint ganglia versus Saru's like post Vahari, you know, response is, you know, a, a beautiful example of this being just a beautifully told story. You know, um, and one of my, it's a reason why it sits pretty high in my discovery episodes is because like the, the storytelling here, like they're, they are showing. And not telling. Yeah.

[00:51:31] You know, and, and they do that. This episode is really exemplary for that. There were many, many discovery episodes where I had to sit through people telling me what I'm supposed to be witnessing. And instead of just the actors acting the damn thing, like all this time you said the speech, we could have just acted this scene. And instead, okay. And instead, okay. Anyway, I agree. No, it's funny. You pick the best actors for a reason, let them out. Yeah.

[00:52:01] Like, I mean, so like, that's another reason why I absolutely adore this, this, this episode. Yeah. And in, and in an episode full of parallels, I just, I don't want to get past this without mentioning it. But the scene where, uh, Serana tells Saru to go back to discovery is such a great parallel to Michael yelling at Spock. Mm.

[00:52:26] And it's like, you don't need to actually intercut the scene where she's yelling at Spock and calling him a half breed. Like you can just feel it because now Michael has been talking with Saru about her brother and he has told her, like, I feel like you've kind of replaced what I lost with my sister. And then he's confronted with that. And it's like, it's not all sunshine and rainbows. She's like, you should not have come back. You have put all of us in danger. This could be very bad for everybody.

[00:52:55] Like, and the way she phrases that your face is beautiful to me, but I worry about what it could mean. I'm like on the verge of tears watching this episode. And it's two aliens, like very, very happy with this entire episode. That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're very happy with all the callers. So let's hear from another one. Here is Katie. Welp, that nearly went to hell in a hand basket. Hey, it's Katie.

[00:53:23] One of the first things Ash Tyler says this episode is how the red angel might be dangerous because it could be causing time incursions. And well, Tyler, I've got some bad news for you about what Kirk's going to be up to in a few years. That red angel entry at the end of the episode, though, was cool as shit. Yes. So for all the romance jokes that I will make, non-romantic relationships are actually my bread and butter.

[00:53:52] Uh, wait, I can't eat bread. Cottage cheese and yogurt? Moving on. It hadn't occurred to me that Saru and Hugh had anything in common until he said it. But now I am invested. Saru and Michael's entire everything is so interesting to me. I'm not sure how well I bought them figuring their shit out last season, but I don't care. Give me.

[00:54:18] And please tell me that someone goes to talk to Saru's sister after everything that goes down in the finale. Cause, man, those two are just... I need more sibling relationships like that in media and she deserves to have some idea what happened to him. Finally, I gotta talk costumes a moment because they really, really jumped out at me in this episode.

[00:54:41] First, I need Starfleet loungewear or whatever it is Michael's wearing like yesterday. Yep. Second, I just noticed that you get extra Chinese on your uniform as captain. And then, of course, you get even more Chinese as Admiral. I don't know. That was just kind of fun. And third, those poor, poor medics wearing white. They're replicating new uniforms on the daily.

[00:55:11] I'm sure of it. Love the badges though. All right. That's all I got. Okay. Thanks. Bye. Okay. I didn't know what she said. She said Chinese. I thought she said Chinese. Yeah, that's what I did too. I was sitting here perplexed. I was like, wait, what? It's Chinese. Wait. Oh, you didn't notice that? Chinese. Okay. All the uniforms are made in China. Yeah. Probably. But to that point about the Red Angel entrance, I mean, yes.

[00:55:42] Yeah. Like it is a better entrance than 95% of any Marvel hero ever. And you cannot change my mind on that. Like it came in like a wrecking ball. Like I was, I was, I completely forgot. That's how this episode ended. And then it shows those little, it's like skipping a stone across the pond of time and reality. And I was like, oh, I'm so here for this. Yeah. I thought those were the photon torpedoes at first.

[00:56:12] I was like, what's happening? What are they shooting? Are they shooting the base that they're in? What's all right. Right. Red Angel. Okay. All right. No, it was a moment. That was one of those moments during the season that really built up the anticipation of, of for the Red Angel. What the Red Angel. I think this was like one of the first moments in the season that we got a really clear, clear view of the Red Angel. Right. Yep. And, and it was so worth the payoff. I mean, like that came, but it was just like, oh my God. What? Yeah. It was a good one.

[00:56:41] The moment I loved. And Katie, I hope that a vet certification is going well for you. Keeping you honest. Yep. Is back up on the ship where they're like talking about some external force or something caused the, the power disruption and Pike and Michael give each other some red angel eyes and just kind of look at each other knowingly as a, as a good moment. Also not my song pick. Perhaps before the season is over.

[00:57:10] Speaking of keeping honest, who was it Cameron Jesse that picked episode six for Spock to show up? I can't remember. I think it was Cameron because I want to be right. Okay. All right. I, yeah. I mean, that was at my last note. John was like, still no Spock. Still no Spock. Six episodes into the season about Spock. One more episode. We all, we all were saying that like, no Spock. Every time it ended, no Spock. Okay.

[00:57:39] Every time, no Spock. Okay. But yeah, I mean, just there's, there's nothing about this episode except maybe the drones, like John was saying, that I don't love. Like, I love that they have this crazy underwater citadel that they can just bring up whenever they want. Like you guys, if anybody does not need to construct additional pylons, it's the bot rule. Yeah.

[00:58:08] That just reference just made me like the stuff that more. Seriously. That was a good one. I do want to talk about the other thing I don't love about this episode. I want to give everyone here a chance to, to make me love this episode as much as you all do. But I think Platty's call might lead into it a little bit. So I'm going to hold off until then. All right. Are we ready for our last call? I think so. Let's hear from the biggest nerd yet. I know about some of his conversation here. All right. Here's Platty. Hey, open Pike Knight. This is Platty M3 calling in with my hits, shits and giggles.

[00:58:38] All right. Starting with the hits. I know this happens a lot, but I really like camera angles being all over the place in this one. Early on, it was just spinning around and around and around. I like there's one angle from the ground on the bridge looking up at Pike and Saru. Speaking of Saru, it's pretty fun that he gets very confrontational and becomes don't give a shit Saru here. Speaking of shit, the shits. Why didn't they raise the shields when they went to red alert? That seems like kind of reckless. They're charging up the phasers, but they don't raise shields. How do we know they don't raise shields? Well, Saru just beamed down. They can't beam down through the shields.

[00:59:07] Oh, and this was filmed way before we used to use numbers correctly in strange new worlds. Like when they talked about tens of billions of people dying in the Klingon wars. I don't know why, but I got completely fixated on the screen where they were talking about the number of Kelpians being alive using the sphere data. At one point there was zero unevolved Kelpians existing. How did that happen? I thought they had to go through their thing to become evolved. Like how were there ever a time when there was zero?

[00:59:33] Also, I had to go because there was another point that where there was like under like 30 Kelpians alive on the entire planet or something. And I had to like look up like how many people do you need to have alive to have enough genetic diversity not to just like die out as a race. And well, surprise, the number is not 30. So, hey, you know, maybe you should have looked that up. All right. Now for some giggles. Did anybody else think that that was Armus rising up out of the water when Saru got captured? Yes. He is so lucky. He just didn't get yard. That's Platty M3. Have a good time talking to Sci-Fi sisters.

[01:00:03] I'm out. Hey, Platty. Well, there is a time when there's zero evolved Kelpians and that's in this episode at the end of this episode. So maybe this has all happened before the more things change. Now, I don't know if I should claim the title as resident nerd on open pike night, but I think I have a fix for you, Platty. Okay.

[01:00:30] They're specifically talking about life signs on the planet and the graphic shows everybody leaving the planet. Like they're going to space for whatever reason. There's some kind of cataclysm on the planet, whatever it is. So it's possible that that data is people physically on the planet could be zero from any of those three groups. Right.

[01:00:54] Because then it shows all those red dots descend back onto the planet while she says then they turned around and did the same thing to them. So like they went to space, waited out this cataclysm and then went back to the planet and instituted this new, you know, mythology of like, oh yeah, actually you're supposed to die. And that's a good thing.

[01:01:15] So I think, I think it means that there were not those people on the surface of the planet, not that there were none of them left, which could apply to all of the numbers, right? Like there weren't 30 of them total. There were 30 on the planet physically. I did not get the idea that they were leaving the planet at all. I think you're making that up. That's what the graphic shows. It's a planet. And then it shows dots leaving the planet and then going back to the planet. I think that's just the graphic throbbing and the dots were pointing at the planet.

[01:01:45] They had little, little pointers coming from the dots. Very few people understand throbbing better than you do. So what is that supposed to represent visually when it comes to data? It's the equivalent of spinning the camera around the characters. I think it's what I said. Also, Platty, I don't know if I've ever heard anybody use yar as a verb. Well done. Yeah, that was brilliant, by the way. Absolutely. That was so good. And I think I'm going to steal it.

[01:02:15] Yeah. Please do. Please. Am I the only one here who's team by you? Yes. Yes. I mean, to me, that's the turning point of the episode when they go, oh, look, the oppressors were once the oppressed. And yes, now they are the oppressors. But there is a story here about the Biowool 2000 years ago where they were on their heels and they were being attacked by these savage Kelpians intent on their destruction.

[01:02:44] But they were able to use their brains over brawn. They were not strong like the Kelpians. They were not fast like the Kelpians. They did not have biological spike missiles shooting out of their necks like the Kelpians, but they were smart. And they used technology, which Star Trek has taught us is great. And they used it to overcome it. And they could have wiped the Kelpians from the planet, but they chose not to. They instilled a system that kept them alive and kept everyone on the planet safe. Now, did they go too far? Safe? Safe.

[01:03:13] I mean, like, who's safe? Not everyone. It kept them safe. They had a... No. They were attacked first. They were attacked. They were almost wiped off. But I understand what you're saying. You're saying that they just took enough to keep that species alive. They culled them. Didn't, you know... When you're not homicidal maniacs, we'll keep you around. That's okay. We'll keep you around to act as our chattel. Right. And, you know, there were...

[01:03:42] Okay, so this is the point, the plot point that actually made this a much deeper, richer story, right? Yes. You know, I mean, and so you're absolutely right to call that out, you know, because it... It is the thing that turns the whole thing on its head. Because we've seen this in human history, right? We've seen people who were the oppressed who then claimed their freedom, but then turn right around and act just like they're oppressors or worse, you know?

[01:04:11] And, you know... Usually worse. Usually worse, right? Because it's a reaction to all the trauma that you've absorbed from the people before, right? Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, this is... But I still don't believe... I'm still not on their side, though. I'm not on their side, but I do feel like... I can't be on their side. I feel like the episode kind of raised this really compelling, like, history, like, oh, it's not what we thought. It's more complex. Yeah. Right. And then the language of the episode was like, eh, but they're still evil, so we're going to treat them as evil from this point on.

[01:04:41] And then they started acting like enslavers. Right. So, yes. Like, they were still evil. Like, they did not learn from... They didn't take years to evoke, like, oh, okay, maybe there was a moment in time where we reacted this way, but then we enlightened ourselves and we had some abolitionists, you know? There were some Kelpian abolitionists, some Ba'ul abolitionists who were working on the side, you know, being like, yo, I think we're treating these people wrong.

[01:05:07] Like, no, at no point was this addressed to say that there's been advancement in this thought. It was just complete, total, utter domination. So now you bring up a point that I thought about when I was watching this episode, because I couldn't help but equate what the Kelpians were going through to history of Black Americans, you know, or other members of the African diaspora.

[01:05:32] And when the Ba'ul were so terrified of one of the Kelpians actually knowing who they are, which is a massive threat. Like, they say that one of the most dangerous weapons in this country is an educated Black person, right? Because what is the first thing that colonizers and enslavers do? The first thing that they do is they take away your language and your access to knowledge, right?

[01:06:01] So when you, and you're, and so they, and they, they change your language, your, your religion, and your access to knowledge of who you were. So when you don't know who you are, you do not know your true power, you know? And that's exactly what happened to them. That's exactly what they say. That's exactly what happened to them. You don't know who you are. Yeah. Well, and I think to your point though, Cameron, the reason the episode gives us that backstory is to set up that this is untenable.

[01:06:29] And for there to be a future for this planet, there's going to have to be cooperation. There's going to have to be mutual respect. And there's going to have to be a changing of the status quo. Yeah. Which is, which is why they go as far as they do to change this whole race of Kelpiens to being able to defend themselves. So that's actually my issue with the episode is I, why do they without consent forcibly force every Kelpien on this planet to go through Uber puberty, Uber tea?

[01:06:59] They, they force them to biologically change. And I do not feel like the stakes were at, at that point that the stakes were necessary for that. I mean, were they forcing them though? Or did they give them the choice? Not well. They forced them to be around. Just give me a warning that it's going to happen. There are some dead Kelpiens. Sound of alarm. You're up like rock climbing and that happens. You're not around anymore. It's just, they don't know anything about this yet. So Ru's been around for two weeks.

[01:07:27] They don't know that they're not all going to turn sterile and they're actually genociding this race right now by forcing them to go through their puberty. Like it, it was a bit much for me to swallow. Agreed. That part of it is hand wavy, right? But it's in service to the story point of like, the enterprise was on a time. It's sledgehammer. It's sledgehammer. Sure. This wasn't about that planet. This was about the enterprise, you know, completing their mission and, you know, just has to be done.

[01:07:57] At that point they knew everything. They had the knowledge and it felt like that was the point to be like, okay, let's go maybe knock a little harder on the Bible store and like figure this out. But instead they just force evolve a population. Right. And I'm not saying that the execution isn't ham fisted, but I will, I will say that it's meant to, I mean, and I know, you know, but it's meant to be in service of Saru's personal journey, right? Like he is trying to bring what he's learned back to his people.

[01:08:26] And there's 14 episodes in the season and they got to end this episode in the next five minutes. I mean, look, yeah, the climax is not going to be a sit down discussion with the Bayou. Right. Yeah. But wasn't the, but didn't the Bayou said they were going to kill him? I mean, there was like, there was something that had to be done right away. They were going to kill him. It might not have been this, but something. For me, the stakes were not there yet. They were out to go. They were like, listen, we can't have them go through this because otherwise, you know. Go ahead. Yeah. They were going to kill everybody on the planet.

[01:08:55] Not yet. Right. Exactly. It was when they all started evolving is when they pulled out the big guns. They were just, I mean, what, what, what was the justification for doing it? Because now the, the, the Baoul justification was, well, now they can fight back. So we got to wipe them out. But the justification for the forcing the evolution. So they, so they would know that this was an evolution. Yeah. That, that they would know that they're, you know. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I don't know.

[01:09:24] Well, get rid of the fear, you know, because remember they were living with this fear. We forget that this fear was something they lived with. And you want to make sure that these people knew that they were, they had strength. Just like Tamiya said, you, they, they needed to know their history. And unfortunately this was the only way it was going to happen. Um, within the, in that time that they need, they needed everybody to go through this. So they knew this is something we shared. This is our history.

[01:09:54] And we are not, you know, we're not the enslaved, uh, Kelpians that these people want us to believe we are. Yeah. So that's how I saw it. It's like, this has to be done. Agreed. And this is, you know, and to, to your point, um, Cameron, I mean, the, to be on the team, the team to be on was the Kelpians. Yeah. Because they actually went through this, knew what, then they all knew what was going to happen.

[01:10:20] But then they decided that they weren't going to go back to the way they were. They were going to work together with the Bayul and get this planet, you know, on even keel. Everybody was going to work together. Do we know that? So... Is that what happened? Well... We learned that the Kelpians are still around in 200 years. They don't mention the Bayul in seasons three, four, or five. Yeah. Well, the next season we find out that it worked out. Do we? Do they mention that the Bayul are still alive? Yes.

[01:10:49] At the end of season two... Because they're there. Mm-hmm. Looking forward, both the Kelpians and the Bayul show up to help with the final battle, and it's kind of a unified fleet sort of thing. Ah, okay. But 200 years in the future... Which is looking... Do they... Because I already remembered this, they don't mention the Bayul. Yes. So, in the last episode, they're using Bayul fighter. Oh! Oh, of the season. Of the season. And Kelpian... Yes. End of the season. I don't think they go back to Kaminar in future seasons, but... They talk about it, though. Saru does. They do.

[01:11:18] They do. We see Saru as the ambassador, as the elder. They talk a lot about the Kelpians. They don't mention the Bayul. Yes, the Bayul is there. Are they... If you go back... Okay. Being the ambassador to help the transition. Okay. Which is the work that his sister had been doing. And to your point about the forced evolution, like, is it maybe not Pike's call to make? Sure. Sure.

[01:11:44] But Saru encourages it, and it's probably meant to be... Well, it's probably meant to be a story metaphor for like... Look, sometimes change happens in a painful way when you don't expect it, but it's necessary. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Look, Kam's a big Fallout fan, so when he hears the words forced evolution, he thinks, where's my super mutants at, man? We're the super mutants. Come on. I'm just saying, it's not the Bayul's fault that they look and sound like nightmare fuel, okay? I mean, if you look and sound like that too...

[01:12:14] Yeah. I was gonna be like, but Kam, they're slimy. They are very slimy. Yeah. But their actions are absolutely their fault, so I think it's fair. It's a good episode. Yeah. It's a good episode. Yeah. There's a lot to like about it. Completely agree. Mm-hmm. Well, and I think that's great that it's... I think a great episode is the one that you have to talk about all the time. 100%. You know? And I mean, when I first watched season two, I didn't love it as much as I love it now.

[01:12:44] Mm-hmm. You know, I've watched this over and over again, and I got to learn... I love it now more than when I watched it the first time. You know? It's just so much that you... I used to tell people to listen to Discovery instead of watching it, because Discovery is distracting. Mm-hmm. You know, like you said, it's beautiful. There's camera movements. Yes. But if you listen to it, the dialogue is wonderful. Mm-hmm. And you find out so much more about the characters when you're listening. That's a good perspective.

[01:13:14] It's a very good... especially the first two seasons, I think they're really good if you just kind of listen to them. There's a lot of dialogue. You can hear what people are saying in the background, too. They do a very good audio job in Discovery that I think people don't get. But yeah, I definitely love Discovery a lot more now than I did on the first run. Yeah, I'm enjoying this watch more than I did the first time as well. Yeah, for sure. Well, we have reached that point. Ooh.

[01:13:43] We have a lot of song picks this week, and... It's gonna be a rave up in here. Speaking of listening to Discovery... All right, which of the Sci-Fi Sisters wants to start? Go ahead, Sabrina. Did you pick a song? My song for this episode is... Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes! Ch-ch-ch-changes! Don't wanna be a richer man!

[01:14:12] Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes! Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes! Make a change! Ch-ch-ch-changes! Beautiful. My Bowie loving heart loves that. Fantastic. Yeah. Cam, how about you? Sure, yeah. I had mentioned earlier that I think this is the least amount of thought I'd put into one yet, because I finished watching the episode, I went to go, like, clean up the kitchen,

[01:14:41] and I turned on my Pandora, and the first song that came on was The Church, I think most known for Under the Milky Way, but this might be their second most well-known song, Reptile, came on. Oh my God. Just immediately, I was like, the reptile descriptions are kind of matching the Bible a little bit, and then the first few lines are Too dangerous to keep, too feeble to let go.

[01:15:11] Too dangerous to keep, too feeble to let go, sounding kind of like the dichotomy of the Kelpians, and you want to bite the hand, should have stopped this long ago. And the whole episode is about a toxic relationship, a toxic, you know, codependent relationship. And then at the end, the song dropped some metaphors to the tree of knowledge, and Eden, and Eve, and the forbidden fruit imagery. So, you know, knowledge being this forbidden fruit, and the quote they say at the end, that knowledge is painful.

[01:15:39] And I was like, oh, well shit, it's an easy pick now, the song, the sound of it, the themes, 100%, the church's reptile. Nice. Excellent. Damn, I didn't go that deep. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes I Google the lyrics and it gets lucky. You didn't need to. That was perfect. Oh my goodness. Damia, what do you got? Well, like I was saying before, I had three.

[01:16:06] So, because my brain sort of popcorned, because at first, okay, the very first one that popped into my head was, I will survive by Gloria Gaynor. Mm-hmm. Just because of the first lines, you know, at first I was afraid, I was petrified, and I just had fun with that. Nice. And then the next one was Nina Simone, because I'm feeling good, right? Yeah.

[01:16:34] And I felt like such a song of triumph and of coming out and like, you know, owning your strength. And so, and I really felt that for Saru and the Kelpians. And then the last one that I thought about, that it made me think about, and these like all, honestly, all of these are like bop, bop, bop, bop. It's not like I sat here and like did deep dives into the music for it.

[01:17:00] But I mean, the last one that I thought of was Redemption Song by Bob Marley was, I think, for the line, emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds. Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds. Have no fear for atomic energy, because none of them can stop to tell.

[01:17:27] And I thought that that was really appropriate for those there Kelpians. Mm-hmm. Fantastic pick. Wow. I love it. Jesse, what do you got? Okay. So I struggled here a little bit because I've been doing a thing, listeners, you know, I'm trying to keep my tracks mostly heavier, a bit of a metal head. I'm trying to find the uplifting rock sounds, you know, that I think really fit with discovery

[01:17:57] for me because Michael Burnham is metal. Klingons are metal. Like, it is just badass all the way through. Um, but I kept going back to an Ellie Goulding song for this episode. And don't worry, there is a rock cover of it that I will tell you about. Um, but with lyrics like, I had a heart then, but the queen has been overthrown. You show the lights that stop me turned to stone. You shine it when I'm alone. I'm dreaming when they're gone.

[01:18:26] They're calling me home. My brother and my sister slept in an unlocked place. The only time I feel safe. Like this to me is lights by Ellie Goulding.

[01:18:56] And the rock cover is by rain Paris. Highly recommend you check it out. It gives the song just that extra little kick that pushes it into the discovery metal category. Jesse, I've actually heard of that song. Congratulations. I was gonna say, I love Jesse's picks because I get to discover new music every time. First, there's a first time for everything. All right, Yvette, how about you? I love that. Um, I didn't really have one until now.

[01:19:22] Um, I was, for some reason, the Prince, um, song Thunder. It keeps coming to life because it goes thunder all through the night. Gonna see Jesus in the early light. This episode is a lot about rebirth.

[01:19:51] So, you know, I, for some reason that just popped in my head just now. Um, when I thought about the songs, I was like, the only songs that really resonate with me, but it's episode or gospel song. Um, cause you know, every, cause I, I actually, when I was thinking about this, I thought a lot about Hugh, um, in this episode. He resonated with me, I think more than, and like I said, every time, you know, I've watched it a lot.

[01:20:20] So as I watch it now, I kind of go back and look at Hugh and it's, it's heartbreaking what he's going through, you know? And I think he's, he's got this little part. It gets more later, but this, um, watching him go through what he's going through is very heartbreaking. And he is new. He is brand new. There's no one else like him. And that just gave me that Christian, uh, gospel feel.

[01:20:47] I was like, huh, this is definitely give me a little, and there's so many gospel records that could, gospel songs that could record. Look how old I am. Uh, gospel songs that could actually, uh, be good with this. So, you know, check out Kirk Franklin. Mm-hmm . He'll give you a whole bunch of rebirth and resurrection type stuff if you're into that, which I am. Fantastic. Appreciate it. Now. All right, John. I was thinking of the song by muse.

[01:21:15] I know I've used muse before a song called survival from the second law lyrics. Like, you know, yes, I am prepared to stay alive. I won't give in because I choose to thrive, but it's kind of more of a fight song. It's a, it's a really, I mean, they're the, they talk about vengeance and stuff in there. That's like, yeah, it's not quite the right tone, but I'm so glad to me. I mentioned it because obviously I will survive is the song. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:21:45] But then I spent so many nights thinking how you did me wrong. And I was wrong. And I learned how to get. And now you're back from outer space. Right. I mean, this is obviously the song written for this episode is absolutely Gloria Gaynor. I will survive.

[01:22:15] Shout out to Gloria Gaynor. True. It's perfect. Glad you were right there with me, buddy. Oh, well, thank you very much to the sci-fi sisters for joining us tonight. Talking episode six discovery season two, the sound of thunder. Where can everybody find your podcast if they haven't heard you before? And if you haven't heard them before, go check them out.

[01:22:45] You can find us on the Trek Geeks network podcasting. We're proud members of Trek Geeks network. You can find us on any place you get. You prefer to get podcasts, your podcasts. You can listen to us. So you can watch us on our YouTube channel, sci-fi sisters, Inc. And sci-fi sisters is spelled S Y F Y S I S T A S T A S.

[01:23:15] Fantastic. And Jesse, we had a lot of great callers tonight. How can folks call in if they want to lend their voice to open bike night? It's so easy, John. I'm glad that you asked. All you have to do is go to open pike.com. There's a little pop up there that says record your voice and you can record with nothing but a phone. You don't need a fancy setup, but of course, if you'd like to use a microphone and record an MP3 and send it into us that way, you can email those to open pike at gmail.com.

[01:23:45] And Cam, when you're not on the open bike night stage, where else can folks hear you? I am finally finishing up Star Trek, the next generation. There's only two episodes of the next generation. I have never seen at this point. So come over, check us out over on green shirt and newbie strike to the TNG where we're also covering the best Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Now also in our Deep Space Nine minute. And at this point, what you, the Deep Space Nine full length episode for the season should be coming out right about now. We'll have just dropped.

[01:24:15] I believe we did one full episode this season on crossover. So very exciting talking mirror universe over there. Some discovery talk there as well. Yeah. Well, it's been a long night and the open pike night crew has to go prepare to forcibly evolve to hopefully someday talking about the show that we came here to talk about Star Trek Strange New Worlds. But until then, be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here.

[01:24:44] You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here.