Disco Inferno 10 - “The Red Angel”

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello, hello. Welcome to Open Pike Night and our Star Trek Discovery Series Disco Inferno. We are here tonight to discuss Season 2 Episode 10 of Disco, The Red Angel.

[00:00:36] And I'm joined by my host of course, the man who would absolutely stick himself in a freezer for as long as it took to save himself, Jesse Bailey. Anybody else run hot? I'm one of those people that runs hot and I feel like it's easier to warm up than it is to cool down. So I've always got windows open, the AC on. My wife hates it. And the man who is thinking about flying back to Anchorage to hop up on top of that volcano so he has to save himself, Cameron Harrison.

[00:01:06] Did we watch the same episode? Did I watch the right episode? The Red Angel? Yeah. Yeah. There's no volcano in this episode. I don't remember volcanoes or freezers. No, you have to put yourself in danger to save yourself. Oh, well. We're dumb, John. Sorry. Yeah. Now, welcome to what it's like when you get hit with a thing like that and you're like, what? I'm ready for some DEFCON level fun. That's my response. Oh, yeah. Okay.

[00:01:35] And tonight you might have just heard her. We have a special guest all the way from the Green Shirt Podcast. We have the woman who would, well, she's a woman in today's society, so it's basically like she already has to save herself anyway. Please welcome Bobby Blue to the Open Pike Night stage. Hello, everyone. I hope I don't offend you. And if I do, I hope it's in the right way. And if I don't, please reach out and I will make amends. No. Well, I mean, Bobby, don't worry. The last person to sit in that guest chair was Jonathan Frakes, so no pressure to do good.

[00:02:06] I'm never leaping this guest chair. If it was Jonathan Frakes, but I mean, even like virtually, I'll take it. Still counts. There you go. Counts. Yep. Ass to ass. And now Jonathan Frakes is done listening to Open Pike Night forever. Oh, no. No, Jonathan. He's a big fan of Requiem for a Dream, I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:33] Well, tonight we are talking about the Red Angel, which is sure got a lot of talking, so I guess we better get to our talking about it. And man, we start with a funeral scene. And a lot of talking at it. I specifically, like, I don't mean this to sound away, Cameron, but I was kind of watching this episode at you, if that makes sense. So like some of my notes are, is this good enough for you, Cam? Do you like this?

[00:03:00] But the first one that I have is, would you cut and paste the beginning of this episode onto the end of the last episode if you could? Do you think that would help the last episode? Yes. I don't know if it would help. Cam. You're totally good. Sorry. I don't know if it would help the last episode. No, because the last episode ended good. It might help this episode, though. It definitely felt a little weird at the front of this episode. It felt like we were wrapping up. Okay.

[00:03:28] It was one of those, like, I don't know how to write stories. So I was like, would this help? And I figured I'd ask. But I do have a very small nerdy question here, which you guys know me. I'm going to bring more than one of those. Does Arium only have one name? Because the display during her autopsy says Lieutenant Commander Arium. Like, is that her whole name? Maybe she adopted it.

[00:03:54] You know, when she had to go through the reconstruction, she decided to change whatever her name was. Oh. Like, Cher. Yeah, she was a pop singer. Like, Cher, without the plastic surgery, you have to just choose one name. Yeah. Just joking. I like that, though. I mean, I like that she kind of did that. But you're right. Yeah. Like, why don't they use her? I don't use her human name. Is that my name, like, dead naming? No, I think. I mean, yeah, basically. Well, I think it's a good parallel, Bobby, because Kayla says,

[00:04:23] she helped me realize that I wasn't, you know, broken or whatever. She said, I'm new. So I could absolutely see where somebody who felt new would choose a new name for themselves and maybe even a singular one. Which is even more impactful when that episode comes, when we find out what the fuck happened to Detmer beyond she got hurt off screen. Oh, wait. Yeah. One of those things they forgot to ever tell us about. I think it's fine.

[00:04:52] You want some mystery in your show. You want some mystery in your characters. And what's more important for Detmer, obviously, is her relationship with Elwo. Like, that's what we're all here for. Yeah. One line. They could have said something. Yeah. Speaking of mysteries and characters, I just imagine that Culber is there like, was my funeral this good? Did I get as many and as good of soliloquies as her? I barely knew who she was.

[00:05:20] They better have given me a big funeral. Did they give Culber a funeral at all? Did they? I don't remember it. I don't know. There was a war on, Cameron. They were busy. They were in the mirror universe or something. That's true. And to your point, Pike was not captain when that happened. That's true. So Lorca probably cares less for the ceremony of things like that. That's true. That's true. I was definitely thinking of Hemerst's funeral, though, watching this.

[00:05:50] It did feel very reminiscent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It made me think, man, there's another version of this scene where Pike gives his speech, his rousing speech. You know, we've seen Kirk do it for Spock. We've seen captains give speeches at funerals before. And then the pallbearers start to step forward. And then the next person speaks up. They're like, oh, okay. Then I finish it. They just keep, oh, oh, oh. Is everybody done now? Or like the ensign waiting to push the button to eject the thing.

[00:06:20] Like, oh, okay. Oh, man. I'll stand here and wait. Like, there's an unwritten season six of Lower Decks where an ensign accidentally fires the funeral tube before somebody's done with their you googly. Like, what? They told me. The captain speaks. Then you launch the torpedo slowly. They said. Oh, man. Of all the souls I've known, hers was the most. Oh, that's a pause. Go. Whoa, what? There she goes, everybody. He's supposed to do it slow. Not just like a real torpedo.

[00:06:51] Hey, at least in this episode, they give tribute to a dead member. Yes. Which, as you know, if you've listened to Green Shirt, I have a big issue with how TNG does not do enough for projected or possible and also dead members. So members is probably the wrong word to use in this phrase. Crew members. Crew members. Yes. Yeah.

[00:07:17] So I liked that it actually gave tribute to somebody that Discovery didn't quite make me attached to. So I don't know about that part. Like, I was like, wow, this is like the longest funeral scene I've ever seen. But somebody was like, I don't know that much about them. Yeah. My last note for that is if it'd be funny if the casket had slowly gone over and bonked into the Section 31 ship. What was that? And it decloaks like. Yeah.

[00:07:46] I wonder, though, this may be the longest funeral scene since Tasha Yar. Like. It's pretty long. Yeah. I mean, it is long. And it's disrespectful, I think, to let Ash Tyler be there at all. But the thing that I don't like specifically is that Michael is literally eulogizing her friend. And she says, we get to reach for each other. And he gives this look like, oh, is that is that a signal to me? Like, should I go over there?

[00:08:15] It's like, dude, stop thinking about yourself. This is a funeral. I hate you so much, Ash Tyler. Oh, you do? Oh, my God. I hate him, Bobby. Like. It was an odd choice that they cut from Arium to him in there during the eulogy, too. I'm like, really? Yeah. Like, what is this? It feels like they're trying to go see he's not a bad guy. And I'm like, it's arguably still his fault that she is dead in a lot of ways.

[00:08:41] And my last note on this funeral is like, you guys could not run a microfiber over that torpedo tube. Like, it is full of fingerprints. Yes, it is. Why is it looking like that? I was a little upset for Arium. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Bobby, do you like Ash Tyler? Because I'll admit, in his defense, his beard does look better in this episode. But like, come on. I wouldn't say that I like him. Okay. Like, like him?

[00:09:10] I liked him. Yes, no, or maybe. Check one. I'm curious about the Section 31 stuff. I'm just a little bit into Season 3. Oh, okay. So not that far ahead of this episode. But my biggest concern is why is his hair always so greasy? And I know that's like dumb, but like, does he have to look like he never showers? Thank you. Apparently. There's a lot of things I don't like about him, and that is one of them. So I appreciate that.

[00:09:40] I think he's a swimmer. Plus, he's not the greatest kisser with Michael. Like, I mean, I've seen Michael kiss some other people in this series, and it's not as shitty as with Ash. Yeah. So, I mean, Ash is a complicated character. I don't know. I have to finish Discovery, I guess, before I have an opinion fully. Oh, you know everything there is to know about Ash at this point. Greasy hair and don't trust the fucker. Is that it? Bad at kissing and will blame Voke for anything that he does that you don't like. Yeah. Well, thanks.

[00:10:10] That's fine. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't like boning him in my sleep or anything, you know? Yeah. Now, if I'm awake, that's a whole different thing. Yeah, exactly. Who do you bone in your sleep? I never said I wouldn't do when I was awake. Man, aren't you guys glad we don't have to worry about control anymore? Whew. We dodged that ball. We sure did. Well, so as an audience member, what are my feelings about Section 31 supposed to be at this point?

[00:10:40] Like, what do the writers want me to feel about Section 31? Who the hell knows? Because Michael is like, Section 31 is terrible. Is that your moral compass? And I'm like, wait, didn't we just find out that they were infiltrated? Like, okay, Leland is still kind of scummy. But, you know, at the time he was trying to mind wipe Spock, he thought Spock was a murderer and was being given orders by admirals who he didn't know were taken over. The only other two Section 31 agents we know, Philippa and Ash, we like. No.

[00:11:08] Most of us like them. And the other thing we know about them is that they put, what's her face? Lorell, they saved her in the Klingon Empire. So right now I'm thinking, oh, Section 31 is pretty good, right? They're good guys now? Okay. I hear what you're saying, Cameron. And I think this is actually an example of good writing because you don't, like if you haven't seen all of Deep Space Nine, you don't know what to feel about Section 31.

[00:11:36] So they're giving you this like character-based plausible deniability and like a question, right? Like, well, are they that bad? And it's like, I think you're supposed to feel that way because that's the question of Section 31 is can you have this organization of people who specifically operate outside the law as part of an organization like the Federation who is supposed to be held up as an ideal standard, right?

[00:12:05] So I think that this is part of the journey, pardon the term, of watching Star Trek. You're supposed to ask yourself like, really? Are they that bad? And I mean, is the CIA that bad, Cameron? Really? Depends which movie you're watching, yeah. Right. But also they're setting up the security of Star Trek in this show, which leads to the security that we get to see later on in other shows.

[00:12:34] I mean, maybe because of Section 31 and Control, we get a Picard, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I don't know. And I really want to, I think we should come back to this conversation in some way, Cameron, after you've seen all of DS9 because like DS9 plays in the mud and it is so glorious. Yeah. Well, I think you're right. I mean, because obviously Michael then goes back and apologizes to Ash and she was emotionally compromised.

[00:13:02] I guess I just wanted a little bit more of a reset at the beginning, especially when they're like, yeah, come on, let's go with this plan, which I'm sure we will get to. Yeah. Just a little bit like, okay, so what do we know about you guys and your motives? When, how long were you being controlled? Yeah. It's fair. Yeah, it is. It did. Cause it does. I was sitting there. Hey, like you said, we'll get to it. It was like, man, I got questions right now. Yeah. You know, who else has questions, John? Who's that? Our callers.

[00:13:32] That's right. Let's go ahead and hear for the first one. Here is Platy. Hey, open bike night. This is Platy M3 calling in with my hit shits and giggles for the Red Angel. Hits. I'm sure you guys will all talk good things, but I got a lot of shit to talk. So I'm just going to say, I really loved when Admiral Cornwall says she's cringing when Leland says he's got a solution. Okay, shits. I really don't understand Michael busting in demanding to know everything Leland's going to do to catch her. This is temporally stupid. Obviously, it wasn't past Michael jumping around through time.

[00:14:00] So thus, logically, it must be future Michael. They got a figure. They should all be keeping present Michael far, far, far away from any plan to capture her so that future Michael doesn't have that information, right? And hey, what the hell is the oath that Pike took as a captain? In the films, Captain's Oath is Kirk's TOS opening to seek out strange new worlds, new life, etc., bully going to what's going before. Now, Memory Alpha lists other stuff like upholding the principles of the Federation, non-interference, obeying Starfleet orders.

[00:14:27] Absolutely nowhere does it say to protect one person from harm at the risk of all sentient life in the galaxy. Come on, Chris. You just ordered Arium space. That didn't fly in the face of your oath? And hey, dang, could they not have just knocked Michael out first before her torture death? Seems like there was a better way to do that one. All right, giggles. Who the hell is running around the ship talking about Michael punching Leland? Was it Michael? Is she telling everyone that he killed her parents? Or is it Leland complaining to all who will listen? Because when Spock comes in to talk to Michael about this, I just had to freaking laugh. How the hell did he know?

[00:14:57] Also found it funny the ship can go in full autopilot, you know, just so everybody can attend a funeral. And hey, does Luciana Nilsen look familiar to anybody else? This is Platy M3 signing off. Oh my god, Platy, I hadn't thought of any of that and you're so right. Especially about like keeping Michael in the dark. No, no. Why did I think of that? Of course. Platy's calls are more and more every week designed to bait me into a defense. And it worked because guess what, Platy?

[00:15:27] I have some answers. I don't really have answers. I just have some feelings and some thoughts. Arium asked to be spaced. Pike didn't just decide to space her because it was convenient. Come on, you know that. Pike has refused to let crew people kill themselves many times, but we covered that last time. He went back and got Tilly, even though it was dangerous for the whole crew, but he spoke to the crew before they decided to do that. He said Starfleet is a promise.

[00:15:56] Nobody gets left behind. I give my life for you. You do the same. So I think here it's that he's trying not to strip his officers of agency when there's something they feel they believe they must do because we know Pike has great respect for different belief systems and different beliefs among his crew. We've seen that on screen. It's not something I'm making up.

[00:16:21] And I mean, does the temporal prime directive even exist yet, Platy? Or is it maybe the result of this season of Star Trek Discovery? That's a fair. I think that's a fair question. I mean, if you've like. Of course it exists, but. Right. But like Enterprise, is that really canon? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Enterprise fans, don't get mad at me.

[00:16:47] I'm just my point being like, look, if you have Section 31 there, they're going to break rules. Right. And it sounds like they're going to break rules with or without Pike's help. So if he has an officer who wants to participate in this. And yes, I agree. They probably should have given her a sedative or just completely put her under before they put her in the Bernie chair. Coma. Let's go all the way. The Bernie Burnham chair. Like this is. It writes itself. I don't disagree with that, Platy.

[00:17:16] But yeah, I mean, like I've said before, it doesn't all hang together perfectly. But I think the essence of Star Trek Discovery is people make emotional decisions and you have to deal with that in real life sometimes. But it could also just be that Leland had to go get medical attention and just one of the. Didn't make anything up. I mean, yeah. You know, we when I used to work in a place where we got medical reports every morning and there were a few times over the years where it's like, oh, this person had to go

[00:17:46] get seen for a bruise on his jaw. This person had to go get seen for bruise on his knuckles from climbing stairs. Right. Oh, somebody somebody took a swing. OK. Do you know what I like about that scene? Like they let Burnham like get get that great quick shot that that surprises him. Like, I believe she like knocked him out on his ass. And like, I love that. And he's kind of surprised. He doesn't even like want to pop up and fight her.

[00:18:14] But he's surprised by like it's not like she's going like you're going to take one from my mom. You can take one from my dad. You're going to do all this shit like she's she's on like a different level of something. Sonequa Martin-Green's physicality is incredibly impressive. And here's another moment, Cameron, where I was thinking of you, because I would love an edit where after that she hits him again and says, and that was for my old gaffer.

[00:18:43] But I understand that it wouldn't fit thematically. So I get it. I'll still take it. Well, if I can get pedantic about time travel, maybe. I don't know. There's a line near the beginning where they're asking like, you know, I forget what they're asking about. Why? Why didn't we see the air coming? Something about that. Why don't we know something? And Spot goes, the one variable we can't possibly predict is the future.

[00:19:11] WTF, are you talking about what predicting is predicting the future? Like, that's what prediction is, is trying to figure out the future. It's what I did not understand what I was talking about. It's he saying predicting how the future is writing the past because they're interrupting the past. Maybe that's what he's saying. Yeah, you can't. And like, you can guess at what is going to be in the future, but you can't like say for sure, oh, this is definitely what's happening in the future until like Michael Burnham, you

[00:19:41] take charge and go, oh, I'll make the future listen to me and I will adjust the present to fit that future in the way that I want it to. The one variable we can't possibly predict is the future. The only things you predict are what's going to happen in the future. That's what a prediction is. No. Yeah. But what he's saying, you can't predict what's actually going to be the future. Right. You have to make all your decisions that are logical. Yes, that's what a prediction is. It's a best guess.

[00:20:10] But he's using the future as like a definitive article, right? Like you can't use the future. You can't know the future. Right. And thus cannot use it as part of your equation. Like I'm being very pedantic about the word predict here. I agree. That's a bad usage of predict. Predict doesn't mean that you have claimed that that is the future or proven it is. It says this is a prediction. Right. Yes. Predicting the future is not the same as knowing or seeing the future. Right. No. Correct.

[00:20:39] I think no would have been the better word. The one thing we can't know is the future. And Cameron, if you were listening to Admiral Cornwell, you would know that the only way to make a new road is to walk it. Yeah. I also didn't know that either. Okay. But about that conference room, am I at this point, are we supposed to know where evil control came from or is that supposed to still be a mystery?

[00:21:05] Because they say, because I just assumed it evolved and got smart and it went Skynet. That's what I thought is that it went Skynet and then it found out about this orb data. And I was like, ooh, ooh, ooh. Give me that orb data. Oh, I had a chance to come back in time and get myself that orb data even quicker. That's what it was trying to do. Right. But they specifically say, Spock literally says, they say, how did it get evil? And Spock says, it was time travel. That's how control went evil.

[00:21:31] And then Saru says, the future AI infected control. When did control get infected by future AI? Are we supposed to know? I thought that. Well, the squid wasn't on a Section 31 shuttle, was it? No, the squid just got aerium. Well, the squid had access to Discovery's computers. And by then, before the squid, I'm pretty sure we had seen the doctored Spock footage or knew about it. Well, here's the thing with time travel, Cameron.

[00:22:01] Yeah. It's time travel. And maybe it's coming up. Maybe it's in the next few episodes. Maybe 70% is answered and the 30% is still in the future. We'll see. I'm carrying this question with me forward. I believe some of it is coming up. But I think, essentially, control does evolve in the future. Right. On the current timeline, control becomes sentient. Right. And what's happening here is that it's jumpstarting its own future.

[00:22:27] It's like, instead of going back in time to kill John Connor, the Terminator goes back in time and leaves its processor there for Cyberdyne to find. Sure. But, like, 20 years before they're supposed to. They're just all acting like they know what happened. And I'm like, I don't know what happened. You're just describing the episode of Terminator to Sarah Connor Chronicles called The Self-Made Man, Jesse. I would like to watch that show. It's a fantastic episode. I've heard it's a really good show and I want to watch it. Dude, that episode, I'm not going to. It's very.

[00:22:55] The episode's fun because it's about one Terminator who accidentally lands 100 years earlier than he should. So he has to become a rich businessman to build a building, to be in a certain spot. And it's great. I want to watch that and I want to watch the Terminator anime. Maybe that's what I'll do tonight. There you go. But. Anyway. To your point, though, Cameron, we get a lot of info dump in this episode and it's a lot quicker than we've had up to this point in the season. Like Tilly's info dump.

[00:23:23] I mean, she comes in and she's like, here's the next plot point. Like it's Michael Burnham. And like, I'm completely here for it. I don't mind that at all because they've been building up to it. And like we've said, you know, watching through it a second time, we know that that's coming up. And we've realized they actually have dropped a ton of hints that it's going to be Michael. We just we weren't quite there. And I I personally like the like mini rug pull of this episode because the first time I watched it, I was like, oh, it's Michael.

[00:23:53] But she's older. Like, that's so cool. Yep. And then she says mom and I'm like, what? Yeah. Yeah. That one was was a was held close enough to the chest that I remember the first time I watched him like, oh, they picked a good actor for an older Michael. That's cool. Yeah. The mom is like, oh, they cast an actor that could could have been like what she would look like aged. I thought. Absolutely. Now, it's a really good red angel, red herring. I'm here for it. It worked for me.

[00:24:24] Red angel is the red herring. Yeah. Red angel. Like this fish appearing and stopping a bunch of disaster. Angel fish is already a kind of fish. Anyways. There we go. You guys, this is really bugging me. Like I've watched a lot of Star Trek and I'll be honest. I thought. Pushing up on the transporter controls was for beaming people out and pulling down on the transporter controls was for beaming people in. But I think I'm wrong.

[00:24:50] Maybe just pushing up is just increasing the energy to the system regardless of the direction of the beam. I really thought there was like some continuity, but I don't know anymore. I don't know. Engineer Mark, you need to chime in on this. Well, I've also seen shots where they go up, wait till the bridge is gone, then back down. So, yeah. So are they powering it and then depowering the whole system? Like I, I, I, I like my way you push up to get them out. Is it based on BMI or something? Probably.

[00:25:20] I don't know. Damn. Well, let's hear from another caller. Here is Katie. Hey, hi, it's Katie. Uh, can I start with, um, why was Tyler in this episode? No, I'm kidding. I mean, not really, but I'm kind of kidding. I love how much Georgia loves Michael. Yes. Like their, their whole relationship is confusing. No one gets it, but like, Hey, we love it. It's great.

[00:25:48] I have no idea what Georgia was doing playing matchmaker, but I'm also not really complaining because that was funny. Spock and Michael's entire, like every time Spock turns around and just is like picking at Michael and the way everybody in the room just tries not to laugh about it because yeah, it's funny. Uh, and then Kat was like good at her job as a therapist. I mean, okay. Yeah. I'm probably biased, but like, yeah.

[00:26:17] Yeah, she did good. And really quick question. Um, did nobody consider that making a plan to kill Michael, to lure a future Michael with Michael would not work? I don't know. Whatever. Kat was in this episode. I love her. Really? What am I complaining about? There was Kat. Yeah. All right. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye.

[00:26:47] Excellent call. And I gotta say, like, I'm looking at my notes right now and one of them starts with Cornwell is so damn good at her job and at her old job. So I'll ask again. Best Trek Admiral ever? I mean, maybe. I gotta say that for me, maybe it's like a 90% at this point. Like I love her. She's so good. I love her. And I'm really glad that you asked about Ash because you're right.

[00:27:17] We don't need him in this episode at all, even a little bit. But to your point about the Michael trap, okay? They're all like asking, well, what could the Red Angel be doing? But then they know that it's Michael and they know they have this control issue. Like, is it a leap in logic to assume that Michael is doing this to stop control? Like control comes from the future. This suit came from the future.

[00:27:46] Gee, I wonder how they're connected. Do you know what I mean? Like it feels like they should go, well, she's probably trying to stop control as opposed to like, but why is she visiting? Like, well, that gets to my big question for the episode. Why are they building a mouse trap? A Michael trap? Why? Why are they trying to capture the Red Angel? I mean, Leland says something about like, we're going to get our tech back and figure out what's going on. But like this. I don't know. And then they say the whole thing about like, well, we can't leave the bubble open too

[00:28:15] much or more AI will get into our timeline. So they know it's dangerous beyond just dangerous for Michael. Why are they trying to capture the angel? They found out it's Michael. So they know it's not an evil entity. Right. But it's not Michael in this instance. As far as they know, they've got control contained. They don't know that it's spread. I mean, Pike says they don't know, but. Right. They don't know. Well, and there's no, there's no urgency now. Well, and Pike is right because we see at the end of this that Leland gets totally controlled directly in the eye.

[00:28:45] Oh my gosh. Guys. Guys. And I just watched first contact. So like things going to eyeballs, like I'm getting serious fire in the sky flashbacks. It's not been a good weekend for me. Star Trek loves putting stuff in people's eyes. Yeah. I just like the control as a fan of the 1996 Billy Zane movie, the Phantom, where the guy has a microscope with little razor blades in it. And he stabs somebody who betrayed him with it. John, what was that Billy Zane Kung Fu movie I told you to watch? Hold on. Now I got to find it.

[00:29:15] Oh, Invincible. Invincible. If you are hearing my voice, please go to YouTube, go wherever you have to go. Watch Invincible. Watch Invincible with Billy Zane. The lowest rent Matrix ripoff ever. And it stars Billy Zane. It is so bad that it is deliciously good. I promise you will not be disappointed. Love it. Love it. But Cameron, I think the answer is because they need to know how to proceed.

[00:29:41] And because Michael is going to do this either way. Like Michael, we know that she is willing to take on the fate of the entire universe to assuage her own guilt. I do love all those asides by Spock. They are great. They really are. Oh my God, so good. And I love that we get to see him forgive her in this episode and decide like, you know what? I'm going to help you and I'm going to needle you even though while I'm doing it. Like very sibling.

[00:30:06] But I think it is specifically because they feel like, okay, we're clearly on a crash course here. Like, or a collision course. Like this red angel, this control, this stuff all clearly matters. And it has some kind of purpose for right now. So how can we get ahead of this person from the future and understand what's going on? I just, it's just, and I didn't really think about until later, especially when I was like,

[00:30:33] so they know it's Michael or they believe it's Michael and Pike is okay with spending all this time and energy to capture her, to, to cut off her technology. Like they kind of brush aside quickly, like, Oh, she probably can't contact us or communicate with us because of techno babble. Maybe if they had hit a little hard, if she was like, if it were me, I would want to be captured so I could communicate. I'm probably trying to tell you guys and you need to, you need to hold me here.

[00:31:01] So I'm able, but they don't do any of that groundwork. And I just don't buy that. Anyone besides Leland is actually motivated to try to capture the red angel against its will because it is, they are imprisoning her. I think that they have limited information, right? All they know is that maybe if Burnham's the angel, then if she's going to die, that that would change the whole future. Right? Like it's, it's not a bad, uh, setup, but I think the red angel has free will.

[00:31:30] Why are they trying to capture her? Yeah. Two things. Doesn't hurt anybody. First thing. Yeah, exactly. First thing Bobby is right. Second thing, we know that Leland is going to do this regardless, right? Yeah. So we know that Pike has no problem going against orders to stop Leland from doing something he doesn't want Leland to do. But is he going to kill Leland and his whole crew? You know what I mean? Like if he can have somebody on the inside, current Michael, as part of this process that

[00:31:58] he trusts, isn't that better than just saying, all right, well, you know what? Discovery's out of here. Leland, go do whatever you feel like doing because he doesn't trust him. Go back to something you just said, kill Leland and his whole crew. I'm pretty sure at this point, his whole crew is Georgiou. Because those are the only section 31 Georgiou, Ash and Leland are, there's nobody else on that ship. And the Georgiou connection is really important because Georgiou and Burnham have a strong

[00:32:26] relationship connection, even though it's not the same. So that, that I think that that complicates us, which I like it. It's richly complicated. Yes. Because they need information and we need somebody to be the scapegoat to like put themselves out there and like be the bait. Right. Well, it's my turn to get a little pedantic. Do it. Why is Georgiou even still there? She's there because she wants to be. As soon as the whole control thing happened. Yeah.

[00:32:52] I mean, she must, because as soon as they found out about the control thing and everybody apparently left the ship, but her and Leland, that's like, why was she like, okay, well, I'm bored now. I'm going to go do something else. Well. Well, because they must, you know, I get that she likes Michael, but why is she there? So much. What else is she supposed to do? Much like Michael Burnham, John, I'm going to come back from the future to give you some information that you haven't seen yet, or you probably just don't remember, but I promise

[00:33:21] you there are more people on Leland's ship right now. I promise. No, I know that. But in this episode, there sure aren't. No, you're totally right. We don't see them. But I mean, think of them as the discovery crew. You don't need to see all of them in every episode. We kind of do mostly though. We see a lot of them. I, yeah, I'm just, I'm catering to the folks who say they don't remember any of the discovery crew's name. Really? Oh, wow.

[00:33:50] So Katie had mentioned Philippa playing matchmaker. And I mean, let's talk about that scene. It's an amazing scene. Also, I have discovered my Star Trek ship. Finally, you know, the Spurks can have their Spurks. The Czechotainways can have their Czechotainways. The Chortagans. Mine. And I can't defend it. I can't explain it, but I will embrace it and enjoy it. The Tilipa. Tilly and Philippa. Oh my God. I just, I'm going to go write my fanfic now.

[00:34:19] I want this. I need this in my life. It's everything. Tilly is the entire audience surrogate in that scene where Georgiou is explaining like varying sexualities across timelines. Tilly is so uncomfortable. And she, like, she actually just says, what just happened? Like. But is she uncomfortable or like amazed? Oh my God. She's uncomfortable with how turned on she is. Something is awakening inside of her and I need that fan fiction. Yes. No, yeah.

[00:34:49] That button is the perfect one to that scene. That scene is, is 20 times better than anything that occurred in section 31. Yes. I agree with that. Absolutely. Oh man. Bummer. I haven't seen that yet. And our callers are 20 times better than the listeners anywhere else. So let's go ahead and hear from another one. Here is Abby. We love all our listeners. Even if you don't call in. Sorry. That was rude. Hey, hey, Open Pike. It's Abby Summer from the First Flight Podcast here with a few thoughts on Red Angel.

[00:35:18] So again, like I said about the last episode, this one feels like we have a lot of plot exposition to get through. We have a lot of layers getting peeled back. We have a lot of things that are bubbling up to the surface. And it's kind of fun. It's where you really start to feel like maybe you actually know what's going on and then realize at the very end you have absolutely no idea what's going on. Which was really the fun part of this episode for me is that twist at the end where she sees her mom for the first time.

[00:35:45] And I also want to call out the beautiful scene between Admiral Cornwell and Culber. Like that is just gorgeous. And I love both of them. And they are powerhouses at playing emotion in ways that really shows it naked and raw. And I appreciate that with both of them. So those are my thoughts. Onward we go. Hope this finds you. Ignore as well. We'll talk soon. All right, Abby.

[00:36:10] I'm going to do my best to ignore the image you put in my mind of Culber naked. But I will bring up the costuming here because I know you're a big fan of the costuming, Abby, much as we all are. Gersha Phillips is a master. I think the costuming and discovery all the way through is incredibly well done, especially when it's incredibly subtle and super normal. Culber is just wearing a collared shirt, like a regular collared shirt this whole episode. And you know why?

[00:36:39] Because he looks damn good in it. He doesn't look out of place. It's just like this is how he would dress because he knows how to dress himself. It's like they told him, hey, whatever you've got at your house, good enough for a space show because it totally works. And then he puts on the jacket when he goes to see Cornwall. The jacket, man. I'm like, dude, get this guy his own TV show. How is he not the lead in seven TV shows? Right? He's coming back.

[00:37:09] This actor is about to explode for the next 20 years. That's what I think. I really hope so. Oh, just wait, Bobby. You've got some Culber episodes ahead of you. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I know. I'm still behind. But I think Abby has a point. She has a very good point. And, you know, it's interesting watching Discovery. It's so relationship heavy and maybe too many plot points heavy at certain points, depending on your view.

[00:37:37] But I really love how they let characters in the show on the bridge, off the bridge have stories, which is something you didn't get to see in TNG so much and other things. But I know that's not a fan favorite for some people, but I really think that Discovery does a pretty good job of balancing eight different plots and character, like love lines and challenges. And I mean, it's kind of impressive.

[00:38:05] But also, I see why people get tired of it. I guess. It can take a lot out of you to watch Discovery. Like, yeah. Yeah. You can be emotionally exhausted at the end of an episode, let alone a season. But yeah. There's a lot of love for it. We're probably through a season where Tilly was haunted by a ghost. Not too many episodes. That's true. Oh, God. There are a lot of it. That's true. I remember when they force evolved an entire planet. Yes. And remember, there's a whole episode about Klingons a while ago. Yeah.

[00:38:35] And they cut a baby's head off. That thing comes back at the very end. As Jesse has pointed out, this season works better if you binge it. But my God, is it hard to binge. Yeah. There's a lot going on. Just eat more edibles. I was going to say, you need chemicals and snacks and time, pardon the pun, to get through this season of Discovery. Like, if you're going to watch it all at once, it's a lift. Jesse, what did you say?

[00:39:05] Time crystal, baby! Time crystals! Yeah! I think it's time for me to play one of my calls. All right. I always love in shows that take place in the future when they're just like, how do we show future tech crystals? If we don't know how to do it and we don't know how to represent it, get a fucking crystal in there and nobody's going to say a word because they don't know what crystals do. We all kind of think we know what crystals do, but you don't know.

[00:39:35] And it looks fucking badass. Hey, they power lightsabers. I'm good with it. Hey, he puts a big fucking crystal into the thing and just let's go. Ready to party. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That was actually a clip from the season one episode of Green Shirt and Newbies Strikes of the Next Generation from The Naked Now with Alex talking about crystals. Yes. Star Trek has always loved crystals. And here we had our first, my first mention anyway, of time crystal. I meant to look up what I texted to you because I remember watching this episode the first

[00:40:04] time and texting you guys and being like, time crystals? What? I figure, Cameron, nobody should love time crystals more than you because it's a perfect device. You know what it does. It's right there in the name. And it's also incredibly 80s of them to say, we power this suit with a time crystal. Like- It's Care Bear Stare. Yeah. At a sci-fi level is what it is. You know what else is powered by time crystals? What? Watches that are quartz based.

[00:40:33] Quartz is a time crystal. Different type of time. Yeah, Cameron, but Open Pike Night Trivia Ambush. In that episode, Cam, what is getting powered by crystals in The Naked Now? It is. It's- Wesley's got a couple of things going on. He's got a voice synthesizer that he uses to imitate Picard to take over the Enterprise because he's time drunk or something. Water drunk. He's water drunk. There's also a tractor beam thing going on.

[00:41:03] So I think the crystals are powering the tractor beam. I believe you're right. Yeah. All right. It's his little portable tractor beam that they- Yes. Is that the episode where Wesley says, I feel strange, but also good. Yep. Yep. I'll be right back. That's what happens when I take some crystal. Just joking. I'm not into meth. You know, we're done. Cameron- Something dramatic has happened in Oregon. I think Klingons just showed up at Cameron's house. I think something's attacking a chicken. Yeah.

[00:41:32] Oh. I don't know. I don't know they have chickens. I'm telling you, those fucking raccoons, they're no joke, everybody. Yeah. Sorry, there's raccoons attacking our chickens. We guessed correctly. That's exactly what I guessed. Yeah. Pretty sure they're all alive. John nailed it. Pretty sure they're all alive. It was raccoons and chickens. Yep. Nice. Nice. Let's see. Does anybody remember where we were? Yeah. Time crystals. Time crystals. Well, we're talking shit about- Oh, yeah. Time crystals. No, before that.

[00:42:02] So, I'm better with time crystals now after I've gotten used to them and seen them in their entirety. Yeah. But the way they're presented in this episode is, well, one, Leland is like, yeah, I didn't believe in time travel either. And I was like, you're in section 31. You should know all about the temporal cold war. Yes. That wasn't retconned later. That was in Enterprise. It is. The Vulcans don't believe in time travel at the start of Enterprise.

[00:42:29] And it is heavily controlled information. So, like, I could see- And I think he was saying, I didn't believe in time travel until I became an evil section 31 guy. And now I do because I know it exists. Maybe. Well, yes. He said until they built the suit. So, this time travel suit is definitely a theoretical thing. And then it'd be like, and we had everything except the time crystal, which enables you to jump through time.

[00:42:56] And you're like, wait, so you built the rest of this theoretical thing without the actual fuel that helps you fly it? And it's- Do you know how often we do that in real life anyway? That's what military contractors do. They build cool shit. And they're like, this would work great. I mean, those robot dogs, they'll work great if we can ever come up with a power supply that doesn't require they're tied to a big cable. Yep. But you don't believe in time travel. And meanwhile, you know about a whole power source called time crystals that enable things to move through time.

[00:43:26] I don't know. It's just a weird thing. It was like, yes. And also, we found a time crystal. Let's go steal it. I built a jet. Good thing we had all this jet fuel nearby. That's just called jet fuel. We didn't know what it was for until now that we built the jet. It's the difference between theory and practice. Okay. So, like, warp travel is theoretically, mathematically completely plausible. It's called the Alcubierre drive.

[00:43:51] But we can't power it because we don't have some kind of matter that would put out more energy than we need without, you know, collapsing the universe or something along those lines. So, I really... It's probably clumsily stated in this four-sentence paragraph in this episode. But I don't have a problem with, like, the idea of them saying, we built a suit. And if we could figure out how to power that suit, it would travel through time for us.

[00:44:21] Why do you think we need to power this time travel suit? They didn't know about time crystals. That's why when they heard it, somebody was... Some Klingon was like, well, time crystals. And they were like, whoa, wait. What kind of crystal? Because we have a suit for that. Is that what it's called? Is it called that for a reason? Also, are we supposed to think Leland is a bad guy here? Or is it just Michael being maybe justifiably emotional? But, like, I don't know. He was doing his job.

[00:44:49] Like, he didn't kill her parents. Like, they were doing their job. Everyone was doing their job. Shit happens in Starfleet. I agree with you, Cameron. No. However, when, like, a child that's now an adult hears that shit, I want to see that punch out. You know what I mean? And, Cameron, you just finished watching TNG, where Picard explains, I was only following orders has been used to justify all kinds of atrocities in human history. And it is not good enough.

[00:45:18] But they weren't doing anything terrible. Here we go. They went a botic time crystal in the black market. Yes, we're going to read justice for the Bayoule, justice for Leland. Well, also, I mean, like, again, we were having this recording earlier with Abby, you know, plot stuff happens for plot. Why does the Section 31 ship have a system that requires, like, retinal scans to authenticate something?

[00:45:42] But that scanner is somewhere down the hall from the bridge to authenticate, removing a safety system. It's like, oh, so he gets stabbed in the eye. What movie was it? Does anybody remember a movie where somebody needs to get into a door and they ask them to pass a security check and they have to breathe on it? And that's the, like, it reads their breath. And then later somebody bypasses it by spraying, like, different, different. Yeah. What is that? Is that a Mission Impossible movie? Is it Charlie's Angels? I don't know. It's. No. Oh, maybe it is Charlie's Angels.

[00:46:12] Yeah, it might be the. Because I know they do the contact, which shouldn't fool a retinal scanner. Yeah. And then I think they do, she does, like, handprint or something. I can't remember. Yeah. Maybe that's not what it was. It might have been Charlie's Angels. But anyway, I was thinking that. I'm like, he has to run up and look in a periscope to authenticate a security thing? It's, what's the word? Infosec, John.

[00:46:36] Like, they're compartmentalizing command of the ship so that only the top douchebag, Leland, can be in charge of that thing. You know, I'm just glad we got to see him get stabbed in the eye after he got punched in the face. Dude, it's a great, like, fuck you, Leland episode. If only Ash Tyler had, like, taken command from him and then had to accept all that stuff in his place. Do any of you have, like, a little bit more empathy for him versus Ash?

[00:47:05] Like, at this point, I'm kind of, like, leaning towards Leland. I know that he's whatever, but they're kind of playing Ash as, like, the bigger dick, which is interesting. Because he's choosing to be with, you know, Section 31. And I hear where you're coming from, and I think I probably agree. Because we know that Leland at least used to be a good officer, based on how Pike talks to him when they first meet back up, right?

[00:47:33] So, like, we know that at some point he, you know, much like O'Brien's old captain, abandoned everything he believed in and cast all his principles aside just to get the job done. So, it's like, we know that he used to be a good person, and now he works for the evil Starfleet squad.

[00:47:57] But also, if he sends Burnham's parents to this, on this task or mission, he must have been, what, 22? Like, how much older is he than Michael? That was my question. I mean, I was like, are you, like, 60? He's aging incredibly well. Are you Doogie Howser, Section 31? Is that what's happening? Like, I don't understand. And on Leland, I had a revelation about him today. He looks a lot like Robert Downey Jr.

[00:48:26] Like, if Robert Downey Jr. and Tom Sizemore had an ugly baby. That's it. That is it. I will agree with that, but he does not look like Robert. He's got the same. It's either an expression or, like, a way he uses his face. There is a, he looked a lot like him in certain shots. It's the mouth side-to-side thing, Cam. With Tom Sizemore. Got it. If Robert Downey Jr. cut off Time Sizemore's face and wore it like a mask. Can we watch Face Off after this, actually? Let's do that. Yes, please. Let's just kill each other.

[00:48:55] Is that the one where they take their faces off? Yeah. It's a brilliant, it's a brilliant title. But okay, as long as we're talking about technology, here's my biggest, like, I guess you could call it a complaint of this episode. Why is everybody so worried that Michael is dead? Like, they're already bringing people. No, I understand that, but they're already bringing people back from the dead constantly on Star Trek, right?

[00:49:21] Like, at this point, it's got to have happened 15 or 20 times in canonical, like, chronological order. So, like, and suffocating, like, I would think that's probably something they can fix pretty well. But I understand that it's more of an emotional thing than it is a physical thing. And damn, it hits hard emotionally. Like, it really does. They did a good job. It was tough to watch.

[00:49:48] I'm wondering, is it, like, is it a metaphor that, like, she has to endure physical pain to feel okay with getting over her emotional pain or something like that? Or just feeding into her, you know. Into her savior complex. Yeah, savior complex. Because Spock forgave her. I have to take this pain to save the entire galaxy. Wait, she's trying to say something. What she's trying to say, stab me in the side of the spear. Really, Michael? Is that a little on the nose?

[00:50:18] She's not saying variants. She's saying, fuck you. Spock and her relationship is so, like, their thing in this episode is gold. So much better than their thing in last episode. I agree. Yeah. I mean. This was Spock. This was great, Spock. He walks in. He gives, like, he uses his logic for a funny, awkward moment. Then he throws some logic shade.

[00:50:46] And then he uses his logic to actually connect with someone. And it's like, yes, that is all of Spock right there in that scene. You did it great. Perfect. Yep. Yep. I do have to ask you, Cam. Are you still waiting for them to pick up those chess pieces? Or was that a Mandela effect? Are those chess pieces on her floor? Yeah, they're still on the floor. There's a scene coming up where they put him back on the board. Oh, I can't wait to keep watching these episodes and see it. I know. I remember the scene.

[00:51:14] This episode is good for relationships all the way around, I think. Like, you've got some gold in here. This is the episode, in my opinion, where we start to let Georgiou in, like, as a good person. Right? Because up till now, it's like, oh, she's fun and she's kind of evil. I like that. But here you're like, no, this is her daughter. And she is terrified to lose her. And you can see that on her face.

[00:51:39] She and Pike agree on something in this episode because they feel like they're her space parents. Michael Burnham is so lucky to have three sets of parents all in close proximity to one another. Yeah, why does she cry so much? Some people don't even get one. Like, yeah. I will say, she's done impressively a little crying lately, you know, until she was dying. What? She did. Between the Leland scene and this episode. Oh, sorry, Leland. Sorry, I forgot Leland. She was surprised every episode. This scene has to do some acting this episode.

[00:52:10] Yeah. Oh, my God. She read this script and was like, can I have a couple months to prepare? Yeah. And like Georgiou not being evil, neither are our callers. Here is Melanie. Hi, guys. Oh, this episode starts out with high intensity levels. It's Arium's funeral with wonderful and touching speeches. They're all like punched in the gut. It makes me sad seeing them. I think Ash comped his beard finally. Does he get it that Michael hurts because of him?

[00:52:39] And now he works for Section 31, who created control and killed Arium. Man, Ash. Michael is really pissed at him. Or is she? And Chris Pike is there like a pillar of strength and empathy in the middle of a raging storm. His role in this episode is not just that of a commanding officer, but of a steady, compassionate leader who serves as the emotional anchor for the crew. He just remains a beacon of integrity among all that's going on. Oh, do Michael and Spock get along finally?

[00:53:09] And now the scary part. Captain, if you want to capture the Red Angel, you've got to let me die. If he wants to save the universe, there is no other way. And Chris is horrified. But as there is no other way, he follows along. It is so difficult to watch Michael suffer so much, oh man. Where is it? Where is the Red Angel? All in all, this is a very cruelling episode, but everyone shines and Anson gives a typically

[00:53:34] nuanced performance as Pike, caring for a grieving crew, going against his instincts and oath to catch the Red Angel. And Michael finally clears the air with Spock and Ash and punching Leland twice. Oh, he had that coming. That's it for me. Live long and prosper. Yes. I'm so glad to hear again from you, Melanie. Thank you for putting a call together with essentially no notice.

[00:54:00] Thanks to all of our callers tonight for putting their calls together with essentially no notice. And let me just be the first to say, my bad. Sorry I did not get the call for calls out a little bit earlier. Everything was going crazy with the whole upcoming Jonathan Frakes interview that you will hear on First Contact Day. So thank you so much for bailing us out, you guys. And I'm really, really glad that Melanie stays consistent.

[00:54:26] Like in episodes where there's so much going on and I'm like, oh, I love Michael. Oh, I love Spock. I love Georgiou now. Tilly is great. Stametson Culber. Oh, no, my heart. She's like, no, Captain Pike. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. Captain Pike crushes it this episode.

[00:54:43] And I'm realizing watching this that this is probably something that helps Pike cope in the situation with the death of Hammer that he will experience in a couple of years because this is tearing him up. And in that episode, he feels a little more buttoned down. And I think he understands, you know, as Spock would say, ship out of danger.

[00:55:09] The lives of the lives or the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. And this is a great example of Michael really embracing her Vulcan upbringing to help save all sentient life in the universe. I'm so glad that you brought up Pike again, Melanie. Thank you. Yeah, it's great how Pike wants to save people and protect his crew. Yeah. And I love that also.

[00:55:39] Well, I don't know. Somebody else can say something. I just want to say I like that, too. It is weird after spending so much time in Strange New Worlds as we have on our Strange New Worlds podcast to be watching this and being like, oh, yeah, he's not the main character. He's in three scenes. That's it's still I'm still getting used to it here. Like Melanie said, Pike is there. Yeah. But this this episode with Spock, Ethan Peck is like so impeccable.

[00:56:08] I mean, I was really grateful that you asked me to be on this episode. I went back and watch and I was like, oh, yeah, this is good stuff. Like this is a precipice almost like this is a turning point for what's going to come next. And Ethan Peck delivers Spock delightfully. And of course, Michael's always I mean, they're so good. But you're right. Like Captain Pike seems kind of like a sideshow on this, but he's not like he's trying to pull the plug.

[00:56:38] He's like he's he's holding the reins even over the admiral. Right. The admiral's like your call. It's your call. Yeah. So we learn about Michael's parents. We learned that they were very smart. Her mom's an astrophysicist and an engineer, which I fully believe because it takes the kind of thinking an engineer does. You know, somebody who's book smart.

[00:57:02] It takes that kind of thinking to look at somebody tied to a chair in a room surrounded by dishes pointing up at you when you come in and be like, this isn't a trap. That's not bait. I don't know why my daughter is tied to a chair right now and dying. But oh, well, what the hell? I'll just stay right in this one spot. What if it is? I know I'm going to get caught, but I have to save my daughter.

[00:57:31] Well, what if what if the red angel knows that it's a I see the trap? They're really going for it. Holy shit. We're at 42 seconds now. She's not breathing. Fuck those fuckers. Fine. I'll be trapped. That maybe that's it, too. That and we know Gabrielle Burnham has seen some shit like if there is one thing in the universe that she's like, I am not going through this again.

[00:58:00] It's losing Michael no matter what the cost. Like, I really feel like we get. I mean, and obviously that's not in this episode. Those are in episodes coming up. But I really feel like if there's anybody who would say, you know what? To hell with all sentient life in the universe. I'm going to save my daughter because I wasn't able to the last time. It's a Burnham and it's Gabrielle Burnham.

[00:58:25] And I and to Bobby's point, it could be something she knows is a possibility. Like she's been through a lot of time. So it's totally possible. But to your point, John, I've said this before and I'll probably say it again. The Red Angel makes an entrance like nobody in Star Trek. It is the coolest freaking thing ever in Star Trek. Like, I absolutely love it every time that suit shows up.

[00:58:54] And it looks like freaking like Metal Kerrigan from StarCraft. Like, it's so badass with the Daft Park helmet. Excuse me, the Queen of Blades. Yeah, I know. I know what her Zerg title is. I'm not an amateur. I'm just saying she's got the wings. She's got the Daft Punk helmet. It's Tron on Space Crack and I'm here for it. Hmm.

[00:59:17] Well, speaking of the Red Angel making an appearance, they realized that every time the Red Angel appeared, it was to save Michael. Michael was in danger. I always do get confused between the signals and the angel. Like every time I'm like, wait, what? Oh, right. Okay. But that's neither here nor there. Except, correct me if I'm wrong, when the angel appeared to the people in the church a hundred years ago or however many years ago. Like, that wasn't to save Michael. Doesn't that screw up their entire plan?

[00:59:45] No, but that was Michael showing up to Charlie. But they don't know that. I'm talking about their hypothesis that the angel only appears to save Michael. Oh, I think Spock's just talking the current appearances. Well, and he's saying that the- Well, it's time travel. There is no current. He's saying the variant is Michael. Like, the times that they've had close contact with the Red Angel was to save Michael. The times that they didn't was to save other people. Or like, to bring the discovery to a place.

[01:00:14] Because there's like- Well, those were the signals. The signals brought the discovery to a place. The angel saved Michael. Right. But the angel arriving creates a signal. So like, there are two sets of signals. One that are part of the angel's plan. And then one that are, oh shit, I have to go save my daughter again. Because she's always trying to get herself to. Let's forget everything we know about what is actually happening. No, I think that's what Spock is saying. I'm talking about their plan.

[01:00:41] Their plan is they go, oh, we now know why the Red Angel shows up. It's only when Michael's in danger. But there's at least one instance of it showing up when she's not in danger. No. But maybe they're simplifying it because they only have like- They have like three out of the ten things they know. But they know they have to like somehow trap the Red Angel. And that's what they base their whole plan that, Oh, we can kill Michael because we know the Red Angel will show up. No, I think they- Because it only shows up when Michael's in danger.

[01:01:08] No, I think they specifically say sometimes it's this and the other times it's when Michael's in danger. So the Spock deduces, oh, that's the variant is Michael. Because- And if Michael's the variant and we kill Michael, the angel has to intervene. Right. Thus there is no Red Angel. Right. So I'm pretty sure he says she's the constant, but I can- I don't think this conversation is going-

[01:01:32] One thing we can say for sure is that you cannot tell Spock that he does not have convictions. My God, like every version of Spock, he will just like- He'll steal the Enterprise. Sacrifice everything to do what he believes. Yes, he will steal the Enterprise. He will defy orders. He will go undercover. He will do all the things Spock has done throughout his career because he believes in something. And this is one of the most visceral moments of them all. He's got faith in the heart. Yeah.

[01:02:02] Exactly. He's got faith in the heart. It's a different kind of Vulcan commitment. Yeah, because- It's really sweet. Because we know Vulcans aren't emotionless. They actually feel emotions way stronger than humans do, and they just button that stuff down. But I, to your, like, legitimately, Cameron, like, I'm not doing this just to disagree with you because I have fun doing that.

[01:02:21] I legitimately think the conversation follows a, some sort of path of, like, why was Michael not present for these signals but was present for these signals? And Spock's like, because she was in danger. And if she's the Red Angel, which they've already been told, then she's preventing a grandfather paradox where if she dies, she won't get to go to the future. I legitimately think that it's something like that in the conversation.

[01:02:49] So we can, I mean, we obviously both watch it again and verify, but, like, I think that that is what happened. Well, before you both watch it again, let's hear from our last caller. Here is Michi. Hi, guys. You better clear this all up, Michi. This is Michi, and here are my thoughts about the episode, The Red Angel. I have to admit, it is not my favorite episode.

[01:03:10] However, it had some good scenes, like Tilly storming the ready room or how Chris had to suppress his laughter at the antics of Spock and Michael in sickbay. And George Roe had so much fun in engineering with Demet and Dr. Kolber. Finally, there resolves the issues between Michael and Spock, only for Spock trying to kill her in the next moment. And he did so by disobeying a direct order.

[01:03:38] To me, this all felt too much like the end justifies the means. Disobeying a direct order, no consequences. Michael had the captain, and no consequences. And other people must know about that, because Spock knew the next scene. And why wouldn't they just sedate Michael in the chair, so she didn't have to suffer? Yes. There is no reason for her to be conscious at that point.

[01:04:06] And my final note, Tyler. Why couldn't they just lost the keys and forget about him? Yes, I know. That's mean. So all in all, it was a good episode. But I wouldn't rank it in my top ten. Have a great day. Bye. I, that was, whoever this is, you're delightful. Like, oh my gosh. Yeah. You're amazing.

[01:04:29] But don't you think that, like, time and space and the Red Angel and all of the culpable moments that make it, like, possible, Michael doesn't, doesn't, doesn't Michael have to, like, literally die? Yeah. And suffer for it to be real? Like, to, if, if, if we just put her in a, if we put her in a coma, or give her pain sedatives, don't you think, I mean, those are also things that, I mean.

[01:04:59] Oh, that's. I like the grandfather. I like the trap. I like the idea of, like, look, Michael's going to know if it is Michael, the only thing that will bring her here is if we kill her. Because that's the only thing that will bring someone from the future, bring herself from the future to this point. Because if she dies, then, then Red Angel dies. Like, like, that's the only thing that they can know for sure will bring this angel to them. So I like that concept. But, yeah, no, she doesn't have to feel the pain.

[01:05:27] And, like, why wouldn't the angel show up right away? Like, if it was Michael and if it knew this was happening, like, yeah, she wouldn't be like, I'm going to let myself go through that pain again just to make it dramatic. I think I'm kind of with Bobby here. Because, like, a couple of reasons. One, like I was saying earlier, I think thematically it's meant to be, she's, she's going to go through all kinds of pain, right? She went through the emotional pain. Now she's going to go through the physical pain because she's willing to do it to help the universe.

[01:05:57] But also, to Bobby's point, that's a very advanced suit from the actual future with all kinds of sensors on it. And it would know. The suit is from the present. Yeah, the suit is from the present. It was originally from the present, but it's been spending time in the future. And we know when tech goes to the future, it gets upgraded. Let's look at its passport and I want to see all the stamps. It went to Europe over summer vacation. Every time it comes back, it won't shut the fuck up about going to Europe. Yeah.

[01:06:22] It's always saying cabetha and using the lisp like it's cool. Sure, you have a Spanish boyfriend over there. Right, yeah. He goes to a different university. But I think the point actually works because it's like that suit would be able to, okay, the suit has, what is it? Is it a medical resuscitation beam or is it a time beam?

[01:06:47] Did she rewind Michael out of death with the red time beam to fix her? Point being, it's an advanced suit. It would know like, oh, look, my daughter's dying. Oh, no, she's in a medically induced coma. They're trying to trap me. I've got other stuff to do, honey. I got to go. No, you have to kill her. Then. Yeah, you have to put her out there and let her die. But she doesn't have to feel the pain to draw the angel. I think Michael wanted to feel the pain. Of course she does. Unless it's not real. Yeah.

[01:07:14] Why would the red angel come if it's just like a circus show? No, you have to kill her, but she doesn't have to feel the pain. No, I think she does. Yeah, she'd just be sedated. But that's not the argument you're making. Okay, picture yourself looking back and going, I don't know, are they really killing her? She looks like she's in a peaceful coma. Fuck it, we're not going back to. It's her. She'll know if they were really killing her. It's not. It's her mother. But they don't know that. I know.

[01:07:42] But the angel knows. This is a very confusing episode to discuss. Yeah, they do act as if they know that it's not her several times in this episode, even if subconsciously. And people have brought it up. Well, why would you tell her your plan if she's the one doing it? Yeah, they act as if it's not her in this suit in this episode more than they act as if it's her in the suit. That is a fair point. And why did they tell Michael all this? I love the idea of you have to do this. She's like, what? What? I'm going to have to die?

[01:08:12] I love if she's unaware. That changes it into a even more dramatic episode, I think. But I don't think... If she just volunteers and says, I trust you all. I'm going to walk in the water and just transport her down to the planet surface. Well, if she says, like, if I believe you, but don't tell me, like, right? This is temporal stuff. Like, I can't know everything. Yeah. Give me the Pulaski maneuver. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Spock explains it well, which is like, once Michael knows that this is her, she's

[01:08:39] going to find a way to make this happen because she's going to take responsibility. Like, Tilly coming in and saying, we figured out who it is. It's Michael. That's the point where it no longer matters if you tell Michael the plan because she will make her own plan and she will go find a suit, steal a suit, steal files, whatever she has to do to try and fix this. Because as Spock points out, it is in her nature to shoulder universe level burdens.

[01:09:06] So I feel like it's them knowing who they're working with. Like, you all work with that person where you're like, oh, you told him the plan? All right. Whatever. Whatever. There's no reason to fake now that we're not all going out after work. Well, that's what I was trying to say about the grandfather paradox, because even if she knows the plan, that's why I meant like, even though she knows the plan, even though if it was her in the suit, if future her knew the plan, there's nothing she can do to stop it. She's got to save herself if she's dying. Like, it's not a trick. Because it's not a trick, you can tell her. Right.

[01:09:36] Yes. I agree with that. Plus, it's kind of her plan, right? Yeah. And I know it sounds probably pretty contentious to you listeners, but I assure you we're all having fun. Oh, yeah. Oh, so much fun. I kind of like this episode, guys. I love this episode. It's a big improvement. I don't dislike this episode. It does what it needs to, and there's some cool stuff that happens, but it's like, boy, you can tell this is just a moving the story along episode. Oh, yeah. It's not a bad one. Yeah.

[01:10:06] It's not a bad one by any means. The non, we didn't even talk about the non and Michael conversation, which, you know, was much better than most conversations like that where it's like, I had to, you know, I had to do that. She's like, yeah, I learned about, you know, it was good to see you having a hard time, you know, from non's end of it too. Yeah.

[01:10:31] For the reason that Jonathan Frakes says all good Star Trek works, which is that it has the heart and it has the levity. This episode balances those two things very, very well. Very well. Yeah. And if that's the standard, Jonathan Frakes, also, I want to meet you. I agree. He's so cool. Because this episode has both of those. Yeah. To like a nine or 10 level. Yeah. I wasn't bored. I was never bored.

[01:10:59] And that's my cardinal treks in as when an episode is boring. So, no, it's a good episode. Yeah. Does anybody else have any last thoughts or should we put a soundtrack to this episode? Okay. Let me see. Ethan Peck looks pretty ripped in those tight, shiny pants. No, I don't think I need to say that. Oh, this. I will say that this is episode is the first Star Trek episode production to use specific

[01:11:29] terms, like different sexual orientations, specifically gay and pansexual. Oh, yeah. So, I'll give a throw out to that. Hopefully, Trump doesn't take this off of all media because I said pansexual. Come and pry it from our cold, dead hands. From our cold, dead labia. So, I want to give a shout out to that. This is a big deal. Like, when they say, like, don't be so binary. Like, I fucking love that. She's so sexy in that scene. Like, we are so sexy.

[01:11:58] Well, and Culver's saying, you know, he's gay, right? Like, I remember kind of sitting forward and being like, I think that's the first time they've openly said that. This is the first time. Yeah. Yeah. March 21st, 2019. Star Trek said, gay. And pansexual and binary. And it doesn't, like, it doesn't hit, like, the all-female superhero scene in Avengers Endgame, right?

[01:12:24] Like, because we've spent so much time with these characters that, like, calling it out, it doesn't feel like Discovery is trying to pat itself on the back, right? Like, this is just the characters we know. And we're all thinking the exact same thing. Like, um, Stamets is gay. What is she talking about? Like, it works really, really well. I'm glad you brought that up. And maybe only Philippa could present this to the world in Star Trek because, oh, it's

[01:12:53] the mirror universe, Philippa. Yeah. But it doesn't matter because you always have to have, like, a, oops, we have to say this thing, but it's not the real thing. And it doesn't matter how it gets said. It's still important. And it was really one of my favorite scenes in Star Trek ever was that whole gay scene was so good. I think it was really good. And I think, John, my last note here is, boo, Ash Tyler kissing scene, boo. At least it's not a good kissing scene, right?

[01:13:23] You're right. But that just adds to my boo. Yeah. Also, wash your fucking hair, Ash. Thank you. Well, we needed that kissing scene because it makes my song pick work even better. All right. What you got? Well, let's start us off, Cam. Why don't you go first tonight? Like I told you guys, I think this is my most on the nose pick yet. But, you know, it's a synth power ballad that I'm like, I could just see and feel coming in at the end.

[01:13:50] It matches the energy and emotions, the high drama at the end of this episode. Don't tell a lie. Don't be false and untrue. It all comes back to you. Section 31. Open fire. Yep. They fire on the red angel. On my burning heart. Oh, more than just her heart is burning out there on the planet. I've never been lucky in love. My defenses are down. A kiss or a frown. I can't survive on my own. Send me an angel.

[01:14:20] Send me an angel. Yeah. Send me an angel. I know. So on the nose. But, oh my God, I want to score the end of this episode to that song. So hard. Nice. Cam's hard right now, everybody. Great. It's in your eyes. It's making you cry. That's Michael out on the planet. Cam, that's how I felt last week with my song pick. So I fully understand it. And it's a great pick. Very good pick, sir. Thank you. Bobby, you want to go next? Do I have to sing? No, you don't have to.

[01:14:50] Not at all. Well, I'm going to. Sweet. Yeah. I had two choices, but I'm going to choose, and it's probably so obvious. I'm going to choose The Scientist by Coldplay. Ooh. Okay. Come up to meet you. Tell you I'm sorry. You don't know how lovely you are. I'm going to skip some things. Tell me your secret. Ask me your questions. I mean, I'm not going to sing all this out. But if you listen to all the lyrics or read the lyrics.

[01:15:20] It's a great song. Nobody said it was easy to not join Section 31. It's very specific. Nobody said it was easy. No one ever said it would be this hard. We're going back to Picard. No, not Picard. We're going back to wherever. Yep. But if you read the lyrics, I forget. That's a good pick. Thank you. I like that. I haven't heard that song in way too long. Jesse, you want to go next or you want to go last?

[01:15:49] I can go next. That's one of my favorite things about this whole exercise we do with the songs is I'm always like, God, I don't listen to that again. It's been too long or for the first time in a lot of cases. I struggled here because I was like, well, obviously it's Mother by Danzig. And then I was like, maybe not exactly, but it would work if I went for it. Tell your daughters not to go flying. I mean, yeah. Like, please give your daughter better life advice.

[01:16:19] But then I was like, well, Ariel's talks about the self-righteous suicide of angels by System of a Down. And I was like, oh, you know, that works too. But Where I Landed is a song called Angels Fall by Breaking Benjamin. And it has lyrics like, when angels fall with broken wings, I can't give up. I can't give in. I walked the path that led me to the end. Remember, I'm caught beneath with nothing left to give.

[01:16:47] I try to face the fight within. Like, this is written about Michael Burnham and her journey through time in a badass, Tron-inspired, daft punk, Kerrigan from StarCraft robot suit from the future. Wow. Wow. Damn, I wish we had to see her on Light Cycle in this. Yeah. It's a good pick. Mine, I had a hard time. I figured mine out like 20 minutes before we started recording.

[01:17:17] Because I was like, this episode, just there's so many different things that happen. Like, usually, you know, I try and pick one story to focus on for my song. And eventually, like, evidently with this pick, it's obviously Michael. But, you know, there's some stuff for Colburn here. Like, I know that you've been damaged. Your soul has suffered such abuse. For Michael, like, I know your life is empty. You hate to face this world alone. So you're searching for an angel, someone who can make you whole.

[01:17:44] And, you know, when it comes down to it, just nobody can save themselves, including yourself. So I'm going to go with save yourself by stabbing westward. Yes! I don't know. I cannot save you. I can't even save myself. So just save yourself. Michael has to save herself then, they think. But obviously, it turns out to be her mom. And, yeah, that song rules. John. Yes!

[01:18:11] This is the closest we've ever been musically, I think, on two songs for the same episode. You chose Breaking Benjamin, I chose him stabbing westward. It's like, oh, we're pretty damn in the same neighborhood. Yeah, buddy. For sure, so. Oh, I'm so here for it. That was good. Bravo. Good choices. Yeah, this is another really great week of music. Like, this is, yeah, solid. This play with Pelias is going to rule. I should have picked my second song, which is also a Pink Floyd song. Time.

[01:18:41] Yeah. Nice. And you run, you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking and racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older, shorter breath, and one day closer to death. Oh! Oh! That's a pitch-perfect Michael impression. That was straight from, that was a sound clip. Oh, yeah. That was totally a sound clip. Hope we don't get a copyright strike.

[01:19:11] That was perfect. Right? All right. All right. Well, this has been a fun discussion of a, what I thought would be kind of a hard episode to discuss. So, thanks, guys. Yeah, I... It's a big episode. A lot of things coming next, right? It's setting up. A lot of things coming next. A setter in volleyball, like, boop! Except there's, like, 12 balls in the air. That's what, like, Discovery likes to do. Like, 12 setters and, like, one spiker going, which one? Which one? Which one?

[01:19:39] Michael is gonna come crashing down through time to spike that ball directly into Section 31's face. I'm so here for it. I love the finale of this season. I cannot wait to get there. I want to say, obviously, again, thank you to all our callers, especially for helping us make this show on essentially zero notice. I put the call out for this last night. And I'm so happy that we had as many calls as we did. Thank you so much.

[01:20:04] And I want to say thank you to Bobby from tumbling through time from the Green Shirt podcast to come over and help us talk about this. I always love your perspective. This is so much more fun. I know, isn't it? Wait, what? Thanks, Jesse. It's such a pleasure to be on the more popular podcast. Just joking. I just, I love... Cam is right there. No, I mean... I want both. Yeah. Because I'm both, though. Yeah.

[01:20:33] I mean, I love John. I love Cam. I love you, Jesse. I just, I'm grateful. Thank you for having me. And I didn't make any dick jokes. So that's pretty good. Oh, we'll have to get to that. I thought I got labia at one point. Oh, well, labia's not a dick. You guys, like, go back to fourth grade sexual ed, okay? We'll have to have you back on so that... Fourth grade, yeah. So that you can make some dick jokes. There you go. Like, pick an episode where there's like, that's a lot of dick jokes. Yeah. And I'm... Or maybe get Marcy. I mean, I don't know.

[01:21:03] Anyways, it's great to be here. Thank you so much. Yep. Well, Jesse, you mentioned our callers. How can folks call if they want to lend their voices to our next episode of Disco Inferno? I'm so glad that you asked, John. This is my favorite question to answer. The easiest way to add your voice to the OpenPike Night Stage is to just go to openpike.com. There's a little tab on the bottom that says record your message. You click on that. It pops up with a button that says begin recording. And you can record right there on the website. All you need is a phone or a microphone.

[01:21:32] But, you know, if you prefer to edit and put together your MP3 like our friend Platty, who cut out all of his intervening breaths to fit his Jonathan Frakes call together, you can do that and email us the file at openpike at gmail.com. And hey, if you need somebody to hang out with on the not shitty part of the internet, come follow at OpenPike on Blue Sky. We'll talk memes. It'll be great. Fantastic.

[01:21:59] And Cam, you and Bobby, this episode drops soon. But the next episode of OpenPike Night drops on First Contact Day. What are you and Bobby doing for First Contact Day? Yeah, we'll be dropping our episode on First Contact where we get more pokey things than eyeballs and a lot of talking. Jonathan Frakes, you'll get your, you'll be saked with Frakes. Absolutely. Does that work? I don't know. Come check us out at GreenShirt87 or GreenShirt Podcast.

[01:22:28] Yeah, our Generations episode will be dropping before this one, I think. So it should already be out. Come check us talking about that with Abby Summer, who you heard tonight. And lots of, lots of TNG talk. I think it'll be slaked with Frakes. Slaked. Yeah, slaked. I think you're right. Slaked. Slaked with Frakes. Yeah. Here we go. That rolls off the tongue. Yeah. Anyway, it's been a long night and the OpenPike Night crew has to go find our moms hidden in weird suits of armor around. I don't know.

[01:22:56] We got to go look for ourselves and find our moms instead. So. I'm going to find my greasy ex and make out with them before. There you go. Choke out myself. That's what I'm going to do. So be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here. You can go anywhere you want.