Disco Inferno 11 - "Perpetual Infinity"

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds podcast where your personal logs are the prime directive. Thank you once again for joining us for our Disco Inferno coverage where we watch Discovery Season 2 and talk about each episode. This is Episode 11, Perpetual Infinity. Joining me tonight are my co-hosts, the man who's here because we definitely have his mom in prison down in the basement.

[00:00:48] Jesse Bailey. She's gonna figure a way out of there eventually, but right now she's trying to lull us all into a false sense of security. And the man who feels like he knows chess so much better because he just watched pieces get moved into place for something later for 48 minutes, Cameron Harrison. Feels like we've been watching this season for Perpetual Infinity, guys. It's been a long time. Tonight we are here to watch whatever comes between point eight and point eight.

[00:01:18] A and point B in Star Trek Discovery. It's not a bad episode, but let's go ahead and talk about the things that happen in Perpetual Infinity. Well, I'll start off by saying I am a sucker for like a good flashback in the episode directly following a big cliffhanger reveal. So, you know, coming in and seeing this flashback of little Burnham and her parents and her mom who we just met at the end of the last episode. I thought that was great.

[00:01:45] Right. I wish and I feel like they would have done that nowadays. Done this nowadays is if it this entire episode had just been a flashback of what Michael's mom had been up to because her story is really fascinating and they do a lot of hand wavy for like what she knows and what she's been doing. And like, no, show us that. That would be great. I'm going to get more into it later. But for now, I'm just leaving it as that I wish this episode had been had been Mama Burnham flying around time.

[00:02:13] You're absolutely right. I just finished watching the new Devil May Cry anime on Netflix and like this the third to last episode. There's like a big confrontation with the main bad guy. And then the second to last episode, 100% flashback all the way through to tell you how the bad guy got there, like what his motivations are. Because it's the 2020. That's how TV works. These. Yes. I mean, most series do that. That's like, yeah, that actually would have really fit in in this season of Discovery.

[00:02:42] That would have made sense. It kind of felt like they didn't. For some reason, they were like, we can't just do a whole flashback. But I think I agree that it probably would have worked. It would have worked better than the random Klingon episode we got at the beginning of the season. Well, that's going to eventually matter. But you're right. Because when it comes up, you're kind of like, did we need that episode? Like the Klingons do make another appearance, but it's not really based on what we saw in the episode about them.

[00:03:11] So like, I think I'm right there with you. But they also could have just done like two slightly longer episodes, put the first half of this on the end of the last one, the second half on the beginning of the next one. And it would have been okay. But like, I don't know. There's still plenty to like in this episode. And like my number one piece of evidence for that is that Leland gets his ass kicked and so does Ash Tyler. Are you so glad that Ash is alive at the end of the episode though, Jesse?

[00:03:39] You're so glad when they said we have a life form and it's Ash Tyler. I could just see Jesse breathing a sigh of relief. This is proof that all AI is bad. Okay. Like, yes, it's bad at writing your term papers. It's bad at coming up with summaries for things. It can't draw hands. Although I hear it's getting better at that. I wouldn't know. I don't use it. But you had a clean shot at Ash Tyler and you don't kill him? He lives to die another day.

[00:04:09] But he's like the biggest risk to your, he literally walked in on your like evil mission briefing and you don't kill him. You just injure him grievously. Like what is that? This is the dumbest AI. It deserves to be. Well, that's the point. It knows it's a dumb AI. I mean, it is the pack led of AIs because it's like, you know, we need this, the sphere data to be strong. And it is an inept AI. Absolutely.

[00:04:36] But it knows enough about humanoid anatomy to take over an entire body, but not enough to kill one with a like sharp weapon. Are you kidding me? Like he should be dead. I thought he was dead. It was a good fake out for me. Yeah. This AI, like it doesn't even know that it's reached sentience or what, what did the, what is it? Um, consciousness. Uh, he says, and I know he's lying, but I fear it will attain consciousness.

[00:05:05] Don't, aren't they all under the impression that control has reached consciousness? Isn't that what we established like two episodes ago? I'm confused. What's going to happen when it gets the sphere data? Every episode, it says something different. I mean, consciousness and sentience are two different things. Uh, could you please explain the difference to me, Jesse?

[00:05:22] Okay. So a dog is conscious, right? Sure. A fish is conscious, but like, uh, sentience, I think sapience might be the word we're looking for. I can double check on this, but say those are more, those are closer to like, um, you can comprehend things like before they happen. Like you can use deductive reasoning. You can do things to help yourself later. But they use the word consciousness. Knowledge experience. It's going to reach consciousness.

[00:05:52] I think it's, I think it's sloppy because it, it already knows that it's a thing. Yeah. It's self-aware. It's doing its own thing. It's gone rogue. Right. I thought they just, they just didn't want to get smarter or know more about.

[00:06:04] Well, and I think that it's probably a hand wavy and be like kind of the writers saying like, do we need to say sentience a hundred times or sapience a hundred times? Can we just shortcut that with consciousness? And I agree that it's probably not the correct use of that word, but like it is like the capabilities of this AI are so completely out of whack with what it should be able to do.

[00:06:30] Like it can use nanites to control a humanoid body, but can't fill in the blank. Right. Like how, how is this happening? Like, I don't know. I will get into it, but I was glad to see Leland getting messed up and I was glad to see Ash Tyler get messed up. That's like most of my whole point. Okay. I want to check in guys with, with us. Where do we stand with Leland? Where are we at? Well, where did we leave off with him? Justice for Leland?

[00:06:58] This is, this is, no, that's where you left off with him in the bottom wall. He's kind of a bad, because I forgot he had been, got completely taken over. Like he's the bad guy from here on out, but what, what are we mad at him for at this point? Because when you sacrifice your ideals to achieve a goal, this is what you get. You get taken over by a future sentient AI.

[00:07:21] I mean, he's kind of a badass there in that little torture table. I mean, he's, he's trying to resist control. He's, he's doing a good job until like he gets a bunch of needles in the back of his neck. Yeah. Until he gets literally bored. Yeah. Like thrown. I mean. Okay. And he says, and the AI tells him struggle is pointless. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:39] Which is exactly resistance is futile. So I have to ask, was there some version of this season's scripting process where they're like, let's do a Borg origin or is it a hundred percent meant to be a red flag or a red herring? Because like, it's so exact. Yeah. Like, yeah. I was like, which thing is it? They, they definitely improve their branding if it is proto Borg, but I, I, I, yeah, I don't know. I was wondering if at the time people were like, Oh, a hundred percent. This is going to be a board Borg origin story.

[00:08:09] That's exactly how I felt. There was a giant sphere full of stuff. There was, there were nanites, there were robots, they were threatening life. I was like, this has to be a Borg. And then at the end they go, well, what if instead of destroying all sentient life, we integrate ourselves into all sentient life on a lower time, a longer time scale so that our domination is still complete, but is like, people are less likely to time travel to stop us about it. Like, although that actually works fine. They will time travel to stop us.

[00:08:38] Well, yeah, well, it's the other way around, but yes, the board time traveled first, but so we had to just stop them. They also following that line that he's, he also says something about evolving and evolution that was very similar to assimilating. And I was like, eh, they know what they're doing. But to your point, I'm not sure which goal they had in mind.

[00:08:59] Yeah. I like, to me, it comes across as sloppy because they know that that connotation is going to get made by people who've seen previous star Trek, but I could see the argument for this is us tricking the people who have seen previous star Trek. Yeah. But in that case, it's like, well, you already bit like seven rhymes, seven of rhymes before you got to where you're going.

[00:09:26] So like, did you really trick us or did you kind of lie to us? I don't know what the right word is. Honestly, I think they were just kind of like, oh, this will be cute. It's kind of an Easter egg for getting who their audience is. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, it's hard. I'd almost like to ask a writer just like, hey, did this get changed? Like, can you tell me if it got changed? Was it going to be Borg? And then you were like, that relies too much on previous knowledge.

[00:09:53] But I, it's not that big of a deal because I get to see Ash Tyler get stabbed. So. I'm going to go ahead and get it out of the way. I'll say it for the whole episode. Sonequa Martin-Green can motherfucking act. Holy yeah. Her heart out. Shit. Yeah. Do you think Sonequa Martin-Green knew what she was getting into when she signed on to play the role of Michael?

[00:10:18] Did she know like how much emotional trauma she was going to have to open up in herself to play this role? I don't think so because TV now isn't written how it was. Right. Where it's like, here's, you know, they don't have like a series Bible. Like we've heard there's no series Bible for Strange New Worlds. So like you don't get that rundown as an actor, I'm assuming.

[00:10:46] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:11:10] This is where we get like a lot of reasoning behind why she is the way that she is, why she feels so confident when she is, when she thinks she's correct. Like it's not arrogance. It's like a demonstrated pattern of behavior for her that like if she analyzes enough of the data, she will arrive at the correct conclusion. Yeah.

[00:11:32] But I don't know, man. I am kind of surprised that she has not been in a thousand very popular things. Like she was in the Space Jam sequel. Like what? That is such a waste of Sonequa Martin-Green. And like, I mean, I assume because I haven't seen it. She probably knocks it out of the park in that movie. But like, give her a movie where she gets to do the heavy lifting. It sounds like My Dead Friend Zoe is that movie. Yeah.

[00:11:59] I just saw the first little teaser for it popped across my feed recently. Yeah. A lot of positive thoughts that I'm hearing around that. Shout out to Tom Tran, former guest who is also in the movie for what he describes as like eight seconds.

[00:12:13] But yeah, that opening scene with her is, I mean, one, a powerhouse performance from her, John Bold. You are absolutely, it's incredible. And it's really well written. I really like that opening scene. I think it's done really well. Like everyone says what you would kind of expect them to say in that situation. It's not one of those where like, oh, we have to be clever with the plot or like, we want this dramatic reveal later. No, she wakes up. This is how they would reveal the information to her. That is how she would react.

[00:12:39] But yeah. Question. Is it good that they had Culber mention, hey, I know I've only been back on duty for five minutes, but here's my analysis. Or is that kind of cheating? I was fine with it. I was fine with it. Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to see Culber. Yeah. Okay. And I ask because like, again, I've never tried to like sit down and write a story for a screen. So I don't know if that would be considered like, you know, what's the word for it? Like a trick? Exposition dump or. Yeah.

[00:13:09] They fit it in organically enough. Yeah. Yeah. So Cameron, I know that usually you're the one with the controversial opinions about, you know, the Ba'ul did nothing wrong or like. Leland is a standup guy. Look, I know he was going to mind wipe Spock. That wasn't great. Other than that, I don't know if he's done anything terrible. Or Britney Spears owes Justin Long sex. But I think it's my turn to maybe have a controversial opinion here.

[00:13:37] And I don't know if that will be the case, but I kind of feel bad for Gabrielle Burnham. Like, yes, she is a difficult person to deal with for Michael in this episode. And she seems a little heartless in a few of her scenes. But like she was trying to bend the universe to her will to save her lost child. For 20 years, she's been doing that. Yeah. And she's trying to find somebody she loves.

[00:14:04] And then not only does she lose her anyway, but she finds out she's literally alone in the galaxy. Like talk about emotional whiplash. I mean, I really do feel for her. And you can see at points in this episode that it is killing her to talk to Michael this way. But she is absolutely doing it for a reason. Like as a parent, you know, sometimes you have to tell your child things they don't want to hear. Because it really will benefit them in the long run.

[00:14:33] But like I was really, really feeling for her in this episode at least half of the time. Well, before I respond, I think a lot of our callers probably have stuff to say about this. So let's hear from one of them to get their perspective on Gabrielle Burnham. Here is Melanie. Hi, guys. Perpetual Infinity, an interesting name. Well, it finally gives us some answers. Like who is the Red Angel? But we still don't know who sent the signals.

[00:15:02] Pike has more of a backseat. But of course, I like every scene he's in. I'm focusing on the microphone now, though. The way you tries to tell her it's her mother. Michael's world is crumbling again. At first, she's not allowed to see her. She's a tough nut and is totally committed to defeating control before it kills all life in the universe. And it's all about the sphere data. Spock's dyslexia is the reason he could process the visions of the future. And then Michael convinces Pike to go down and talk to her.

[00:15:32] That's good. Why is control such an a-hole? Like, what did we ever do to deserve this hate? And that's why we have a stop the end of all life as we know it and ask questions later situation. It becomes clear that Michael's mom can't stick around for several reasons. She has a mission to complete and control seems set to kill her if she does stay in the present. Before she goes, however, Michael finally gets the closure she deserves. But that her mom has been there for all of Michael's biggest moments?

[00:16:02] Really? That is somewhat rather creepy. And then we have the final three episodes. When I first watched these, I was sitting on the edge of my seat. They were so good. Oh boy. And Pike, damn it. But we're gonna talk about them soon, I guess. Live long and prosper, Melanie. Damn it, Melanie, you stole one of my jokes. I was gonna be like, so she was there for all of the big moments in Michael Burnham's life. All of them?

[00:16:30] I'm not gonna touch that one with a thousand year long time pull. That's enough. But how was she there? What was she talking about? What? Yeah. What? Because like... Because... There's a lot of hand wavy with what... Oh, so much hand wavy with that last... Yeah. It does seem that like... Either she's not aware that using the suit generates a signal, or... The signals don't get generated until... Spoiler alert, the end of this season.

[00:16:56] Well, I assume we're gonna learn about the signal, because they make a big deal about that. We do. Yeah, we do. We do. I'm just... I'm trying not to... That I actually remember from this season. Well, more... And I know that we have people listening that have not watched this season yet, so I'm trying not to give everything away. Well, I haven't watched the rest yet, so yeah. Yeah. But my point being like, it would appear that when she's using this suit, it's not... That's not what's generating the signal, right? Because otherwise there'd be like...

[00:17:24] At the start of the season, they say, we've got these signals, and we've never seen anything like it. But if just using the suit were causing those signals, they'd have like a hundred points of data from all the times Gabrielle went back to watch Michael Burnham graduate. I think what Cam's trying to say is, you would have noticed the giant portal opening up during the graduation ceremony and sucking her into the sky. Thank you. I'm pretty sure that's what Cam is getting. John, because she talks about being in the transporter room. I'm like, you're physically there.

[00:17:52] When you go back in time, you're physically there. We've seen it. It's a really cool shot. We've talked about how it's an amazing entrance. Now, here's my only thing. One thing that I really like about this is that every time we see one of Gabby's logs... I'm going to call her Gabby because we're cool like that. Every time we see one of Gabby's logs, we see the little hovering camera drones around. We see the Star Trek cameras! Yes. I like that because it's the first time Star Trek has ever addressed. How do we have every angle of every event that happens all the time?

[00:18:22] I don't know why they're there. And also, guys, the reason you have that dynamic camera movement is to kind of hide effects. Yes. So it's kind of cool when you just see a static security camera footage of something cool happening, like something cinematic happening. Like with the Spock footage, I think it's great that it's just... That's cool looking. They could have shot all this from just a static camera. Not the stuff in the future, I guess.

[00:18:49] But I think that's the answer is that she needs something to keep logs in the future. And it's almost like a suggestion that this is happening to other people too. Like this is a technology they had when Michael was a kid, right? So like it's possible that what Gabby is saying is, I watched all the video logs from your graduation. I watched the video logs of when you first got to the Enterprise. That's a stretch. I was there in that I've seen it.

[00:19:15] But like, because you're right, without that, it's like, no, you were not there. We established... That room did not explode into a giant time portal. And then like, yeah, so the Terralisium she kind of mentions, why did she save the Terralisium people? Just as kind of an experiment to see if she could change the future? Why then? Was she just like, I'm going to go back to World War III and find some people to save? Well, and that's one of the things where I'm like, I could see where you maybe don't love Gabby Burnham because she's like,

[00:19:45] I'm going to alter this entire colony's worth of people's lives just to see if it's even possible for me to do. Well, she saved their lives, but... She did, but she's kind of running experiments on people like they're rats in a cage, despite all their... Well, if you're going to run experiments on me if you're saving me from imminent death, but sure, yeah. But it's also possible that what she's talking about, like, you know, when you change something, this happens. Time is a living thing.

[00:20:11] So it's possible that she did go physically back and watch all those events, but those timelines get terminated. And then she went back and killed someone to terminate the timeline. Right. I feel like this is less of an experiment, more of like a millennium, the movie Millennium type thing where it's like, well, we know they're about to die or a, you know, Sound of Thunder. Like, yeah, it's, we know it's going to die and that what you do will have no impact. It's like, I could take them and help ourselves in another time kind of thing.

[00:20:40] Yeah, she did to see if she could stop control. Do I have the ability to change this future I've discovered? Well, and to John's point, she seems to just understand that like, yeah, I can go do whatever I want because it all ends in control taking over. So like, I'm not breaking the timeline. I'm not creating. But it seems kind of weird. Like, I'm going to go save this random people I had no connection to. Like, did she just pick a date randomly just to see if I could? Well, just try to stop control. Do that. You want to talk about picking a date randomly?

[00:21:10] She says before she jumps the first time, she goes, I'm just going to go back a couple minutes. How do you screw up the controls on your own time suit that you just built so bad that instead of going back in time a couple minutes, you go forward into the future a thousand years? Well, I think it's probably sort of a causal loop or a paradox of like, yeah, that she was always, she had to get to 950 years in the future.

[00:21:36] So like, it's one of those, yes, it's the first time using the suit for her in this time. That doesn't mean that we're getting into primer territory here. Go watch the movie primer and you'll, you'll understand. Okay. But if you can only go back in time to when you first turned the machine on, why is her anchor point 900 years in the future? Because he rented the storage unit for that long and brought another machine into the machine with him. I mean, that's time travel stuff.

[00:22:05] I'm just going to accept that when they tell me it. But so my other hand wavy thing is she knows a lot about control. Suddenly she's like, so control did this and then it did this and it's learned this and this is its goal. And I'm like, when did you, how did you learn all this? We, you can only go back in time for 30 seconds. Well, I don't, I think they established how long she's around in the last episode. It's not long. Like she's not doing reconnaissance. How does she find out this information? And how does she know who Spock is?

[00:22:34] Like, obviously she went there, but the way she talks about Spock is like, she's met him. And like, it could just be that she's familiar with all of this because she's seen it a hundred times. Yeah. I mean, I just think that was a later log. I don't ask the most Star Trek of questions. Where has she been pooping? Because she keeps getting yanked to a future where there's like no breathable air on the planet. And she has to be in that suit at all times. She found a planet, a class and planet to live on. Yeah. I'll tell you the answer to that wherever she feels like.

[00:23:03] Because there is nobody else around. What are you going to do? Say no? Is nobody going to judge you? Like, this is what I'm saying. You try all the different things. Like, I'm going to poop into space. I'm going to poop in the atmosphere. I'm going to poop on this planet. All of this would have been so cool to see in a 45 minute story. Yes. It should have just, yeah. Like, her figuring this out and answering these questions. And yeah, her discovering the world taken over by control.

[00:23:27] Like, I think if we had seen more of that, this whole season would feel like the stakes would feel more real. Because it is, right now, it is all very theoretical. Like, well, we know it's going to destroy the universe. It hasn't done it yet. Yeah. Yeah. I just, you're right that there are pieces of this where you have to go, it's fine. It's a sci-fi. But like, I completely agree that like, give me the Gabby Burnham cut. Yeah. Like, I would totally be here for that. Like, I think it would be a great episode.

[00:23:57] And it would really kind of, I think it would make the first conversation she has with Michael where she's just totally stonewalling her. I think it would make that more effective and it makes her more sympathetic of a character. Like, if we watched her try to save Michael 50 times and Michael always dies, like, it would work better than her saying like, I've seen you die 100 times. Because it's like, that just comes across as like ice cold. Well, that's, I mean, to everything you were just saying about defending Gabrielle, Jesse.

[00:24:26] I agree. Like, I agree with your points. And I think seeing her story would have made it work more like you were just saying. Because the problem is, is like, I totally buy her attitude towards Michael on that middle scene. It's just like, we had just seen her log saying like, oh God, I just want to see Michael. I long to be there. I can't stay there long enough. It keeps pulling me back. I'm trying. And so, yeah, just having her kind of explain it later.

[00:24:51] It doesn't feel the same as if we had watched it and we knew, we knew how she had gotten from point A to point B. We're missing that connective tissue. Well, and my issue with that, the log where Michael is, the scene where Michael is watching her logs is that it goes like, log 39, log 41, log 43. Like, no, give me like log 39, then log 164, then log 827.

[00:25:16] You know, like really drive home because as it is, we're only seeing the start and end point of her journey. And I sort of get it. Like, that's kind of the point of this character is that she has two points in her life that make the entire rest of her life matter. But like, I don't know. I just, there were some small things where I was like, you know what? If I was a writer, here's what I would have done. But again, not a writer. But as a viewer, I was like, I kind of want more from Gabby.

[00:25:45] And I gotta just point this out. Ash Tyler is the exact opposite of Gabby Burnham, who's trying to save all sentient life in the galaxy. He puts all sentient life in the galaxy at risk because he doesn't really feel quite comfortable telling Leland no. Like, come on, dude, you're in section 31. Disobeying orders and standing up to superiors should be SOP for all of you. And he's just like, well, he did give me a second chance. Like, I hate Ash Tyler so much, you guys.

[00:26:15] Well, but you do love our caller. So let's hear from another one. Here is Mark. Hi, OpenPike Night Engineer Mark here. And we're up to an episode that's a full turning point for the season. Finally, all the answers on the Red Angel. Now, am I the only one that got serious Borg vibes with Leland when he was assimilated by Control? There's really no other way to put that one. The one beef I have is the middle of this episode is a whole bunch of clunky

[00:26:44] and setting up for what is the beginning of the end of this arc of discovery. More jumping around than the Strange New Worlds trailer, and it makes it easily forgettable for me. But then it all comes together with first Georgiou kicking some serious ass against the Leland thing. And then the raw humanity of Burnham and her mom as it really all falls apart around them. It's so moving. Serious whiplash there.

[00:27:12] And then it all wraps up with Burnham and Spock sitting down to try again at chess at the end, which was a nice touch as it said much about both of them. So, the roller coaster ride will continue. And as always, live long and prosper. I knew it! I knew it, John Bowles! Fine. Fine. They finished the chess game! Five fucking episodes later. So many episodes later. John, do you think chess is a quick game? Have you ever played chess? I mean, you're right.

[00:27:41] It's three times as long as a normal chess game. That's true. It is quicker than risk, to be fair. Yeah, that's yeah. And then Axis and Allies is. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Engineer Mark is totally right, though, about the jumping around and the Strange New World Season 3 trailer, which you can go back in our feed and check out our coverage of, because oh my gosh, we had a ton of fun doing that, and we cannot wait for Season 3 of Strange New World so that we can get back to talking about episodic stories and not a nine-hour movie.

[00:28:08] I love Discovery, but it is absolutely a nine-hour movie, or a 14-hour movie in this case, I guess. Closer to probably 12 or 13. But yes, the middle part of this feels like so much setup that you know they're doing. Right? Like, should you as a viewer be aware of why an episode exists on a conscious level? Like, shouldn't you just be able to sit and be told a story and be like, I love this story,

[00:28:38] I want to know what happens next, as opposed to, okay, now they're telling me what's going to happen next, or they're putting pieces in place. Like, and the chess metaphor is... Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very, like, level one metaphor, right? Like, I'm not, again, I'm not mad at this episode, there were just things where I was like, I'm watching Star Trek, I'm smart enough for this, you don't have to hold my hand all the way through this. Well, I don't know, I mean, like, what are they setting up? What are you talking about?

[00:29:07] Okay, so, spoiler alert, Cam, time crystals, they're setting up time crystals. I mean, there's a little bit of foreshadowing with that. I mean, they set up the time crystals last episode. They did, but they're giving you even more time crystal stuff here. You get to see exactly... Now they have a reason to have to go find time crystals, because they also set up the big villain, the now big villain of the rest of the season with Leland, and it's like, oh, yeah, he can make big guns out of little guns and shoots a hole through the

[00:29:35] the Angel's chest, which was a cool, like, that is what Star Trek guns are supposed to look like. Come on. And they're kind of just personifying the villain they've been skating around this whole time, but, like, point being, they're giving you direct access points to the rest of the story, like, here's how a time crystal works, here's what the suit does, Michael and Spock are fine, they're going to plan. They don't mention time crystals this episode. What? They do, in the very beginning, when she's putting the suit together.

[00:30:05] That's one of the first words, you're right. Yeah. And at the end, when she's like, there's no time crystal, there's no suit, there's no... Right. They do mention them a couple times. Okay. And her saying, I don't know what signals you're talking about, actually is explicitly a setup for the next three episodes. I mean, every episode does. I guess, like, it's true, not a lot happens this episode. You guys are, everyone's right about that, 100%. But, I mean, it is a big episode. It's the episode we find out who the Red Angel is and what the Red Angel has been doing.

[00:30:33] Like, that's what this episode is. And that's something we've been waiting for, for nine episodes. And like you said, they should have just focused on that. Yes. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think they'll kind of sidebarred. And yeah, we can talk about that later too. And I think that's the issue, is that they're implying so much has happened in an episode where not very much actually happens.

[00:30:58] But like, I will defend the points that like, yes, they have to set this stuff up, so I completely get it. And I think they do a good job of it. I like seeing Georgiou come in here with like, excuse me, I'm your mom. What are you talking about? Like, I will go down there and talk to her right now. And I love the scenes between Georgiou and Gabrielle. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Very, very good scenes. Also, Jesse, I'm sorry. I love the scenes between Georgiou and Ash. Like that coupling was so good.

[00:31:27] And I wanted more of this episode made me so sad for what we finally got out of the section 31 movie. I was like, this is what it could have been. It could have been like her and Ash being buddies and quippy and her kicking fucking ass. I would just say that she elevates those scenes and he's definitely in them. But you know, you know who would never give up on Michael Burnham? Amanda. That's true. Why is Amanda not in this scene yelling at both of his moms?

[00:31:59] She would absolutely chew them both out. Like, and I would be here for it all the way. And then Cornwell comes in as like the cool aunt, the wine aunt or something. Like all of you, all of you are wrong. But you know, like as I was watching it, one thing that I did really appreciate is that like a lot of this episode revolves around scenes that are exclusively women talking to each other.

[00:32:24] And at no point was I like, oh, they had to do like, you know, they felt compelled to give a scene. Yeah, exactly. I was like, this is just really well constructed to make this all fit completely organically. But I don't know, Cam. Like I just, to me, the Ash Tyler character is not interesting. Like the premise of him is not interesting to me. Past season one. Then give us a section 31 movie with Gabrielle and Georgiou. Sure. Yeah.

[00:32:54] Oh, that would have been cool. Yeah. Happy with all of that. I'm just much better with Ash this season than last season. Last season was a fucking hot turd. I mean. Okay. But enough with that. Vogue was cool. And like Sonia Sohn has what it takes to stand up to Michelle Yell. Like in a scene like that, like they picked, they cast her very well. Just makes me want to go watch The Wire again.

[00:33:18] And we now know where Michael got her single tier proclivities was absolutely from her biological mom. And her savior complex. Like I was just watching. I was like, oh shit. She's Michael. I'm always right. I know I'm right. I have to save the universe. It has to be me. Don't save me. Whatever you do, don't give me what I really truly want out of life. That wouldn't be good. Which I think is, I think it's good writing.

[00:33:46] Because you're realizing that as it's happening, you're like, oh, this is Michael. Like this may as well be an older Michael as opposed to a completely separate character, right? Because they share all the most important traits. And I kind of like how her dad sort of gets kind of glossed over. Yeah, he was great. But like really, I was really just trying to save you in the universe. Her dad died, right? He's there. I think the coagons killed him, yeah.

[00:34:12] Because, well, she keeps saying something about like, yeah, I'm going to come and get you and your dad. There's talk about her dad that made me very confused. She's trying to save them both. But like, I think what I actually think works really well about that is the like double just emotional gut punch that Michael takes of like, oh, you're telling me my mom's alive? Does that mean my dad's alive too? And it's like, no, he's not. No, no. He's very, very dead.

[00:34:41] Yeah, he got Uncle Owen and Aunt Perude. Sorry. Yeah, exactly. I do. Mark talked about, he brought up again how Leland was Borgified and sure. But he also gets Darth Vaderified because Ash stumbles across him in his little Darth Vader chamber, which I thought was another reference I took out of Leland. And it's also another point in the control is dumb column. Like, really? You're doing this in the middle of a well-lit room? Yeah. Like on a slab? Without locking the door? Yeah.

[00:35:10] Yeah, dude, do it in the bathroom where nobody's going to just burst through the door. Like, hey, Leland, is your face made of nanites? Just a second. I'm still flushing. Like that would work. That has worked on humans for centuries. I don't know why the control AI did not just give that a shot. Like this whole episode is about why not just the bathroom? I'm coming to realize. Between this and Gabby. All right. Well, let's hear from the caller. Here is Katie. Speaking of the bathroom.

[00:35:39] Oh, wait, no. Hey, hi. It's Katie. So this might be a weird take, but this episode felt very filler to me. It might just be because it was kind of a tame episode, despite all of the emotions that Michael was going through. We weren't getting 10,000 things coming at us all at once. It's not really a complaint.

[00:36:03] Just it was quite the shift in pace, and I wasn't really expecting it. A couple of things that I did really just catch my eye, I suppose, in this. I, for one, would really like to know what Tilly's favorite law of physics is, because honestly, Tilly is adorable, and I think she deserves to get to geek out about laws of physics whenever she feels like.

[00:36:30] There was an Admiral Cornwell mention, which, you know, made me happy. The fact that she wasn't in this episode did not. Bit of a waste. Spock, at one point, just goes, I like science. And you know what, Spock? I also like science. I agree. I feel that.

[00:36:55] I don't know what Tyler is doing with his spying, because, I mean, talk about having private conversations in incredibly public places. The man is talking about spying on the people that can overhear the conversation he is having in the middle of a freaking hallway with people walking past.

[00:37:21] Dude, like, I'm not even surprised that you got stabbed by the end of the episode, because if you're going to be that bad of a spy, someone's going to stab you. And I'm not even going to feel bad about it, because... Thank you. Well, because you're Ash Tyler, but also because you're really bad at your job. And finally, Michael's mom is not, to my great surprise, being added to the list of deadbeat Starfleet parents or Star Trek parents. Whichever. We have way too many of those.

[00:37:50] I'm glad that she's not on that list. I'm very sorry for Michael that she's not on that list, and I'm just really sorry for what Michael had to go through with that in general. That part really sucked. All right, that's all I got. Okay, thanks. Bye. Great points all around, Katie. Can we all just agree, Gabrielle Burnham is the opposite kind of parent that Worf is? Yeah.

[00:38:14] She will go to the actual ends of the universe to save her child, and Worf is like, Alex who? But I really like everything you said, and I agree with 90% of it. Here's a nitpick, okay? The term filler episode sort of bugs me, and it's not because I think you're wrong or you've done something bad.

[00:38:38] But like, there is, in my mind and heart, there is no such thing as a filler episode. This is absolutely not a plot episode. It is a character episode, for sure. But like, okay, and maybe like if you're watching Bleach, where there are like 1,500 episodes, yeah, there's gonna be filler episodes. But in a 14 episode season of prestige television, I don't personally feel that it's fair to call it filler.

[00:39:06] They absolutely wrote this how they meant to write it, and they're using it to get us somewhere else. So I think I would go back to it's not a plot episode so much as it is a character episode. So that's kind of the only spot where I'll disagree with you. But everything else you said, 100%, spot on. Gabby rocks. Tyler sucks. Like, this is a very good episode for what we get between all of our characters.

[00:39:31] I mean, to show up and say to legendary Starfleet Captain Pike, you got some shit coming up, but let's not talk about that right now, is like such a flex. I'm surprised he wasn't like, you'd be surprised. It's hair-raising Pike. Hair-raising. He's like, oh, okay. How do we even continue the conversation after that? I know Pike is fucking steel. Jesse, just go watch any of the Netflix Marvel TV series, and you will see filler episodes. Yes, you will.

[00:40:00] Okay, but what does that mean? It's there because they needed an episode? It means they were told to do 14 episodes, but they only had enough story to fill 10. Yep. And there's a whole middle, like four episodes where you're just like, why am I, what's going on? Nothing is moving. Nothing is happening. Okay, that I understand. But here, I would say they probably wrote 17 episodes and were told, cram this into 14. Well, they were probably told how many episodes to... I mean, technically, season one has a filler episode or two, right?

[00:40:29] Because they added some after the fact. I hate to say this. Again, I'll bring up, this is the season where Tilly gets haunted by a ghost alien. That is a filler episode. And then, like, how important is that that happened? Not super important. Well, yeah. Could have been told other ways. But I didn't... It's weird because that's an entirely... It's only there so we can bring Culber back. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's not even a Tilly story. Yep, exactly. That's... I would qualify that as the filler of the season.

[00:40:59] I do like that you brought up Spock also because there are some fun Spock moments in this. And it's like, yeah, you know, like... I like science. I like science. But also the whole, you know, Gabrielle literally just adding to the pile of Spock is the most important person in the galaxy. In the Milky Way galaxy, this Vulcan is the most important ever, apparently. Yeah. And it's like, okay. Yeah. And I totally buy it. Yeah.

[00:41:29] He's really good in that opening scene too. I forget what he says when he comes in, but it's funny. And then Michael... Like, oh, I see you're exactly... You're fine. Yeah. And then he replies with that. It's all good. One other thing about Pike. I do just love his like, I do not get paid enough for this look when Michael comes on the bridge. He's like, what? Everything he has to deal with. Like, okay, fate of the universe, time travel, finally finding out who the Red Angel is. Now I've got like this mother-daughter reunion bullshit. I've got a joke. What is happening? Why? Why me?

[00:41:59] Completely agree. Never had to do this on the Enterprise. Yeah. Yet. Yeah. Because he totally has to do this around Spock at the end of season one. But to answer Katie's question, my guess at Tilly's favorite law of physics is probably the Stefan Boltzmann law, which describes the total energy radiated by a black body as a function of its temperature.

[00:42:26] And I say that because when she realizes dark matter from 10 episodes ago might be of use in this situation. She looks very, very excited. Oh, that's right. Didn't she get smacked in the head by dark matter in this season too? Remember that? Yeah. And she was very excited to capture the dark matter asteroid. Now I'll be 100% honest with you. I don't know if this Stefan Boltzmann law is actually talking about dark matter because I'm not a physicist.

[00:42:53] But, you know, it was, I felt like it was an okay guess on my part. But, I, so they brought up the dark matter and they captured the asteroid. She got infested by a ghost. All this stuff happened. They say we have dark matter. We can solve this problem. And then it just fizzles the fuck out. That whole episode and a half we saw about the dark matter asteroids.

[00:43:22] Like, yeah, nope, that didn't work. It doesn't have unlimited energy, John. It just has a lot. It was a little frustrating. Like, oh, that's right. We did build up to this whole thing. Aren't they planning to use it in the next few episodes? Isn't that what they're going to use to do something? I thought it's what they were going to use to transport Gabrielle out of this. Oh, that's right. You're right. Yeah. And then they just don't. Yeah. You're right. Never mind.

[00:43:50] Also, shouldn't she be completely dead? Because didn't she get sucked through that wormhole not in the suit? Exactly. Where is she pooping? Come on, man. Yeah. Yeah. Her whole, like, she's connected to the suit. That was some techno babble. Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and hear from another call. Here's our friend. Who did I just play? Katie? Here is Grayson. Hey, guys. It's Grayson. Or TV guy Grayson, I guess. Currently very proud to be a contributor to the Trek 365 podcast. Right along with Jesse.

[00:44:19] Why doesn't he put anything on his hot dogs? And Cameron, honestly, it is an honor to be included in that project, especially amongst the likes of y'all. All right. Let's get to this episode. Look, I'm going to be honest. I have never liked the Red Angel. Why call it an angel? In a universe that is so deeply scientific and secular, it feels so out of place in a story that is really about hard technology. A rogue AI.

[00:44:48] I mean, it is ripped from the headlines. So what if we ditch the angel altogether and the confusing time travel? Let's say Burnham's mom isn't stuck in a time loop. She's being held by Section 31 or operating undercover. Yes, there's some mommy-daddy-brother drama to deal with. But ultimately, with the help of her family, Michael devises a plan. Lure Control into Discovery and use the spore drive to jump to a distant region of space like The Void from Voyager.

[00:45:18] Essentially air gapping it, right? The only catch, it's a one-way trip because subspace tachyon anomalies or whatever. But during the jump, Control hijacks the spore drive and reaches into the mycelial network. But the space fungus fights back. It consumes control. That digital entity implodes. Chaos ripples through the shroomiverse and Discovery is flung into the future. No angel. No mysticism.

[00:45:45] Just smart people willing to sacrifice it all and using science to save the galaxy. Okay, rant over. Thanks, y'all. Okay, Grayson, I smell what you're stepping in. But it's not like they really think it's an angel, man. It's a name they're using because it's a humanoid with wings. I get it. I completely get it. And if you don't like the conceit of suit-based time travel, I will say, I love your fix for this.

[00:46:15] I absolutely do. But for me, it's not a problem. I completely get where you're coming from. And I think as close as we get to that being an issue for me is Pike suggesting maybe this really is a divine being. Several episodes back where I was like, come on, he wouldn't do that. I think he was using it to get them to think outside the box, right? Like, hey, challenge your own assumptions on this because you may need to do that to solve this problem.

[00:46:44] But I don't know. What is the term for winged humanoid with powers that appear to be beyond all humans? It's okay with me is what I'm throwing out there. Not only is it okay, I think, with the writers, but I think it's the feature of the writers. Have you heard some of these opening Michael logs they've written in these episodes? Oh, man. They are so overly poetic and flowery.

[00:47:08] They are definitely playing in the whole religion and Alice in Wonderland classic literature. What's the term I'm looking for? Not religious. But I mean, yeah. They're wanting to play in the religious sandbox with symbols and higher meanings beyond just that of technology.

[00:47:27] Well, this episode is also my, like, one of my favorite, absolute favorite gifs to use on the Star Trek community online on Blue Sky. Follow us at OpenPike. Is Michael Burnham, like, almost looking at the camera and saying, hell yeah. And I love that scene. But, like, Spock's literary quote is a little bit Hamlet-fisted before Michael beams down, I think. Yeah, I was like, what? What?

[00:47:56] What? Why did he? Whatever. She said hell yeah and beamed out. It's a great moment. It's a Spock, not Picard. Yeah. Yeah. The other point that I completely agree with you on, Grayson, is getting to contribute to Trek 365. I am very, almost a little bit jealous that I didn't come up with an idea for a daily Star Trek podcast that's exactly 365 seconds long every time.

[00:48:22] And yes, I would also like to thank Isaac for allowing us all in the Star Trek podcasting community to contribute to that. Like, you think of a Star Trek podcast that you like to listen to, they have probably contributed to Trek 365. So go check it out. I always say 365, but then I hear Isaac say 365. So I don't know if one is more proper than the other. But I completely agree with Grayson. Nice. Yeah. It gave me a chance to finally watch The Doomsday Machine, which is an amazing episode of TOS.

[00:48:52] Yeah. Thank you, Isaac. Hell yeah. All right. Well, let's hear from another caller. Here is Abby. Hey, hey, OpenPike. It's Abby Summer from the First Flight podcast. Just popping in to talk a little bit about Perpetual Infinity, which sounds really cool when I phrase it like that. But this is such a beautiful episode. And one of the little details that always gets me is how Michael's mom calls her baby girl. I call my daughters that. And I did before this was out. And it just gets me every time.

[00:49:22] Those moments between them, the ones that are so tough to watch because they're so guarded, the ones that are so open and then they're tough to watch. Watching her fight and talk about how she's always been there, that's a mama moment right there. And I absolutely love it. So this is one that's really hard. I mean, you think a lot about how there's a lot of mothers in Michael's life, whether it's Amanda or her actual mom or Georgiou. And this season really shows a lot of that relationship.

[00:49:51] And I really like that about the season. So there's plenty more to talk about. I'm sure other people will. But that's what I'm going to add to this discussion. So I hope this finds you well. We'll talk soon. Abby knows her Star Trek. Yes, she does. And I completely agree. Thank you for bringing up the moms again. And I'm right there with you. I've been in places public with my daughter, and she'll ask me a question or I'll reply with, yes, princess. And I've had other kids ask me, who is princess?

[00:50:20] And I'm like, that's not her name. I almost never call her by her name. It's princess. It's baby girl. It's chunk. It's sweetheart. I completely agree with you there. Not even a thousand years of bullshit could keep me from infantilizing my child at every opportunity. Yeah, just speaking of the moms real quick, how did Georgiou figure out control was control, that Leland was control? Said the same exact... It was a phrasing. It was a phrasing.

[00:50:51] So what's the connection there? Why would she use the same phrase as control? Because she's been studying control for 20 years. So control uses that phrase a lot? Apparently. So she's talked to control, apparently. Apparently, maybe something? Yeah. Well, she has a lot of data on it, right? Somehow, yeah. So, and she knows, like, for her, she knows that the inflection point is Michael and the sphere data. So she's like... Right.

[00:51:20] It just seems like a weird phrase that, like, because, I mean, that's a trope, right? Like, oh, you said the same thing, now I know. But it was just a weird phrase. I was like, it's not that telling. Like, maybe that's just a literary reference that she doesn't know. Well, I think they've all read Hamlet, Cameron. But you're right that that absolutely could have been more specific of a phrase. Yeah.

[00:51:42] Like, if she had said, like, well, and I guess he doesn't say anything else that control would say directly, except to Ash Tyler, who's lying in a pool of blood. But, like, I did really like the point that Georgiou is the one who figures this out. Like, all of Michael's moms come together over the course of this season to set her on a path that she didn't necessarily know was even an option. Like, Amanda shows up, tells her how to help Spock, says, you have to do this.

[00:52:12] Her actual mom shows up and says, like, here's the deal, you're going to let me do this. And then Georgiou is like, oh, actually, I could at least help you. But it does, again, raise the question of, like, why isn't Leland Control Bot using lethal force on everybody? Using nanobots. Just turn everyone into a nanobot. Or turn your hand into a sword. Like, come on.

[00:52:37] Like, he kills a bunch of Starfleet officers, but then doesn't finish the job with Ash, and then hand-to-hands Georgiou? Like, this is the dumbest AI in the world outside of ChatGPT. It just made me think of the movie Basic with Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta, where it was just one phrase that glued him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And don't forget Giovanni Ribisi. That's right. And Condi Nielsen. There's a hell of a lot of people in that movie, I think. Isn't that the Roshamon movie? Yeah, it's a Roshamon movie.

[00:53:06] Yeah, absolutely. I'm just excited that I know the movie you're talking about for once in my life. Like, oh, I've seen that. You just have to tell the story right. That's all it is. Well, with telling the story right, we always have to get to our final caller. And tonight, that honor goes to our friend, Platy M3. Here he is. Hey, open pike night. This is Platy M3 calling in with my hit shits and giggles. Hit. Yeah. Ash Shiloh got stabbed. Woohoo. Yeah. Also, numbers. Woohoo. So Starfleet has 7,000 ships at this time period.

[00:53:36] And I'm going to assume that 100 years later in TNG era, that's got to be much higher. Makes me feel so much better knowing that only 40 ships were lost at Wolf 359. Not a big number out of that one. Just a big bummer. Oh, and speaking of murder, that Klingon ship that landed at Michael's house was awesome. Shits. How did Michael's mom find out that Control got sphere data and then destroyed the galaxy? Yes. And with literally all life in the galaxy gone and just having her suit, what's she eating? How is she surviving?

[00:54:05] Just going 950 years in the future doesn't make you omnipotent. Another shit. If you watch the interactions with 10-year-old Michael, that looks 14, and her mom, they're the same freaking height. Later, meeting as adults, they're the same freaking height. Guess that vegetarian Vulcan diet was shit to Michael. She never grew up. Final shit. Tyler's alive. Giggles. Now, Philippa says at one point that her mom taught her to survive. Ha ha! Conveniently left out. That advice backfired on her. Oh, Ash Tyler again.

[00:54:33] Seems appalled at committing espionage against another Starfleet ship. What the fuck, dude? Isn't that half the point of Section 31? Yeah. This guy's like a laughingstock in every situation. He can't live on Kronos. He can't follow Section 31 orders. He can't kill a dude and keep him dead. He can't kiss. What a guy to giggle at. And a freaking hate. Platty M3 signing off. Thank you, Platty. Nobody could have put it more succinctly than that. Like, there is nothing redeemable about Ash Tyler. He also cannot shave. I'll throw that in there.

[00:55:02] I'm sure he used one of those little drone robots to do that. He was like, make me look presentable. And they were like, all right, well, let's trim this at least a little bit. But yeah, I think we've talked about at least the end results of eating with Gabby Burnham. But you've got to imagine she was just going back to all her favorite restaurants, stealing whatever, and then taking that to the future with her. Because she knows this timeline doesn't matter. Is she able to do that in the Red Angel? It doesn't seem like she can do much when she goes back in time. Like, she hovers there and then gets sucked back.

[00:55:31] Dude, she has a bring you back to life beam. Like, go steal a sandwich. Maybe. Yeah. Going back to the flashback. That was 600 of the 900 logs. It was just stealing food. And using the toilet. But she'd go back in time and use a toilet at the takeoff. If you've ever walked into your bathroom and been like, who left that shit there? Gabby Burnham. She's like, ate at Wendy's before they changed the fries. Not so great.

[00:56:00] Ate at Wendy's after they changed the fries. Totally here for it. In and out. Overrated. I assume she's just like me. Leaving Yelp reviews everywhere. Oh, yeah. Going back to the flashback at the beginning, it did give me serious Kipo in the Age of Wonderbeast vibes. With like this super precocious, smart girl and her scientist parents. Written by one of the writers being, you know, Bill Wolkoff. So, check out that show. It's an amazing show. And I'm glad he brought up that Klingon ship.

[00:56:28] Because, like, I feel there's always been a missing step in Klingon ship morphology. Right? Because, like, seriously, as a Star Trek fan, you see Klingon ships in TOS. You see Romulan ships in TOS. And then in TNG, Romulan ships look much more Klingon than they did in TOS. And you're like, what is going on here? But this Klingon ship looks much more Romulan than we're used to. Like, it's got the curved wings.

[00:56:57] Like, it looks like a bird of prey. I really, really like that we get to see that. And I like that it makes, like, almost in-universe sense. Where you're like, well, at some point they must have encountered each other. And they went, you know, let's take what works from that and use it on our own designs. So, I'm absolutely glad we got to see that, too.

[00:57:19] And I do feel for Michael, like, I was the precocious kid who was like, oh, actually, did you know that the longest dinosaur name is Micropachycephalosaurus? And that's probably changed by now, because they always find a new dinosaur. Well, new old dinosaurs. But I remember being that kid in that situation where you're like, I can talk with these adults. And, like, walking away from that conversation, like, yeah, I totally crushed it. When, like, meanwhile, those adults are probably like, so how about that kid, huh?

[00:57:48] Like, I feel for Michael at all times and definitely also when she was a kid. So, I don't know why I've left, like, maybe my biggest beef with this episode till the end. I'm just looking at my notes and saying that's what's left. But for as much as I like the opening for, like, oh, this is what they would say. This is how it would go down. Like, most of the conversations with Gabrielle, who I'm just now realizing her name is Gabrielle Byrne. No. Since you've been saying that, Jesse, all episode has been throwing me.

[00:58:17] Gabrielle Byrne. No. No Gabrielle Byrne fans? No. No? You mean Gabrielle Byrne? Yes. Gabrielle Byrne? Oh, yes. I mean Gabrielle Byrne. Well, Cameron, those are two different names. So, forgive me. Forgive me. Yes. No, they're spelled exactly the same, pretty much. No, they are not. They sound closer than they're spelled. You're right. But Gab or Gabe, come on. Okay. So, every time you say it, I think that's what you're talking about. I'm like, was he in this?

[00:58:47] Why is she so hostile to Pike? Everything that is established, like, I'm trying to get back. I can't stay back. I'm trying to save the past. I can't. The technology won't let me stay there. She now has the chance to work with the past to achieve her goals. Why is she like, send me the fuck back. Don't talk to me. That's a fair question. Like, telling them to delete it is a good idea. Have the conversation, Gabriel. Well, and again, Gabrielle. I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:59:17] I'm sure Charlotte and Carlotta are the same name, too, right? But I get where you're coming from, because, like, she takes the time to tell him, like, I know who you are. You got some bad stuff coming up. Right now. And she even says, you're from the Enterprise, but right now you're on the Discovery. But then she says, you'll be back on your ship soon. Is she saying, yes, we're going to make Strange New Worlds. You'll be back on Enterprise soon? Yes, she's confirmed we're going to make Strange New Worlds on that line.

[00:59:41] Like, earliest confirmation, but you're right, because I can't answer that question. I don't know why she's completely unwilling to have the conversation with him, other than maybe she's, like, worried that being here is, like, damaging the suit and is like, stop damaging my suit. But she doesn't say that. Well, because she's been alone for decades. Like, I think she's in a... Sure. Obviously, I'm the only one. Like we said, she is Michael Burnham's mother.

[01:00:09] So, you know, it's like, no, obviously I'm the only one who can do this. And then by the end of the episode, she's saying, okay, that's a good idea of putting the data in the suit. That's actually a really good idea. Oh, shit. But I'm the one who has to fly it. I know, yeah. You know what it is? She's seen several versions of Pike, and she's disappointed that this is not tall, hair, Strange New Worlds. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah. She was like, you're not even that jacked, dude. Like, yeah, you're in shape, but like, you're not wider at the top than you are at the bottom yet.

[01:00:38] What's going on with that? She's like, you're no McNulty. Come on. What's going on? I do think maybe what they're going for is like, she was worried control was going to kill her. She's like, I need to get back because as long as I'm here, I'm in danger. But she doesn't really say that until the next scene. And even then, not very clearly. So yeah, the stakes for like why she won't, this is a perfect opportunity for her to achieve her goal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to John's point. And then why Pike wouldn't ask her about, hey, by the way, your daughter's here. Why didn't you want to see her?

[01:01:08] Like, why wouldn't he ask her that? Yeah. But, and that I also don't have an answer for, but to John's point, I think it is meant to reinforce that she is absolutely having the savior complex here. She's like, look, I've tried this. I've seen you die. You're a ghost to me. Like, this isn't what's going to help me fix the problem. And then later on, you're right. She does sort of realize like, oh, maybe, maybe he is.

[01:01:33] So I guess between her and Michael this season, the whole lesson is like, give Captain Pike a chance. And that's, that's absolutely the lesson that the fans came away with too. And I cannot wait to get back to Strange New Worlds. Yeah. Well, before we do that, we do have to each pick our song that represents best represents this episode. And yeah, we were talking to him before we started recording that this is a hard episode

[01:01:59] to pick a song for because not a lot happens and it's just, it really is moving pieces around. There's not a lot of mom songs that aren't just like super sappy. Yeah. Yeah. So the, if you'd like, I can start. Please. Okay. So I picked Mama by the Spice Girls and no, I'm totally, I'm totally playing. But it's a better song than you would think it is.

[01:02:28] The song that I actually picked. I don't know if I go that far. The movie was better than I thought it would be. Spice World. My wife had me watch that. And I think as a teenager, I would have been like, this is the worst movie I've ever seen. But as an adult, I'm like, oh, they're doing a pretty good facsimile of like a Beatles movie of the sixties. Like this totally works or maybe seventies. I don't know when the Beatles were making movies, you guys. But to stick with kind of my theme and genre with this whole season, I have chosen For

[01:02:57] You by Stained. It is a song from a child to their mother or their father. And it's written from the point of view of a son or a daughter. And they want to know if the screams are loud enough for their parent to hear them. So it's got, you know, stuff like I'm locked inside my head. I remember everything you said. This silence gets us nowhere, which is true. Nothing is happening until Gabrielle is willing to accept that maybe these other people do have ideas worth listening to.

[01:03:26] The silence is what kills me. Like that's almost literal here because if she doesn't accept this help, she may die. Everybody may die. She's locked inside her head. There's insults in this stuff and it's making Michael feel like she's not a person. So it was hard to pick a song that I felt fit like the emotional energy of this. But I feel like the lyrical parallels for you by Stained are absolutely here for Perpetual Infinity. Okay.

[01:03:56] I like it. Well, I settled on a Gary Neumann song. And I wasn't sure about it first. There's no settling on Gary Neumann. That's a good pick. I don't even know what song it is. Well, I only allow myself one a season. So I picked mine for this episode. And I'm liking it more and more. I chose Me, I Disconnect From You. Now, lyrically, I think the song is about Leland. The alarm rang for days. You could tell from conversations. I was waiting by the screen. I couldn't recognize my photograph.

[01:04:25] Me, I disconnect from you. That sounds like something that Leland could have gone through as he was being assimilated. Please don't turn me off. I could tell his mind decaying only inches away from me. So very much. But kind of the vibe of the song, the theme, like the metaphor underneath is someone pushing someone they care for away, much like Gabrielle does to Michael. Because she cannot risk her mission.

[01:04:50] She can't risk falling in love with Michael all over again and allowing herself that motherly warmth because it might convince her. It's a temptation for her to abandon her mission of saving the universe. She keeps Michael at arm's length and she tries to disconnect from Michael. And so I think it works for both stories. I was going to say, I hope you can tie this back to a character I like, Cameron. And you did it. Good job.

[01:05:16] With Leland, a point I was going to make that I didn't before with him, with the whole justice for Leland, I wish they would have given him a little bit of a redemptive arc in the last episode. Like if he had sacrificed something, if it turned out like he was a better guy than they all thought, than we all thought. And then this episode, he gets captured and he puts up a fight, but control takes him over. I think that would have been pretty interesting for him instead of just, he's an asshole and then he gets taken over and he's a bigger asshole.

[01:05:43] Do you mind if I use the hybrid version of that song for the episode? Because I love, I think the hybrid version is the best version of that song. You're right. Yes. Like, yeah, slow, like the fast version is great, but the slow down version with those driving beats at the beginning. I mean, the hybrid version of most of his stuff is the best version, but yeah. And did you know you can't find hybrid anymore? What? Like, it's not on any music service. I'm so glad I have all of those songs like saved and downloaded. 100%. Yeah.

[01:06:12] I think that's the biggest takeaway from the whole season is that you should get the things you like on physical media because the AI and the digital domain will absolutely take those things away from you and destroy them completely. Much like the library of Alexandria or the weird alien reference that Saru makes, which I love. Oh yeah. Saru is in this episode. Yeah. He really doesn't want to destroy that data. Nope.

[01:06:39] I went with one that I think makes about as much sense as this episode. Um, I'm going to just kind of go through the entire second verse here. First couple of lines are like a tunnel that you follow to a tunnel. It's of its own down a hollow to a cavern where the sun has never shown. That's where Pike is heading in this next episode. He's got to go. He literally has to journey down that far to get the time crystal. If I remember right, it's kind of a Indiana Jones type test, right?

[01:07:07] And, uh, like a door that keeps revolving in a half forgotten dream or the ripples from a pebble. Someone tosses in a stream. It's like, okay, we're getting into really timey stuff here. We're not making a lot of sense with our explanations about what's going on. Um, and then we get right at a time with like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of his face. They want to send the suit past its point in time. So it's in perpetual infinity and, uh, you know, verse ends with like the circles that

[01:07:36] you find in the windmills of your mind. And that's the song I chose for this. I'm thinking I'm going to go with the Petula Clark version because that song has been covered 900 times and there's a lot of good versions of it. But, um, yeah, I've always liked that song. It's a very haunting song to me and I think it's a good choice for this episode. All right. And it's from 1969. So that's even more time traveling. What a great pick. I think these are all good picks.

[01:08:06] Like, man. Yeah. I even know your song, Jesse. It's always fun when I know Jesse's song. These are like moments that matter to us is when I know a movie John and Cameron are referencing and when they know a song that I am referencing. Exactly. It's how we get to know each other through the things that we love. Right. So next time you're thinking about watching this episode, instead go listen to Gary, the hybrid, the Gary Newman, uh, remix album. Watch basic with John Travolta and Samuel Jack.

[01:08:36] That's right. And, uh, don't worry about this one. Yeah. That's what the next episode. Yeah. I'd say just watch the next episode. Just watch the next episode. Because I love the next episode. It was a good episode. So time, Crystal Lee. Yes. I, confession time. I spoke about the next episode in the Valley of Shadows on the It's Got Star Trek podcast as a guest. Oh.

[01:09:00] And I'm, I'm like, I don't know how to make new notes for that episode because I tried to pour all my love and devotion for that episode into that episode of It's Got Star Trek, which you should absolutely go check out. But like, I promise you guys I'll try to write new notes for that episode. I'll try and tabula rasa this thing before we get to next week. Sounds good. All right. Well, it has been a long night and the OpenPike Night crew has to go get sucked into a big

[01:09:29] red, red hole into, uh, into the future or, you know, hopefully that'll pass the time until the season three of Stranger World starts. But until then, be sure to clean up out yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here. I'm glad you asked, John. The easiest way folks can do that is to go to openpike.com and record their message right there on the website.

[01:09:54] And if you'd like to become a patron at patreon.com slash openpike, you get some really cool perks. You can sign up for as little as $2 a month. Those folks got to hear our Jonathan Frakes interview early, and they got to watch the video version where we break down the Strange New World season three teaser that was recently released. And Cameron. Yo. What have you been talking about on Green Shirt and Newbies Trek, the TNG? We, speaking of time travel, we've been having very long conversations about the, uh, the

[01:10:24] TNG movies. We're bringing the same in-depth analysis and overabundance of dick jokes, uh, from a 45 minute episode to two hours of TNG cinematic goodness. So come check us out over there. Uh, we also will be having an interview with Tracy Lee, Tracy Lee Coco, Instant J herself at some point. Hey. Uh, she has agreed to come on and talk to us. So we will be figuring out what a green shirt interview sounds like. So come check that out. And then we'll probably be taking a little bit of a break for the summer.

[01:10:53] So you can all enjoy our, uh, Strange New World's coverage here on Open Pike Night and then be picking it up with Picard in the fall. Ensign Gozer. That's right. Ensign Gozer. Hell yeah. I'm still wondering if I'm going to tell her that's her nickname on her show. I don't know. I mean, we mean it as a compliment, but yeah. No. Look, if anybody is used to being recognized for a single role in their entire body of acting work, it's people who were on Star Trek. That's true. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:11:22] And Jesse, we had some great callers tonight. So if our listeners and every listener is welcome to call in want to, how can they do that? It's like real life time travel. Yeah.