Disco Inferno 12 - "Through The Valley Of Shadows"

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello, hello. Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds Podcast where your personal logs are the prime directive.

[00:00:33] I am your host this evening, Jesse Bailey, and I'm here to help my co-host and wonderful guest discuss Star Trek Discovery Season 2 Episode 12, Through The Valley Of Shadows, as part of our Disco Inferno coverage. You may have noticed that I am not Producer John, much as I might try, but that's okay. I'm just gonna sit in for one episode, everybody. Relax, it's gonna be fine.

[00:00:58] Because of course, with me as always, is the man who knows that hindsight is always 20-20, Cameron Harrison. Yes, Producer John went on a covert, unauthorized, but sort of authorized mission to, I don't know, research some distress call. And I'm stuck here with Jesse in a cave full of time crystals.

[00:01:22] It's the best place to be stuck. And of course, we do have a wonderful guest here. We wouldn't just leave you with me and Cameron because we know that that could devolve pretty quickly into a shouting match. So with us tonight is a podcaster who believes in service, sacrifice, compassion, and love, Jarrah Hodge from Women at Warp. Welcome, Jarrah. Heck yes. Good to be here.

[00:01:48] Yay. Thanks for being here. We're gonna get the full pod crawl crew here eventually is the plan. Amazing. Yeah, I think if we managed to get the guys from the next conversation, that would be our longest episode ever by maybe an hour, maybe two hours. But no shade. I do really like their show. It's got a unique perspective, both of them being TV writers.

[00:02:11] But yes, it is absolutely a time commitment. Do you see what I did there, Cameron? I brought it all back to time. I do have to ask right away, though. This episode opens with a Gabby's log, basically. Yes. Okay. I know where you're going. She mentions the time storm. Casually name drops a time storm. Is that a real thing? Or is that just like what she refers to this whole rigmarole as?

[00:02:39] What is the time storm? Was that brought up last episode? Was that... The same log was played in the previous episode, but I... But what is it? I don't think this... I don't think she said time storm last time. I don't know what the time storm is. She did say time storm last time, but it was just as quick. I think it was the exact same log. Okay. But like, is that what is keeping her anchored to the future? No, because she talks about like the Judgment Day future she's in. She's not...

[00:03:05] Yeah. Like, what is... Is she just saying that because she knows she screwed up the controls of her time jumping suit? Oh, sorry, honey. It's a time storm. I'll be home soon. I promise. As soon as this time storm blows over. So is it a time storm or the time storm? Yeah. She says the time storm. Yeah. That makes it feel to me less believable.

[00:03:26] If they just said odd time storm, I'd be like, cool, this is just something that happens. And maybe they called it that, you know, when you have those rifts opening up and you go through the rift and you go back in time and maybe it's emitting something. But yeah, in general, I find that if they say temporal, I take it more seriously than time something. I don't know. That must be my training.

[00:03:55] Yeah, honey. Yeah. You know, I'm sorry I wasn't there to pick you up from school. I had to work late. Sure, mom. Then why do you smell like a cocktail bar, huh? You smell like a time cocktail bar. I am absolutely going to try. I ran out of time gas on my way to work and see if that goes over smoothly. Yeah, I don't know. It does feel like it might just be like what she calls her situation, right? Maybe. But it's such a specific name and they give no explanation for it.

[00:04:25] So it's just like a euphemism. Like it's like saying it flows coming to visit, but it's like, oh, yeah, the time storm. You know what I mean? That's what it feels like. Is she like, I want to say shit storm, but I'm talking to my 12 year old. So I got to call it a time storm. Maybe. Because she's sucking a shit storm. I'll buy that. It's the point being like, there is zero explanation. And that's why we had to start here. Because it's like, what is she even saying?

[00:04:54] I'm glad it just wasn't me and my time hang up that got time stuck on this time phrase. We should run a counter. Like I'll play a little bell every time somebody says time. I just said it. I didn't even mean to. Like that's this would be fun, but it would probably make this episode like unlistenable. Just do it yourself at home, listeners. Yes. That's right. Yeah. This is your time homework.

[00:05:19] So I did notice, though, that the writers of this episode happened to agree with my thoughts from the last episode. That what Michael Burnham needs most in this moment is a small chat with Amanda. Yes. I noticed that. There is nothing in the world more centering and comforting than a chat with Amanda. Am I right? Hmm. Yes. I honestly don't know if you're sincere or sarcastic right now.

[00:05:46] I mean, it's way I think she is, you know, every time she's showed up, she's improved the situation. Sarek, on the other hand, a bit hit and miss. I mean, I definitely see Amanda as a positive force. Calming and central. I mean, she's she's got an edge to her is all. She does. But as a parent, sometimes you have to like make that puzzle piece fit. Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:06:13] And you know, with Amanda, it's coming from a place of love. Yeah. Like she's she never has ulterior motives outside of I'm going to help my family. Like if she's being deceptive, it's because she's doing it to help her family. Like, I don't know. I love Amanda. And I'm convinced at this point that Sarek's last name is also Grayson. And he was like, I'm going to take this last name because. It makes the best sense.

[00:06:39] So, Michael, you know, which of your mothers didn't abandon you to time? She's right here. That's what she showed up for. Just to remind her which mom is still around. Yeah. Yeah. And which mom doesn't get mad at her and yell at her like when she's trying to help? Like I heard other mommy just completely ignored you last episode. That was mean, wasn't it? Hmm. Well, and then your other other mommy tried to save you by kicking some serious AI ass. That's right.

[00:07:08] Luckily for her. That's a lot of moms. It's the dumbest AI in the universe and never goes for kill shots. So that's pretty helpful at least. Which we will get into this episode. We will. And you know what else we'll get into this episode, Cameron? We're going to get into some calls from our wonderful callers. Let's go ahead and start with our good friend Abby of the First Flight Podcast. Hey, hey, OpenPike. It's Abby Summer from the First Flight Podcast here to talk about Through the Valley of Shadows,

[00:07:38] which first thing I'm going to say, and I'm sure you've all said it already, time crystals. It's about time. Ha, ha. I love time travel and science fiction in general. I adore it in Star Trek. This whole season just scratches my itch of temporal shenanigans, and I can't get enough of it. And this is the Pike episode, isn't it? This is the one you can't look away. Every moment down on Boreth is just absolutely riveting.

[00:08:04] And it takes Pike from what he was who set out the war to what he will be that we see in Strange New Worlds. And Anson Mount deserves every heap of praise that he can get for this because it is incredible. This episode is always a really hard one to watch, but at the same time, you leave feeling that moment afterwards where he's saying, you're Starfleet's captain, you believe in truth and sacrifice and all of that.

[00:08:33] It just stays with you. And this is a foundational Pike moment. So I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about all of it. I hope this finds you well. We'll talk soon. Abby, I'm so happy that you brought this up. And I'm sure that we will hear a lot about Pike this episode, especially when we get to Melanie's call, as usual, which is something I always look forward to. But I do have to say, I think what I like the most about Pike's journey in this episode

[00:09:02] is that it really shows Cameron, why he's so much better than Leland as a Starfleet officer and captain, because he's what we call a servant leader, right? Leland and, I mean, by extension, Tyler, let's be honest. This is actually me complaining about Tyler. He would be so awful to work with in an office setting. He's the guy that would be always gatekeeping his connections.

[00:09:30] Like, I can reach out to Chancellor Laurel in purchasing, but you can't. That's my job. He would absolutely be a micromanager, making sure he had his fingerprints on the project rather than letting his team achieve success with the tools that he had given them. Whereas Pike is much more of the, you know, when the team succeeds, I succeed kind of leader. And I really love that we get that dichotomy because it's like, you've been asking, like, really, what's so bad about Leland?

[00:10:00] And while I disagree with your premise wholeheartedly, I think that's the answer. Like, Leland is not a team player. Tyler, and like, yes, he's in Section 31. But even a bad team is a team, right? Like, even when a football team goes 0-16, the coach at the press conference is like, this is on me. We failed as a team. We succeed as a team. And Leland is not that, and neither is Tyler.

[00:10:29] But Pike absolutely is. You say in an episode where Pike is on his own for most of the episode. I'm not seeing the connection, Jesse. He's on his own for the good of the whole team because he's trying to make this loose association of Starfleet, Section 31, and the Klingon Empire function in a moment when it needs to. I do love that moment when Ash and L'Rell are just going at it. He's like,

[00:10:56] this damn Klingon Game of Thrones B. Why am I here? I'm not paid enough space books for this. I'll do it. I'll just do it, okay? Okay. But he also does, you know, he hears out Michael at the end being like, gotta destroy the ship. He listens and pushes back sometimes in other situations. And I think that he is a good leader. I agree that this episode isn't like the one I would hold up as the best example of that.

[00:11:26] But like, just mostly because one of my feelings on this episode is that almost there's a lot of really cool things going on and almost all of them could have been like milked more if there had been more time. But we're getting into like the end of season pacing crunch where they have to wrap up a lot of stuff and things like Pike, you know, realizing in 30 seconds that like, no, I'm Starfleet. This is what I gotta do. I felt like that could have been drawn out more.

[00:11:56] I feel like the like creepy Section 31 ship could have been drawn out more. And so like, if anything, that's my main issue with it is like the nuggets of awesome. I would have liked to see more time spent on those. More time. So sad. Yeah, I episode of time crystals. We don't have more time. I agree. A lot of people were saying how last episode felt like not much happened,

[00:12:24] which I kind of disagreed with again, because we met Michael's mom. I feel like this episode, not much happens. I mean, I know we've got a time crystal. I know that's going to become important, but like Pike's journey, especially like, so he goes down to Mordor Hogwarts first or miss. I'm not sure which one it is. It's one of those. And I'm like, okay, well, this is going to be cool. Cause he goes up and, you know, baby, baby L'Oreal, baby Ash says, you know what? You wasted your time. Not going to help you. And Pike's like, yeah, but it's important.

[00:12:54] And the guy is like, baby, baby Ash is like, cool, cool, cool. Okay. Come on. I'll, I'll take you in the back. It's a good moment. I mean, I think if he had struggled more with it, it wouldn't have felt right. Like he faced it. It was shocking. He screamed, but then he's like, oh yeah, I'm a Starfleet captain.

[00:13:22] I sacrifice or I risk my life all the time. I'm going to do what's right. He gets the time crystal. He gets back. He says, Hey guys, whoo, I just paid a price to get this time crystal. Just like you all said I would. And then they go, oh yeah, no, the time crystal won't work. We've got to blow up the ship. And that's his story. This episode. It was like, I feel like more to Jarrah's point. We could have done more with that. The only thing that I,

[00:13:48] I think I disagree with is like the sentiment of like, it's not perfect. Like to me, it's perfect. Like this is the, this is the time crystal episode. And that setup in particular cam, I think it works really well because it is very cling on to be like, oh, you're a human. This isn't really for you. You can't handle it. And then when the human shows like a little bit of chutzpah, like, no, I want to do the thing. You go, all right, you know what?

[00:14:18] Try the thing. Let's see how you do. Like, he needs to show some, a challenge accepted. Kling on chutzpah. Not like, Hey man, I thought you were here to help people. Let's help people. Come on. I don't know why he's Jersey. New Jersey all of a sudden. So to Novick who we cannot fail to mention is played by the incomparable. Kenneth Mitchell is possibly my favorite disco Klingon. I mean, that hurts to say, because I love Laurel.

[00:14:46] I think actually Laurel and to Novick are like tied. And like, I think he plays this really well. Like, yes, it is a very, I'm going to say cheesy character. Like you live in a room full of time crystals. Your title is timekeeper. A lot of the dialogue and the setup it's, it's Star Trek, right? It's cheesy. It's camp. Jesse. Can I, I just, I, cause I wrote down one of the lines of dialogue. Let me pull it up.

[00:15:15] When the future becomes the past, the present will be unlocked. Yes. Hindsight is 2020. Oh, so these monks are just full of bullshit. Okay. These guys are just faking it all. Got it. Okay. That makes sense. That kind of actually makes everything make sense. They're just blowing hot air. Is this a cult? Yes. Yes. And like, what do you expect out of Klingon monks? Right? Like they're not known for being like high concept philosophers for the most part. It's, it's, it's battle stuff. And you know,

[00:15:44] they're all about a parable and stories and learning lessons that way. But point being, like all of this is, could be considered cheesy. But I think that as we have said many times before, and probably will say many times in the future, Star Trek is elevated by the performances, right? Captain Pike has some really cheesy stuff to do in this episode, but he nails it. He absolutely makes it believable and makes it work.

[00:16:12] I think Tanavik does the same kind of thing. And I have to also say, Laurel, the great Mary Chifo, every time that I remember that she is the daughter of the sparkle motion mom from Donnie Darko, it blows my mind anew. Like every time I'm beginning to doubt your commitment to the Klingon empire. Yes. Oh, somebody give us that edit. Yeah. I mean, it, it just, it still blows me away that, you know,

[00:16:42] such a bold choice for discovery to make canon, that the Klingons always eat a giant spoonful of peanut butter before every scene they appear in. That does, I mean, it's, I'm goosebumps whenever that happens. I do want to touch real quick. You mentioned like the, the Klingons and these monks, there is this interesting nugget. They dropped. They're talking about the time crystals. Laurel's like, yeah, I can't even control them. Right? Like we, we protect these here because, and I forget if she mentions they did,

[00:17:12] she implies that at one point there was a giant time war conducted by the Klingons where they were like, oh, we can not use these. These are nuclear weapons. We need to bury them and protect them. And I want that backstory. That's gotta be amazing. Yeah. And now everyone just thinks they're a myth. Yeah. Yeah. And for some reason, the monastery they built for this has like many, many similarities to a Christian cathedral on earth. Right. Well,

[00:17:42] it's probably because they stole it from time. Could be. Like a time heist. I am always begging for the Star Trek anime, right? What better place to put that than the temporal Klingon space war. Like you can go to all these different time periods. You can have every different episode animated by a different studio, just like Star Wars visions. Like, I mean, that would be a good pitch for that work. And it's like immediate buy-in from so many angles.

[00:18:12] I just, I love this episode. And I, I mentioned last week that I would try to make new notes because I have discussed this before on another podcast, but I did. I managed to make basically all new notes because I noticed some new things this time. Did you notice that when the discovery first shows up at Borath, it's the disco is like placed right in front of a moon next to Borath. And it absolutely looks like a little hand on a clock.

[00:18:39] It's like this tiny little subtle thing. I don't know if it's intentional, but for me, wow, what a great intentional thing that they put in here. The visuals of this episode all the way through, like the, the crossfade between Saru's face and then the weird creepy rock formation that kind of looks like Saru's face. They didn't need to do that, but they did because they love us. I think you were high on time crystals when you watch this. It's the only way to do it. Well, let's hear from another caller.

[00:19:08] I'm going to randomly pick Platty. Hey, open pike night. This is Platty M3 calling in with my hits, shits, and giggles. First hits. Hey, we had an Amanda sighting. That's always a hit. The entire scene in the mess hall and Linus's, I was hatched ready line. Great stuff there. And man, that brainy game they were playing. Don't overlook it. Also, I love Spock taking the time to do the math at the end with the Ferris nanobots. Shits. Poor Tenovic. As if it wasn't enough,

[00:19:37] he had dumbass Ash Tyler as a father. He had makeup that look up, made him look like he had four nostrils. I don't know if Klingons are supposed to have extra of them. And then the lines under his nose just look like snot. Yikes. Shitty end for those people ejected out of the Section 31 ship. And then Michael just casually bumps into them with the shuttle. Hey, shitty driving girl. Giggles. All right. When Spock said the oxygen level of the bridge was back to 97%, I had to laugh out loud. The electricity flowing through the consoles would have blown that bridge to hell.

[00:20:07] Oxygen level should be like 21%. Come on, Spock. Talk precisely. Also, I had to laugh at Dr. Rhymes with Pooh having a no playlist for the wedding DJ. My wife and I most definitely had one of those. She picked half a dozen songs that annoyed her. And I banned anything released prior to 1980. Hey, also, did anyone do the math and catch how many ships Section 31 have? So 30% discovery. Discovery. Plus there was that one that Michael ended up with. Hmm. Do the math.

[00:20:37] This is Platy M3 signing off. Platy, a joy as always. And the exact kind of nerd that I am here to do business with, man. Like, how did they, how did they do that? Like, did nobody in the script process catch that? That they were like, wait, are we saying Section 31 has 31 ships? Like. And they aren't allowed to have 32. They have to go straight to 62 and only multiples of 31. You know, there was like some Admiral's kid who was like, you know,

[00:21:07] what would be cool is if we only had 31 ships at all times. Wait, is that. Just throw them a bone. Is that why it's called Section 31? Ooh, maybe that's it. It raises a lot of dumb questions, which makes me wonder why did they do this? Like, I mean, we have established that apparently Section 31 is pretty dumb. So I could absolutely see that being something that they go for. Now, Platy brought up the, the mess hall scene, which I got to mention because at first, you know,

[00:21:36] first thing, yay, more tag always. I think I was planning to complain about the lack of tag. She didn't show up this time. And then I just, I do want to say that Linus saying the, the line I picked out Platy was when he says choke on that. Well, now I know what, what, what's going to fuel either my nightmares or my wet dreams tonight. One or the other. I'm not sure, but that's going to play a part. First one. And then the other. Why not? Why not both? So Cameron. Speaking of which, did you, did you, auto antonyms? Yeah.

[00:22:06] Did you bring one? No. Oh, come on, man. I brought two. Okay. I brought fast, which can mean quickly or not moving at all. And of course the old favorite in flammable, which can either mean flammable or not flammable. Very good. Yeah. I'm trying to pull one out right now. Strike. I know the strike has a lot of meanings.

[00:22:37] Nope, not really. I was just like, I wanted to, because there's a moment where I was like, oh, this is thematically tying the episode together. Because at one point, I believe Laurel says to Ash, like, oh, you know, two truths can exist at once. But that was a pretty throwaway line about something not that important. And yeah, it doesn't. To me, it just more spoke to the whole idea that like everyone in Starfleet has obscure and slightly snooty hobbies. Yes. oh,

[00:23:07] you of course know what an autoantonym is. And they're all like, yeah, I know what it is. This is why. I've been playing autoantonyms since grade school. Yeah. But did they really think they were going to out snark Stamets? Like, that's just a failed proposition from the start. You know that's not going to happen. Right. But I do feel for him in that scene. Like, how much would it suck if your old friends at high school that you don't hang out with anymore

[00:23:36] sat at the table right across from you and their new friends were laughing with them and having a great time. But, oh, you also work here and you don't get to go home on the weekend. Like, what a truly awful thing for Hugh to go through or for Paul to go through. I was just like, man, I feel for you. And it's funny because that, there was an episode a few back where Stamets, like,

[00:24:02] suddenly gave very good relationship insight to Spock and, like, how he could fix his moments with Burnham. And I think one of us speculated, it may have been you, Cameron, that that felt like it was written for Tig Notaro, but they gave it to Stamets because in this episode, we get the same thing and it is Tig Notaro. And, like, she's so good at it. Like, yeah. I love that scene. She is very good. I do, there is part of me

[00:24:32] and maybe I should wait till, you know, the next episode where I presume Hugh rhymes with Pooh and Stamets come back together. But, like, I just, I mean, I was so in awe of this season when they brought Hugh back and it felt like it mattered. Like, it didn't feel like it's cheap bringing someone back from the dead because he was changed and it did matter and he, he did it. He broke up with Paul and, and, and that felt meaningful. And here, just for, like,

[00:25:03] Tig to kind of, like, playfully kind of rip him, that's what's going to, like, remind him, oh yeah, I do love this guy. I don't know. Just, I don't know if there's more coming. I can't quite remember, but I know that a lot's going to happen in the next two episodes so there can't be, I just feel like he needed to discover it himself and, and, and be a bit more meaningful. I don't know. Yeah, I, I like the scene. I don't agree with the substance of the advice that he, like, owes it to them to, like, make Stamets think

[00:25:33] he feels more than he does so that he has his head in the game. Like, that doesn't make sense to me, but I buy the context and where she's coming from and it's funny. I think that's all stated, yeah. Yeah, I think, and it's a very good point and it does make me want to ask, Cameron, are you the Paul or the Hugh in your relationship? I'm the Paul who thinks he's the Hugh. That's funny because

[00:26:02] that's literally exactly what I put in my notes for myself. Jarrah, are you more of a Paul or a Hugh? I was gonna say I think that I'm like half, well, no, I mean, I feel like that's probably not accurate if I say it. I'm a Paul. I'm probably a Paul. At least, like, relative to my partner who's definitely a Hugh. There you go. It's all relative, right?

[00:26:31] Because it's a time crystal episode. Maybe I'm Reno's wife. That's who I am. If only. If only. I've asked this, I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but I'm going to again, guys. What are the signals? What are the signals? We don't know yet, Cameron. Spoiler alert. Because Gabby Burnham is not creating them. I think I finally figured out the difference between the signals

[00:27:01] and the Red Angel appearances. I got that. But why do they know there's seven signals but only four have appeared? Because they all appeared at once or they picked them all up at once or something. Right. but then I don't know after that. So confused. It seems like they're not permanent. I can't remember but maybe they mentioned it like you know in the second episode where they go to that

[00:27:31] pre-warp planet that turns out it's not actually pre-warp but they have like this all this stuff to the Red Angel and maybe they mentioned there's seven but I don't remember. Well I think to Cameron's point I feel like they mentioned it in the first episode they're like we suddenly got these seven signals. There's seven signals they know there's seven signals so but it might have been like they go away and now they're reappearing yeah in some kind of order

[00:28:01] so it may have been that everybody with the capability detected all seven at once and then you know but they weren't able to locate them at that time I mean I know I'm not supposed to think that much but I know it's just supposed to get us from point A to point B but well you know this may sound hand wavy but time travel so you know keep that in mind man but because we are traveling through time I am gonna take one more opportunity here to complain about Ash Tyler

[00:28:31] because Michael is more emotional about the revelation that he has a son than he is about revealing it like what is Ash Tyler's problem seriously our relationship just got a lot more good your baby daddy yeah she's like look man I was really trying to give you another chance but now you're gonna drop this was it classified section 31 information again like I cannot

[00:29:00] get past this character like he just does not work for me and I don't think it's the performance like I think that he was put in a spot that's like it's impossible to make this character work yeah and I think I think in his sort of relationship talks both like with Laurel in this episode and previous ones with Michael they always are the more mature party and Laurel is very very mature in this episode

[00:29:29] I don't know if I buy the you know you'll always only be in love with Michael Burnham but you know clearly realizes like not into her and yeah like when you know he finds out he's Voke and they you know he gets kind of reintegrated and Michael is like I don't know I need some time to think about all this and he's just like

[00:29:58] I have to tie knots but I again I think it's I agree with you like I think that Shahzad Latif is a good performer and he's doing his best with maybe like a character they just didn't really know what to do with yeah yeah I think that's the only way to make it understandable because yeah it's like the dude can freaking act he just has not been asked to for some reason like it's very strange

[00:30:28] and I think you're absolutely right about Laurel like her statement is definitely her putting up her shields she's like you know what I'm gonna protect myself by telling you out loud that I think this is your major malfunction so that even if it's not it works for me and I can move now Cameron I do have to ask we had talked about there being a whole Klingon episode like yes seven episodes ago

[00:30:58] oh no this was the season of the whole Klingon episode a while ago yeah do you think they could have just omitted that episode and yes we would have gotten all the same information in the three flashbacks we get in this episode uh more or I mean maybe you need to flesh out the flashbacks a little bit this episode but yeah yeah I was watching this being like is this the only reason we had that episode or was it just to get Ash on the ship to explain why Ash was on the

[00:31:27] ship like yeah I'm definitely wondering that yeah I just it reminded me of discussing that episode and you know then last episode we talked about filler episodes and I was like I don't think there are any but thinking about it now it's like I don't know that we needed most of the Klingon stuff like I'm absolutely here for it I'll watch a Klingon episode I love Klingon episodes for sure but I mean it had an amazing Georgiou reveal we got a dead baby head

[00:31:57] like I'm asking for the episode without the dead baby head what is happening the tables have turned absolutely well I've got some notes on Pike but I don't want to take them from Melanie so let's listen to her call so I'm watching this with trepidation you guys know I'm a huge fan of Captain Pike and of Anson Mount and to be clear this is the Pike episode I mean we know about Pike's future and fate since the 1960s with the Menagerie Batman seeing this now with a character that came to life and who we love

[00:32:27] wow it certainly changes things and you know I wish they would find a way to make his life after the accident something more worthwhile there has to be something but that's what I wish for and I doubt they will change it I know even Anson wants Pike not to escape his future but I hope to make it easier for Pike and living on Tarno I don't know and this episode man our dear brave courageous captain how I love him and it gets to me every time

[00:32:56] never tell Chris Pike what he cannot do it won't work and he'll show you how he'll make it work is Pike prepared to know his destiny I'm not not now nor ever this is so and then there it is the accident it's so terrible and Chris is shocked to me just with yourself but then his wonderful and so meaningful words about that he is a Starfleet captain believing in service sacrifice compassion love and he won't abandon who is because of a terrible future and he takes it you know

[00:33:26] whenever I hear God's Max when legends arise I think of Christopher Pike it's my song and that's it for me for today what an episode live long thank you about Starfleet parka like he rocks that it's kind of a shame that Anson Mountain as such a good actor because he would have been an amazing L.L. Bean model. More like Captain Parker. Parker needs pockets, though.

[00:33:55] It does. For all those time crystals he's stashing. And why is he just wearing the standard issue pants? I know! Put on some winter pants, man! His little pike's gonna get frozen. Yeah, no kidding! I also feel like it's one of those things where if you've seen his hair in Strange New Worlds and going back to watch him in Discovery, it feels like when you, if you like only got to know Riker with the beard and then you go back and watch season one and it's just like, this is still good, but

[00:34:24] something's off. Something's not right, yeah. That's a really good analogy. I do think this was a great way to utilize what we know of Pike from the future, from the past pilot, right? Like, bringing his future into his storyline here, especially since we didn't know there'd be a Strange New Worlds yet. Like, this was a smart way to do it. Like, look, we only know so much about this character. Even though it happens in the future, let's utilize it here. Let's make it part

[00:34:52] of the character. I remember being really kind of awestruck by that the first time I watched this season. I mean, I don't want to take away from it, but this time it did feel a little less, partly because of Strange New Worlds, because I feel like the Strange New Worlds Pike would have reacted a little different than we saw here. It would have been more, you know, it would have been more Pike's focus, so we would have gotten more time with him and his repercussions. A lot like we were talking about earlier, I think.

[00:35:20] True, but I think it does, I mean, if you view it as a whole, right? Like, you watch this, then you watch Strange New Worlds, it really does harken back to what Tanavik was saying, which is like, look, they always show up cocky and they always leave shaky. Like, it is an actual moment of inflection for Pike's story. Like, it does change him and it matters to him. And I totally hear you, Melanie,

[00:35:49] hoping for the best for Pike and maybe a little bit of change, but I do think you're correct that they're not going to change his fate. Like, arguably, all of the first season of Strange New Worlds was the producers saying, we are not going to let him out of this. We are going to, that's where he ends, and that's kind of what makes his time here even more meaningful, because we know it has a limit. And, you know, that's a sentiment you've seen in every vampire movie, every time travel movie, like

[00:36:18] the temporary status of a human life is what gives it meaning, right? So I feel like they're trying not to take that level of meaning away from Pike, and I agree with the decision, but I totally understand the sentiment. I have really complicated feelings about it because I also agree, like, you know, I respect not changing the ending, but I think that the

[00:36:47] storyline of Menagerie worked a lot better in the 60s than it does now, and things like the idea that you would be confined to a wheelchair where you can only, like, beep yes or no answers. I mean, they haven't really gone into that, so maybe they're gonna, like, bring it more up to speed with where you would expect technology to go from, like, today's technology, because to me that's, like, not... I don't buy that based on Star Trek level of technology, you would only be able to communicate in yes or no answers

[00:37:17] and based on where we are at today. And I also have complicated feelings about how this, like, ends up getting framed as, like, worse than death and how that plays into, like, some pretty ableist narratives we have in our society. That said, like, legitimating that he goes through an awful trauma and that, like, this does destroy a lot of things that, like, he probably wanted for himself, so it's

[00:37:46] legitimate to have, like, you know, I guess pre-trauma about that. But I think that I don't know. I just was, like, I don't love the way that the narrative about having a disability in the menagerie, I don't think it holds up particularly well, so I, like, would like to see that challenged a little bit more. Yeah, I think they're going to have to, like, suggest that, like,

[00:38:16] he's brain-dead and that the Talosians are going to be able, the only ones who can kind of revive his brain at all. Because otherwise, yeah, I mean, that's just totally ableist. Well, and I agree with you completely on that, Jera, but I think that they're kind of doing some character work with Pike where he's sort of realizing, no, that's not the end of my life. Like, just because that's the way I live doesn't mean that my life isn't worth living. Now, is that maybe, you know, sort of a

[00:38:46] band-aid after the fact? Absolutely. But you're right. I mean, the original does come from the 60s. But yeah, to me, the technology barrier is absolutely there. Like, we have seen people die repeatedly and then just get brought back. So, like, how is this somehow more permanent? And the little glimmer of hope that I will say I think exists for Melanie and all Captain Pike cuddle fans is that we don't know what happens after he gets

[00:39:16] to Talos and spends a bunch of time there with Vina. maybe something happens later that we don't know about yet. It hasn't been written yet, you know? Like, so I think that's absolutely possible. And, you know, Paramount Plus, if you're going to keep doing these one-off movies, let's have a Pike one. Come on. And there's always fan fiction. If all else fails. Yes. It is the realm of possibility. Speaking of Pike escaping his fate, I did bump a little bit when

[00:39:44] Baby Ash says, you know, if you take the crystal, your fate is sealed. What? Why? What does that have to do? What? Like, if he doesn't take this crystal, can he escape his fate? Besides, Strange New Worlds certainly contradicts that and suggests he can escape his fate. Oh, right. These monks are full of bullshit. Okay, I'm good with this. Well, he's just making that up to sound. He can escape his fate in Strange New Worlds at the cost of lots and lots of other people's lives. Right.

[00:40:12] So an honorable Klingon would consider that case closed, Cameron. Are you saying Ash, Tyler produced an honorable Klingon offspring? No, I'm saying Voke did because Voke was a badass. Now, here's a really cool little detail that I didn't notice probably the first five times that I watched this episode. one of the cadets behind the glass in the Captain Pike accident scene is wearing the exact same Starfleet cadet badge that

[00:40:42] we see Uhura in in season one of Strange New Worlds. It is the same design. That's very cool. So that's one of those little like continuity things that as a nerd I'm like, yes, they watched it and they took that and they did such a good job. It was, it's very cool. His admiral uniform is a little different like with the rank pips on the shoulders. But like, I mean, spoiler alert, we'll get to it. But this is just one possible future for Pike

[00:41:11] is the other little glimmer of hope I'll pass out there. Speaking of little continuity things, how do we feel about, and I don't know the character's name, the pilot who's alive, not alive. Banter. He's not a pilot. From the pilot. He's from the pilot. You don't remember the character whose first name is Comron? Like, it's basically Cameron. What's that his first name? Yeah. I mean, of course, he's my favorite character in the show. I've been holding a torch for him ever since the I would also accept

[00:41:40] Lieutenant Gantz, but I will, for me, he is so much better as that type of semi-controlled, maybe evil, maybe good guy character than Leland has been in 11 episodes up to this point. Like, I don't know if it's the performance. Again, I don't know if it's the writing, but I love this performance. I think Gantz is very, very well played. And you want to talk about people that look good in tight space suits?

[00:42:09] Like, yes, Exhibit 1, Spock, played by Ethan Peck. But when Gantz crouches down to threaten Michael, I'm like, okay, he fills those pants all the way out. Well, he just looks good. I mean, I was like, well, yeah, of course you remember him, Michael. He's speaking of L.L. Bean models, like perfume cologne model. I don't know. Yeah. But he is way too good looking to still be an ensign. And he is like, I like that they did keep the

[00:42:38] continuity with that actor. Like, yeah. Look, man, you're going to be in two, maybe three episodes of Star Trek ever. And no, you're not really going to matter in two of them, but you're going to be like a turning point for the story in the third one. Like, I'm fine with that. Like, we've had flashbacks in this season to things that happened earlier in this season. And I'm famously like, I don't need that. I remember it. I'm watching the show currently. But I liked that they gave

[00:43:07] me a shot of him on the bridge and you get Michael's hairstyle for context, right? Like, oh, that's season one Michael. It does kind of make me want to go back and see if I can spot him in season one because I don't know that he actually had any lines, but I would imagine. Was that shot even used? Yeah. I imagine that it was because they probably searched through all that like, okay, would there be literally anybody left from the Shenzhou that isn't also on the Discovery? Right. Because Kayla was there, she got hurt, Saru was there, you know, like all this stuff.

[00:43:36] So I really like that piece of the story. And I, again, I just, I think Gantz does a great job of being a linchpin for this whole little plot here. Yeah. I just, I didn't know what was happening in this plot. This is the problem with like AI enemy AI plots. It's like, well, if the AI is controlling the ship, I mean, you're fucked. It's, it's over. Like, what, what do you mean? He's in this system, but not in this system. Oh, wait, this is him. Like I, I could not follow any of that.

[00:44:06] I could not understand why, like if, if Michael is the variable you need to get rid of, guess what? You can get rid of her right now. Airlock the ship. Like good. You're done. What do you mean you're trying to convince her to help you destroy mankind? What are you talking about? Well, I mean, control knows that if you kill Michael, Gabby Burnham will just come back and save her. So. But it can't, she can't now because the like controls got it and control knows that. Control knows Gabby can't come back now.

[00:44:35] But if also, if they turn Michael, they can just more easily get the sphere data. But I think to me, this is one where I was like, oh, if they had time to make a whole episode of the creepy ship, I would be super into it. It reminds me of like M-Poc-Nor in Deep Space Nine. And then there was also the piece about like the AI being in the ship and not in all the ship and we needed to make another part of the system for it to go into. It reminded me of that Deep Space Nine episode where they have to make like

[00:45:04] the doghouse in the computer. Yeah. So, you know, it had and the fact that she knows him does make the whole thing creepier. That helps. Yeah. I liked it. I just kind of wished there had been more of it. So and to your to answer your question, Cameron, maybe not satisfactorily, but I think this is the actual answer. It is a trap like it is. And Spock is right. Michael's logic is failing

[00:45:33] her because this is so clearly a trap from the very first moment that it's like she's like, well, we have to go over there, but we have to bring this guy like, OK, that's already too many coincidences on top of, you know, this guy like you should immediate every red alert should be going off in your head. This is a trap. This is a trap. This is a trap. So I view that whole setup as his trap. He's like, I'll tell them here's where control is. Here's the rest of the systems. It's his idea. Like, well, maybe we could build a dummy, you know,

[00:46:03] like so I I truly honestly believe that that's all part of his trap to set up getting Michael alone. And I'm absolutely a sucker for blue square is good, orange square is bad. Like, it totally brings me back to Neon Genesis Evangelion, which everybody should absolutely watch. But it's it's it's such a such a simple visual language. Right. Like, is it maybe too simple?

[00:46:32] I could hear that argument. But like, again, I'm here for bad squares, orange, good squares, blue. I'll take that every day. I don't care. I'm with that. There was like a tangible meaning to it. It's just I don't what does that mean? Like, it's AI. It's everywhere. Like, how is it not in that square? What does that square mean? Is it a room? Well, she's they're being lied to. But like on a on a computer, you know, antivirus software quarantines and then removes

[00:47:01] files like it's it's just a visual representation of that. But clearly it was only in certain places. Otherwise, it could have taken care of Spock while he was talking to Michael. It put Spock in a different room and then took over the system. And then when Spock realized what was going on, which it should have known because it had control of the whole ship. You're not incorrect that it had control of the whole ship the whole time, but it created the illusion. How are they alive? How did they get out of there? Well, again, it's a very dumb AI. Why?

[00:47:30] It kind of made it feel like it was just all in in the dude in Cameron. Well, I mean, I don't want to spend too much time on that. It was just that's why she puts 15 phaser shots into it on kill. Right. Right. She's like, this is the immediate threat. And and I'm also always here for beat the tiny robots with a magnet. Like, I don't care if that's dumb. I'm here for it. Like, I'm always here for warping into a sea of dead corpses. That's redundant.

[00:48:00] But, you know, I mean, yeah, I also hate when I run into a frozen body with my car and you turn on the windshield wipers and I was smearing it all over. And it's just it's a mess. You got to pull over and get the rag. Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and smear one more call across our screen and hear from Michi. Hi, guys. This is Michi. And here are my thoughts about episode 12. I think this is the main Pike episode of Discovery. So I'm only talking about his plot line.

[00:48:29] For me, it is a prequel for Strange New Worlds where the character of Christopher Pike is defined and you see exactly what kind of man he is. In the beginning, he is excited, optimistic, hopeful to go to the monastery, do his job, save the galaxy. And then he sees his future and the melting face was really creepy. He was shocked, terrified, and he calms himself down by reminding himself of who he is.

[00:48:58] Everything that defines him. Starfleet, his core values, compassion, service, love, sacrifice. It was such a strong scene. And Anson was so good on it. And this whole episode. He played the change in Pike so well. The contrast from Pike in the beginning was so strong. In the end, he was calmer, more quiet, but after all, still the captain that didn't hesitate to

[00:49:27] make the hard decisions, like evacuating and destroying the ship. I love this episode. And I don't really care about the time crystals. All I see is Pike and Anson's great performance. So that's it for me for now. Have a great day. Bye. Thank you so much for reiterating my point that Pike is a servant leader. He's a very good manager. He knows the core values. He can state them on a dive right out loud.

[00:49:57] Like, this guy is a company man, but he's also a good person. And that's why we love Captain Pike. That's really the essence of it. And I think what illustrates that is that, like, you see him mention the things he believes in, right? And one of those things is love. And as I was watching through, I was like, well, okay, so he's serving. He's helping everybody sacrifice. He's willing to, you know, go down this path that leads to a future of

[00:50:26] pain for him, that kind of thing. Compassion. He's doing this to help others. But love, like, where is the love part of this? And the answer is that it's when he gets back and he's talking to Ash and Laurel. He doesn't need to say, like, oh, hey, I met your son. He's really good at what he does, which is a very specific job. But he has just been traumatized by this, and he still takes the time to

[00:50:54] share that with Tanavik's parents, which is, like, that's the love that he was talking about. And it's one more thing on that thousand item list that makes us love Captain Pike. I do love when characters say something like, oh, I couldn't explain it if I tried. Well, you literally had a character explain it, like, 20 minutes ago with a single line of dialogue. Like, I think Pike could probably figure it out, but I get it. It's fine. It's a good trope. Michi, I agree with a lot. My next note written was, ew, Pike's melty face.

[00:51:23] That was so cool. And I think, I mean, you're absolutely right. This is the episode you need. Like, if you were only to watch one episode from the season before Strangely Worlds, it should be this one. This explains why we find Pike with a big shaggy beard in Montana, wherever his farm is. Yeah. I mean, this directly, I mean, yeah. I'm now realizing, like, where he starts Strangely Worlds, you need what he goes through in this episode. And it does take him there in a pretty

[00:51:52] direct line. It does. A real, real nerdy Star Trek complaint or maybe question. They complain, I think it was Jet complains about vegan steak. Isn't all steak vegan in the Star Trek universe? Or is that just TNG era? It's made of shit. And it's pretty good for shit. Yeah. Is shit vegan? I guess not. Maybe not. Well, you know. It's an animal byproduct. It's a whole shit of Theseus discussion, right?

[00:52:21] Because, like, they're breaking down the particles. They're turning them into other things. Like, at what point is it no longer vegan? What, you know? I mean, I think it's a fair question, Cameron. You just said the shit of Theseus? Yeah. That's amazing. You're welcome. That is very good. But we also know there's some, you know, snobs that like to only cook actual food and not replicated things. So maybe it was like demanding a vegan steak from scratch.

[00:52:52] Cooked. Sure. I mean, I know we can't take season one of TNG as canon, but there is a whole episode where Riker's like, we evolved beyond eating animals. We would never consider that. Well, Cameron, season one of TNG takes place hundreds of years after this episode. Right. That's what I'm saying. Is it just a TNG era thing where people have stopped eating meat? Certainly wasn't an enterprise because T'Pol's always icked out about it. And like, I don't think we ever

[00:53:20] explicitly got replicators in TOS or like they never said the word replicator. They had the food cubes, right? They make ice cream in that terrible episode. Is it? And the children shall lead or whatever in season three. Chapel makes them ice cream in a replicator. But I don't think they call it a replicator. I think they call it like a food synthesizer or something like that. Yeah, I think you're right. There's also the episode of the animated series where the computer

[00:53:49] gets real mischievous and starts like flinging pies at people. So they obviously have the technology. Well, when they went back in time and they were eating fried chicken, they're like, oh, what's this great food on a stick? And it's like, no, that's the animal meat on the... Oh, no, I'm thinking of Masters of the Universe. Sorry. Get those two movies confused all the time. It happens. It's totally cool. Now, I do want to talk a little bit more about this fight between Michael

[00:54:17] and Control Gantz because, I mean, we've mentioned it a lot that Sonequa Martin-Green is a hell of an actor in every single way. But like the physicality that she brings to fight scenes is endlessly impressive to me. I do feel she probably could have aimed better if the camera would just stand still for a moment. Sure. She has two phasers at one point, right? It's like absolutely a Matrix style.

[00:54:45] Have you never fired two guns whilst falling and going, ah? It was everything that... There was nothing about that part of the episode that was not tropey. Oh, I mean, it was Terminator 2. But it was fine. Like, to me, it works. And I really like it. I mean, I think the solution, Spock's solution of like magnetizing the floor was great. Like, that totally makes sense. You don't immediately think of it, but you're like, oh, this is something that

[00:55:15] has been established. It could work. I feel like they could have been visualized better. Like, if you're going to have a metal person suddenly get magnetized on the floor, like, there's some opportunity for some cool visuals there. And it was kind of like, oh, what just happened? It just looked like they kind of melted the metal. It does almost feel like they had him get shot 50 times and then the robots leave him so they wouldn't have to do that effect. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just erase the mist as it hits the ground. It's fine.

[00:55:43] Like, it may have been a money saver. The other thing I really like about this, you know, talking about literary tropes, is that when he gets onto the ship with Michael and Gantz, Spock doesn't know that his hand is already full of Chekhov's shattered metacarpals. But then when he gets his metacarpals shattered, he just is like holding it very casually going like, here's the next thing that we need to do.

[00:56:12] He's not complaining. You don't see any pain on his face. Like, this is your reminder. These are both badass officers. And that's why Gantz never stood a chance. Yeah. Can I ask or get your take on something which is, you know, there's a few points in this episode where they basically acknowledge that, like, Michael is reasonably angry. Saru mentions it. Spock mentions it. And I feel like they're saying she's angry at Leland.

[00:56:42] But I feel like she's more actually just angry at herself in this episode. But I'm or do you think that it's like a mix of things? Or what do you feel like is her motivation in this moment? That's a good question. I mean, my knee-jerk reaction, she's kind of, yeah, kind of scattershotting angry at everyone. And maybe it's realizing it's all coming back to herself. Because I think she's probably still emotionally angry at her mom. Like, they kind of resolve things at the

[00:57:12] end of the last episode. But still, there was a lot unresolved there. So I think she's angry at her. Sure, angry at Leland. But also knowing Leland is basically dead and now this is actually control. Yeah, angry at herself. Angry at, clearly angry at Spock. I think it's one of her more human seasons. Because to me, she's angry at the world. You know, the universe. Right? Like, she is just angry.

[00:57:42] And there are so many reasons. She's probably mad that Ash Tyler didn't tell her she had a badass time stepson. Right? Like, she's mad at her mom that she didn't let her help. She's mad at herself for failing to solve this problem. She's probably still mad about the loss of Arium. She's mad that this force is interfering in her life. Because as we know, Michael puts the fate of the universe on her shoulders. Yeah. Like, for breakfast.

[00:58:12] Yeah. Right? So, it's kind of interesting and I'm sort of realizing right now that maybe the reason they call this AI control is because that's the one thing Michael craves. And this is them showing us, no, control is not always good for you, Michael. Interesting. Sometimes you have to go with the flow. You have to learn to react rather than anticipate and attempt to alter. The leaf on the wind. Right.

[00:58:41] You've got to let time take its course. And sometimes, the other thing that I like about this is that sometimes the answer is time. Right? Like, there's a reason people say time heals all wounds. It's like sometimes only temporal distance between you and a thing is what's going to help you heal. But, anger can be a very useful tool when directed correctly. And I think that's why they take the time here

[00:59:10] to show us that Michael's anger is righteous. She's not petulant. Yeah. Right? She's not a teenager about it. She's angry because she can see these huge swirling forces of destiny and she knows this is above my pay grade on a metaphysical scale. And that drives her bananas. It's, I mean, I love... It's not my job description, but I'm the only one to do it. I love Michael Burnham so damn much.

[00:59:42] I mean, your overall point is correct. I don't want to take away from that. But, I wouldn't say she's not free of petulance. Her and Spock's relationship is one of the best things to come out of this season. Yeah. And I know I have issues with it in other episodes and with Spock in general, but like, their conversation when they're getting on the shuttle is so good and so sibling rivalry filtered through a Vulcan sieve. Like, it's, I mean,

[01:00:10] that was just some amazing writing and acting in that moment and throughout this episode. Yeah, I love it. It's your reminder that both of these characters are incredibly emotional no matter how much either of them would try to hide it. Right. But, they will continually point out how emotional the other one is being while being equally emotional themselves, which is so brother-sister. What about, what about you, Jara? What's your, what do you think your answer is to that question? Because it's a really good question. I like what you're saying about it being kind of everything. I

[01:00:40] think that, you know, in the very beginning where she's watching her mom's log and she has that scene with Amanda where she's saying basically I thought she was dead but it was so much worse. She was doing this thing and then I failed her. Um, and, so that's what she's kind of carrying in and she's also, I think, angry about this whole episode. She's, you know, basically saying like, the signals don't mean anything or they don't mean anything anymore and we just need to go after Leland. Um,

[01:01:11] but then like realizing no, actually they did and I think she wishes she just had known all along. Um, and is, but I think like she's definitely beating up on herself a bit. Um, and she's angry about all of the things that you mentioned. Yeah, she's, I mean, and again, rightfully so. Like, I mean, another reason for it is like she has no downtime to process that. I mean, this is,

[01:01:40] this is Star Trek Discovery. There is no downtime for her. She is, it's one crisis after another for her. There was the moment where we see Detmer and them in the mess hall. I'm like, oh my God, are we going to get just some downtime? And then immediately like it pans over to Paul being super moody and emo and I'm like, oh God, of course we got drama here. Yeah. But you know what makes it worth it for me, Cameron? You can absolutely see O-O and Detmer falling in love across that cafeteria table. Yes, for sure. That's completely worth it

[01:02:09] just for that. Like, I'm, I'm ride or die for O-O and Detmer. Mm-hmm. Choke on that, Linus. Speaking of ride or die, we have another call here from one of our strongest, most ardent supporters and that, of course, is Engineer Mark. Hi, OpenPikeNight Engineer Mark here. And now, with Discovery, we are in the endgame for sure. The plots are getting towards conclusions. Control is still trying

[01:02:39] to be the Borg, although in a slightly different manner. And the whole bizarre ash, well, square, with Burnham, Voke, and L'Rell is still rolling along. And, well, it's so timey-wimey. It was a very nice touch on giving the monastery that effect when Pike was there. You could almost feel it. Now, on that part, I did a little looking into it. And one thing that's a point here, Pike getting his backstory

[01:03:08] was not prepping for Strange New Worlds. It was a full year after this episode aired that Alex Kurtzman, after a very positive fan response, got Strange New Worlds into development in March of 2020 with production rolling by that May. And, well, the end of this episode leaves us with more questions than answers. I agree with you guys from last week. It's like one long movie that we're getting

[01:03:37] one commercial break at a time. Well, until that next scene, live long and prosper. That's a really good point because we've been talking all season about how, oh, here's clearly the moment where they realized Ansem Out could carry a series, Strange New Worlds as a thing would succeed. But Mark is completely correct. Like, that was not a plan when this aired. It took an actual old school Star Trek style letter writing campaign and a lot of outcry from fans to get that series made.

[01:04:07] Which is one of the reasons... if they would have included this if they'd known they were going to continue a story with Strange New Worlds. So, my guess is that the inclusion of Akiva Goldsman as part of the creative team meant they would do this because he is such a TOS fan and like, he cannot, this is not a knock, but like, he cannot help himself when he has the TOS toys to play with. He's like, well, we gotta do the TOS stuff which I totally get. So, I think that even if there were not going to be

[01:04:37] another series and even if Kurtzman were to say to him, look, there's no chance, he still would have gone, okay, well then I'm gonna tell the story from the cage from a different angle. like, well, I'm saying if they'd known if they, the opposite of that. Oh, I see it. If they knew they were going to make Strange New Worlds, would they save this storyline for that? I think because they brought in like, the Talosians and Veena, they had to. Yeah. Yeah. because otherwise you're just missing half the story. Yeah.

[01:05:05] And I think it was a nice way of bringing in, yeah, these kind of classic Trek dynamics and some characters we knew in a way that I think complemented the core of Discovery and didn't, you know, take away from it. Completely agree. And Cameron, you had mentioned Michael not having any time to breathe. time. That's like, absolutely my favorite part of season three is that

[01:05:35] Michael finally gets some time to breathe. Season three's my fave. And Ash Tyler gets replaced with a very good match for Michael. Yes. Michael's best match in all of time and space. Like, I'm, I'm literally considering watching the rest of Discovery again after this because it's like, you need that breather. Like, other side of this. Yeah. And, but to Mark's point, you're right.

[01:06:05] Love square just doesn't sound as steamy as love triangle. Like, it's, it's, I think it's because of the word square. Yeah. It could be a love rectangle. Yeah, there you go. Because all squares something. Mark mentioned one long movie with the commercial breaks. Was I crazy? Was there a commercial break in this episode? I, well, basically every time they smash cut to black is where they would put a commercial, but. Was this aired on TV?

[01:06:35] Uh, well, Paramount Plus, I believe, has always had an ad supported and ad free tier. Yeah. Okay. Um, now, I will say. It's just one of the first, like, it was in the middle of the action and then they came back to the action. I feel like usually they put them between scenes. Right. Um, I, I will also say, like, of all the streaming services I've ever used that have ads on them, Paramount Plus, not great at putting those ads where they're intended to go in the episode. Like, yeah, they'll just put them in wherever. Like,

[01:07:05] there's no algorithm. It's just like, set amount of time, ad, set amount of time, ad. Like, it's kind of like watching Tubi, if you've ever watched Tubi. Yeah, yeah. Which I highly recommend. In the middle of a word. It has its place. Yeah, seriously. Um, but it is, I mean, it's interesting because I feel like for the first few episodes of this season, we could see, like, that classic, what is it, a five-act structure that they use for Star Trek usually? Sure. Yeah, yeah. And here,

[01:07:35] towards the end of this season, as Jera mentioned, it's like the exposition pacing crunch, right? Like, so it feels like those start to get stretched. They blend into each other a little bit more. I mean, to that point, this is the fourth signal and there are seven signals and there are two episodes left. I did the math. I was like, I mean, it's absolutely there. I mean, there's, there's no way to get around

[01:08:05] what some people would call, like, the issues with Discovery Season 2. I mean, I love their logic, too, of like, well, we can't chase Leland. We'd be taking the data right to them. Good point. So let's go chase this red signal, which I'm sure Leland slash Control knows about and will clearly know to go find us there. Again, they are limited in what they can get away with. Like, point being, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Well, my final note is at, you know,

[01:08:34] we get to the end and like I was mentioning, Pike comes up with the time crystals. Like, hey, everyone, I got the time crystals. Woo! Don't want to know what that cost me. And they're like, actually, you know, we don't have enough time to do this. We can't do this. We need that. We don't have enough time. They're kind of breaking down why there's just not enough time. And oh my God, it felt like they were setting it up for the Bill and Ted ending. Where someone was just going to be like, all right, so when we get out of this, we will have enough time to make the time machine and we'll come back and we'll do that.

[01:09:04] There was a moment where I was like, are they doing that? Spoiler alert. I want, I like, drunk Deanna Troy from First Contact being like, time! There isn't enough time! We don't have time to talk about time. And then the completely superfluous shot of Riker as Elvis for three frames. He just, he just does like the neck jerk and then it cuts to something else. Again, completely here for that. Yeah, it turns out it was all Riker's hologram.

[01:09:36] Easily believable. He gets to do everything in that movie and he's not even, air quotes, the main character. He did direct it though so maybe that's something to do with it. Yeah. No shade to Jonathan Frakes. Thank you for joining us. If you haven't listened to our episode with Jonathan Frakes, go back a couple in the feed and check it out. I think my last note, Cameron, well, I think I may have two. One of them being that I'm so happy that Michael gets

[01:10:05] a you're not Jonesy moment with Lieutenant Gantz. Like, Dreamcatcher is not a great movie but the line delivery of you're not Jonesy is so good and I was like, I love it. Like, I love a duplicate bad guy like sudden realization moment. Again, it's an episode and arguably a season full of tropes but tropes exist for a reason, right? Because they're effective and when done well, they're a lot of fun. And then

[01:10:34] the last note I have is a question. Why does Pike say send a message to Enterprise's XO instead of just saying Enterprise? Like, you don't have to talk around Una's not yet decided name if you just name the ship. Everybody knows what the Enterprise is. Like, you don't have to specify that. Just say send a message to the Enterprise that says this. Why does he specify the Enterprise's XO?

[01:11:04] He's, you know, this is a Federation ship. Aliens, you know, come together and live on this ship and work on this ship. I'm pretty sure there's been episodes about alien species that just take everything way too literally. We look for things that make us go. Yeah, exactly. There could be a Pakled communications officer there who just like sends the, doesn't actually send it to any person. It doesn't go into the ship. It just bounces off the whole. You're saying there's an ensign on the Enterprise going, the files are

[01:11:33] in the computer? On the Discovery, yes. Pike is worried about it. Pike's run into that in the past and so he checks himself now. He's a servant leader. Maybe it's that he wants to avoid it going to like some ensign who isn't read in on the situation and like it can only go to Una because she's like charged with how secret and important this is. Okay, that's a much better answer and I'm going to take that as canon.

[01:12:03] Because we know that Ahura is not on communications yet. Who's on communications right now in the Enterprise? Oh, probably some jerk if the old Enterprise science officer is any example of who's crewing that ship. What was her name who, you know, got in trouble with the Bullion. We interviewed her. Did the character have a name? She had a name. It's not Mitchell. It was Jennifer Huey played her. Oh my God. Anyway,

[01:12:32] we know that she was not the best communications officer, which is why Ahura ends up replacing her. So I think he just knew. Make sure it goes straight to the XO. Okay, her character name was Ensign Christina, which begs the question, is Christina her last name? Jesse, we've talked about this. We've had this whole conversation before, like three years ago. Are you saying we're in a time loop right now? We might be in a time loop. break out of it? No, but I, Jera, I legitimately like the answer of

[01:13:02] this is him illustrating he only trusts Una with this information because that works for me and that fits with the relationship we know that they have. All right, do either of you have any other points that you feel you must make before we get to the fun part of the episode? No, although I would argue it's all been fun. Thank you. I was going to make the same point. Yes. Well, let's let John start us off because he may have some general thoughts on the episode. I will.

[01:13:30] So, as you know, we call this season Disco Inferno not just because of the Discovery or the Time Inferno, but because we are bringing songs with us every episode that we feel really fit the vibe of what's going on, man. And because he hasn't been here to make fun of us for being nerds and challenging some of the cinematography choices, we're going to let producer John go first in the song section.

[01:14:00] Hey, guys. Producer John here. Sorry, I was playing with the Time Crystals. I didn't realize that they were active. I kind of thought the Klingons had used them all up, but apparently one was still good, so I had to jump ahead. So I'm not going to be here for this recording. I'm sure Jesse and Cam and our fantastic guests have all had a fantastic discussion. So I know that you've been in good hands for this very important episode. This is the episode that started that officially started Strange

[01:14:30] New Worlds. I mean, they said, we want to make a show. We want to put a twist on it. The twist is he knows his fate. So I picked a song this week that's a little bit complicated because it doesn't have lyrics and it is absolutely about Pike. You all know I pick a character to focus on and we're picking Pike, so I'm going to pick 12 Ghosts 2 by Nine Inch Nails from

[01:14:59] their Ghosts 1 through 4 album. It is a piece that starts off at short, it's like 2 minutes and 20 seconds. It starts off very slow, simple piano playing kind of a mournful tune and I feel like that embodies what Pike is up until this episode. He is somebody who likes to be right but doesn't have to be right. He is somebody who has to be righteous and sometimes doesn't like to be righteous.

[01:15:29] He's somebody who I think when he got held back from the Klingon war was not disappointed that he didn't get to battle but he was disappointed that he wasn't there to do his part and now he's trying to do his part. And so the first half of this song is a little bit mournful, is very simple and straightforward and a very just lovely tune and then halfway through the tune changes. The piano is still there but

[01:15:58] it is overwritten by this driving fuzzy guitar and heavy, heavy bass. Like if you listen to this on a little speaker you won't even hear that the piano is still playing. You'll just hear the noise and I picture that noise as the moment when he knows what his fate is and what his time is and that time is finite because I don't think up until the moment he saw his future that he believed that he had finite time.

[01:16:27] Not in a delusional way just in a way that a lot of us don't believe it. But that noise I feel, the noise in the second half of this song represents what is going on for the rest of his life. Everything he does, everything we've seen him do in seasons one and two of Strange New Worlds and we'll see in season three and hopefully four, five, six, seven, who knows how many. That noise is always there pushing, driving but if you listen underneath the piano

[01:16:57] it actually gets more emphatic, more powerful, more driven. The keys are being struck harder and pushed and I just really really feel like this song would embody what it feels like to go from a life of not knowing what your place is entirely to knowing what your end is entirely and deciding what to do with that time. So I hope you all enjoyed this discussion. Go listen to 12 Ghosts 2. Listen to the whole album, Ghosts 1 through 4.

[01:17:26] I believe 34 Ghosts 4 is actually the song that got Trent Reznor to be part of Old Town Road. So yeah, go listen to that. It's a great album. This has been a great series and I cannot wait until we get to the finale and see season three of Strange New Worlds. Well, now I want Trent Reznor to score a Star Trek movie. Well, he's scoring Tron 3, which is the only reason I was considering

[01:17:56] it because I was like, no Daft Punk, are you serious? And you're putting Jared Leto in this? Like, I don't know. And then they were like, nine-inch nails. I was like, all right, I'll give it a shot. A couple things here. John, I'm pretty sure you went over the 90 second time limit, but you know what? I'm gonna let it slide this time because of the time crystals. Now, a couple notes here. Excellent pick. You know I'm always here for Nine-inch Nails. Two things. We have the spreadsheet of the songs that we picked for season five of

[01:18:26] Discovery so that we don't ever accidentally double up. And I was sure that John introducing, saying this is a little complicated, I was like, oh, he's gonna pick Complicated by Avril Lavigne, which he already picked for season three of season five. But then he picked a Nine-inch Nails song, which again, how is John picking two Nine-inch Nails songs before I have picked a single Nine-inch Nails song? Because he also picked Nine-inch Nails for episode four of season five. Man, I guess it just comes down to

[01:18:55] producer John having great taste and being less filling. Wait, no, that's a slogan for something else. John, you have great taste in music and you really know how to put a song to a track. Very well done, sir. Well, I was worried he was going to take mine because I also picked a track with no lyrics. I went back and forth on some. This may be a little out of the box, but also right on the money. The unifying theme of this

[01:19:25] episode is not auto-antonyms. It is realizing one's fate, one's destiny. All right, Pike goes down, he literally comes face to face with his destiny and he takes the crystal, sealing it according to baby Ash. the whole time. Burnham is saying, I have nothing to do with these signals. This isn't about me. It's not about me. Oh shit, it's all about me. And that's what she realizes at the end of the episode. She's embracing her destiny here. So I think I have to pick the theme song

[01:19:54] from a movie that's all about whether we have a say in our fate and also a movie that I've evoked many times because there's a T-1000 in this. It's the Terminator 2 theme song. One of the best movie theme songs of all time. By Brad Fidel. I mean, I love that like this is one of the greatest scores of all time and it's by some random guy. Like, it's not a John Williams, it's not an Ennio Morricone,

[01:20:24] it's Brad Fidel. I don't know what else he's done, but he did the Terminator theme and it's incredible. And, you know, it's got that softness, that mournfulness that John was talking about, but then that driving metallic beat of control chasing you. And, you know, do we have fate or is Judgment Day set in stone? Both the Star Trek universe and the Terminator universe can't decide. It tries to have it both ways and, you know, I think it fits. Well, I think Star Trek universe absolutely has fate and it is a force that must be reckoned with.

[01:20:54] But I feel like I'm holding a pocket because we actually made this joke in season one of Strange New Worlds when no fate, like, hey, there's no fate, man. It's all up to you. And then we immediately inserted that song where Pike is staring into the fire because you're right. It's the exact same beat as no fate but what we make for ourselves in Terminator too. Again, tropes work for a reason and they exist for a reason.

[01:21:22] I would like to hear your choice for this episode, Jera. Yeah, so I just went more literal and very obscure. so it's a song by the New Zealand indie band The Beths and it's called Future Me Hates Me. And it's, I mean, it's basically about the idea that of

[01:21:52] someone who is realizing like, I'm going to get into a relationship relationship and I, there's something about it that like makes me want to risk it and it talks about like future heartbreak, future headaches, wide-eyed nights lying awake with future cold shakes from stupid mistakes, future me hates me. and I feel like this speaks to both Pike and a little bit Michael when like

[01:22:22] two episodes she's going to be like, what were you doing two episodes ago? So yeah, I just liked that idea of like, he knows it's going to suck but he's going to do it anyway and it's not about a romantic relationship but it's about his you know, love for Starfleet and for the universe and other people and yeah, so that's what I picked. I really, really like that pick.

[01:22:51] I can't remember who it was. I think it was a comedian said something along the lines of maturity is nothing more than wanting to go back in time and kick your own ass. I'm like, that is the essence of this entire season, essence of that song. I cannot wait to check out future me hates me. I'm excited to discover a New Zealand band that's not Flight of the County. Yeah, they exist.

[01:23:21] All right, well, I'm gonna stick to the pattern that I have been illustrating for most of my song picks here, but I do want to say, like, my first thought for this episode was Blue by Eiffel 65 because the whole episode has Blue Filter on it. start to finish, this may be the bluest episode of the entire season, the car, the window, the Corvette is standing outside,

[01:23:50] but I thought, you know, maybe that's a little bit too cheeky, and I'm sure I can find something with a little more meaning in it, and I think I succeeded. Now, I was giving John a little bit of a hard time for picking two songs from the same band, but guess what? I picked a Killswitch Engage song and it's called When Darkness Falls, and I picked it because the lyrics of it, maybe not necessarily the energy, although I do think Discovery,

[01:24:20] Michael Burnham, very metal, and let's be real, Laurel's outfit in this is absolutely her getting ready to go perform at a metal concert after this whole thing wraps up, so I think it fits, but we've got lyrics like, I stand firm in my solidarity the path I walk, I walk it with my own resolve. When darkness falls, we are reborn. This is Pike realizing, hey, I can still be who I want to be or a version of who I want to be, even though I'm kind

[01:24:50] of surprised and a little bit traumatized about this future. My beliefs are not antiquated. We are the hope. Silence them all with not just words. Let resolution be our voice. Killswitch Engage is a band that if you listen to it a lot, you'll start to realize like, oh, this is actually mostly positive affirmational metal, and that's why I have chosen When Darkness Falls by Killswitch Engage for this episode. That's great. I think that

[01:25:20] you all focused more on the vibe of the song, which I think is awesome, and I think you have really connected the song vibe with the episode vibe. Yeah, mine is a bop. It does not match the vibe, but I think the lyrics are good for the episode. Sometimes we have definitely picked songs for the lyrics sake only, for sure, yeah. Yeah, I definitely picked eye to eye from a goofy movie for an episode, and I just made it fit,

[01:25:49] so we're completely here for bops. Excellent, excellent picks all the way around. Now, I can hear you, listener, out there in the time storm, or a time storm? Out there in the time storm, thinking, this seems like it would be really fun to call into Open Pike Night and have my voice heard and share my opinions on this crazy fun mess, and the easiest way for you to do that is to just go to Open Pike.com. There's a little pop-up on the screen, you can record right there, all you need is a phone,

[01:26:18] but of course, if you're like John and you disregard all the rules with the time limit, etc., and you want to use a microphone, you can record your MP3 and send it to openpike at gmail.com. And hey, if you want to get together in a cool online space and share Star Trek memes and shut out the rest of the outside world, especially now, you can follow us on BlueSky at Open Pike. Jarrah, what would you like to plug? Where else can folks find you? How do they get

[01:26:48] more Jarrah in their lives? Yeah, for sure. So, Women at Warp, the Star Trek podcast that I co-host just wrapped up our 10-year run, so we have a back catalog of 259 episodes plus supplementals that you can check out at womenatwarp.com. You can also find me at trekkiefeminist.com and I'm also on BlueSky and Instagram at jarrahpenguin, which is J-A-R-R-A-H penguin.

[01:27:18] I love it. And Cameron, I know you're no longer a newbie, but what have you been doing over at Green Shirt, a newbie's trek through the next generation? Yeah, we finally wrapped up TNG. We're in the middle of the movies right now. We'll have just dropped our epic almost three hour episode conversation on Star Trek Insurrection shortly before you're listening to this. With Nemesis coming up, I don't know if we'll have as much to say about Nemesis, but having watched it once,

[01:27:47] I imagine we'll have a lot to say about Star Trek Nemesis as well. But now is a great time to catch up on all of our backlog because after that we will probably be taking a bit of a break for the summer, so fill in all the green shirt gaps in the meantime and then we'll be back with some Picard coverage at the end of the summer. Excellent to hear. As a person who has listened to every episode of your Star Trek journey, I cannot recommend enough that people start with episode one and listen to all seven seasons.

[01:28:17] It's a ride. Last thing of note, depending on how you count, this is kind of the 100th episode of Open Pike Night, so I just want to say a very large, all-encompassing thank you to everybody who has helped make Open Pike Night what it is. Guests like Jarrah, callers like everybody who spoke with us tonight, supporters on Patreon, people that do share memes with us on social media. If you've ever clicked like, or repost, or downloaded an episode, or become a patron, if you've supported us

[01:28:47] in any way, even if you weren't vocal about it and we don't know who you are, thank you so much for helping us make Open Pike Night what it is. This is the most fun that I have ever had talking with Star Trek nerds, and I hope that it time crystals. But we do hope that you will be back with us soon for season two, episode 13 of Star Trek Discovery, Such Sweet Sorrow Part

[01:29:17] One. It is about to get so real, people. But it has been a long night. The Open Pike Night crew has raw time crystal. That's how Jet Reno referred to it, raw time crystal, not active, John. We have raw time crystal to simmer, saute, chop finely, and sprinkle over a salad. So, be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers,

[01:29:46] and you can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here. Is that similar to vegan time crystal? No, it's all made of shit.