Disco Inferno 8 - “If Memory Serves”

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds Podcast where your personal logs are the prime directive. I'm your host, John T. Boulds, here tonight to discuss our coverage of Discovery Season 2, Episode 8 and our ongoing Disco Inferno series. Joining me, of course, are my co-hosts, the man who absolutely wishes he were, Dr. Colbert.

[00:00:50] In this episode, because he gets to smack the crap out of Voke and Ash Tyler, Jesse Bailey. And looks better in civilian clothing than 98% of Star Trek characters, but you're totally right, that's like half my notes. Yeah, no, it's like just one more reason to wish you were him. I'm not saying it's the only reason. Yeah. We all wish we were Wilson Cruz, Dr. Colbert, but...

[00:01:13] And of course, we are joined by our other host, the man who wishes he had strapped a seatbelt to his couch before they showed us the first shot of the Section 31 ship, Cameron Not-So-Green-Shirt Harrison. That is a Star Trek 5 poster reference? Wow. No, they just did the spinny camera as soon as they got into the Section 31 ship. Like, the camera did a full 360. I was like, oh.

[00:01:37] You're talking about my second shot where, like, they almost made it work, too, because they cut from an exterior spinny shot of the ship, which makes sense because the ship's spinning in space. I'm fine with that. And then you could have just cut on the spin into inside, and it would have been fine. But no, they stopped the camera outside from spinning, then cut to inside where it's spinning again, and it just ruined the whole thing. Someone take that camera rig away from them. Yeah, that camera rig is out of control. Like, they must have forgotten there was a locking knob on it.

[00:02:06] I mean, I like to just think somebody's like, oh, that looked cool. It's like, I forgot how to stop that from happening. So it just kind of happened in that shot. It's like someone made a camera-sized fidget spinner, and the DP is just there. And I do, I really wonder if the DP every episode is like, can I spin the camera? Again, and he's like, please, can I spin the camera? They're like, just let him do it. It's so smooth. We'll do alternate takes. And then they just never do the alternate takes. Like, they run out of time. Yeah, time and budget.

[00:02:36] And I'm not one who usually complains about lens flares. I'm fine with a lot of lens flares. There's maybe a few too many lens flares in this episode. A lot of lens flares. Disagree. Yeah. Oh, well, we are here discussing this episode, which is Discovery Season 2, Episode 8, If Memory Serves. And my memory did not serve me this episode because I thought this was the Time Crystal episode. I'm following in the footsteps of our last week's guest, Steve.

[00:03:05] This was the wrong episode. My memory didn't serve because I thought I liked this episode, but. Oh, it's fine. Both? Hi. This is a great episode. And it has the single most stylish episode recap I have ever seen. Of course. I mean. Previously on Star Trek with all the smash cuts and the like piecing out of the cutout characters. There's like the balls it takes to do this in your still incredibly new Star Trek series

[00:03:35] that's attempting to bring new fans into the universe are pretty huge. And I absolutely will argue for the next two hours and 35 minutes that they succeeded. I'm sure it won't be that long, but. I mean, that is the best previously on ever. Yes. Ever done. Absolutely. I mean, I remember when I sat down and watched this, I was like, oh yeah, it's that, uh, it's that, uh, that TOS pilot. Maybe it's time I finally watched the pilot.

[00:04:03] So I stopped this episode and watched, I did a whole feature length previously on just to get caught up for this episode. Maybe that's why I remember it fondly because I really enjoyed the cage. Well, and that's an accomplishment. Like we've talked about before, like if you can watch an episode of Star Trek and your immediate reaction is, I think I should watch more Star Trek. That's a success. Exactly. A hundred percent. Like any media franchise in the world will take that all the way to the bank every day of the week.

[00:04:31] I think I'm out of cliches for that, but people do complain about the discovery Klingons, right? But discovery tellurites are scary. Like this, this hologram dude who's part of the command unit. He's like very intense. I would be incredibly intimidated. Yeah. The tellurites were very cool. When you mentioned the Klingons though, I do feel like the telosians from 60 years ago looked more interesting than these telosians.

[00:04:59] These telosians kind of look like discovery Klingons, which is kind of my problem with the discovery Klingon makeup is they just look like space orcs. Like everything. They have like that nose. Yeah. Yeah. They really like that big square nose. Yeah. I'm not a hundred percent like a defender of that, but what I do really like about these telosians is that they're pulsing brains. Like you can tell it's CGI, but it's exactly as subtle as the pulsing brains in the cage, right?

[00:05:29] It's like, it's there, you can see it and they make sure that you see it, but it really, it feels like a great version of that. I'm going to be honest. I don't think I noticed it. Let's watch through. There was a little, it's, it's primarily in like three or four shots, right? When they get introduced, it might be because everything in those scenes is super dark. And I'm going to save that rant for later.

[00:05:54] It is a little dark, but it's got, I personally think that the lens flare you were referring to is there as like a counterbalance to that. Like this is a new and shiny version of an old semi-evil alien. Like they're not evil, but they have, you know, uh, questionable tactics. They're pretty good this episode. Yeah, they are. I really like pretty reasonable. Yeah. Yeah. But they demand like an emotional toll. I do want to spend, I don't hate this episode. It's fine.

[00:06:23] I just, I remember there's an episode. There's a point where I did start really enjoying the season on my last watch. And I thought this was the episode that it happened in. I still have some issues with this episode. It must be a later one when I, when I click over. I think this episode is definitely like the conclusion of the first arc of this season where it's like, we got to find Spock. We got to know what the red angel is. And from here it gets incredibly wacky, but like, to me, this is one of the last few

[00:06:51] like semi-grounded episodes of season two. And that's not an indictment on any of season two. I think it's probably still my favorite season of discovery, but like they have been building up so much that happens in this episode that, and I feel like they kind of pulled it off. And starting with that recap and fading Jeffrey Hunter into Anson Mount is a really smooth move. And like Pike's steely stare straight down the camera has got to be the moment that folks

[00:07:20] at Paramount went, oh, there's a whole series behind those baby blues. Let's get this guy on contract. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Before we leave the previously on entirely, I did do a little bit of research because I was like, I feel like there's been some other good ones though. And I thought fringe maybe did when I couldn't find anything on the internet about a good previously on with fringe. I guess Dr. Who did something pretty much just like this, where they did a previously on to like series four recently.

[00:07:47] Um, and then Clerks has a funny one in the first episode, the animated series of Clerks, the very first episode they say previously on, and then it's just like a bars and tones screen for half a second. We didn't shoot that. I'll be honest. Like I don't skip theme songs, but sometimes I skip previously ons and anymore. It's because those tend to spoil what's about to happen in the next episode. So I'm like, I'm, I'm not here for this, but this one, I never skip.

[00:08:16] And I'd say about 50% of the time I go back and watch the cage again because it's like, it's so silly and fun and high concept despite the low budget. Like there's, there's a lot to be said for what that single episode of television managed to create. Like the legacy of the cage is incredibly fruitful and prolific. Did Vina, Vina, is that her name? Yep. And Spock ever meet in the cage?

[00:08:46] Yes. Yes. I'm 90% sure. Enough for her to recognize him at least, I guess. Oh yeah. Yeah. He's, he's on the planet for the introduction. Oh sure. Yeah, that's right. And she's there. I believe he goes. Yeah. And then he and Una, whose name we didn't know was Una at the time, go back up to the ship. And I think Dr. Boyce is down there with them for the introduction as well.

[00:09:12] So I, part of me was like, she should ask about Dr. Boyce, but I mean, they're already leaning heavy into the member. But that moment, which is like, oh, Spock, this looks rough. So, uh, Pike, is he, is he going to stop by? Is he, is he coming by? Should I put on a kettle? Yeah. Put on something more comfortable. Sorry about your brain and stuff, but is Chris with you? Like I could, I could just, if you want to just hand me your communicator. Actually, if you want to just give me his number, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fate of the universe though.

[00:09:41] Is Chris here? It's not just you two though. Right. Like, I mean, you guys are great, but I've heard his hair is way better now. Is that true? Except for the sideburns. Holy God. Not in this episode. It's not. This episode, it made me wonder, like, were they constantly tweaking his hair? Like, did he get a haircut without telling anybody? Like what was going on? Cause it, it was so solid for a couple episodes. And in this one, I was like, what's happening?

[00:10:09] And like, can't you just grow it out and spike it straight up? Okay. You did. All right. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Thank you. But yes, John, to your point, Culber and Civis, damn. And is it just me or should Wilson Cruz maybe get a shot at playing a Terminator? Because I almost felt concern for Ash Tyler in that corridor. And that's saying something coming from me.

[00:10:38] I was like, oh, he's going to kill him and I will be happy. Like, this is one of my favorite scenes later on the confrontation in the lunchroom. But like, even just the scene in the corridor, I was like, man, Wilson Cruz has so many gears and he knows how to drive them all. Mm-hmm. Every, every time I see the shot of them in the, with the, going to the turbo left of the door closing.

[00:11:04] I just, I, I don't know why I want Ash to just be like, oh no. And the door closes. Because this is like, this is too serious. This is like, we know this is going to happen. Just like slowly flips him off as the door shuts on it. Yeah. Finger guns. Or no, he stabbed him. Yeah. He broke his neck. Yeah.

[00:11:31] But it, I mean, the, the series does continue to be visually a feast. Like this shot outside the illusory black hole. I'm just like, God, discovery looks so good. 99% of the time. And this is one of those moments where I'm like, this really does look good. I wasn't sure how I felt about the cafeteria fight scene. Maybe it's fine. It's just, it's so warm.

[00:11:57] Like it's such a warm scene with like the orange glow of that, of the, the event horizon in there. And then it becomes like, but then it's this very cold stare down and like even kind of a cold fight scene. And yeah, it's, I don't know, maybe it worked. I wasn't sure. I'm confused. I'm confused. Cameron. Well, it's because by the end of the fight, both men come to see each other in a new light. Is that what happened? And that light is, is from the sepia toned, uh, turbo lift that Colbert takes to go to there.

[00:12:25] Cause man, is that the brownest turbo lift lighting ever? And like, let me just nitpick this. Okay. The reason that the turbo lift lights are all moving in the same direction is to indicate what direction the turbo lift is going in this shot. They're just pulsing. Cause it's cool. And I'm like, they're moving different directions. They're not at the same speed. I'm like, this is not what a turbo lift is. This is just a, a, a dance floor. Like, which, you know, okay.

[00:12:53] But again, that's a pretty small nitpick overall. So yeah, we get the, the section 31 to complete three 60 turn, you know, flip of the camera. And it's, it's fun to see. It's a little heavy handed. The Georgia scheming in this episode, but it works because it's Georgia doing Georgia scheming. Like, yeah, it seems heavy handed until she's talking to five. And she's like, also, I'm really busy. So you can't ask me anything by just like, okay.

[00:13:21] So you're just telling them everybody knows you're just full of shit. Got it. Yeah. She manages to inject just enough faux emotional unavailability to like, no, no, I'm evil. Don't worry. It's like, okay. Like we, we love you. Uh, we, we, we really do. But I, you know, I'll just reiterate here. Tyler is the worst intelligence operative ever. Like he doesn't even know what a cephalopod is like, come on, man. It's right there in the name.

[00:13:50] It's a brain on legs. It's a squid. That's what it means. Like, how are you this dumb Ash Tyler? But I don't know. Maybe, maybe you didn't brief him on forms of alien life. Perhaps not. I don't have a lot written about Ash Tyler this episode. Sorry. That's all right. We have several forms of alien life. Uh, we call them our callers to open pike night. So let's go ahead and hear for the first one. Here is Abby. Hey, hey, open pike. It's Abby Summer from the first flight podcast.

[00:14:19] I am calling in about if memory serves. Now, is that the best previously on Star Trek ever? Possibly. Not truly a cold open, but the previously on and that shift from old school to new school pike was absolute perfection. I really like this one and I'm sure you guys are going to cover lots of things already. So I'm just going to leave Georgiou again. Fantastic earrings and jewelry. Absolutely love them. Covet them. Wish I could have them.

[00:14:47] And I'm going to ask you the same question that Michael asked Spock. Do you really think the beard is working? I personally like bearded Spock, but I'm curious to see knowing we have some good beard growers and beard lovers on your group over there. What do you think about bearded Spock? Yay or nay? Hope this finds you well and we'll talk soon. Well, you are Abby-solutely correct that we are beard lovers, except for Cameron, who is the king of beard envy, as we recently discovered. So Cam, let's start with you. Oh man.

[00:15:16] What do you think about Spock's beard? Well, I talked a lot about Spock's beard last episode. I mean, look, Ethan Peck looks great in that beard. I wish I looked a quarter as good as Ethan Peck looks in or out of a beard. So, I mean, the beard's working for him, but he's Spock. Get that beard off him. We know that only belongs on his face in the mirror universe. Give us our baby smooth Spock that we know and love. I'm sorry.

[00:15:45] I thought we were talking about Tupring. My only issue with Spock's beard is the jaggedness right between the sideburn and the jaw. And the jaw. He needs to clean that up. That needs to be a curated line. Yeah, you need a line there, Spock. Use a straight phaser or something. You need to just make it look cleaner. And now I fully hear people in the ether saying, well, he's in disarray and he's having an emotional breakdown.

[00:16:15] And I understand that. He is, as Kirk would say, fruity as a nut cake. I think the term is emotionally compromised. That's not what Kirk would say. You're right. That's what Spock would say. But it does bug me as a person who spends 15, 20 minutes every other day making sure that that line is a line and not an ECG readout. It does bug me to see.

[00:16:44] But it is a very small complaint. And I think Spock rocks it. I'm with Jesse there. He needs to clean it up. And it's like, I don't care if you're jumping through time. A bad shave is a bad shave. It's true as it is tomorrow as it is today while you're standing there. But he, I think the one thing that throws me off about it is it makes him look too young. It strangely doesn't age him up. It ages him down in my eyes. And so I'm like, wait, this is this Spock post cage.

[00:17:13] This is Spock who like, okay, I'm just, I'm not seeing it. To me, this is a, I just started growing a beard because I could because I'm 19 years old now kind of beard. I mean, you're absolutely right. I was definitely getting young Spock vibes. There was a point where I'm like, yeah, how old is he in this? Is he only like 20 or something? But maybe that's because he's just acting like a child this whole episode. I am not a fan of Spock this episode. Dude. He also appears as a child.

[00:17:43] Bitchy episode. He's a dick. He's bitchy. Okay. So maybe this is mere Spock. Maybe the beard does belong. No, no, no. This is TOS Spock. Okay. So two things, John, I'm really glad you brought up the age thing. Because I think they really tried. Like the reason they gave us clean shaven, smiling Spock in the recap was to contrast this Spock and say like, yeah, he looks older now because he has a beard. But I agree with you. He still looks younger. There's no way around it.

[00:18:12] It's because the actor is younger. Right. But this is actually very, very close to TOS Spock, who is arguably the sassiest character on the bridge in 90% of episodes. Like he's constantly throwing little jabs at his crewmates. He's talking about how humans are deficient in so many ways and that he feels like being around them is making him worse. Like this fits very well with TOS Spock. I'm sorry, Jesse.

[00:18:41] Did you not hear the words we used? Bitchy. Solon. This is not sassy. Sassy is making logical barbs, being smart and witty. Everything is so emotionally driven this episode. Not after they have their confrontation. They clear the air. Everybody's on the same page. Michael apologizes. Apologizes and she's like, maybe your relationship with me is a good bedrock. And he's like, yeah, that's absurd. Like there is no way that that's good.

[00:19:09] And he still is shooting barbs at her after that. And I think it's him being emotionally defensive, which we know that he often is. So, yes, for part of this episode, I agree. He's a little over emo. But by the end of it, he's locked right into TOS Spock. All right. Does he ever thank her for saving his life? Not in this episode. Well, as he says, she didn't go there. Of course, she would think that he took her there. She didn't take him there.

[00:19:38] How dare her say it that way, even though she was driving and had to figure out the whole backward speech thing. I'm sorry. I was not going to stop this episode. But he, I mean, he's not incorrect. Like she goes, okay, we can't go here. And he like pushes her out of the way. That is true. And drives to Talos. But did you guys notice that Talos IV in this is absolutely the same Canadian quarry where Culber becomes a trill in season five? Yes, it is. Yeah. It definitely is a quarry.

[00:20:08] It's even the same color. They're like, oh, blue tint. This is blue tint quarry. Okay, let's go. I think Canada just has a natural blue tint if you're in a quarry. What kind of parenting did Amanda and Sarah give their kids that the first thing they do when they see an alien plant and like a strange alien plant that's singing to them. Oh, let me touch that. I'm sure that's perfectly safe to do. Then this is Barbie. It looks like it's going to poke my finger. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:20:38] It feels like this scene was written by some of the folks who worked on Prometheus, which was a bad movie. But it is very clearly meant to parallel their reactions. You know, like they're both open to emotion, even though they've both been taught to suppress it. Like that's one of the few scenes where we see smiling Spock in the original series. Like I really liked it. I absolutely agree with the safety aspect of it.

[00:21:07] But to your point about the parenting, Cameron, like when Michael and Spock start finally talking and she just cuts him off and says, can we have a better version of this conversation? That is a beautiful piece of relational tactics. And I firmly believe that Burnham learned that from Amanda based on all the maneuvering we saw Amanda do in the last episode. That's good. It was. Well, and it's like, dude, you could use that in real life relationships.

[00:21:36] Like that is a grounded, mature question to ask somebody if you're, you know, having a disagreement with them. Like that is the kind of thing that shakes both people enough to go. All right. Yeah, let's try that. Because you're not even saying like, hey, calm down or like, hey, don't be that way. You're asking like, is there something we could collaborate on better for this? And I love that moment. I really love the whole episode.

[00:22:04] But I love that you get to see the pieces of their past. I mean, that's kind of heavy handed way to say it. But the things that make them who they are matter in this episode between these two characters. And I really, really like that. That was my one other issue with Spock's beard. Now that you brought up the flashbacks and the memories. It just, it's like, oh yeah, you got a, you had a soccer ball head when you were a kid. And this beard makes you look like you have a soccer ball head as an adult. Like just a sphere, a sphere on top of those shoulders, man.

[00:22:35] I mean, that kid. That's a round ass head. That is one circular child. Like there's no way around that. But he is the cutest Star Trek baby ever. It's so adorable that like when grown ass Michael starts berating him, I'm like, wait, whoa, whoa, what is happening here? I don't want to watch grown adult Michael be mean to this kid. And then they, you know, and then they start bringing him both. And I, they should have just left him as both the kids.

[00:23:02] Like the, it was a little too clever by half to have the adults come in there. And it just, it took me out of what should have been a good moment. I am going to disagree here as well. I think having adult Michael take the place of her younger self in this memory is a really good way to illustrate how brutal a, how brutal the conversation is and how much it hurt both of them. Right. Because she is like, I feel this way now. I think about this exchange as an adult.

[00:23:31] And that's why I feel bad about it. Because as you grow, you eventually go, wow, I did some really terrible things when I was between the ages of what five and nine. Right. Like I said things to people that I should never have said, but I was a kid and I'm able to forgive myself. I didn't understand emotional damage and, you know, social norms and things like that. But Michael, much like Spock is just unable to let go of things like that. And she needs this catharsis.

[00:23:58] Now, the other thing that I really like about it is that her insult to Spock, you weird little half breed is almost a direct callback to a TOS episode called This Side of Paradise, where everybody goes to this planet and suddenly is incredibly happy. McCoy starts calling Kirk Jimmy boy for like the entire episode. And it's because they're having mushroom spores in their brain that like make them way too happy all the time.

[00:24:28] And the way that Kirk breaks Spock out of that is he says, all right, you mutinous, disloyal, computerized half breed. So in what are little girls made of too? Exactly. Yeah. Like he uses the half breed is brought up a lot in TOS. It's a whole specific like pain point for Spock. And it's interesting to see that it's not that he's like, oh, these jerk humans. It's he's like, oh, that reminds me of when my sister said that to me and I hated that.

[00:24:57] So it's, it's, I really feel like it's a great layering of what, you know, big fans know about Spock and what new fans will come to learn about Spock. So this might be one of my biggest problems with the episode is that I just 100% disagree with you, Jesse. And I forget what episode it was where, you know, we learned that Michael did something to Spock and that's kind of what drove the wedge between them. And Amanda, it's so terrible that Amanda goes, oh my God, I'm doing this alone.

[00:25:26] Get out of my face. We've been wondering what this is for episode after episode, after episode, here it is, the big reveal. She told Spock he's like a moon. Okay. A little impy half breed or whatever. That's pretty rough, but I don't, this is how kids talk to each other. I have siblings. I hear this sort of stuff all the time. I have siblings. I also have kids who are siblings. Me and my siblings, my kids. This is normal kid stuff. It is, but it's not on Vulcan.

[00:25:56] And to hear Spock, this whole episode, just be like so grumpy towards her about this, just so sullen over the fact that she called him some names once, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. I hear where you're coming from as far as a device, but like it's incredibly hypocritical of Michael because she's a human living on Vulcan, like learning to be raised as a Vulcan. And it's like a thing that we've seen her draw strength from the entire series.

[00:26:25] And she's using it as a derogative toward him. And it's like, but she's doing it to save him. That's what being a sibling is though. I mean, that's what being a family member is. Again, not disagreeing with that, but like, are you telling me your siblings never said anything to you that actually pissed you off? Sure. I can't remember it now. Yeah. For somebody who's just been living in the future for several months, Spock sure is stuck in the past on this one. There you go. Man, you, you really,

[00:26:55] you gotta get over it. Like, yeah, you know what? People are going to say shitty things to you in your life. And sometimes there's no happy ending to that. You just got to be like, well, that was shitty and then move on with it. Like, but I feel like this is where he learns that because he's, I mean, he spends the rest of all of Star Trek being like, yeah, verbal barbs don't affect me. Like I can give it just as good as I can get it. And this, him coming out of this like time coma seems to be the moment where he's like, okay,

[00:27:25] I'm, I fully accept that I have emotions and that they can be damaging for me. So this is how I will operate going forward. It's kind of like when Christine breaks up with him via song in the bar in front of the entire crew, he's like, nope, going to double down on logic. Now can't have feelings. Now I remember again, why I can't do that. I, I really, I understand completely that it feels like it's not a big enough thing for them to have this wedge between them. But I think, I mean,

[00:27:53] my guess is that it's an attempt to build some layers to that because up until now you're kind of like, why does he consider her a sister? Is it because he was told this is your new sister and we adopted her? Or is it because as we find out, he really confided in her and felt like, Hey, if you can do this child of two worlds thing, then maybe I can too. And then she turns around and throws it in his face. I can see where it would be emotionally scarring. And knowing that Vulcans are not bereft of emotion,

[00:28:23] but actually feel emotions much more strongly than humans. I could see where this would affect him for a long time. I just read a book recently. Sure. Where a mother stopped talking to her oldest daughter after her oldest daughter confessed something to her. What she confessed is that when the three girls went through a doorway between worlds, like went into like basically a place between life and death.

[00:28:50] The oldest daughter was actually a dead girl who killed her daughters and then put their skins on her and her dead sisters. And then went back and live with the mom and parents and led the dad to commit suicide. That is an understandable reaction to confessing that to the mother. This is at the same level as that book was. Because I will say House of Hollow, that's not what I was expecting. It was kind of insane.

[00:29:18] Okay, but I'm going to say with the number of verbs, adjectives, and nouns you had to construct that sentence with, do you think that would work in a 40-minute episode of TV in a season where there are already 19 other plots happening? That's the problem because you're right. The childhood relationship is super sweet. What we get from that brief little conversation is really great. And I want to know more about that. Let's see that over the course of the season. I think if we had more flashbacks with little Michael, little Spock,

[00:29:48] then maybe that betrayal might have actually worked on an emotional level for me. The other thing you said, Jesse, that was spot on that I realized with this moment is it is kind of neat to hear Spock be like, what you did is what pushed me towards logic. I was ready to embrace my human side until you did your dirty act. And now I am who I am today. Super illogical Spock, who is to Vulcans as Worf is to Klingons.

[00:30:19] Not really into it, but this imagined idea of it is what I'm going to embrace. He's a Vulcan fetishist. Exactly. Thank you. And okay, great. We're giving the origin story for Spock for why he was the way he was in TOS. Except, oh, wait, strange new worlds. You're a hundred percent right, Jesse. He has the exact same arc because of what Christine did to him. Every time someone iterates on Spock, they feel like they have to give him the exact same arc. We see it through TOS where he slowly becomes more human.

[00:30:47] And then in the motion picture, suddenly he's like taking the Vulcan fetishist vows and slowly becomes human over the next two episodes or installments of movies and then dies. And then he has to slowly become more human again after he's resurrected. They do it in the Kelvin movies. They do it in this season of Discovery. They do it in Strange New Worlds. Like, just let the man have his single arc. Come on, people. I don't disagree with that at all. But, you know, maybe it's an every seven years thing he has an emotional breakdown. Even TNG.

[00:31:17] Suddenly he's back to being like super logical Spock again, who apparently abandoned his child with, you know, Savvy. Thank you. I was like Tupring, Tupril. I was going through like all the T names for some reason. Probably them too. Yeah, right. You never know. He's got kids scattered across the Alpha Quadrant. He learned from his dad. Let's just put it that way. I think that we get shades of 60s Spock in this episode on purpose because I legitimately feel like this episode is like a thesis statement for Strange New Worlds.

[00:31:47] Like, look, we can make this retro futuristic version of this show work and it absolutely has legs. But before we go any further, let's have a better version of this conversation by bringing in one of our listeners. We have a first time caller. This listener wrote in last time, but let's go ahead and hear from Michy. Ooh. Hi guys. This is Michy from Germany. And here are my thoughts about the episode of Memory Serves.

[00:32:14] First of all, that was one of the best previously on ever. I loved the cut from Jeffrey Hunter to Anson. It was beautifully done. I liked that they brought the Thelogians back because I have to admit I had problems with how they handled them in TOS. The transition from the cage where Pike was put in a cage and tortured to the menagerie where Pike goes, great, let's go and live there for the rest of my life, was kind of far-fetched.

[00:32:41] I mean, there is a reason the planet is forbidden, right? So I like that they put another piece in the puzzle and portray the Thelogians more friendly and supportive this time. All the you and Stamets scenes are just heartbreaking, resulting in the fight between you and Ash. I like that the rule just stood by and let it play out. And I love Pike's seriously-you-just-stood-by look. His reaction was just perfect and he handles the situation great.

[00:33:10] I also like the sibling dynamic between Spock and Michael and how adorably is little Spock. In the ending, how happy Pike was to see Spock. So cute. I really liked that episode. Looking forward to hear your take on it. Live long and prosper. Bye. Mishy, it's great to hear your voice on the Open Pike Night stage. Welcome. Thank you. And amazing English. I know you were nervous about that, but yeah. Yeah. Excellent work.

[00:33:38] You speak better English than most of the people that I work with. You got that out better than most of my notes I've been getting at tonight. Yeah. But I do-I'm so glad that you brought the confrontation up again because I still have notes about it, you guys. So, okay. I do have questions of like, why-like what version of logic is Saru using to go, no, no, no. Let's see what happens.

[00:34:04] Like, Culber really wants to kill him in this scene. And Saru's like, you know what? Sometimes you gotta let somebody kill somebody. Hey, again, he just went through Vahari. We are- That's- Yeah. Just less than a week out from him being post-Vahari. He's like, hey, this is kind of fucking cool to watch. I was watching- No, I- And I was like, I bet that's a post-Vahari Saru right there. And then Pike asks him later. I was like, aha, I'm on the same brave wave as Pike. Yeah.

[00:34:34] And he- The level of sass he gives Pike is the perfect level of sass. Because he's not like saying, like, he's not like defending himself. He's just like, hey man, one just came back from the dead. One's half-folk and half-human and not in the wharf way. So- You show me in the rule book where this is and I will gladly follow that. Yeah. I do wish that it had ended with Pike being like, so how was it? Like, how did the fight? So did he kill him? Yeah.

[00:35:03] Like, who won? I will say, like, I was like right on the edge with like, okay, yes, Bahari Saru, but would they really just stand around and watch? And that conversation with Pike right afterwards makes it work. So it's all fine. Yeah. Yeah. It totally does. And it is a great illustration that like Saru is a captain level officer. Like, he knows when to bend the rules. He knows when to let things just play out. Like, it shows that he is on equal footing with Pike, even though Saru's heels don't ever touch the ground.

[00:35:33] Yeah. But you guys know me. I love a good maneuver. I love labeling maneuvers. And based on everything we see in this episode, the Culber maneuver is unexpected tossing of various everyday items. Like, he throws the dinner that Paul made him on the floor. He throws this chair across the room. He throws the table directly at Ash's face. Like, I like the Culber maneuver. It's a convincing maneuver.

[00:36:00] And I could see where a guy could get a lot of use out of that. Yeah. But it is a moment where it felt like a reward for me. Because I've been talking the whole time about how I don't like Tyler and how this needs to come to a head. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier, where so much that gets set up in this season, finally, you know, I think the phrase you used last episode, Cameron, was the promise of the premise. Where it's like, these things have all been promised to me.

[00:36:30] And if I don't see Spock talking with his eyes open and I don't see somebody take a swing at Ash Tyler, I'm going to feel a way about this episode. And it delivered on all fronts for me. Like, I think it actually worked really well. This episode does kind of rewind a little bit on the relationship between Ash and Pike. Where in the last episode that kind of come to this understanding, this episode puts us back into, no, Pike doesn't even trust the idea of you.

[00:36:59] But I think the work that has been done is really, really good. Because even when Pike has this pile of evidence against Tyler, which is like, your command codes have been sending messages to somebody we don't know and that has not been authorized. He still offers the possibility that Ash is not responsible for what it really, really looks like he did.

[00:37:23] So I think it's a nice, subtle piece of growth from Pike and like a great illustration of where they are at in their own relationship. Oh, yeah. I think I see them coming forward since last episode. Yeah. The cold meeting in that moment where you were talking about. What I do love about that is where Saru and Pike have a little walk and talk down the hallway, openly discussing the fact that they might have a spy in their midst. Yeah. You save that conversation for like the briefing room, Saru. Yeah.

[00:37:50] The turbo lift, something anywhere besides passing multiple crew members. So my last thoughts on the fight scene, on the Ash and Culber fight. Who in maybe a season one episode while they were sitting there in the last grapple, it was a Tilly who would start chanting kiss, kiss, kiss. Or would it was Stamets even like surprising even himself?

[00:38:15] Or would it be Maul's mom who's in the background behind Ash before the fight starts with the pink hair? I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's Maul's mom back there. I'm pretty sure. Will be her like great, great, great. Unless she traveled to the future. Oh, shit. Yeah, if she was part of the crew. Yeah. I could absolutely see Stamets standing there like whispering to Saru like, this better not awaken anything in me. We just start seeing Stamets grow a beard over the next few episodes.

[00:38:45] Just like a boimler. But to your point about the walk and talk, I think it was Katie last week who was saying like, why does nobody have these conversations in private anywhere on this ship or in this season? And it, I mean, it's an absolutely fair point. Well, we've seen a lot of like them being like, okay, we can't break the rules, but we're going to break the rules. Right. Like in Pike's room and it's Pike and Michael or, you know, maybe three people at most. And this one is just like, walk with me. No, Saru, you say, I'm sorry, sir.

[00:39:14] This conversation is not to be held right here. Yeah. I think I want to make Pike and Mike's candy label with Pike and Michael. Yes. Wow. I can't believe we just got to that. Keep an eye on people. I'm going to work on that probably tonight. That's great. I also agree that I wrote almost the exact same thing. Stamets and Colbert are heartbreaking in this episode.

[00:39:43] Their scenes are really good in a very hard to watch sort of way, but it continues to 100% earn resurrecting a character from the dead. Like if he had just gone back to normal, that would have been like one of the cheapest, like laziest resurrections ever. But like this is earning it for sure. Fully agreed. You know who else earns it, Cameron? Our callers. They do indeed. And we have another one right here. Let's go ahead and hear from our good buddy, Platy.

[00:40:12] Hey, open Pike night. If memory serves, this is Platy M3 calling in with my hits, shits, and giggles. So hits. Yeah, this was definitely the best last time ever, of course, at the beginning of the episode. And I also like to watch when numbers go up. So I liked it when they scanned for CO2 in the atmosphere and it was like 4%. That's a lot. Which is something like 100 times, sorry, more than Earth goes. And that perfectly went along with the post-nuclear war and devastated world look of Talos IV.

[00:40:40] Also loved Saru's explanation to Pike about why he allowed the fight in the mess hall. Shits. They had another scene with Tilly and it was right there to call it the time squid. And again, she didn't. I was also thinking that Talosians probably should have told Michael, hey, you better sit down for this when they linked her mind to Spock. And sure enough, they didn't. And she ended up flat on the floor. So, you know, way to go, guys. Just because you stand up all the time doesn't mean everybody else needs to. And my giggles, I love the do you think the beard is working? Because I don't think it is.

[00:41:10] Also, all I could think about was how fanservice-y having Colbert just freaking beat the hell out of Tyler was. Because I don't know about everybody else, but I want to do that too. All right. This is Platty M3 signing off. Platty, you continue to bring up excellent points. And I have it on good authority that you even getting a call in this week took a Herculean effort. So thank you as always for calling. And there's a couple of things you brought up that I am really connecting with.

[00:41:40] Dude, you're right. The Talosians never sit down. I just noticed that. They're always standing up. Actually, they're always sitting and they just... They make it look like they're standing. Projecting image, I'm saying. Yeah, that's exactly what we all would do if we could. They're all fat and naked and in Lazy Boy chairs, but you never see that because they're projecting it into your mind. I could get with that. They've got the mindset. They need to look like they've got the grind set. So, yeah.

[00:42:10] There's only one part of those guys that is swole and it is above the neck. Yeah, exactly. But on that note of the Talosians, though, I love the absolutely cheesy 1960s wah-wah-wah-wah-wah sound effect whenever they do their little magic trick. Like, that is a choice that they did not have to make. And I am so happy that they did. I feel it's definitely a deliberate version of like, please, please let me make new retro 60s Star Trek.

[00:42:38] I want to make a show with Pike and his crew. There are a lot of things that point that direction here. I mean, at the end, Pike even asks Spock, like, are you smiling? Which is, like, that's the writers saying, why doesn't Spock smile anymore? And why doesn't Batman dance anymore? Like, it's really an examination of that character from a character in-universe. And I absolutely loved it.

[00:43:05] And, Platy, I'm so glad to hear that we're on the same page about Ash Tyler. Like, anytime I'm on the same page as anybody with that, I just, I feel completely vindicated. I did love Tilly's step into my office moment. That was very funny. Yes. Yeah. She is as cute as baby Spock. Like, everything that she does in this season is adorable. It's relatable. It's fun to watch. I mean, she didn't get a lot this episode, but that's what she got to work with.

[00:43:34] And she nailed it. And I guess, other than the goo rave episode, that's not relatable to me, but her personality is relatable to me. I'll take you to a goo rave one of these days. I have no doubt. Portland does all the goo raves. Yeah, Tilly doesn't get a lot this episode. Arium gets a lot of suspect shots, which, you know, for good reason. But I feel like I'm really appreciating the balance they're striking with, you know, we know.

[00:44:04] We know Arium's doing something. Like, they're not being, they're not trying to still hide that from us, even though they showed us last time that something is happening. But they aren't overdoing it with the cutaways to her when they're talking about, oh, we haven't felt like there's a, I really like the cutaway until he's talking to Tyler about, yeah, we've picked up all this debris. None of it is from the probe. And there's just a quick flash to Arium. It's like, oh, there is stuff from the probe.

[00:44:33] She's just covering it up. She's just miscategorizing it as it goes. Like, I feel like they're doing the right amount of just showing us like, oh, this is Arium. This is Arium. This is, you know, and everybody suspects Tyler. I would agree with that. One thing I've noticed with this watch through is, you know, Jesse, you said that this is appreciated more as a binging episode, a series season. And I would agree with that.

[00:44:59] I'd also think that this is much better on a second watch through than a first. Because one thing I'm picking up on this time through is I remember having no, just not following the control thing at all the first time watching this. Because they drop in like a word about the control here and there every episode, every other episode. I don't know if they've actually said that it's AI yet this season. They've kind of implied it. They kind of implied it this episode. But I wouldn't have been paying attention to that part.

[00:45:25] And I remember kind of it being like an episode two, maybe three episodes before the end when it's suddenly like, oh, by the way, here's your villain for the season. Is this AI control? And so, yeah, I'm just appreciating it a lot more of this watch through being like, oh, yeah, they did talk about it. They did bring it up. They did plant the seeds. They just did it very subtly and had us paying attention to a whole lot of other things in the meantime. Tiny breadcrumbs. Tiny breadcrumbs. Yeah.

[00:45:50] Well, and this, and I think to your point, and this might be the first episode where somebody directly explains it. Like, well, I wouldn't say directly explain it, but I know what you're saying. Like, yeah, George. I mean, George says, you know where I'm from? We give the AI commands, not the other way around. But no one says, like, I am talking about control right now. You kind of have to imply that she's referring to the conversation from the last scene.

[00:46:15] Right, because in that, like, confab with the admirals or whatever, they mention control and its threat assessment. But you're right. It is much more subtle, which is almost impressive considering how, like, over the top everything in this show is. Like, the emotions, the visuals, the fan service, which I'm completely here for. I've talked about it before. I've seen Star Trek do fan service incorrectly, and I've seen Star Trek do fan service correctly. And I think this is a great example of them doing it correctly.

[00:46:43] And, you know, that 60s feel is, like, all through this episode. Like, when Spock says, how is it that I can remember tomorrow? Like, that's straight out of 1960s sci-fi prose, right? And he delivers it like he's reading a book. And it's just really well done because that's something that has been missing from some of the newer Star Trek. You know, for various reasons. Sometimes it's because newer Star Trek is a comedy.

[00:47:11] And sometimes it's because newer Star Trek is about one character for three years. And it's, I'm not going to say anymore because I don't want to spoil anything. But it is also just filled with, like, parallels to other Star Trek scenes that we love. Like, I mean, John, Spock in the mental institution, like, immediately recalls memories of a couple very specific DS9 episodes that Cameron has not seen yet. Exactly.

[00:47:38] And it's just, like, they're doing this very careful dance. And I think they're absolutely nailing the steps. I do love that moment where it's just, like, Spock, fruitier than a nutcake, in the mouth of madness moment, drawing all over the floor and walls of his padded cell. And they come in and he's like, oh, you mean I'm not crazy? Great. I'll see myself out. Thank you very much. See ya.

[00:48:06] And the indictment of Michael where she's like, are you sure you didn't kill anyone? He's like, you just watched what happened. Are you serious? Like, come on. What is your problem? And that was a point where, too, because she didn't say that. She was like, so what happened next? Because everyone thinks you killed these people. And he's like, what, you don't believe me? God, my sister's so mean to me. My sister, Michael. I mean, to his credit, she is. I don't know. I don't know. I get it.

[00:48:33] He's like, you're literally in my mind and you still are, like, questioning what happened. Well, she can't see what he did right after that. Which also, like, the Talosians, so they can see into their minds to know that they had a big fight with their kids, but they can't see what it was. That was a little confusing. I guess they had to have the person relive it in their mind for them to truly savor the juices of the memory. That's what I took it as, is they're, like, emotional vampires. Like, we can create any visuals that we want. We can pull the information, but.

[00:49:03] We'd love to see, like, we'd love to feel what you were feeling because that, like, there's four of us. But it was just weird because they just bring that up. Like, no one told them that. They weren't thinking about it. I mean, I guess they were probably thinking about it because they're next to each other, but I don't know. Right. I don't know. It came out of nowhere. I mean, it's like, you know, yeah, you can have the vanilla soft serve or the chocolate, but come on. The swirls. The swirls. Like, yeah. Who doesn't order the swirl when it's an option?

[00:49:28] Speaking of leaving breadcrumbs, there is the moment where we're in Spock's memory and it's him mind melding with the red angel. And suddenly Michael finishes the sentence and you're like, oh, well, geez, they're just telling us the end right there. Yeah. But I didn't pick up on it. Nope. Never. It's like, oh, that was. We'll actually get to the red herring, red angel, the red herring angel. Uh, it's, it's, that's actually done pretty well. If I remember correctly.

[00:49:53] I do want to talk about, uh, let's just get to the other big reveal that I had a problem with this episode. And speaking of, um, sixties retro vibes, maybe this is something they could have and should have updated is when Vina reveals to Michael what's wrong with her, why she couldn't, uh, live a normal life. And she slowly lifts her head up into the lens flare in the shadow. And you can't see shit. And what you can't see is like anything. Okay. So you're a little more skin taggy than normal. I don't know.

[00:50:22] This doesn't look terrible. And like, Michael's just looking at gas, like, oh my God. It's like, if he, exactly. Like, where's the vomit? Where's it? It was. So that was another, I just, I just didn't buy it. Like they overplayed their hand. I think. Like this Vina definitely has Gerard Butler Phantom of the Opera syndrome where it's like, that's what you're covering up. That's why you think nobody could love you. Cause you have a large vein on one side of your face. Like, come on, man. This needs to be a horror show under that mask.

[00:50:52] Like, and I, I don't disagree with that. And I think even in the cage, she's a little more beat up and you're like, oh, wow. Hunchbacked in the cage too. Yeah. They kind of tried to apply that here, but again, it's so dark. And the lens flares are all over this. This is the one part where I was like, there's a lens flare literally over the thing she's trying to inform the audience about right now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's the makeup effect was too subtle. Yeah. Like there's, there's no two ways about that. It was just not enough. You know what wasn't subtle?

[00:51:23] What in the Vulcan Zerg was that chasing baby Michael? There's Zerg, Zerglings on Vulcan. The Vulcan Zergling that sounds like every dinosaur from Jurassic Park. Yeah. They definitely had the T-Rex roar and the raptor like snarl going on in that same alien. But here's, I'm really glad you brought that up Cameron, because as we mentioned before, the best Star Trek makes you want to watch more Star Trek.

[00:51:51] And if you guys have any time tonight, specifically John and Cameron, if you have some time tonight, there's a 22 minute episode of Star Trek, the animated series that I highly recommend you check out. It's called Yesteryear. And it shows you that this, or maybe that, depending on the chronology, is not Spock's first encounter with his own childhood via questionably motivated time travel.

[00:52:15] And it actually kind of works with what we see here too, because it shows you that he and Michael actually have parallel experiences in the wilderness of Vulcan as children. Do you see that alien? Did they pull that alien from the animated episode? I cannot remember. I don't think they pull that specific alien, but it's a very similar construction. It's like, seriously, just if you have some time tonight, watch it. It's a quick watch.

[00:52:44] It is probably the best episode of the animated series, maybe top two or three, but it is widely regarded as one of the best. Cool. Very cool. Well, I do know what we have time for tonight, and that is our final caller. Let's go ahead and hear from our good friend, Melanie. Hi, guys. Here's Melanie. Oh, Talos 4.

[00:53:08] I think it's so cool that I used real footage of the old episode for this, and to make us believe that it's the same Pike. Trust us. To accept that Jeffrey Hunter's Pike and Anson Noun's Pike are the same, I could go on about the differences, but I don't think I have enough time for that. So, watching it again. It is a Pike episode, with the captain finally more at home on Discovery, and we see how much the events on Talos 4 have changed him and left an impression on him.

[00:53:34] He doesn't like the idea that a part of him stayed there for Wiener, and no, I am not gonna talk about what happens in the menagerie. Or Pike's future. I am not ready for that. Not now that Pike has become my favorite captain. Another part of the episode deals with you and Paul, and isn't Paul a wee soul? He doesn't understand why you is so angry with him. When we see the mind model between Michael and Spock, I like how they change between their adult and kid versions, and a small Spock.

[00:54:03] Isn't he really and absolutely cute? And he turns into our hot Spock? Wow. I also like how Disco gets them back from Leland in the end. Even though everyone thought Section 31 got them first, wow. There were so many more parts of the episode I liked. Like the fight scene between Ash and you and Saru watching, and Pike's reaction to it. Just wonderfully polite. And, and, and. But I'll leave it to others to talk about the rest. Live long and prosper. Hi, Melanie.

[00:54:32] It's me, others. I'm so glad that you brought up Leland. Because I know that I already mentioned that Ash is a terrible intelligence operative. But Leland is so dumb. Like he's the dumbest. Yeah, he's bad. He's bad at this. The worst intelligence operative ever. And now that I think about it, maybe the Section 31 movie accurately portrayed the kind of people that Section 31 hires. Because, I mean, come on.

[00:55:01] They're all idiots except for George O. I have been thinking about that movie an outsized amount more than I should. I'm like, it's really, I mean, like Section 31 itself should be insulted by this movie. And I'm like, but should they? Thinking about all their different iterations. Like, was there like one competent Section 31 agent ever? Is that it? George O. Well, and. Yeah, I was going to say there's a guy in DS9.

[00:55:29] There's a guy in DS9 who's like, yeah, who, who basically gave it its, its weight. Right. So. Yeah, he was the first. Yeah. Who was it? Arium who, who contacted them and let them know where they were going? But she was, she, cause she was the one sending out the subspace signals, right? Yeah. Yeah. What would be her purpose for that doing so? She, she's. Because. Because she got the virus from control. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:55] But what, but what does she know right now? Like we know that. She's not aware. Right. Well, so what does control know? What does the control that's in her head that came from the squid, the time squid? No. Like. That they're going to tell us for. Yeah. It knows that it needs Spock and Michael. It does know that it needs Spock and Michael specifically. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. For reasons we'll find out. Well, cause the red angel suit is a control thing, right? Or.

[00:56:25] It's something they capture or section 31 thing. It's something they captured at one point. I believe the suit was used to get away from control. Ah. But. Okay. But Zora, is there, is there, is the computer's name Zora yet? No. Or is it still just the sphere data? That's the end of the season, I think. Okay. So the sphere data has information in it on all of this stuff. And the discovery computer has information in it from Starfleet.

[00:56:54] We eventually find that Michael's mother was building the suit at the behest of Starfleet when all the stuff went down and then she used it to get away. Okay. So my, I believe what we are meant to eventually understand and has not actually been illustrated thus far in the show, to your point, Cameron, is that control sees the red angel as a threat and it knows that that's the only thing that can prevent it from achieving its goals. I think it's going to be able to do section 31 to have Spock. Yeah. Right. Okay. All right. I mean, yeah.

[00:57:24] There's leverage if nothing else. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, I think the, I mean, if there's anything heavy handed about the subtlety that they use with Arium, it's the glowing red eyes. I'm like, no, she's bad now. Yeah. She's not aware of what she's doing. And I think we actually ended up finding that out in an episode or two where it's like, she had no idea that the machine parts of her were being used for this nefarious purpose. Yeah.

[00:57:52] Again, something the section 31 movie did. I'm glad that Melanie brought up Vena and Pike, which we haven't really talked about yet. Yeah. The performances there are really good. It's amount is amazing in those scenes. They don't get a lot together, but there's a lot of weight there. Of course it was the sixties. So they fell in love in one episode. He wasn't there that long and had a very tumultuous relationship with her, but apparently it hung around in his heart, but I bought that from him. He conveyed that in this episode.

[00:58:21] And I mean, that is, you know, I love the previously on, I love the connection with the Talosians and I thought that they kind of capped off that relationship really well with that episode. I like all that with this. Yeah. And I also, I like that. We learned that Vena pulled a, uh, she's Liam's Leah Bromzing, uh, Pike down on the planet. That's what's going on. Well, uh, well, I mean. The Talosians. Talosians. The Talosians. Leah Bromzed. Tomato, tomato. For her. I will say. But to your point, what happened to the illusory Pike?

[00:58:50] Like, he was there with her at the end of the cage and they're like, don't worry, you can hang out with him forever. But we never see the illusion Pike in this. Oh, I see. Down in the cave somewhere waiting for her knitting, making, making pasta mama. Making food. Yeah. Making food because his memory serves her dinner every night. Of all the episodes we've talked about, this episode name, I'm like, there are like 10 if memory serves applications in this episode. I'm like, you know what?

[00:59:18] But I think this is the best hands down title for a disco episode we've heard in a long time. So. Yeah. I like it. I mean, because Michael and Spock's memories serve the Talosians. It's just, if memory serves is all over the place. Arium. Her memory is not serving. Like, there is the Hugh and the Colburn Ash fight. Like, yeah, it is. Colburn Stamets. If memory serves. If memory serves. If memory serves is everywhere in this episode.

[00:59:47] Colburn walks into that cafeteria and absolutely serves Ash with his memory. That's a really good point that I hadn't considered. The other TNG reference I made is, you know, we just finished up all good things over on Green Shirt. And it sounds like Spock is struggling with that, you know, that enlightenment that Q was talking about, being able to understand paradoxes and live within multiple time periods at the same time.

[01:00:16] Uh, he's, he's not doing it as well as Picard did for a split second, apparently, and all good things. It's just, yeah. And I, well, I, the only argument I would make against that is that once Spock is told, so there's a, we think there's a time paradox going on. He's like, oh, okay, cool. Well then I'm going to go pursue that avenue of research and figure out what we need to do next. Because he's clearly struggling with why do I remember tomorrow? And then they come in and they're like, oh, because time travel. And he's like, oh, cool. Thanks for letting me know. That makes great sense.

[01:00:46] But this whole episode is about him, the, the, the act of living in those multiple timelines is about to kill him. Right. And he has to be cured of that. Well, Cameron, I'm sure you understand that inverse tachyons affects a person's temporal lobe in very specific ways. I'm just saying, Picard is a much better time surfer than Spock. Yeah. Well, Picard had the help of a God being and Spock does not. His bitchy older sister, apparently. Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:14] And he apparently kept it together long enough to get off of whatever planet he was on when he mind melded with the Red Angel. Because he was just in an EVA suit when he started being disconnected from time. Yeah. Still managed to get back to wherever he was going. That's true. Like, that's, that's, that's pretty good. But I do like what you were saying about Veena, because it, like, as I was asking about the illusory Pike, I realized we don't need him in this episode because she doesn't need him.

[01:01:41] She knows that he's close by and that's what she wants. That's why she's like, yeah, yeah, Spock, fate of the universe. What about Pike? So to have her be like that connection between them, you know, a memory being served up, if you will, by the Tullosians is a gorgeous little piece of writing. Like, to give Pike some emotional investment in this episode. Because if you're not, if you haven't seen Pike anywhere else except Discovery Season 2,

[01:02:09] you don't know anything about his past other than that he's from the Enterprise. And here you get, like, some reasons to, to care along with him. And it's, it really does work. Like, yeah, dude, if Veena showed up in your room wearing the cool retro 60s sparkle dress and was like, oh my god, I missed you, you'd be like, I admit that I have missed you too. Like, I've been doing my best to function at a high level as a captain here. But like, yeah, this is, this is something I think about.

[01:02:39] And for the episode to kind of force Pike to give her up to get Spock back is just great. Like, all these characters have been through emotional trauma. A lot of it has to do with time travel or, you know, universal travel for these characters. But it works for all of them, in my opinion. I really, really love how many parallels there are between characters, not only in this specific series,

[01:03:07] but in Star Trek as a whole. Like, I mean, Michael basically walks Pike's steps when she gets to Talos. And it's, you know, and then she has a lot of the same experiences. And it's like, there's so many layers in this episode. And I feel like they really did execute on a lot of them. And it brings me to what might be my favorite Discovery joke. Like, I loved, yeah, do you really think the beard is working? But say goodbye, Spock? And having Spock give the Vulcan salute and say goodbye, Spock?

[01:03:37] Like, come on, that's grade A stuff right there. Like, that's how you know Leland is dumb. He didn't see that punchline coming. So are we thinking that that's just the Talosians making that illusion? Or are Michael and Spock on the shuttle flying up to Discovery having to, like, stand there? Or, because they can, are they being shown? And is that actually them saying that? Or are the Talosians just really good at a parting punchline? That would 100% be the Talosians.

[01:04:04] And that tells us that Vina's dad was full of dad jokes. 100%. Because that's all they know about human humor is from Vina. And there's short time with Pike. Yeah. And I think, I mean, we know visually right away that that's not Spock and Michael. Right? Because they're not moving. Actually, we know that Pike loves dad jokes. So they could have pulled it from Pike's mind when they had him down in the cage. That sounds like something Pike would say. That's what they, that's what Pike and Vina did when they were having their picnic in the cage.

[01:04:34] He was like, he was like, orange, you glad I didn't say banana? And she's like, oh my God. But you know what? He's the only guy on the planet. Whatever. It's fine. Like, I'm sure our wives have all at some point gone, whatever. He's the only guy on the planet. It's fine. Like, it's a relatable thing. So, you know, I think this, like Jesse was mentioning, this serves as a really nice bridge between the cage and the menagerie. And I know they're kind of the same episode, but like from the beginning and the end of this story.

[01:05:04] So does that make this like the livestock truck or the cat carrier? Like, how do you get an animal from a cage to a menagerie? Like, what would this middle episode be? Like that big truck they had to save Willy on in Free Willy. Oh, yeah. Or the raptor cage from the opening of Jurassic Park. Yes. I thought the same thing, Cameron. And then I immediately thought, no, you use a transparent aluminum tank that you've retrofitted into a stolen bird of prey. It's like clicking on bird of prey. That's how you get. Oh, man. That's how Free Willy should have ended.

[01:05:33] Just transported midair. Like, ah. Kids standing there like, where'd he go? The strangest movie crossover ever. Well, that's a great point, John. Because I was wondering, because yeah, this does tie in a lot with the menagerie. And the difference with the menagerie is it's all about how Spock uses the Talosians to solve this problem of his. Here we learn, oh, I've got a problem. Take me to the Talosia. Talosia. That's not the name of the planet. Like, take me there. That'll solve my problem.

[01:06:03] Like, what problems from TOS or the movies could he have solved by just going to Talos 4? Or, like, it seems like this is just in his back pocket all the time whenever something comes up. Well, I mean, the menagerie specifically answers that. He solves the problem of Pike living in a chair. Yeah. Like, by taking him there. And it's... Right. I mean, that's his thing. And it almost costs him his career. But that happened to not close to him from there on. Right? Like, he's done it twice. What else could he... I think Talos is still forbidden.

[01:06:32] Well, that hasn't stopped him twice now. Yeah. Jesse, you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not disagreeing. It's the rules of three. He's got to do it again sometime. And that's how he gets kicked out of Starfleet. Like, look, man, we told you twice. We court-martialed you once. Like, come on. Yes, you saved the universe a couple times. But, like, whatever. You have to stop breaking the rules. Yeah. They should have taken him to Talos 4 instead of fucking Vulcan at the end to search for Spock. Oh, totally. That could have...

[01:07:01] They could have got his mind back in his body. Maybe. I don't know. They're like, which body do you want? Do you want the beard, Spock? Do you want the Leonard Knee Boy Spock? We keep a copy of every Spock that shows up here. So which one do you want? We actually got a pirated copy of the Zachary Quinto Spock on a disc here. If you feel that's the way to go. We have this weird Hungarian version of Star Trek called Star Wreck. It's got some big hairy guy. I don't know. They call him Spark. But, you know, we know what he's really supposed to be.

[01:07:31] We've got his brother Spocko played by... Spocko. That's my favorite name. Who's that SNL cast member? I can't remember who played him. Oh, yeah. Now that's a Star Trek. It might have been Horatio Sands. Probably. But yeah, I mean, I'm here for Spocko. No, no, no, no. It's a very good end to the episode. I am definitely... I'm guessing it's the next episode that finally won me over because I am hooked at the end of this.

[01:07:59] I love Detmer interrupting Pike's about-to-be-rousing captain speech. He's like, no, dude, you don't need to this time. We're on board. We're all good. And yeah, I'm hooked. Let's see Disco on the run. I'm there for it. Yeah. Our crews are best when they're on their own. I mean, it really is like, yeah, cut off all our support and that's when they get this chance to shine. Two questions. Nerdy Star Trek questions. Were they transporting at warp?

[01:08:30] We see the Discovery in the Section 31 ship at warp and they start talking about getting transporter locks. Did they come out? They'd already... They popped out of warp just before that. Yeah, they're in orbit when that happens. I don't think we see that. Did they say that? Discovery slams on the brakes in orbit. I was like, God. Okay. I don't care how good your inertial dampers are. You just got thrown across the damn room with that sort of a stop job. Yeah. How quick the Section 31 ship leaves, it's like fired out of a rifle. Yeah.

[01:09:00] It feels like they're going to warp much quicker than other people go to warp, but I don't. You know, it's science. Did they tell us that Section 31 was using Terran technology on Spock? Because that gets name dropped here. And I was like, oh. I think Georgiou mentioned it in the last episode. She did. Okay. Didn't she like, oh, by the way, I know what this is because I invented it. Did she give it to him? I mean, she doesn't... I don't think she says that. But no, I think that they just have access to some stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:28] They probably immediately went to like Lorca's locker at Starfleet and were like, let's just get whatever. And he didn't have a big room. Just Terran stuff spilling out like tribbles. I mean, he had a room full of weapons. So it's believable that when they were cleaning that out, they were like, let's hold on to this. Yeah. But just he kind of traded places in the mirror to our universe, right? Like, he didn't come over in a ship full of stuff, did he?

[01:09:56] Well, I mean, you generally need a ship to get through that ion storm, but... Well, it was Transcorsers and TOS. And I thought it was... Through an ion storm. It was... I don't know if they ever fully explained how he got here anyway. It was during a battle, though, so I assume there was like some explosion and they just switched places, but... Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yesterday's Enterprise style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it felt like. Oh, man. Well, you guys got any final thoughts for if memory serves?

[01:10:26] There's a great moment at the beginning where Spock looks just as tired of Michael's Alice in Wonderland references as I am. Oh, man. That shoehorned... Yeah, we're really through the looking glass now. Speaking of DS9. That's right. Yeah. Mirror universe episodes. Yep. He's like, no, we will get killed if anybody finds out we came here. And we have to get here through a black hole. Chill with your child story. Or he goes, Michael, did you read any other books? You're right.

[01:10:55] That's what it feels like. Like, how to not be a mutineer. Just, you know, just really driving the knife in. Phew. See, Spot, run now. Right, Spock? This is my personal green eggs and ham. The hat is on the other cat now. Write in with your literary references for children that you think Michael would have made here.

[01:11:27] All right. Well, with each episode of Disco Inferno, of course, we do have to pick a song that we each feel represents this episode the best. Who would like to start tonight? Let's have Cameron go. I went first last. All right. Well, immediately I thought, my boyfriend's back. I mean, it applies to Vena. It applies to Stamets. And there is going to be trouble. And there's going to be trouble. But one, it's not, I mean, it's a fine song.

[01:11:56] It's a classic 50s song. But it's not, I don't want to put that on my playlist. And looking at the lyrics, I'm like, oh, it's all about the current guy is going to get in trouble. And so it doesn't really fit. But so what I'm going with, and maybe it's because I just saw this band in concert last night. So it might have been on my mind. But Guster's satellite. Oh, good choice. You're my satellite. You're riding with me tonight. So it's, I mean, it's got a lot of space imagery.

[01:12:22] It's about, you know, this person who is your, your, you know, your, your Mzadi elevator to the moon. Michael's trying to make this elevator between her and Spock, who is like a moon, distant like a moon. That, that harsh phrase that we all are familiar with. And then there, of course, you know, it's, it sounds like the love song, but near the end it goes, maybe you will always be just a little out of reach again with Vina, just not being

[01:12:49] able to reach the real Pike because at the end she learns that like the real Pike's a little better than the hollow Pike. And then of course, Stamets, he's the love of his life is back. He's right there and he's fucking moving out of their house together. Like God, it's so heartbreaking for Stamets. So, uh, Guster's satellite. Good choice. Cameron's memory did serve him in this instance. I forgot I had to pick this for this episode, but I thought of the perfect one while we've

[01:13:18] been having this discussion. Uh, as, as we know, I usually go more mainstream than either of you guys, and I'm going to definitely stick with that trend tonight. Um, I'm going to go with, you know, a song that really talks about memory, about losing your mind, about being crazy. So I'm going with crazy by Gnarls Barkley, you know, with lyrics like, uh, even your emotions have an echo in so much space.

[01:13:46] Chris Pike's emotion, you know, like the emotions between Spock, Christopher Pike is an echo apparently on, uh, Talos 4. And then even section 31, you know, um, who do you think you are? Bless your soul. You really think you're in control? Actually, no. Control is in you. As we find out in this season. So yeah, I'm going to go with, uh, crazy by Gnarls Barkley. And I actually really enjoy that song. Always have. Yeah. That's a very good pick. I like that a lot.

[01:14:16] Yeah. So this week I, I tried to go a little deeper into the lyrics and find lyrics that really match kind of the emotional state of the characters in this episode. Um, this song has, you know, talks a lot about the person that you used to be and what it takes to become the person that you want to be or that you're meant to be. Um, and it's, I just think it fits so many of the relationships here, like Pike and Spock having their fight.

[01:14:43] And then, you know, at least Michael realizing this is maybe some of the bedrock of who I am and Pike realizing like to get Spock back, he's going to have to give Veena up. So with lyrics, like don't let them in, don't let them see, conceal, don't feel, don't let them know. And it's funny how some distance makes everything seem small and the fears that once controlled me can't get to me at all. Yes. What is this? I have chosen. What is it? It's on the show.

[01:15:13] Let it go from frozen. Oh, cool. I can't believe it's taking me so long. But in keeping with my stylistic choices, I am giving you the Peyton Parish hard rock cover of let it go from frozen, which has wailing guitars, powerful synths, and just hammer fisted lyrics all the way through.

[01:15:38] It's a great rendition of let it go, which let's be real is a very good song. Like that's all there is to that. I can, I can do that as a hard rock. So it, I, and you're going to hear it behind me here in the episode. Like this is, I have been waiting all season to fit a hard rock version of let it go into an episode of discovery. And this is the one that does it. Nice. Excellent choice.

[01:16:08] Good. Solid picks this week, man. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you to our callers. Thank you to our returning and our new callers. Thank you to our generous patrons who helped make this possible, uh, ad free. Been listening to a lot of extra new podcasts as part of the greatest generation pod crawl recently. And I was like, man, I understand that advertising has to be a part of, uh, podcasting, but I am glad we don't have ads in our podcast.

[01:16:35] And that is definitely thanks in huge part to our generous patrons. Please consider joining at the $2 a month level. It, every little bit helps, uh, cover our hosting and just keeps us ad free. Uh, Jesse, if folks want to call in, how can they do that? The easiest way for folks to get in touch with us, of course, is to just go to openpike.com. You'll see a little tab that lets you record your message or you can type it in and send it.

[01:17:02] And I, I, I just have to say, John, I completely agree with you about the ad free thing, but you did also mention the Star Trek pod crawl, which of course was to raise money for the national center for science education. We recently heard back from the guys at greatest generation. Yeah. The pod crawl raised over $17,000 for this charitable organization that fights to keep science in education.

[01:17:27] So I want to personally thank on behalf of open pike night, not only the greatest generation for allowing us to come with on this ride, but every single one of you out there who downloaded and listened to our coverage of the search for Spock featuring Robin Curtis, because I mean, if there was ever a time to fight for the causes that you believe in, this is that time. So thank you so much for helping us have some impact in the real world. If you'd like to have a personal impact on us specifically, as John was mentioning, you

[01:17:57] can go to patrion.com slash open pike and sign up there for as little as $2 a month. And if you want to just talk Star Trek memes and funny gifts and, you know, be nerdy with me on the internet, go to blue sky and follow us there at open pike. And Cameron. Yo. You have reached a momentous milestone off of open pike night. Uh, tell everybody what's going on. I finished my seven year journey of watching the next generation for the very first time.

[01:18:27] It's been a long road, but here we are. I am a green shirt no longer, but you can listen to all 176 plus back episodes of us over on green shirt and new beast track through the next generation or green shirt podcast, wherever you do your social medias. And, uh, you can hear us, uh, watch myself, John and many of our other hosts and guests. Jesse popped up quite a few times to discuss TNG episodes and it's been a lot of fun.

[01:18:56] Uh, we just dropped all good things. Next up, you're going to hear our collaborative ranking episode where five of us try to make the ultimate TNG top 25 episode list. I don't think it's going to please anybody, but I don't think it's going to please anybody at all. It's going to, if you have not listened to green shirt, listen to this episode. If you love TNG and you will hate us, there are some episodes on there that should not be anywhere near top 25. And maybe I even played one of them.

[01:19:25] So, you know, mea culpa, but, uh, uh, yeah, come check us out there. And, you know, John had mentioned the patron. If you missed out on our section 31 review, we had blasted it out to the public for a week, but if you missed out on that, you can still find it on the patron feed. Just $2 a month. We'll get you access to that good time as well. Now, as the world's biggest green shirt fan, I have to ask what's next after the collaborative rank. Are you jumping right into the movies?

[01:19:54] Are you doing Picard? What's happening? We're getting into the movies real soon. We're going to do like a big retrospective episode. Then we're doing the movies because if we just keep making the podcast, we're going to drop a first contact right around first contact day. So that'll be very exciting. Uh, then we will probably take a break for the summer for the better part of the summer and then come back with, uh, Picard's one through three. I am really excited to hear Cameron's, um, reaction to first contact and then a break

[01:20:24] and then his reaction to insurrection. I think that's going to be very entertaining to listen to for folks. I mean, this, it's not going to be a break. There's only those will be back to back ish, but yeah, we'll do all the movies. And then we'll take a little breather. Oh, you'll do all the movies. The nemesis sucks. And I can't wait to hear what you think about it. You know, nemesis and insurrection. I both are the names of the movies. I've seen them both in theaters once each. Uh, I couldn't tell you. I know Tom Hardy's in one of them. I don't know which one's, which there's like a duck blinded one and Tom Hardy.

[01:20:54] And I think Picard rams the enterprise into something at one point and data dies. That's what I know. And I don't know which of those movies. I don't know if those thoughts are spread between the two movies. I don't know. It's going to be exciting. It's going to be fun. Yeah. Data's always dying. I mean, come on. He's always dying. I know. Yeah. Resurrection like crazy with data. Anyway, thank you all very much for listening. Yeah. We, uh, we thought we had a mess and back to go clean up, but it just faded out as, uh, we went into warp. So I think we're all good.

[01:21:23] So be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here. Guys. I love the little cleanup robots. The Roomba robots after the fight scene. They were adorable. You don't have to clean up after yourself. The Roomba robots will get it. Yep. Yep. You could have gone with, be sure to tip your memory servers. It was. Ah, damn it. It was. It was. It was.