Disco Inferno 9 - "Project Daedalus"

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds podcast where your personal logs are the prime directive. I'm your host, John T. Boulds, here tonight with our amazing guests and our wonderful callers on stage to help us discuss Episode 9 of our coverage of Discovery Season 2, a little something we like to call Disco Inferno.

[00:00:45] We'll of course be discussing Project Daedalus tonight, but first let me introduce my co-host, the man who we all know was the inspiration for the chess scene in this episode. No matter how many times we tell him that clumsy metaphor can't solve every problem, Jesse Bailey. I'm just like a raccoon with a boot on his tail, John. But what if it's a game, Jesse? What if it's a game?

[00:01:12] I'm just a raccoon playing go, John. And the man who can't even count the number of times he's been just trying to help out and stumbled into a minefield. Host of Green Shirt and Newbies Trek The Next Generation, Cameron Harrison. I love that we literally see Spock's brain in this episode and spoiler alert, I wish we were talking about that episode.

[00:01:38] And tonight we have a fantastic guest on stage, a comic artist with his pulse on the pop culture jugular. Whether he's spending time with the heroes in a half shell in the sewers or exploring the final frontier of the galaxy, please welcome Vernon Smith to Open Pike Night. Brain and brain? What is brain? Spock's craying. There's something like that. Oh, man. I would watch that so much. I don't know what that is, but sure.

[00:02:07] I'm so close to doing a craying impression. When I did do a Turtles cover, that was a Halloween issue. I had one of the Turtles originally dressed as Spock, and he's holding like a craying bucket, but they wouldn't. I had to change his outfit. Well, now it can exist in my head. Thank you. Yes.

[00:02:27] Well, Vernon, you are a previous cutler to Open Pike Night, and once we made a connection with you, we decided, hey, let's see if we can get him on for a full episode. So why don't you go ahead and fill us in a little bit on your history with Star Trek? Oh, well, my history with Star Trek is literally lifelong. I had motion picture toys as a toddler. I saw Rathacon in the theater, which was what really got me into Star Trek.

[00:02:56] And right around the same time, they started doing original series reruns on TV, so I got into it that way. And yeah, my parents were into Trek, and even when my mom got remarried and my stepdad, we watched Next Gen when it premiered, and it's just always been a part of my life. And yeah, being able to draw Star Trek comics now, it's a dream come true.

[00:03:24] And I've lived Trek life my whole life, and so yeah, this is just kind of the next evolution. Sophie's Choice, who's your favorite character to draw? To draw? Hmm. God. That's like asking me which series is my favorite, or is that going to be the next question? I won't do that to you. Just one hard question on the episode.

[00:03:52] La'an was really fun to draw, like doing the Stranger Worlds story. Like, yeah, she was super cool, fun to draw. But you know what? I do have a favorite character, and it's going to be a bit of a butt-kissing answer, because I snuck my daughter into a page in the background in the Starfleet uniform. Nice. There we go. That's my favorite character. Well played. Both on the answer and sneaking her into the comic.

[00:04:20] But yeah, La'an was super cool to draw, and drawing the lower deck stuff is like, you know, I mean, I haven't done that officially yet, but like, haven't done like prints of it and stuff. It's been like, yeah. So we're not going to ask you what your favorite series is, but we do talk about- Animated. Animated? Yes. Yes!

[00:04:37] We do talk about our home Trek, the Trek that for us is like, if I need to go back and watch one Star Trek, like, what is your- you most feel at home in the series, Star Trek series? I guess that would be original series, just since like, that's what I watched as like a little kid. You know what I mean?

[00:05:00] Next Gen's like, you know, the big one that really kind of changed the landscape, but as like a kid, that was one that like, I really went to a lot. Like, if I fell down and like skin my knee or something, and I'd be like, and I'd be like, Kirk gets his chest cut open and, you know, his shirt cut open. He doesn't sit there sniveling and cry about it. Like, walk it off. Or like, you know, if I'm getting too emotional, it was like, what would Spock do?

[00:05:27] Like, just those were like core characters that define me when I'm like in second grade. Boy, well, you picked a hell of an episode to come on to talk about Spock getting emotional. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, what? Is Spock in this episode? I didn't see Spock in this episode. No, this is Discovery. Oh, quit it. Oh, I'm not going to quit it anytime soon. We got time, baby. Well, let's dive right into it.

[00:05:56] When I found out it was going to be this one, I was like, oh God, this is because like, I've actually been rewatching Discovery and it was like right around this time. And so I was like, oh, Daedalus sets the Arium one. And then after watching this one for this show, I stayed up till like two in the morning last night finishing the season. Nice. Nice. One of the best season finales Discovery ever had, if not the best in my opinion. Yeah. I do remember liking the finale.

[00:06:25] I remember by the end of the season kind of enjoying the last couple episodes. And I thought this was going to be the turn because I liked the end of the last episode so much. They're like, we are going to be fugitives. We're on the run. Spock's like, my suggestion as a recent fugitive is we run, sir. That's great. That's compelling. I was into it. I'm like, yes, I bet this is where the turn happened. This is not where the turn happened. Guys, this is where Discovery broke me. I don't understand. But I won't get into it too much.

[00:06:53] But just with the idea of that ending from the last episode, they're on the run. And this episode, the very first thing they do is meet with a Starfleet Admiral and then go directly to the people they're running from. Hey, hey. I don't know what's happening, guys. I don't understand what's happening. She's on the run too, Cameron. You know that she's out of sorts because the first time you see her, the camera is upside down. Yep. Yeah. Flippity-loo, freaksie-poo. What is happening? Yeah.

[00:07:22] I was going to ask, have you guys heard of this director, Joe Nathan Franks? Did I read that wrong? Is this his first episode? I mean, the man knows how to direct Trek. I think he's got good things ahead. Yeah. Well, at least he got to direct an episode of The Matrix, but we'll get into that. Yeah. He produced that show Roswell back in like 99. I mean, come on. He guest starred on Sybil.

[00:07:48] Every time I bring up Jonathan Frakes, my mother-in-law goes, oh, he's married to Jeannie Francis. And I'm like, okay, who's that? She's a longtime soap actor. And I was like, oh, okay. Fun. Like, I mean, it's really cool for them that they have 90s TV money. I guess they didn't have to change the monograms on the towels, right? Yeah. I'm sure they've never heard that joke. Yeah. We actually have a parade here because I'm in New Orleans. And one of the crews in the parade is the number ones.

[00:08:18] And it's just based on Frakes. That's awesome. That's very cool. I have a beard for no reason related to that. I just, I really like having a beard. It has nothing to do with Star Trek. You didn't have one in season one of our coverage though, right? That's not even a little bit true. The last time I didn't have a beard was for a wedding I was officiating. And the bride specifically asked me to shave. And I looked at my wife and I said, is that okay, honey?

[00:08:46] And I saw you sat down in that chair too. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tall chair, but not for me. Well, who else doesn't have a beard is Pike, who the Admiral is here to meet. Cause we're talking about Star Trek discoverer. Oh, okay. But is it, is it easy to say that Admiral Cornwell might be the best Starfleet Admiral we've ever met? Like as far as we're not worried about her motivations, there's no ulterior motives going on.

[00:09:14] She's just a good person who's here to represent what's good about Starfleet. I mean, of course, excluding all of our favorite captain and crew characters who become admirals. I think there's a solid argument to be made for Cornwell. That's a good point. Cause like, I'm, I'm watching next gen with my daughter and she's like, every time there's like an admiral or even just a guest, they're always a jerk and they ruin everything. And I'm like, God, yeah, they totally do. I mean, yeah.

[00:09:42] I will say, I mean, she is deft at diplomacy when, when Pike is all like mines, mines are disgusting. Is that why you sent me out and kept me out of the war? And then when she's just like, yes, that is why we kept, sent you out because we wanted the best and you're the best Pike. And he's like, oh, okay. I feel like there's totally a look from a Wosha-kun in that scene where it's like, oh, so you're implying the rest of us are not the best of Starfleet. You were fine with throwing us into the war. Thanks.

[00:10:12] To which the admiral properly replied, who are you? Because you're on the discovery bridge crew and who are you? You haven't had an episode yet. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Talking about not getting episodes yet. Yeah. But at least Arium got her first. And last and last. Guys, this whole season is all about like, as Jesse has been saying, it's meant to be binged.

[00:10:41] It's meant to be watched as one long movie. It's all about all these disparate elements coming together in the end. And you go, oh, it was all a plan from the very beginning. I get it. I see the scenes. Why would you not introduce Arium's relationship with the rest of the crew? Yes. Miles before this. Episode one. Episode two at the latest. Yeah. It's inexcusable. And that's only one of the plots they should have introduced before in this episode. Yeah. The first time I saw this episode, and it happens on rewatches that I've done too, it's

[00:11:10] like, I remember the first year or two of this show. Every time they cut to her and you hear that like, you know, like whenever it was just like, whenever she's moving. And I was like, who is that? Who is that? Who is that? Who is this? Yes. She looks so good. Cool. And, and yeah. And then like, they finally start showing her and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Arium. Okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. And about halfway through, I'm like, we're going to fucking kill her. Aren't they? You're going to do it.

[00:11:39] You're making me care about her and her relationships. Yeah. They turned her into just like one of the weekly guest characters of any other show that like someone falls in love with or whatever. And it's like, oh yeah, this is it. But they do it with a regular and then kill her. What's cool about it is that like, I feel like as a Star Trek fan, you're watching her memories and you're like, it, it looks like she's wearing blue and silver, but it's so clearly a red shirt on her.

[00:12:06] I don't know where they're going with this, but what's really cool about this is yes, they do kill Arium. Let's, you know, spoiler alert, I guess. Spoiler alert. Yeah. Yeah. This actor gets to come back and play Lieutenant Nilsson for the remainder of the show without the prosthetics. Yeah. Which that's what I didn't understand though. It's cause I know like they had like, was she the first and then Hannah Cheeseman replaced

[00:12:33] her and then she came back or something along those lines. It's very convoluted, but it, it does kind of smack of like, uh, we don't want to pull a yard here. Like let's, let's keep her on the cast. Let's keep paying this actor. Cause she's very good. Like she's very good because the writing did not do her fate any favors, but the acting

[00:12:57] from everyone involved, Sonequa, uh, Mary Wiseman and her, like the end works despite not being set up. Yeah. Absolutely. Which it should have. Oh, I, I was tearing up rewatching it this morning. I'm like, what, why am I tearing up at this? I just found out that she has a history that she had been caring about her from the first episode. How impactful that would have been.

[00:13:22] But Cameron, I will argue that the writing is good because they know I don't care about Arium nearly the same way that I care about Tilly or Michael. So having the emotion come from Tilly and Michael is like you said, that's what makes it land. That's what, you're right. You're right. That's what makes it work. And I, and I don't think we should have seen like all of her memories per se, but we should have seen those scenes with the rest of the crew and their relationship together.

[00:13:49] And then this episode, seeing her memories of those scenes we've been seeing, I think would have been really, I can dig that. I can dig that. Um, she totally eloped on Risa, right? Like that's where they were. I was going to ask, is that the beat? Is that the same beach Cisco met his wife? It has likely to me, but you know, beaches. They all got like. How many beaches are there in Canada? I don't know. There's sand and water. I need, I had to go back and keep watching. It's weird that the, the, the perspective in that shot of them walking and filming and

[00:14:19] talking, you know, about a loping, the kids aren't like their kids are playing in the background and the couple is walking, but they never change position in relation to the kids. And I, yeah, it's very strange, but I was wondering if he had one of those selfie sticks and that's how they're taking the video. I was wondering who was taking the video. I was guessing it was just a little floaty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They probably don't need sticks in the century. They have worker bees on Discovery. Why don't they have selfie bees? Yeah. Right. That's right. Yeah.

[00:14:49] It's a little dot holding the camera. Yeah. Well, we don't have people holding cameras, but we do have people holding microphones. We got a bunch of good callers tonight. So let's go ahead and hear from our first one here. Let's start with Abby tonight. Hey, hey, open pike. It's Abby Summer from the First Flight Podcast. Got some thoughts about Project Daedalus here. Yeah. So I'm sure you've talked about this, and I know that the world in general kind of has this feeling, but I wish we had known about Arium a whole lot more before this episode.

[00:15:18] I think it was well done, but it could have been so much more and so much better if we had had more backstory for her. And I understand all the whys. I just wish there was. I really enjoy her relationship with Tilly. I think it's fun to see both of them with somebody that they know and trust and feel comfortable with and just can banter like that. It's good to see them really being friends. And I have to say, I really like Nan in this one. She is just stone cold.

[00:15:48] And I appreciate that, especially where we see her go later on. And this foundational moment for her, I think, is way more than the yum yum line that people always say. And this is a good connective piece for me. I feel like there's a lot of things that happen in this one that are getting us to where we're going. So it's like the middle of the story, which is exactly what it is. So well done. Can't wait to hear what you think. Hope you and yours are well. We'll talk soon.

[00:16:13] Abby, I'm glad that you also brought up Miriam because I got plenty more notes on Miriam here. The way that she plays artificially augmented is just the tiniest little notes of Brent Spiner. And I really wonder, did Jonathan Frakes bring those to the table? Or was that something that she thought to go research when she found out, oh, all these pages have my name on them. This is great.

[00:16:42] We find out that she was involved in a shuttle accident and hence the augmentation and the death of her fiance. Much like a fellow Strange New Worlds person's parents or her parents died in a shuttle accident. That's what I'm getting to. Shuttles are freaking dangerous. Shuttles are dangerous right now. What is Bones talking about? Get on the freaking transporter Bones. Don't take a shuttle. You should be way more afraid of shuttles. I'm glad you brought it up, Cam, because I was thinking about that earlier today, too.

[00:17:10] I was like, man, the ships are great in this era, but shuttles. Cornwell's got her life in her own hands taking that shuttle to meet Discovery at the beginning. I wasn't supposed to go upside down. That was an accident. That's how you know she's desperate. She's like, I'm taking a shuttle. And somebody was like, please, ma'am, don't take a shuttle. But I do also agree with Abby about Naan. I really, really like Naan a lot.

[00:17:35] I think we can't not talk about the Yum Yum line and we'll get to it. But what is the Yum Yum line? Why is that in this show? But I really like that this series in particular, we've seen Mirror Universe people. We've seen Spock. We've seen Talosians. Now we see a Barzan, which was introduced in The Next Generation.

[00:18:03] Like, this is where the season, actually, I think maybe this episode is the most like, hey, Star Trek fans, nudge, nudge. See what we did there? That was for you. Like, I think this might be the single most concentrated version of that outside of the episode prior where we go back to Talos IV. And I have no complaints. I'll be completely honest. I really, really like Naan.

[00:18:27] And I think having her as part of the away team at the end so that you know, like, oh, she's badass and she means business. And here it is. Like, it's a really effective way to get us to care about a character that will get some more screen time, unlike her unfortunate counterpart. And I think it's important that it allowed them to show Michael at her breaking point, to show her like, no, I cannot do this thing that you're ordering me to do.

[00:18:57] No, I'm not refusing. I literally cannot do it. And I think, like you said, Jesse, it worked really well, that trio on the ship at the end. But I feel bad. We're skipping. I mean, we're talking about the end so much. We haven't even talked about the chess scene. We haven't talked about Michael and Spock's amazing storyline in this episode. Here's where we'll push back on Cameron for 15 minutes straight. Go ahead, Cameron.

[00:19:23] Guys, if you're going to introduce a story in this episode and wrap it up in this episode, that was the story to introduce and wrap up. Why is that one getting stretched over multiple episodes and not Arium's story? Like, I kept waiting for this episode to end because I remember like they pick up the chess board and I'm assuming the next episode. Like, this has an ending, right? This wraps up the subplot with her and Spock playing chess. Why was that not the one wrapped up in this episode? Because he didn't take her rook. He didn't take her rook.

[00:19:53] Guys, no, what I find frustrating is- I was like watching Cam's brain melt. The minefield when Michael goes, it's like a game. Of course, it's a game. It's learning our moves. We have to introduce chaos. And what does that have to do with the game? You've already established an AI that learns from you. You have to introduce chaos and uncertainty. Yes, I could see it going the other way if they use those tactics to avoid the mines. And then she goes, oh, that's what Spock was doing.

[00:20:21] And that's the direction that Revelation should have gone in. Well, the only part of this that I'll probably agree with you on is that the way they got to that was clumsy because Kayla is like just badassing her way through this minefield. And Pike goes, it's not a game. It's like nothing she said indicates that she thinks it's a game. Like maybe if somebody had said- But then Michael goes, oh, it's just like a game. It has nothing to do with a game.

[00:20:50] Introducing uncertainty into it has nothing to do with a game. But it would have been an easy fix because you just have Kayla say, I feel like they're toying with us. And then Michael goes, oh, a game. Like- No, because that doesn't make sense, Jesse. It makes better sense than how they got there. So we agree that the whole thing is clumsy. I would say the segue into game logic was very clumsy. Yes. I'll ask Vernon this.

[00:21:17] If you're writing or illustrating a scene like this and you say, we'll introduce this uncertainty from people to avoid the mines, would you then show five mines direct hitting on the Enterprise as it goes to the minefield? Or would that be a confusing way to tell that story? Of course. Of course. They did it perfectly. Also, doing like the round robin of like, hey, everyone tell me your favorite maneuver. Like, how is that? That's not introducing uncertainty.

[00:21:45] They're watching what's happening and they're going to be influenced to say which maneuver. Yeah. They're still going to choose good maneuvers. They're not going to be like, turn it off and stop the ship and spin it around three times. Like, they're not going to do something like that. It should have been hard port, like full stop. Yeah. Full impulse. Quarter impulse. Like, it should have been way more random. Saucer separation.

[00:22:30] Saucer separation. Saucer was upside down. All right. There was a couple things. That was a little thing. That's, I mean, my complaints are like in two buckets. Ones that don't matter and ones that do matter. And that one does not matter. Yeah. You guys know me. I'm a sucker for a spore drive jump. I really, I love the spore drive. Yeah. But man, just seeing the discovery go to old fashioned warp. Yeah. I think it hits harder because you're used to seeing the spore drive activate.

[00:22:57] Like when he says, let's go and they warp away from that planet. I was like, oh, this is like hitting me right in my Trekkie heart. And I'm one of the spore drives biggest fans. Yeah. Was that the first time that they showed him saying hit it? Oh man. I feel like we did have one or two others. Yeah. The good one. But this one is like possibly the most classic hit it so far. Because it is just a warp jump.

[00:23:23] And I, and, and like he, I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on him, but let's talk about Pike for a few minutes because he has a, we've been talking about, oh yeah, we can see him growing in this season into the Pike we know and love, but he's not big in this episode. He's in it for sure. He has an important part to play, but this is not about him that I feel like this is strange new world's Pike. We get to see in this episode from the way he just captains normally to the conversation

[00:23:53] with the Admiral, mostly with his interaction with Admiral Cornwell, especially when she is, she finds herself, you know, all of a sudden cowed by this other Admiral control, you know, hologram and realizing that she is, she is now like completely out of her position and out of any comfort zone. Like that is strange new world's Pike who's gives her what about my look tells you, you

[00:24:21] know, like that's a strange new world's line. That's a strange new world's Pike. And I really like seeing it. Yeah. And when like the, the thing mentioned before that about when, um, when she tells him like, yeah, I kept you out of this because you know, you're the best, your crew's the best. Like that to me in, in my head, like when I was watching it yesterday, when I was watching it, um, was okay. She just greenlit the series.

[00:24:49] Like that, that to me was like the jumping off point for strange new worlds. I was like, yeah, this is, this is when the show was made right there. Like to me, it just felt like it. I was like, Ooh, that's a moment. Yeah. Especially when you consider how his hair is styled in this episode. Like this is as much as we've gotten. Much better than the last episodes. Yeah. We're almost there guys. Much better. Yeah. We need another two inches and some gel. That's really what the red angel is going back in time to do. Yeah. A little more pomade. A little more. A little more. Yeah.

[00:25:17] And speaking of developing style, we do have a style here where we listen to collars. So let's go ahead and hear from another one. Here is Platy. Hey, open Pike night. This is Platy M3 calling in with my hits, shits, and giggles for Project Daedalus. Hits. We get to see Spock's brain. TOS fans. That was a nice little image. Okay. And this isn't really a positive, but something that hit me as a recent Deep Space Nine rewatcher. Pike goes hard against minds in this episode.

[00:25:43] Fully railing against, quote, giving up our values in the name of security is to lose the battle in advance. End quote. I mean, what do you think Cisco thinks about that? Oh, love the light up deltas on the mag boots of the EV suit. All right. Yes. Michael just keeps saying stuff repeatedly like, quote, I know for a fact Spock didn't kill someone. Or how much she's so positive Tyler wouldn't do this or wouldn't do that. When really, she doesn't know anything like that. That's not a way to convince people.

[00:26:10] And for someone so logical and science-based as her, that's like really dumb to just keep saying that stuff over and over again with zero proof. How many times has she been wrong? This level of confidence isn't warranted. Also, how shitty are those mines coming back to them? Minutes into that minefield without Discovery shooting or moving fast. And they're still in one piece, like barely damaged. What, four people got hurt total? They'd surely not have stopped an entire Klingon fleet in time to save Section 31.

[00:26:36] Giggles had to crack up at the crescendo of music when Spock agrees to play chess. And also had to chuckle when the awake team turned on the air in a room with a bunch of dead bodies. And then they popped their helmets open. Ew. Can't imagine the smell growing in that room right then. That's Platy M3 signing out. Okay, Platy, scientifically, the bodies are frozen and the air had already been evacuated, so the smell would have gone with, right?

[00:27:00] Okay, but they're still standing right below them when they say, I'm establishing gravity and atmosphere. It's like, yes. They're literally looking straight at them. Are you guys going to step aside? It's definitely a work hazard. Like there's no... It just gets blown into gore and grizzle all around them. There's no getting around it. But I do agree with Platy on the boots. It's specifically, I love that it's just an incredibly simple, like, do-it-in-your-backyard practical effect.

[00:27:29] Like, you show the feet hanging, you turn the lights on, the feet hit the ground. Like, for an episode of TV, of a series that is so full of gorgeous CGI, I like that we get to see well-done practical effects alongside those. It really just works for me. I... I'm so confused about this whole episode, but we'll talk about that one for now. Why are they wearing EV suits when they beam over? Because the atmosphere's been sucked out.

[00:27:58] Yeah, there's only one deck on the whole base that still has life support. They do establish that. They knew that beforehand? Yeah, they knew that before they beamed over. There's a briefing scene where they talk about that. And so they think Patel is on the one deck with life support. Yes. Okay. I missed that. I mean, they don't say that, but it's inferred. It's like, well... Yeah. But that's... The deck with the controls station is... They should have made a bigger deal about that. Why are we... We're at control headquarters.

[00:28:28] Patel just messaged us, why is there only one deck with life support? Why was that such a casually mentioned thing that I missed it twice? It's not... It's not asked... That question is not asked, and I agree. It should have been asked, like, isn't this weird? The whole time, I'm like, why are they not freaking out? This is not what they were expecting. Apparently, it was sort of what they were expecting? Well, so some of it is covered in the fact that Cornwell hasn't been there for a long time. So she's... Like, she doesn't know.

[00:28:57] And the whole thing with Section 31 is, you don't know what we're up to. But they just spoke to someone from there on the view screen, they believe. Right. They have no reason to think this place is abandoned right now. They have no reason to think that. Right. I agree with you, Cam. But from the Section 31 perspective... Let me rewind a little bit. What is their plan A? Why are they going to Section 31 headquarters?

[00:29:24] To demand that Cornwell's access to control be reinstated. And apparently arrest Admiral Patel. Yeah. I mean, I had to go back and read the script because I was like, why the fuck are they going there? Apparently, Admiral Cornwell jumped on a fugitive spaceship and said, let's go make an arrest. She has no authority to make... Under what... On what grounds? Under authority of the Admiralty. How are they going to make an arrest?

[00:29:53] This is why she pairs well with Pike. Because they're both cowboy-style officers. She's like, justice is falling apart here. I'm going to take this matter into my own hands. And I'm going to go arrest her. Okay. Or, or... I hate to say it. I know we've talked good about Cornwell, but is she just railing against cancel culture because she got her access cut off? Right. And she's trying to storm the Capitol. We might be on the wrong side here, guys. No, no.

[00:30:21] So, she's on the right side because she already does not trust AI. And that is the correct side to be on. That's true. That's true. I love that Star Trek has to keep learning this lesson. Yes. Well, and apparently humanity IRL, John. Like, it's a prescient story in a lot of sad ways. As many Star Treks have been. Indeed. Indeed. All right. Yeah. I mean, just that's... I mean, I'm already off... I even remember the first time watching this just being so confused.

[00:30:50] Like, what's plan A? Why are they going here? What? I don't... They're fugitives. They just said they're on the run and they're flying straight to police headquarters to do something? Mm-hmm. And I didn't think about it until just now. How did they know that there was no environment on the station? Because didn't they say that, like, they couldn't scan things because it was a former prison that would block the scans? I remember that line. They did make a big point about that line.

[00:31:20] You're right, Vernon. Thank you. Now... Look, Cam, I'll tell you now. Jesse loves this episode because Ash Tyler's only mentioned and not shown. And... I have that note. Like, that's another plot. She's like, I'm going to prove his innocence. Drop that plot line for the whole episode. Mm-hmm. So, the other thing I like about this episode, John, is that it's very much about semantics and people arguing, like, the meanings of words. And, like, I just... I really dig that.

[00:31:50] And I will say, Cameron, I think the reason you don't really get this episode is because translation is not the essence of understanding. Boom. Oh! Damn! No, but for real, I do. I like this episode for the most part. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it's flawless. Because it's not.

[00:32:09] It gets saved, as many Star Trek episodes do, by the acting and probably the deft hand of Jonathan Frakes knowing how to make an episode work when you have some pieces that clearly don't. Like... This... I realize what this episode is. It is Revenge of the Sith. It is a sci-fi opus that realized too late that it had not put in the groundwork now that it's entered its third act.

[00:32:35] And it's struggling, scrambling to shoehorn in all the pieces it needs to do now. And then ends in an epic battle between two friends that, despite everything else, actually kind of works. I like the fight scene a lot. Like... I mean, the fight scene itself is great. I mean, ripping out Nan's respirator and just like the... You can feel every punch and kick to burn him. Like, she's just like... Yeah.

[00:33:02] Who did we talk to that mentioned that Disco is better listened to than watch? Because Sonequa and Martin Green, the noise she makes when she gets hit, holy God, Vernon. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Feel it every time. Do you guys remember what move it was that turned the tides on the fight? Oh, when she does the double punch to the head. The ear punch! Just the ear punch that saves the day! Yeah. I was... And at another point... And she does the jump kick, too. Yeah, that's another thing.

[00:33:31] I was like, they're doing some TOS. Like, I was expecting just a karate chop, too. Yep. The judo chop. I know. I wish we had gotten like the double fist punch. Yeah. I'll take the ear pop. I was like, these are... This must have been some TOS era Starfleet fighting training skills. Because I was like, that is straight out of the 60s. I love it. And I know it was beautiful. I'll take like home run swings with the back end of a phaser rifle to the face any day of the week.

[00:33:58] Like, when she picks that up and she's like, this is not going to work. This might work. I'm like, oh man. Like, to your point, they're telling you all the way through this fight, this will not end with everybody alive. Like, this kind of fight doesn't end with people going, oh wow, you really went after me there, huh? Yeah, like, I'll get you next time. Like, this fight ends with somebody dead. It's not a Colbert-Ash Tyler fight. No. Right. Which again, we were robbed of an Ash Tyler murder.

[00:34:27] I promise I'll let it go at some point. Just not today. You gotta find him somewhere in this episode, Jesse. And we do have to talk about Stamets a little bit, but first let's hear from another caller. Here is Melanie. Hi guys, here's Melanie Gristie from Switzerland. So finally we have Katrina on board. I really like her. I'm so sad knowing she sacrifices herself later on, but for now Discovery and the crew are fugitives and on the run. The entire Federation is in danger again. There is Tilly again, babbling away and wondering where they are headed.

[00:34:57] Crosses to the Section 31 headquarters. Thinking about a Section 31 movie, I believe they really could have made so much more out of it. But back to Disconome. You'll learn more about Arium, which is nice, but foreboding. We finally have the scene when Katrina tells Chris why he was sidelined. According to her, he set out the war because if they lost to the Klingons, they wanted the best of Starfleet to survive. And this is Chris Pike and all he represents. I love the way Chris seems so perplexed and responds with a rather unsure thank you.

[00:35:27] Spoken Michael's conflict. It is so human. This is a good episode on so many levels, with so many storylines woven together. And it culminates in Arium's death later. Which maybe could have been prevented if Pike hadn't been fixated on Ash being the traitor. I don't know. On a side note, fascinating how the tubal lift seems to wait for the conversation between Pike and Michael to be finished. And is this the first time I see the uniform in a female version with a skirt? None is wearing one. And one last point.

[00:35:56] I need to say it once and for all. Anson Mount looks absolutely stunning in these blue Discovery uniforms. My time is running out, so that's it for now. Take care. Live long and prosper. Okay. Thank you for reaching out from the Alps. Yeah, that's gotta be our first ever call from the actual Swiss Alps, right? I'm pretty sure, yeah. I don't think we need to even re-listen to our old episodes to confirm that. Wow, Melanie.

[00:36:20] That is so cool that you managed to find a way to make your Star Trek Discovery Blu-ray work while you're on vacation. I hear Linux was involved. That's impressive. Well, Cameron, it's pronounced Linux. Linux. If you were a nerd, you'd know that. Did that on purpose, guys. The dedication of our callers, it really cannot be overstated. And I'm very glad to hear from you again, Melanie.

[00:36:42] I do wonder, you mentioned, John, you mentioned Stamets. Mm-hmm. Am I the only one who wants like four more scenes of Stamets and Spock? I loved the Stamets-Spock scene. Such a good pairing. Like, and to Melanie's point, like, yeah, Cameron, Spock is very human in this episode. That's why he's so emotional. They have a very deep emotional rift that they need to solve.

[00:37:12] That's why it takes more than one episode and a mind meld. Like, he's so heartless sometimes. The third episode with our new Spock, and he just doesn't read his Spock. Yeah. They are siblings. They have a lifetime of emotional baggage to get through here. Which is why the Stamets scene works so well, because he's not talking to Stamets like he's been his brother for his whole life. Yeah. He's talking to him like a fellow scientist, fellow Starfleet officer, and it's just fun. It's a short little scene.

[00:37:41] It's a poignant little scene. There's lots of poignant scenes in this. But I also like the Stamets of, hey, can you guys make some noise? Because he cannot be the only one talking here, and then immediately regretting his decision. Stamets might be the most human person in this episode. Again, it was interesting that they didn't have Spock in this episode or Stamets. I just don't know where those characters were this episode. You know that Stamets has a soft side.

[00:38:10] We don't see him calmly reach out, counselor-esque with advice like this before. I do wonder. It's fine. But I do wonder. It feels a little more Reno-ish. I was waiting for Reno. If it was written for Reno, like even the little, oop, that's fine. Oop, that's fine. The whole thing about think out loud or something, that felt very Reno-ish. Maybe they're like, oh, we're going to find a place for Stamets. Let's just shuffle them in here.

[00:38:39] But Spock's retort, I mean, it's not even a retort. It's Spock demonstrating, I still have compassion. I'm still thinking clearly. Because I think maybe if you re-examine this, Mr. Stamets, you'll realize that it's not that Colbert doesn't love you. It's that he doesn't know who he is anymore. And that wouldn't work if this were Reno. No, and that felt very shoehorned in. Because 10 seconds before, Spock was like, you know, the fate of the galaxy is here. Why are we talking about X?

[00:39:07] And then all of a sudden he's getting Stamets relationship advice. What is happening? He's throwing relationship advice at Stamets because Stamets just did the same to him. You just have no mercy. You have to remember Spock's long history with the Discovery crew, which is why I think it is a shame that we were robbed of the shot when Spock walks in during Arium's final scene. Spock walks into the bridge that he doesn't lean over to Saru and say, am I talking to

[00:39:36] the one with the face things or the robot? Which one is this? Who is that? Who? Who? Well, I mean, he just walks in. We were robbed. We were robbed. Because he just walks in and joins in the conversation. Like, you don't even know who we're talking to. You don't know who these people. I'll give you that. I'm honestly, I think maybe I'm forgetting something. But what's the deal with Spock?

[00:40:03] So he thinks he's crazy because he's getting the red angel signals. He's getting those in his brain. So he thinks he's crazy and he checks himself into a psychiatric institute. Yes. And then he finds out, oh no, the signals are actually happening out there. So I'm not crazy. So I'm checking myself out. Yep. And they try to stop him. So he, I think you would colloquially say Volkender of Pinchism. That's a great line. Yep. And then what happened? When did he go crazy, crazy?

[00:40:32] When, as in when we met him. Like, I'm missing that. The time jump, the. Yeah. After he left, he went on the run and went crazy. Do we know why he suddenly went crazy? Yes, he did actually go crazy. Yeah. He did actually get unhooked from time. Yeah, because. When did that happen? That happened off screen. Okay. I feel like we're missing a link here. No, that's why he checked himself in. He caught in a shuttle, Cam. The shuttle drove him crazy. You're right.

[00:41:02] With no temporal shielding. Yeah. But yeah, he. So, and in this episode in particular, it's not that he's like still crazy, right? No, yeah. It's that he's now completely stumped as to like, why was I the person who was chosen to deliver this message? Or figure out what this message is. Right. And that's where Stamets comes in with that. He hasn't fully like, after getting un-crazy, for lack of a better term, he hasn't like

[00:41:30] fully let the logic scab over yet. Right. Because Michael is there. He's still an open wound. Yeah. Right. Because Michael is there digging at it. And I think. So for me personally, the scene between him and Michael, where he's like yelling at her and saying like, oh yeah, of course. Why didn't you stop your parents from getting killed? You totally should have been able to defend them as a child.

[00:41:54] It's actually Spock like desperately wanting to help her let go of her guilt, but he's still angry. So he's like throwing this in her face as though it's just purely a logical argument. And to the point of the scene, he is correct about Michael. What Michael does is say, this is now my responsibility.

[00:42:18] I am responsible for the fate of actually everything all the time, because that's what we've seen this character do every time we've seen this character approach a problem. Yeah. Because he even says like, what was it? Like, you think the red angel wanted you personally or something like that? Like, and it's like, oh yeah. Like when you say it out loud, it's like, yeah, she is kind of always thinking it's all about her.

[00:42:47] And I mean, trust, I love Burnham. Like, I think she's awesome, but it is kind of a, yeah, you carry the weight of the world on your shoulders, but you're putting it there. It's absolutely a defense mechanism that she has built. Like, I can bury myself in work. I can stick to duty at all times, you know, as a way to keep from having to work through my emotions. Like she says, I express myself through my work.

[00:43:13] If you've ever worked with somebody like that, it's awful, but we love to watch her in dramatic situations on TV. I do personally. Yes. Or, I mean, you want people working like that. You just don't want to be with them. Right. I will say that is some nice writing to have that brought up. And then at the end of the episode, one of the few times where she cannot save someone's life through the sheer force of will. Like that hasn't happened since the pilot, right? She's been able to succeed.

[00:43:40] She has said, I can save this person when no one else thought she could and has successfully done that from the pilot until this point. And this is the first time since George O. I think from the moment they beamed onto the section of 31 station, I think the writing is perfect at the end of this episode. Like there's not a thing I would change. The amount of information Arium gives out is just enough. Like it moves just enough along.

[00:44:08] And I really, the final act of this episode saves it from the middle of this episode. But I think you're forgetting the point where we go back to the Enterprise. Discovery. Discovery. Thank you very much. And Saru reveals that he somehow can see heat signatures through videos. So we knew that Kelpien specifically can see a wider range of the light spectrum from the

[00:44:38] time on Kaminar when he saw the Red Angel. Sure. But the question it immediately brought up for me was, oh, had he not seen the Spock footage before of Spock breaking out of the asylum? Like, because he should have noticed it right then if he had. But it's footage. Well, you know. What was he seeing heat signature? I think we're supposed to assume it's like tricorder cam. It's not just a camera. It's a everything scanner camera. It's just presented in a visual spectrum.

[00:45:07] But if you, it's predator vision. You could switch between filters. Yeah. You just have to actually just choose to switch beyond the visual. In the metadata. It looks like in the metadata you can flip that on because he does show them footage of it. So a few problems here though. Because we see, like, they make a point of going into seeing his close up when he's watching the video though. Like, that's when he gets suspicious and says, actually, I want to check something out here. And he says, I noticed this.

[00:45:34] He didn't say, like, I thought to look this up, which why would he? He says he noticed it through the view screen. Right. Kelpie and eyes can't see, like, he has to change the view screen. You can't just watch a view screen and see the heat signature. Like, is he able to see the metadata through the screen? It could be, like, how they, like, the universal translator, but, like, for eyes, since they have different species. Like, whether it's him or, like, the big octopus head guy or, like, any of the other. I like that.

[00:46:04] Okay. All right, Vernon. I'll give you that one. But they're holograms. He says they don't change heat. But they're holograms. Why are the holograms giving off lifelike heat signatures in the first place? Right. And they're not. Speaking of. What? They're not giving off lifelike heat signatures is the problem. No, no. He's saying that's not the problem. He's not saying, look, they're not giving off heat. He's saying, look, it's not changing when they should change. Right.

[00:46:33] But to Vernon's point, they're made of photons. They would have a radiative quality to them. That would equal a Vulcan. I mean, if you put the same. I mean. Vulcans control their emotions. So maybe they. And so why would he think that her temperature would change? That was a thing, too. But okay. Last point then. And this one is more just a pedantic, funny thing. But going back to Star Trek and AI, it's cute that they think that this super AI would have to actually make.

[00:47:00] Would actually have to video holograms doing the thing instead of just creating the footage itself. Yeah. Right. Why would it just create the footage? Yeah. Well, I don't know. Because they would have too many fingers, I guess. Well, somebody. I just still have six fingers. Somebody at. Yeah. Somebody at Section 31 would have put that prompt in like, all right, give me Spock in an asylum taking people out with lethal force. Pav, you're checking yourself out of the asylum. Yeah. But they at least got the comm badges right.

[00:47:30] Because every AI Star Trek thing I see nowadays, it's always some goofy, distorted. Delta badge. It changes sides constantly. Yeah. But Vernon, I'm really, really glad that you brought up Octopus Head because I'm serious. I'm always glad someone brings up Octopus Head. One of my favorite bloopers from this season of Discovery is there's the scene later where

[00:47:56] Pike is talking about how I'm going to promote Saru to Captain because I got to go back to the cool ship and he's really earned it and he's been here. He's experienced this all with us. And then at the end of that speech, instead of announcing Saru, he goes, and? It's Octopus Head. Come on up here, Octopus Head. And the person in the prosthetic is like, oh, thanks. It's a great blooper. And it's one of the only seasons that has bloopers, but highly recommend.

[00:48:25] Go find that on YouTube. Yeah. I will. I will. Now, we do get some breadcrumbs here with non-beings. Oh, non-breadcrumbs? See what I did there? Nice. Nice. I thought she did. Being suspicious of Arium. But two things here. Why did she not say something before the away mission? Exactly. Like, hey, Captain Pike, by the way. Well, both Rue and Saru get suspicious about things, but to no avail.

[00:48:53] I think the dots came and cleaned up the breadcrumbs trail before she could do anything. Because, yeah, they're sure are breadcrumbs, but they lead nowhere. Unlike our callers who lead us somewhere. So let's go ahead and hear from another one. Here is Mark. Hello. Engineer Mark here. Today we're talking Project Daedalus. I could go into the details of this episode, some of which are very intense, such as the interactions between Burnham and Spock. Some were total hand-wavy to keep the pace moving.

[00:49:21] They, at the beginning, had a heavy police procedural feel to it. But no. The main plot of this episode is the very tragic and sudden end of Lieutenant Commander Arium. This is something I do identify with. From the day Arium lost her guy and her life changed by being transformed into a cyborg. In sharing that one specific memory of their time together, it tells so much more in how keenly she is still feeling that loss of him and of herself.

[00:49:50] A loss that some never get through. One that no one ever fully gets through. We carry it with us. And all just learn how to live with it better to varying degrees. To go forward with our friends and family who are sometimes more than just who you're related to. Arium had that right to the end with the Discovery crew. As I have family here with Open Pike. My song choice? Beautiful Day by U2.

[00:50:19] It speaks to how life can sometimes be very hard, very challenging, intense. The importance is to find the joy in life, even when things are difficult. Live long and prosper. Beautiful call, Engineer Mark. I really, really like that commentary. And I think you're 100% right. Because there is a lot in this episode about chosen family and found family.

[00:50:44] Like we, you know, we learn later in Discovery, or and earlier, actually both, partway through this season, we learn that Michael considers Saru to be family. And what I like about that in this episode is that she has this huge blow up with her brother. And then when she goes to the bridge, Saru is the one that goes, hey, are you okay? Like something, you look rattled. And that's because they are as close as family.

[00:51:13] And it's the kind of thing that as you're thinking back on Discovery, when they mention it in like season five, you're like, did they really, did they establish that? Yeah, they did. They absolutely did. They did it subtly, and they did it, you know, heavy handedly when they needed to. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. And I am beyond grateful to have you as part of the found open pike night family, Engineer Mark. Thank you for a beautiful call. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:51:40] And again, like we've talked about, really, it was a poignant episode. It would have been a poignant season of Arium, too. It would have, like, we could have seen a lot of this build up ahead of time. Not just Arium. Here's my other big, like, missed opportunity. Cameron's like, actually, I hate the whole thing. I really do. I'm so sorry, guys. I thought I was going to like it more. I swear there's some episodes coming up I like again. I think. I'm pretty sure. Are there any left?

[00:52:07] We have mentioned Admiral Patel's name a lot this episode. Far more than it was ever brought up in any other episodes. Apparently, Admiral Patel has shown up in previous episodes, because when I looked up the script, she's in the previously on. But made zero impression on me. She has basically introduced this episode because she has given a name and we're told she's a logic extremist. Yeah, she's a generic Vulcan character.

[00:52:30] So, again, but it feels like, and again, this is where it feels kind of Revenge of the Sithy, like, it felt like you were trying to do this, which would have been cool, which is if they had set up these Section 31 admirals the whole time. And we see them and we know them and we know she's a logic extremist. And we know Cornwall has issues with her. And she is a character and she keeps appearing. And we think she's going to be the big bad. We think she's going to be the big bad. We've been seeing these admirals. We've been hearing about Section 31 headquarters. And we finally get here.

[00:52:57] And so we will be as surprised as the crew when things are not what they seem. When we find out that, because right now we're introduced to this character, we're basically introduced to Patel this episode. And 10 minutes later, we learn she's a hologram. Who the fuck cares? If that had been a twist, it feels like it should have been a twist and reveal. That's what I'm saying. She's not there for emotional weight. For episodes, episodes, all the times we've been seeing these admirals on the screen talking to the crew.

[00:53:24] And then we found out, oh, by the way, they've actually been dead that whole time. That would have been interesting. Okay, but I'm going to push back on you a little bit. It wasn't just Patel's body up there. No, yeah. The three admirals that were dressing Leland down with Georgiou in the last episode, that was all three of them. Yes. That was all of them. We did see them alive and now we see them dead. I agree with you. It would have been good to see them alive more than one scene. It should have mattered. That's what I'm saying. It feels like, yeah, we'll just show them once and that'll be fine, right?

[00:53:54] Here's a breadcrumb. I need more than a breadcrumb. I need a slice of bread. I wonder if that's an editing thing, though. Like, maybe it would have been that way and it just got trimmed out? Yeah, well, we'll take it from this episode. It's fine. We got them in later. Oh, how about we take it from this episode and then soon it's just the one episode. Yeah, maybe. But I am going to say, for my part, I don't think those characters matter on any level other than they're the bad morals, right?

[00:54:23] Because how many evil higher up Starfleet officers can we cram into a single season? Like, you have the whole idea of Section 31 here. You've got... I can't even remember his name, the other Section 31 guy that I hate, Leland. Like, you've got Leland. Are you going to take scream time away from his hammy performance to give it to these characters who are literally only there to show you that the computer has thrown them away?

[00:54:50] Like, I don't personally need any more time with these three admirals, especially because Spock's family has on-screen history with the Logic Extremists. That's enough to go, oh, okay, they're tying it back into that thing, Spock and Sarah. Well, they need to tell us that he had an issue. They need to tell the Logic Extremists earlier. They told you about the Logic Extremists in season one. Yeah, with Michael running away and everything. But with Patel? That Patel was one of them? No, not with Patel. No, just them in general. Like, didn't that...

[00:55:18] That was also what blew up Sarek's shuttle, too? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And they end up playing a factor in, I think, season four of Discovery when they're trying to reunite... Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just talking about this character. We've talked about how it feels this season is kind of missing an anchor. Like, we don't know who the bad guy is at all. So you want the anchor to be one of the characters who dies and then you still have Leland running around being the bad character anchor?

[00:55:47] That the guy that you thought, that section 31, and these are the admirals that represent it. They're the ones pulling the strings. Oh, guess what? They're not the ones pulling the strings. It's Control. It's the computer. Which also needed to be... This is, again, kind of the first time they explain what Control is. It just feels like, oh, we're in our third act. We need to actually kind of establish who the villain is. But it's kind of done in this weird... It just doesn't feel important. It doesn't feel like...

[00:56:15] I just remember the first time I watched this being like, what is happening? I just see that. That does kind of make sense. It's like, yeah, if it was like the admirals who were the bad guys that you think they're the bad guys and Leland's just kind of going along. Which he was at the time, but then it turns out that, yeah, okay, yeah, no, that makes sense. Yes, I could see that. And I can hear you there, but for me, and I think it's clear from this episode, that the emotional weight isn't supposed to come from the suddenly dead bad guys. It comes from you learn who's pulling the strings, then you see that they're pulling those strings on Arium.

[00:56:45] Which, again, we probably could have had a couple more episodes caring about her. I'm not going to take that away from you. But I think that that is their substitute for trying to make you worry about these Admiral characters. Because they're not present. They're always in phone calls. We learn Control's pulling the strings, but Control is still kind of this abstract. Yeah. It's still kind of just like, what? Until this episode. They fool us, and they give us a beloved character.

[00:57:13] We love Admiral Cornwell, and Jane Brooke is amazing in the role. I think she is an unsung hero of early discovery. She literally shows up to tell them the plot line they forgot to tell us in the first half of this season. She literally is like, so the AI is evil, and it's locked me out, and there's a logic extremist, and there's a minefield, and the secret base is in this prison, and I'm here to help you get there. That is literally her part of this episode. She assumes- You pick the right person to do that.

[00:57:43] You're right. You're right. And hang out with Arium while you can. Yeah. She assumes that the logic extremist locked her out. She doesn't yet know that the computer is attempting to become self-aware. I guess that's what I'm saying. I love that red herring. That should have been pulled back more. That should have been more than just this episode. That's what I'm saying. And I feel like if you put the admirals in more episodes, and then they're not the main threat, then you've got this episode with two or three red herrings. That's the thing. Everything they would be saying would be control. So they would be the main threat.

[00:58:13] It's just who they actually are is what changes. But we would know. We would have an understanding of what the motives were. I'm not saying that your logic doesn't work. I'm saying that I don't think it matters. I don't think that would necessarily, from my perspective, improve the episode. Because the episode is meant to make you care about characters on the crew for, you know, I'm going to say this with air quotes, once in Discovery's life. Well, then maybe they should have been different episodes.

[00:58:43] I mean, maybe that reveal with the Arium death is too much in one episode. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of things that should have been in more episodes, especially like our caller, Katie, who we always love hearing from. Hey, hi, it's Katie. Look, here's the thing, guys. It's been six years. I'm on the internet. I am aware of what's coming.

[00:59:05] But holy shit, I was not expecting to be crying at the end of an episode when they have just introduced me to the character that they're going to kill. And yet I cared that much. And it started out so good because Kat showed up and I was so excited. Oh, man. The roller coaster of this episode was real. So two quick things.

[00:59:32] First off, again, with the conversations that should be private in public spaces. You know, the whole Pike on the bridge asking why he got left out of the war. Liked it. Loved it. Great scene. Not upset about it. But also, it's kind of mean to the rest of the crew. Like, talk about driving a point home about how good Pike is. Yeah, still should have been a private conversation. And a question.

[01:00:00] Because I'm only just watching this now and it's 2025. AI deepfakes already exist. The whole holograms on call thing wasn't terribly surprising to me. Was it surprising when everybody first watched the episode? That's all. Kat was here. Okay, thanks. Bye. Okay. That's a good point. Excellent call and very good points. And I love that you use the phrasing a private conversation.

[01:00:30] I was like, yeah, they do get better at this. There's a whole song about it. Yeah. Oh, wait. No, they don't get better because they still do it. Yeah. But he knows that he's doing something wrong. Now, to your point, though, about the holograms, I think that's a really good question. Because if you remember all the way back, what was it? Like 10 weeks ago to season two, episode one. Spike tells his chief engineer, rip all that holographic communication out of the Enterprise. I don't like it.

[01:00:59] I feel like I'm talking to a ghost. Perfect little line of foreshadowing. Is it maybe too subtle? Maybe. For sure. But to the point, at this point, having holograms at all in Star Trek is a little bit of a retcon. Right? Because we don't really see holograms in TOS. We see a lot of androids that are exactly human for the most part. But we don't see many holograms, if any.

[01:01:26] So, I mean, as a person who had watched a lot of Star Trek before I watched this season of Discovery, I was like, oh, he's going to say they're holograms. Like, video things showing what they're not supposed to show. It's going to be holograms. But I didn't get there until like 10 or 15 seconds before Saru laid it out. I was like, okay, so what's wrong with it? Like, did they use holograms to alter it?

[01:01:55] Oh, they created whole holographic people. Okay. And then I immediately remembered that line from episode one. And I was like, oh, wow. I actually, that's really clever. Well done, Discovery. Speaking of conversations they have on the bridge, how long before entering a shitstorm do you think you should have the conversation about what sort of shitstorm you're entering? Oh, much earlier than, oh, we're at the minefield. By the way, there's a minefield. Yeah.

[01:02:25] I mean, I know that's a TV trip, so that's not an important thing. But it is like, we've got 10 minutes. Hey, do you want to tell us what we're about to see? Maybe that's a longer than 10 minute conversation. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And it could be argued that Cornwell is playing everything close to the vest. But at a certain point. The shields thing, it's like, okay, this is just because it's TV. Yeah. Right. And then to your point, though, it doesn't end up mattering. They're like, no, turn the shields on anyway.

[01:02:51] And then the shields are actually doing a pretty good job of keeping the ship alive. So it's like, that was a little bit clumsy. Yeah. But then why don't they just destroy the Enterprise at the end? Are you talking about the Discovery? I'm so sorry. Yes. No, they should just destroy the Enterprise. No, yes. The Discovery is there surrounded by mines. The only two people Control cares about are now on the station. Why don't they?

[01:03:16] And clearly Control knows that Enterprise is communicating and trying to wrestle Control back from Arium. God damn it. And you've got a Rito shirt. I should at least be saying the Cerritos up there. Why don't they just blow up? I, again, trope. But Control has no reason to keep Discovery alive at that point. The Sphere data backup is still on Discovery in case Arium fails. In case Arium fails. Okay. Yeah. In case Arium fails, the data's there.

[01:03:43] Why don't they take Discovery to the past instead of the future, though? That's one thing I don't get. Because if there's any sort of Control remaining, it could survive to 900 years in the future. But the data would survive to when Control is around. If they take Enterprise Discovery to the past, yeah, then Control would just wait until it... Fair enough. Yeah. Okay.

[01:04:11] Also, the data is already present in the past because it's already being collected by the Sphere. Yeah. The Sphere is like hundreds of thousands of years old or whatever. But I agree with John. I think it's the backup argument. You know? Okay. All right. One is none. Two is one. You're right. I will also nitpick 25% of 100,000 years worth of AI information is a lot of freaking AI information. John. But it goes quick. So a couple things. I was really shocked when they said it was only looking for the AI information.

[01:04:40] This whole time, I've been thinking that Control wanted all the Sphere data. All the Sphere data. So it could make any decision. That's how I remembered it. Yeah. So it's weird. Just the AI doesn't seem that important because it's already a super smart AI. But you're right, John. John, the whole episode established was that Arium has to... She has storage problems enough that she has to delete memories every week, but yet can contain 25% of 200 million years of AI data. Well, hundreds of thousands.

[01:05:10] Let's be honest with this argument. I forget the number. But it seems like it would be a lot more than they are implying her brain can hold. Right. But we also don't know, does that hold the memories of smells and tastes in the air and... All the metadata in those memories, you're right. Yeah. With all that stuff. So you got to assume she has a lot of space. It's just that this needs even more space.

[01:05:32] But to the point of the emotional ending of this, I know and I've seen all the takes and all the criticism. I know that Star Trek Discovery is known for its often extreme, arguably over-the-top emotional circumstances. But I will always keep coming back to this, and I think we all agree on this. Because they absolutely found the correct actor in Sonequa Martin-Green to make those moments land.

[01:06:02] Like, when Arium gets thrown out of that airlock, and Michael just reacts wordlessly with that gasp, it's like, that's better than any line you could have put in her mouth. That's better than any single tear action you could have going on. Well, they actually... I was reading the background. They actually airlocked the actress. Like, they killed her. For the sake of realism, yeah. Yeah. Sonequa didn't know that was going to happen. Yeah. Arium shouted, Tom Cruise has nothing on me!

[01:06:32] Which is why they brought the actor back after resuscitating her, because they felt bad. I mean, everybody knows that. I mean... Well, we have two more callers tonight. Let's go ahead and hear from Michi. Hi, guys. This is Michi, and here are my thoughts about the episode Project Daedalus. Damn. That ending. That was so hard. I better not talk about the ending. Admiral Cornwell is back.

[01:06:59] I love her character, and her friendship with Pike is played so well in this episode. How easily she disarms him during their discussion about the mines, by reminding him that he's Starfleet's boy scout. The reactions of the bridge crew, their small smiles, showing that they stand 100% behind him and his values. What a great scene. Although there are many great lines in this episode, my favorite quote is from Spock.

[01:07:28] Failure is liberating. Such strong and true words, and delivered perfectly. Perfectly. And there we are. And that scene with Tilly on the bridge, where she knew something was wrong with her, and she asked Tilly to stay. That was so heartbreaking. I mean, it was clear from the moment when they showed her memories in the beginning that she's about to die in this episode. But it was still so hard to watch.

[01:07:56] And Pike, so calmly giving the order to kill her, he knew what has to be done. But you can see the pain that causes him to give this order. Right. I didn't want to talk about the ending, so I guess I better stop here. Have a nice day. Bye. Thank you so much, because we have not brought up that moment yet where Arium asks Tilly to stay there, because she clearly knows something's going on, but not quite what.

[01:08:23] That is a really good moment and a moment from this episode I love. Yes. Yep. And I will say that the chess scene was ham-fisted, but I'll agree, I liked the line, failure is liberating. I really liked the sentiment of that and how it was presented, but man, who would they have to slog through a bunch of turds to get to that decent line? I hate the chess scene that much, just Spock and I did. Spocky, but... You know, as somebody who's never failed, I'm going to have to take Spock's word for

[01:08:52] that, but I appreciate seeing human characters deliver human power. And emotions like that, even if they're only half human in canon. And at the very end of this episode, since we are talking about the ending, this is where I realized, no, this is just the Matrix and Terminator in Star Trek, because the way Arium's visual display blinks out is 100% Terminator.

[01:09:20] Like, system failure, long white line, and then a little circle dot, boom! Like, I could see her metaphorical thumb sticking out of the space lava as she sank. I really, really liked it. I mean, there's even minds kind of shaped like squids, like there were in the Matrix. It's the Matrix, and Terminator had an evil space baby, and it went to live in Star Trek. And that, I think, is what I like so much about this episode.

[01:09:49] On top of all the other great stuff that I've already mentioned that Cam doesn't like. Like the chess scene. Space net. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I think, and this might piss off some people, but fuck it, I think it was better than The Matrix and Terminator. Like, her floating and having that memory showing in her eyes and then like glitching out as she's also just freezing over in space.

[01:10:18] Like, that, to me, was the most realistic, what I think, depiction of death would be like. And it creeped me the fuck out. Like, it was like, yeah, there's probably just something. Like, if you die like a kind of slowish death that isn't just like instant, or even if it is instant, and it's just your brain shutting down, and there could just be something going

[01:10:48] on in your head, just some memory that is really important to you. Or it could be the last thing that you remembered before this even happened, and it's just fading out and disintegrating into nothing. Yeah. That creeped me out big time. And I was like, that's to me, before I even thought about it, was just what I always thought death would be like. Yeah.

[01:11:13] And I think it's a great parallel for kind of a lot of the messaging in this episode, which is like, I mean, like Pike is yelling at Cornwell, like, we have to hold on to our humanity. We need to stick to the rules that make us good at what we do. You know, and then you see Arium desperately trying to keep her grasp on all these memories from before this all started happening to her. Like, she wants Tilly there physically next to her.

[01:11:42] She's talking to Tilly over the radio. She's trying to tell Michael, like, please, I promise I will kill you if you let me. Yeah. Like her voice cracking, you know? Yeah, exactly. It's like, you have this character under all these prosthetics who we know is half robot, which is a line I loved from Tilly. And she is demonstrating so much humanity and so much emotion through all of that, that it just works.

[01:12:09] And I agree with you 100%, Vernon. Like, as far as dying robots go, this has got to be like top two, maybe number one on the list. Like, as, and as far as killing a member of the bridge crew, I mean, I kind of feel like Frakes had something to prove. Like, you know, last time he was around for that, it was not handled at all the way it is here. I mean, it's, I would say it's just a shocking in its, you know, immediacy and brutality

[01:12:38] with Yars was like, nope, she's dead. But, but it's like, I bet, I think he, he really wanted to make sure it was done right. And it is done right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I almost don't wonder why Arium can control her mouth, but not the rest of her body. Um, that was, there's a lot of questions about Arium. She's not completely a robot. She's been artificially enhanced. Control can only control so much of her. It seems like her whole face is pretty enhanced, but, um.

[01:13:07] Yeah, but the rest of her is like completely under control of the AI. Sure. Um, I did, and again, this is trope. I'm not, it's not a big ding, but did it feel out of character for Captain Pike to be like, nope, you got an airlocker? Do it, do it, Burnham? No, because he knew the stakes. Because I feel like we've seen him do the Burnham thing other times. Like, we will not leave someone behind. We have, but he knows the stakes. Like. Yeah.

[01:13:34] The needs of the many here, Cameron, outweigh the needs of the few or the Arium. Because. Also, yeah, he didn't make the announcement, no one dies today. He's like, shit, I knew I forgot to say something. Should have said that when we set out. I guess someone dies today, yeah. I'm trying to remember his reaction with Hammer. He was not present. I believe he was on the bridge of the Cayuga, wasn't he? Yeah. Or no. He wasn't at. Not the Cayuga, sorry, the Peregrine. The Peregrine, yes. Don't at me.

[01:14:04] And he was like, nope, it's gotta happen. Right. But I feel like we've seen, like, Pike be like, nope, I, you know, we know, I know that this is a long shot, but we never leave someone behind. He's a big fan of lost causes, which is something we know from earlier in the season. But, again, I think having the crew piece it together puts it in perspective for him. Like, look, Arium is ready to go here, right?

[01:14:32] Like, she is asking for us to prevent this terrible thing from happening. And she herself knows that the only way to do that is to airlock her. He also knows the only way to get Spock a spot on the bridge is if somebody, you know. It's nepotism. That's like, okay. That I accept. That I accept. That's at least realistic. Yeah. What were you gonna say, Vernon?

[01:14:59] Oh, well, I was gonna say that he actually kind of does do it again later, but that's a few episodes from now. I forgot. Oh, yeah. I've watched him more. Now, you're good. We've talked a lot about Cornwell tonight, and I think deservedly so. She's a great character. A lot of people, I remember when Strange New Worlds started, they were like, oh, they brought that Cornwell character back when they saw Captain Battelle. We talked about that, yeah. No, that is not the same character. They just have brown hair.

[01:15:27] That's the only thing they have in common with each other. Like, nothing else about these characters is the same. Yeah. All right. We have one last caller tonight, and then we'll get to our song picks for this episode. Here is Steve, maybe? Hello, open park night. This is Gaius Bautau from the Battlestage Theatric. As some of you might know, I'm quite partial to ladies of her synthetic nature. Therefore, I felt appropriate to call in and express my love for Lieutenant Commander Arium

[01:15:57] and the sacrifice she made for the Discovery crew. It's a shame we don't get to know her better before commanding on Blue Roo out of now, Locke. Seems to happen quite a lot, no matter what sci-fi universe we're in. That's true. Well, it seems to me everyone has this particular AI uprising all sewn up. I think I'll pop back over to my universe and help start another one. Save. Save another one. I meant save. Of course. Who would start one? Certainly not I. Oh.

[01:16:26] Oh, cheerio. So, spoiler alert. But I will point out, Cameron, he's not even from the Star Trek universe and he got the name of the Discovery right. Boom. He is not wrong. They airlock people all the damn time on that. Spoilers, you guys. Come on. There's whole arcs about that. Yeah. Season long. Yeah. Oh, thank you, Steve. Thank you, guys. Dr. Baltar.

[01:16:55] And somebody else from the Star Trek universe, but I won't mention who right now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Let's talk about real quick before we wrap things up. The title of the episode. Mm-hmm. Project Daedalus. First of all, when I first saw it, I was like, oh, yeah. Does anyone else remember the Daedalus project? The Daedalus encounter? It was like an old interactive movie style game starring Tia Carrera where you play like

[01:17:22] a space marine and you end up on an alien just a year. It was a PC game, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I played that. I played it like the same time I was playing Descent. Mm-hmm. And yeah, SimCity 2000. Yeah. Yeah. I forgot Tia Carrera was in that. Yeah. Man. Tia Carrera. Anyway. Wayne's World. The word named Daedalus always makes me think of that. That's fused in my head. But I mean, it's a weird title for this episode because this episode's not about the Daedalus project at all. It's just the cliffhanger at the end.

[01:17:51] Wasn't it a ship too in Star Trek? The Daedalus? Yeah, it was. I think the Daedalus class is the big dumb ball. It's like the round one with the, yeah. Now that we're getting the name and I'm remembering the name and now that I know who the Red Angel is, I'm like, oh, geez. It was right there. They were telling us all along that it's Michael that because Daedalus created the wings and it's Daedalus' son, Icarus, who flew too close to the sun. Mm-hmm. So it's probably the daughter.

[01:18:17] And Stamets is like right there by saying, why did the angel choose you? I wouldn't just pick some random Vulcan if I were the Daedalus. But yeah, Cameron, I was like, oh, they're clearly referencing the skillful architect and craftsman seen as a symbol of wisdom, knowledge, and power. Mm-hmm. Like, clearly, that's, yeah. Yeah. We should also put that together. Yeah. It's right there. I know. Rewatching this season, I'm like, man, they really were setting up, they really were foreshadowing

[01:18:46] and I did not pick it up on my first watch of this series. Yeah. They leave a lot of breadcrumbs that do not get picked up. But so that's a, and that's like the only question, even remotely close to like credit that I'll give to Cameron's argument here, which is if they foreshadowed it this much and none of us picked it up. Hmm. Did they do a great job of foreshadowing it? Or does it, or is it effective?

[01:19:12] Because when you think about it again, you go, oh my God, it was all right there. Like, is that effective? Yeah. Or has it failed in some way? Oh, for the Michael reveal, I think it's effective. I think they did the right amount of foreshadowing. Okay. Yeah. But for stuff like Control and Section 31 and the Admirals and Arium, it needed more. All right. Well, let's go ahead and put together our own little project data list by being skillful

[01:19:36] architects and craftsmen of a wonderful playlist to go along with Star Trek Discovery Season 2. Why don't we? Let's. All right. Jesse, you haven't started in a while. Well, we had a little bit of a conversation online today about our picks. I'm so grateful. Can I throw out my guess? I don't think you picked this. Can you write it down on a card in case you're correct? And then. Yes. And then you can hold it up. Because we don't trust him.

[01:20:05] Well, because if he gets it right, it kind of takes the steam out of everything I'm about to say. So. I don't, I don't think I'm right. I just have a yes based on how we were talking earlier, but. Okay. I knew John would have writing utensils nearby. He's a very studious person. Okay. All right. He's got it. I can't read it, but here we go.

[01:20:30] So rather than a song this week, I have brought a poem by one of my favorite American poets. His name is Zacharias Manuel de la Rocha. And the poem is called Killing in the Name, which he released with his band Rage Against the Machine. Because this episode, as I mentioned, is kind of like the Matrix and Terminator in which people are raging against the machine. That's what I wrote down.

[01:20:59] To the, damn it, Vernon. Thunderstolen. But true to the lyrical content of the song. Like, yes, the song is very specifically about American police brutality, et cetera. But thematically, it's about hiding behind a badge and using your authority to do harm. And that is the essence of what Section 31 is.

[01:21:26] They hide behind their sleek black badge. They do harm, supposedly in the name of the greater good. It fits so well. And now you're under control. And so they do what they told you gets repeated 18 times in this song. And finally, at the very end, Arium is able to break through and say, fuck you. I won't do what you tell me.

[01:21:52] And that, to me, is the reason I listened to nine Rage Against the Machine songs last night before I went to bed. Excellent. Awesome. My guess was not correct. I figured Living Dead Girl by Rob Zombie. So here's an interesting thing, John. I don't really like Rob Zombie. I was like, I don't think it's White Zombie. I don't. Yeah. Fair pick. But yeah.

[01:22:21] For me, what he did to the Halloween franchise tainted all the music. But anyways. All right. Vernon, what was your pick this week? Mine was Yours Truly 2095 by the Electric Light Orchestra from their album Time. I'm a bit like, despite being a 90s punk rock kid, I am huge into ELO.

[01:22:47] And yeah, the Time album is like this concept album about time travel and stuff. But that song is about like, at least I always took it as like someone who traveled through time to the future from the 80s and falls in love with a robot that reminds him of the girl he left behind. And so Arium is the robot. And we're all the time travelers because we're from the 20th century. And then she's our robot girl in the future.

[01:23:16] And her brain's in IBM, like the lyrics say. And there's even like some female vocaloid robotic voice work going on. And so, yeah. That's a good choice. This is a really great choice. I'm going to listen to it. Yeah. I'm like, man, I don't know if ELO has, it's never crossed my mind for any of these episodes. And I just, I pulled up the lyrics because I have also not heard it. But like the first thing that jumps out at me is she has an IQ of 1001.

[01:23:46] She has a jumpsuit on. Like, oh my God, it's written about this episode. You're totally right, Vernon. Great pick. Great pick. Absolutely. I'm going with like a song that talks about Arium. I don't care about the rest of it. Like, obviously this is Arium's episode. So the song pick I felt had to be about Arium. And with lyrics, like, you know, she's hitting like a hammer. You know, like the sound Sonequa Martin-Green was making as she got punched.

[01:24:16] It's like, yeah, that's Arium. She's a juvenile scam. Kind of accurately describes, you know, what's going on. Like, yeah, it's a young AI trying to get some new AI information. Never was a quitter. Arium has been blown up in a shuttle. Arium has been, she's been fighting through, you know, the control of control. And then we get to see her memory, you know, loving is the ocean. Kissing is the wet sand.

[01:24:45] Like, obviously this is about Arium. And then she tells Michael, everything I'll ever do, I'll do for you about control. But really, when I was looking at her flashback of her elopement, I thought, what in the world can make this brown eyed girl turn blue? And so I had to go with the look by Roxette. Because, I mean, she's got the look. Every time control takes over, she's got the look. And who blows her out the airlock?

[01:25:15] Na, na, na, na, na. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. And then she ends once again with, she's got the look, because Tilly gives her her last look at her favorite memory in her last day as a human. Wow. Yeah, John. I thought I was going to win this, but. He alluded in the Discord to he may be going to hell for his song choice, but that doesn't make it a bad song choice. I agree completely. Well, I have a special ring for that, but it's a good ring.

[01:25:47] So before I do my pick, I'll runner up, and I sometimes, I'll use, maybe fittingly for this episode, I'll go to chat GBT and kind of dummy check myself and be like, hey, I need a song with these themes. What am I forgetting? And this time I was like, you know, emphasize songs by David Bowie, Gary Neumann, emphasize synth wave and new wave. And I want it to be a song I like, but I was like, and give me like one or two wild cards. And one of the wild cards it gave me was a total eclipse of the heart, which I almost used. It's real good.

[01:26:17] It's real good for this. Oh my God. First. Yeah. That lyric. But I just want to give you what, cause I was like, Hey, chat G or Archie. That's why I named my chat GBT. That's a really good pick. It goes. Thanks. Yada. Yada. Even the crescendo and breakdowns and total eclipse of the heart match the pacing of the episode. Chaotic, uneven, yet somehow hitting the right emotional beats at just the right moments. It's like a power ballad version of a malfunctioning script, which makes it all the more fitting. That part was in bold. And I was like, you almost told me there. Chat GBT.

[01:26:47] I think that's just a description that you wrote and said was from chat GPT is what it sounds like. I did tell it my feelings on the episode. And I was like, give me a, give me a pick, a pick that would fit that. But I did not go with that. Actually, I was inspired by you guys. Cause in the discord, you were talking about song titles with the word control in them.

[01:27:07] Uh, and the one that popped into my head is she's lost control by joy division with lyrics like confusion in her eyes. That says it all in her eyes. She's lost control. And she gave away the secrets of her past. She gave away her memories and said, I've lost control again. And to the voice that told her where, when and where to act, she said, I've lost control again. So depending on the lyric that always ends with, I've lost control.

[01:27:35] It could be she's lost control of herself or she's been able to get rid of control and regain control. So I just think it's a really good pick. It's joy division, which I love. I could hear this playing throughout the fight. Um, so I'm happy with she's lost control. Yeah. And I'm glad you didn't go with what AI suggested. I'm just already mad that you used AI to come up with this. That just feels so evil. Especially for this episode. This episode.

[01:28:05] I mean, but we all know, I mean, if any one of us is evil, it's going to be Cameron to me. I do have a lab. Two questions, Cameron. Have you seen the movie control about Ian Curtis of joy division? I have seen it. Yes. More importantly, I think, have you seen 24 hour party people? Oh man. Uh, I don't think I actually have. I know. I've got to watch it. It is. It is a movie that a friend of mine who was a huge, huge joy, joy division fan sat

[01:28:34] me down and was like, you got to watch this. It's got Steve Coogan in it. And I'm like, okay, don't know who that is. And he goes, Andy circuses in it. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll watch this. It is incredibly weird, but like a very good movie. Highly recommend. I thought you were going to ask. Did you realize who Coogan was when you saw him? No movie. Like, oh, oh, yeah. Once I saw his face, I was like, oh, that guy who's been in those other three movies you forced me to watch. I actually, I used to live with the king of the hipsters.

[01:29:03] So I've seen quite a few Steve Coogan movies. I thought you were going to ask if I'd seen the literal music video for total. Which yes, as many times as I can. And I was going to kind of, that was going to be one of my meta reasons for choosing it because that music video makes about as much sense as this episode, but that's Bonnie Gordon, right? Yes. Bonnie Tyler. Sorry. No, Bonnie Tyler. Sorry.

[01:29:30] Well, that's, that's one of the more interesting song choice segments we've had so far this season. I really like that. Yeah. That was eclectic and I love it. Man. Vernon, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thanks for having me. Please tell people where they can find your work, where they can see your art, where they can, uh, where they can follow you. Um, I'm Vernon draws on most socials. Pretty much the only ones I regularly post on, which isn't even as often as I should are

[01:29:59] blue sky and Instagram. So yeah. Okay. Before we wrap things up though, do we have a special, uh, uh, call to listen to? Oh, we do. We do. We had a secret spy on the Star Trek cruise send us a little sneak peek. Apparently, uh, speaking of the director of this episode, Jonathan Frakes must be a fan of ours because he, uh, interviewed Celia Rose Gooding and Melissa Navia on the Star Trek cruise recently.

[01:30:27] Uh, and the, the first part was cut off. So he asked them, maybe you've heard this question before. What's a one word tease for season three of strange new world. We invented it. Let's hear what they said. Frakes are fearless. I'll say intimate. Oh, okay. All right. I thought you were going to do the three word thing. They always ask me the three word thing and I'm always like strange new worlds.

[01:30:57] Those are my three words. Um, but no, my word, I would just say, I would say brave, brave. Yes. Brave. Yeah. You brave, intimate women. Can I give a spoiler that I heard or would that not be allowed? I don't know. Are you allowed to give a spoiler for season three? Ooh. I say, go for it. And then we'll decide if it's something we can include. Then we decided we have it.

[01:31:24] So it was, it was at the Star Trek Dallas convention a few months ago and at Navia's table, people were saying, we want more viewers, you know, the whole more tag is thing as you guys know. And she said, you'll be very happy with season three. Ah, we could. Bill Wolkoff has given us the one word tease of more. So we, we, we know to expect more from her.

[01:31:53] If we don't get an Ortega centered episode, we actually riot. So everybody take note. Oh yeah. Three seasons in and we don't get that. Yeah. Like I'm, I am, you guys, I'm, I'm bleeding for it. I'm gagging for it. Like how much longer do we have to wait? We're going to hit our 44th post season two episode of open pike night. There are 20 episodes. We're going to hit a hundred episodes of open pike night before strangely worlds hits 21 episodes.

[01:32:23] Yes, we are. Which is how you know that this is the strange new worlds podcast where your personal logs are the prime directive and it is the place to be for strange new worlds. But I also want to say if you were ever at a convention and you want to report back, whether it's something, just an experience you had something you heard from one of the guests, we will broadcast that out to all the strange new world fans out there.

[01:32:49] So send them our way and we'll play, play your, your spy craft. Yeah, exactly. And Jesse, if he folks want to get ahold of us, how can they do that? Easiest way for folks to get ahold of us is just to go to open pike.com. You can record your message right there. You don't even need to send us an email. Although if you prefer to send an email, you should send it to open pike at gmail.com. And of course, if you're just looking for a place online to see links to a lot of other

[01:33:18] Star Trek podcasts that I personally really like, then you should follow us on blue sky at open pike. We'll also throw up some memes and occasionally disagree about some stuff. And Cam. Oh man. Where can folks find you if you are not on the open pike night stage? Yeah, I'm over just being done being the green shirt. Having finished all of TNG. We've got some exciting episodes. Please go listen to our top 25 TNG collaborative draft episode.

[01:33:48] You may, you will have strong feelings about our final list, but it will be a joy to listen to. I promise. I've gotten more interaction on sharing that list than I have on any other green shirt link I've ever shared from people who have never interacted. Like old high school friends are like, wrong. Your list is wrong. That's good. It's good for engagement. So please. No, I mean, it was a really fun episode. You should go check it out.

[01:34:14] Uh, I mean, just Marcy's narrative arc on that. Uh, I'm not having fun anymore. It's a Marcy episode. Like we're talking about wanting an Ortegas episode. This was a Marcy episode of green shirt. This was a Marcy's area. Um, so please listen to that. And we are about to jump into the movies and I expect that to be a lot of fun too. So, uh, come join us over there at green shirts at 87 on Twitter, green shirt podcasts

[01:34:43] on blue sky and all the other socials. Oh, well, it has been a long night and we've had a great time with Vernon Smith and all of our collars. Uh, we have to go and blow ourselves out an airlock now. So be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want, but go to project Daedalus.