PRIME DIRECTION - "A Case of Chiaroscuro" with Meera Menon

[00:00:00] This is Meera Menon and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction, where you will learn that television production isn't always black and white, even when it is. Is this thing on? Hello? Hello?

[00:00:35] Hello and welcome to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction, where we ask the directors of Strange New Worlds to shed some light on the darkest corners of your favorite episodes. I'm your host, Cameron Harrison, private interviewer. I ask questions. Sometimes people answer them. Every PI needs a partner. I met mine in a dark alley, full of steam, and decided to start a podcast with him. Jesse Bailey.

[00:00:58] I'm very excited about this. I'm also not well-versed in noir, so let me just say, of all the gin joints, I don't know the rest of that quote. Our other partner, John, who wouldn't know the rest of that quote, went missing a few nights ago. All we found was a suspiciously sealed cryo tube and a waylaid ID card. But here, tonight, we were sitting at our desks when her silhouette fell across our stream yard screen.

[00:01:24] The type of woman who would make you stop dead in your tracks by calling cut. She had a story to tell, and we had 45 minutes, minus the time it took to give Chrome permission to access her microphone. The director of A Case of Kiara Skuro, Mira Menon! Hi guys, that was really good. My goodness. Oh. Yeah. Anytime I can play in the noir-y field. See, I mean, I've been waiting for this episode for decades, Mira. Oh, you don't do that for every episode. Okay. Oh, no, no, no, no. No.

[00:01:53] You might see a Kermit on the back screen that might make an appearance next week. Oh, my God. I'm really excited to see that episode. That was like, yeah, people were very, very much in the weeds of prepping that episode even while I was doing my episode, because that was a big one for the show, I think. That must have been a very jarring juxtaposition, this episode with all of that mayhem happening next door.

[00:02:18] I mean, that's what's so special about this show, right? Is that every episode, and Chris Fisher is the producing director on his dear friend and mentor, like just always saying that every episode on Strange New Worlds is its own movie. And I think that's really true.

[00:02:32] Well, kind of to that point, Strange New Worlds, we have found, chooses their directors very carefully and specifically. Now checking your filmography, I saw like it spans so many genres, Mira, many of which would fit nicely into this episode. What do you think led to you landing this gig?

[00:02:53] Well, it's kind of a question for Chris and Henry in some ways, because I, you know, I've worked for them a couple of times on another show that they spearheaded the magicians. I did a few episodes of that show.

[00:03:05] And, you know, I'm sure there's several reasons they paired me with this episode. Certainly the kind of strong female protagonist and the journey that Una goes through in terms of her own kind of like stepping into her sense of like unique leadership with the perspective that she has and the kind of backstory she brings into understanding what the people on this planet are going through in this episode.

[00:03:28] I think that probably had something to do with it, but not just being a woman. I think, you know, just my sensibility of drama and kind of the, I guess, one of the words that comes to mind is that noir is a very elegant genre. Like, I think it requires subtlety and nuance and also a sense of restraint almost. And I think those are some things that maybe I bring to the table. But, you know, these are just conjecture. It's really a question for those guys.

[00:03:56] I'm really just grateful I got to do it because I know it's going to be a special one. Absolutely. And their track record for picking directors is very impressive. And I think we can safely say their streak is unbroken. How familiar were you with Star Trek in general when you were hired? And did you have to do a little bit of homework after you were?

[00:04:21] I definitely did some homework. Yeah. I mean, you know, I had, I was like an enthusiastic, but, you know, casual fan, you know, like I, the most recent kind of relationship I had with it is my daughter had been born just, I had my first child had been born just a few years earlier. And during my kind of maternity leave of just like being at home and nesting, like, you know, Star Trek Next Generation was definitely like our comfort watch and my nighttime feeding watch.

[00:04:45] And like just the watch that like I kept very close to me as a source of just like reminding myself that like there is a lot to be hopeful about. You know, I think there's like a kind of core hope that like the, you know, various iterations of the show always kind of harness their storylines on. And I think that that's one of those things that's getting harder and harder to find in the world and definitely even on TV.

[00:05:09] And I think that's what this iteration of the show does so well is there's such a joy in it and there's such a kind of core hope, you know, that kind of it harnesses at its premise. And yeah, so I think as a, as someone who's, as we all do struggles to kind of hold on to that in this world, it's, it's definitely a North Star. But yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:29] I mean, I had to do more of a deep dive, more kind of educate myself on more recent Star Trek's this one and Discovery and, you know, Glenn, the DP who, who, who shot this episode, who I really think is the hero of the episode's execution. If it's like succeeding on levels that the fans really appreciate, I think he's the one to really look to, to say like why it does. And he, he shot a bunch of Discovery.

[00:05:52] So, you know, I like educated myself on, on the way these guys have been approaching this kind of version of Star Trek as soon as I got the job for sure. Well, let's jump to Glenn a little bit because the writers did say this was like a passion project of his and I can certainly understand and see why. What was it like working with him on achieving this, this very specific style?

[00:06:13] Well, I think he was just so excited about it that it was just, you know, you should, we all just kind of, I think piggybacked off of his enthusiasm to, because I think it's such a, it's such a gift for any filmmaker, but for a cinematographer, it's such a challenge to figure out how, I mean, to be expressive when like an entire layer of your canvas is removed.

[00:06:34] You know, when the color is removed, you know, it's really, it really presents you, I think, with like a new set of challenges of how to make a shot and an image dynamic and interesting. So, but he was like art, like 10 steps ahead of me by the time I joined, he'd already been thinking about this as had been like a, yeah, a dream and a passion of his for a long time to shoot an episode like this.

[00:06:56] And so, yeah, a lot of like my prep time with him was watching him really dial in what the look was and, you know, all the prosthetics, all the visual effects, everything that the show requires would be able to hold up to an image that was completely, completely removed of color. So were you able to see the black and white effect on the monitor while filming or was that done entirely in post?

[00:07:21] Yeah. All the, the monitors on set all were only fed the black and white image. We never had the color to, to compare it to, which was great because I mean, you don't, there's so many things you can't anticipate unless you actually like see it in front of you, like how a costume is going to read, how the aesthetics, how the Klingons are going to look, you know, like just what, what are you going to see, you know, once you actually remove color.

[00:07:47] So like no one was looking, we were just like all completely like tuned into the black and white image. We, none of us had a color image to, to compare it to on set. And I think that was really important that we had just removed that kind of option from our optics, I guess.

[00:08:04] That's really cool. I mean, it seems like it would also help as you're saying, like, if you need to make an adjustment, then you're not considering, you know, two layers of it. You're just considering how does it look now in the monitor. That's, that's really cool.

[00:08:18] Because it's such a disconnect. Like if you guys saw like the, and there is, I think BTS of like the actual costumes, like what they looked like on set, like the color palette was wild. It was like all over the map and like, it works in black and white. But like, if you, if you switched on the color, you would have been like, this is like absolutely wacky what people are wearing.

[00:08:37] I believe the writer said it was green wasn't used in place of silver, like to achieve silver. Bernadette would put green on the costume. Was that also in like the set design and painting as well? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was really in costume that it was like the most like apparent to us. Like what Ahura is wearing and what, no, what Mabenga is wearing is like, yeah, like a bright green. And it just, yeah, on black and white reads this, this really subtle shade of gray.

[00:09:07] And yeah, it would be like a kind of crazy, like, what's what? Like an LSD trip. It sounds like. Like an LSD. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like pink elephants on parade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen the behind the scenes photos, but I can't wait to see those because I do love that. I wonder if they'll release them. Yeah. Because it's really fascinating to see like what, what actually, what would it look like in color versus black and white?

[00:09:31] Right. Well, I understand if the internet is to be believed that you're married to a cinematographer. Did that help you kind of working in this very stylistic lighting and cinematography world and your conversations with Glenn? I mean, it always, it helps me like to the extent that I understand where DPs are coming from because I live with one just like that they are artists.

[00:09:53] Like the way I work with performers is like the same way I work with department heads. They are all performing in a way, you know, like they are all expressing something in the moment and to allow space for that and to hear them out and to give them the space to do what they do best. And then just kind of like calibrate things to the spine of the story that I've been handed by the writers is central to the job.

[00:10:18] So, yeah, I mean, I think being married to a DP has like probably helped me understand them a bit more in that way. Useful skill. I can, yeah, I can kind of picture you on set like leave the DP alone. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I definitely don't micromanage. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's not, I think the gig in general, but I think it's really important to let people that are, you know, hired to do their job, do their job, you know?

[00:10:47] Yeah. So the writers talked about the film Metropolis being a huge visual reference for them. Did you have any other sources of inspiration for your approach to this?

[00:10:59] Well, I just remember there was a lot of conversation during prep about, again, what noir really means and wanting to be very careful to not make it an aesthetic choice that was driven by the time period in which film noir became popular in American cinema in the 1930s and 1940s. Because this wasn't a time travel episode that, you know, and that episode from the original series was brought up over and over again.

[00:11:27] The one where Spock and Kirk go to like 1930s depression era New York and wanting to be very clear that this was not that, you know, that this was a film noir influenced and black and white planet, but that this was very much sci-fi and in the world of the show and contemporary to the world of the show.

[00:11:48] And so we really thought about, yeah, Metropolis and science fiction and Blade Runner really was like the kind of cyberpunk noir was really more of the North Star we landed on as a way to talk about it and to avoid falling into the trap that these were, the reality of this planet exists like outside of like that knowledge of 1940s American cinema, you know?

[00:12:14] Was the decision to keep the scenes aboard the Enterprise in black and white kind of part of that to kind of tie the modernity of the setting into the visual? Yeah, yeah. I think that was baked in when I got there. They had like gone back and forth on that, but I think it was really important to keep like once the kind of rules of this episode were established to not dip in and out of that to just be really consistent with it throughout.

[00:12:42] Because then again, like the way the episode ends, like that kind of the way that's gradually lifted, like has its impact because you've been in it for the whole episode. I completely agree with that. It really reminded me of the last shot of La Jetée when you get the blink instead of just the still image. I was like, okay, this is washing over you now. Like that was, it was very impactful. So well done.

[00:13:09] Was it challenging to do those Enterprise scenes specifically? Because I mean, down on the planet, you were able to create that to look like that noir world, but the Enterprise is kind of designed to not be that, to not have shadows. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I honestly think it was just a nice welcome departure for the crew and the cast because they just photographed those sets so many times, you know, that like to just do something different was welcome.

[00:13:36] I'm trying to think of like what sets like the, like, I think the lab, for example, like was a set that probably was flattened a little bit by having to do it in black and white because it's so dynamically built to be able to experience all these different like textures and lights and like different kind of things that somewhat didn't read in black and white. But I think that is, again, like that's leaning into, it was just about not doing half measures, you know, just leaning into it fully.

[00:14:03] I want to jump back to what you're saying about like the futuristic style, because I think one of the things I was really impressed with this episode is you get that Art Deco style fused so well with the Strange New World style, but Strange New Worlds is already a 60s style fused with a modern style. Like, did you, was there a challenge in finding that specific aesthetic or did it kind of come together relatively naturally? Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:14:31] I mean, I think, I think that's just natural to the show. Yeah. I mean, I think they just like, it's just in line with the tone of what they already do so well in the show, which is like exactly that finding that really kind of like well curated balance of it feeling like a throwback, but also feeling very modern. Hmm. So they'd already been doing that. So it wasn't too much of a struggle to do it with a different decade. No, to calibrate that. No, I don't think so.

[00:14:58] I think, yeah, I think that it's, it's really a credit to, to the showrunners and to the writers and to the producers of the show that like they, I think have always been able to walk that line really well. So on this gorgeous planet, we have this very cool, like Metropolis style set. I was often reminded of Gotham from the animated Batman series.

[00:15:23] Is the city outside the windows a digital asset on the volume stage or was that post-production? So basically the volume stage was the cafe. Any scene that took place in the cafe. Oh, really? Yeah. Anything you saw out the windows of that cafe was a digital asset. Yeah. And so that's what the kind of centerpiece I'd say of the episode was that cafe, much like, you know, Rick's cafe in Casablanca with the piano at its centerpiece.

[00:15:51] It was, it was the set that was determined to be the volume set for that episode. And, you know, the show and Chris Fisher, who like is so knowledgeable on how to use this effectively, the show among many shows that I've done as I think really figured out how, how to use that technology in a way that's smart and kind of actually services the centerpiece of every episode. And they all, the writers also write to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:20] And you're, you're right. I mean, Chris Fisher literally wrote the book on how to do production with the volume stage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I just pre-ordered it today, actually. Oh, nice. Yes. Like, you know, the beauty of working like that is that you're really in the world for everyone, for the actors and, you know, just being able to actually see what you're going to see is such a blessing. Instead of staring into blue. For sure.

[00:16:50] What about the street scenes? Where were those filmed? Was that a set that was built or was that a location? That was a location. The street scenes were, I'm just trying to think of like what it was. It was, it was a factory. It was basically a factory. But I would love to remember what it was because it was like an abandoned factory. Okay. Maybe a steam factory where they used to just bake steam because there is so much steam in those scenes.

[00:17:48] Yeah. Like maybe two steps forward and come entirely into focus while the background is still blurred out. Like, was there, was there any, any part of you that was like, here are the list of classic noir shots. I want to do them all. Oh, no. I mean, I think the kind of, yeah, kind of stepping into a reveal is very third man. Right.

[00:18:09] Like, but like, I feel these tropes are kind of used across the board and all noirs, you know, like, but I, yeah, I do feel like the elegance of like not too much camera movement, but allowing the kind of the world to move within the frame and reveal itself through like light and shadow and, and the theatricality of that. You know, I think that, you know, I think that is all very consistent with the genre across the board.

[00:18:36] And so I think that was, it was about using, you know, what feels kind of generally recognizable to the genre. And I think that that kind of approach to camera movement and an actor movement, the way like actors and the camera kind of are in dialogue with each other. That was really, I think what defined those moments.

[00:18:55] I think it's a genre that also lends itself to restriction, you know, because you can kind of choose what you see and what you don't see in any given moment and let the things that aren't looking great kind of fall off and really kind of prioritize the things that are. Kind of to that point. I mean, this is a noir that deals with some dark themes and complicated characters and shades of gray.

[00:19:21] But it's also a bit of a pastiche of noir and we get those fun, like dramatic turns and over the top performances from some people. Like, how did you balance the tone of those two things of like having the fun with the genre, but also like staying true to those darker thematic roots? Yeah, again, I think that's in the writing and with the cast, they kind of are already there. They were already there so much.

[00:19:44] And I think the costume really like brought out, like, I think a kind of a sense of movement and play for all of them, for Rebecca, for Babs and for Celia. I mean, Celia in particular, like her costumes were so fabulous. And I think it just like she didn't with the cape that she had on. She just kind of moved differently once she had that costume on, you know, and it's such a departure. It was such a departure for all of them, for Rebecca with the hat and Babs with that hat.

[00:20:14] I was just like, I feel like he was like born with that hat or something. It was just like, it just like suited his kind of coolness and his character and his energy so well. So, you know, it's like such a credit to the writers to have chosen also those actors to be the kind of central players in disguise in this episode. Yeah, but I mean, Bernadette's like, that is the thing. The costumes, I think, did so much of this work of like helping the actors find that tone.

[00:20:42] And then, yeah, in terms of like grounding it versus those kind of like those big reveals or those twists and turns. Again, a lot of that is in the writing. But for me, it's like I don't really think about anything other than playing the moment as truthfully as possible. Okay. And so I think all the other layers that are on top of it, like are a tribute to like, again, the production design, the costume, the score and the way everything was put together and the tone of the show.

[00:21:12] But for me, it's always about trying to get in the moment with the actors, something that feels as real and earnest as possible. And that's what I love about even a show as stylized as this. There's still these really beautiful moments that are really sincere between the actors, you know, between Mabenga and Ahura. There's like several moments in the episode that are really about shared.

[00:21:39] I mean, about him sharing his trauma and trying to kind of educate her on how to survive in a lie, you know, how to actually be able to endure the things that she has to endure in the episode, the interrogation and the lie that she has to kind of sit behind.

[00:21:57] And just like those moments of sincere kind of connection and like human to human figuring out how to survive in these circumstances are there, you know, and the friendship and that kind of deepening bond between all three of them. Those are the moments that I really kind of hung on to, you know, because that's to me where, I mean, this show in particular, but I think in general, that's where scenes, you know, kind of take flight. So we have to talk about core in a moment.

[00:22:26] But before we get there, I do want to talk about this interrogation scene. You had mentioned subtlety and nuance and that sort of thing in your directing. And I have to ask, is there is that just an empty room with that lighting rig? Like we see almost nothing in there and it is maybe the most black and white, you know, part of the episode. So is that like just a room with a lighting rig in it and three actors standing there? Yeah, that's all it was.

[00:22:56] Just blacked off on all sides and just the lighting rig and some chairs and the cart with the mind scanner. Like that was all that was in there. Yeah. So it was like black box theater or something. You know, it was very cool. Well, you shot it so well. Like I love the moment at the end when Uhura is eavesdropping in on the Klingons. You don't really know that's happening yet. You don't find that out until a later scene.

[00:23:22] But on repeated rewatches, I was noticing like you move the camera behind objects on decor. So it's not Uhura's point of view, but like it's almost she's listening in. So visually we, the audience are kind of obscured from him. It was really nicely done. I also noticed with the mind scanner, the writers told us it came from a comic book. So I was just editing their episode and I was looking up a still image from the comic book.

[00:23:48] And I noticed the shot in the comic of the mind scanner is very similar to the shot you use when we come into the interrogation room. Did you intentionally pull that or is that a coincidence? Yeah, that's a coincidence. Yeah, I don't think we intentionally designed it that way. But because there's only so many ways to shoot that thing to make it feel like threatening. For sure. So maybe that's where the shared kind of just understanding of, yeah. It was the really high angle over the head shot of it. Yeah.

[00:24:17] There's probably so many ways to bring us into that black box room. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And really get the sense that, yeah, that it's like a weapon, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Now you were talking about how the clothes influenced the performances. So maybe you've kind of already answered this. But I was wondering, I was getting like some kind of, like the performances, the characters' performances were a little more noir-y this episode. Were you directing them to do that?

[00:24:46] Or was it more of like just all this around it making them feel that way?

[00:25:19] Yeah. And I was just like in it. I think that just lifted them into that sense of performance. And if anything, it was just about like making sure they didn't kind of go too far into some kind of, again, cosplay of like 1940s noir with any kind of like mid-Atlantic accent or kind of going full Catherine Hepburn or anything. You know, like I'm just wanting to make sure that they didn't go, but they didn't. You know, these are, they're all just such good actors.

[00:25:45] And that's what I really love about working in the genre in general whenever I get a chance to work in genre period. But like science fiction and fantasy, always like the actors that like get drawn into that material always end up being just like top level, top shelf kind of like really great actors because you need great actors to ground the kind of otherworldly, you know?

[00:26:10] And so, yeah, this is another show I think that really shows us that, that like great actors can really make these things believable. Yeah. And core, I mean, yeah, talk about the guy that plays core. Yeah. I mean, that is, I mean, like great example of just like a really great actor. Oh my gosh. So he definitely, I mean, he walks into an episode full of great actors and kind of steals the show here. Yeah.

[00:26:36] The writers had talked that said that he brought a lot of playfulness and even attraction to Una from his own experience. How is it working with him and finding his character, especially since he's a character that Star Trek fans will know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it was definitely like some, something that we felt like needed to land. But like the minute he got on set, he was one of the, in the, in the prep phase, Glenn was doing these like camera tests.

[00:27:06] He came and did the camera test because we wanted to make sure that with all the prosthetics and the makeup and the teeth and everything that like he, that all of it read in black and white. And from the minute he just stepped in front of the camera for the camera test and like showed us his teeth and did a little growl. Like we were like, oh my God, this guy is going to be perfect. And it was just really good. You know, like that's the thing we had the minute he started working.

[00:27:33] We were just like, we had nothing to worry about. He just really, we, yeah. And everyone instantly sensed it, that this was like going to be pretty special with him. So I do have to ask as a big nerd, were the metallic elements of Coors outfit, were they also that green tone that you talked about? Or was it like a brighter silver? Because we're used to seeing it in gold and you've managed to translate this bright gold into black and white. Yeah. I think it was silver.

[00:28:03] It's a good question. I mean, what's so funny is that, you know, you spend so much time, my memories are so much behind the monitor that I'm like trying to remember what the real lived version of him was. But I think it was silver. Is it, so you're on set and you're directing Rebecca and Celia and Babs and all the other great human actors. And then a troop of fascist Klingons walk on the stage.

[00:28:31] Do you kind of have to take a moment before you start commanding them around? Or what's that like on set? No, I mean, that's the thing. When you are in the world, you're just in the world, you know. For me, it was really about selling some of the hijinks around that.

[00:28:49] Like, actually, what comes to mind as you say that is like there's this one scene where like a Klingon is arresting a patron and the patrons secretly like pickpockets the Klingon for their ID and slips it to a resistance member. And I just remember there was so much conversation about how to choreograph that kind of thing and make it look real and make it look like it's happening in a way that the Klingons wouldn't notice. And we had all these different like ideas of how to do that.

[00:29:17] And at the end of the day, it just depended on having the right background actor who was going to play the patron and the right like kind of elements who was going to play like the server that actually got the card slipped. And like was the camera going to be able to move to like catch that action in a way that made it look like the Klingons wouldn't notice. And I mean, that's the choreography you're focusing on. You know, you're not like thinking about like the fact that this is an alien planet where Klingons have, you know, taken over.

[00:29:46] And yeah, I think that's what's the beauty about being in it is that you just kind of have to you're dealing with all of those realities and not having to convince yourself that this is like something that you have to pretend is happening. It is happening and you're having to make it feel real, you know, for the camera. So, yeah, no.

[00:30:09] And also, again, like he was so good that like he walked in, he just commanded that sense of authority in a way that just felt very real. Again, the good actors will make you feel like this stuff is very real. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So you talked about the cafe set and I mean, it is beautiful. Like it looks straight out of a noir film.

[00:30:35] Do you know, were you able to bring in some antique furniture or was that all built by the production? Because some of that stuff is like incredibly specific looking to a very specific time period. I mean, that's a question for Jonathan. Have you guys talked to the production designer on the show ever? We talked to him. We got to visit the set when they were filming season five and chatted with him then. But we still need to bring him on for an official interview. Yeah. He's very busy.

[00:31:05] He's yeah. I mean, because he's brilliant. I mean, between him and Glenn, it's just like, yeah, again, it's just about letting like people do what they do brilliantly. Like, you know, like and not getting in the way of it, especially when you direct these TV shows. It's like you're called a guest director for a reason. You have to you're a guest in someone else's house. And so in terms of how he put all that dressing together, I mean, that's I'm not sure where they sourced those pieces from. But yeah, I mean, it all felt super authentic and real.

[00:31:34] I mean, they even had like Matar. They had like and this is stuff we couldn't super focus on, but they had like playing cards and like the language of Matar, like on the tables and like games for like background actors to be playing that were like designed specifically in the language of this planet, you know, just for this episode. And so that, you know, that attention to detail is really the difference between something that's good and something that's great.

[00:32:03] In my opinion, in my experience with these shows. Well, and like you're saying, it sounds like they did so much to get you to where you don't have to think about not being in the reality of the shot. Like exactly. You're talking about trusting other people to do their job, and it sounds like they were able to just set everything up and then trust you to do your job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:26] I'm like, I'm even looking up right now the costume boards like that they sent me to like remember what the color of Kora's costume was, but I never got images that weren't black and white. You know, they like kept us so locked into just seeing these things in black and white. Exactly. So that like we didn't get distracted by like the way you get there. It just is about in the moments that I'm there to help like cook the meal.

[00:32:52] It's just about making what's happening in front of you feel as real as possible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love how you're talking about like trusting the departments to do what they're paid to do. That's their job. We've also heard that like the directors have said they get brought on to make their movie like this 45 to 50 minutes is your movie. What do you feel like you brought to it that you're really proud of?

[00:33:14] I think that sense of like, yeah, again, like elegance and that sense of subtlety, you know, because like the way these characters have to operate in a world where they're in disguise requires, you know, I think the fear is always that the stuff can come across a bit scooby doo.

[00:33:32] But I think, you know, in those moments and those twists and turns when Una realizes kind of like who she's being mistaken for and what's happening and the kind of various levels of disguise she's having to slip into. I think it's not something I'm proud of because it's like the actors that really did it. But like, I think understanding that that was the trick of the episode and the kind of the game of the episode were those like subtle kind of twists and turns.

[00:34:01] I remember Skylar and Dana saying early on that like this episodes in black and white because it's about Una like navigating like moral gray areas and like how to operate. And I love that, you know, I love the kind of idea that the aesthetic is not just there as a gimmick. It's actually like thematically supported by the story and what the characters are going through. And these are very honest people that are kind of being forced into this sort of this game of deception.

[00:34:28] And yeah, so I think for me, the thing I'm proudest of is just like kind of is understanding that that is what was there to support. And it was already it's already there and like kind of the talent of everyone around me. But like, I really appreciate that aspect of the story that I was that I was trusted with.

[00:34:47] Mm hmm. I think it also the the style lends itself not only to that story, but kind of the setting, you know, where it's like, I mean, a lot of people are going to look at this and say fascism bad. Like it's a very black and white choice that you make their fascism is bad and you should resist. Right. And you have her doing that, but it creates these shades of gray that she has to operate in.

[00:35:16] And it's I mean, thematically and visually, this has been one of my favorite episodes of the season. So to hear that it's not just me kind of assuming that that was applied is is wonderful to hear. Yeah. And what Mabenga says to her at the end, that there's no like perfect savior, you know, like there there's no kind of perfect order to be restored. You know, like there will be ongoing complexities in this situation between the occupied and the occupier.

[00:35:46] And and you have to just do the best you can and. Yeah. Accept those gray areas. As the world goes back into color. Right. Did you feel any kind of sense of responsibility or additional weight shooting this episode in the time that it's being shot? Or do you think that the timeless nature of this kind of story kind of lent you some levity for that?

[00:36:14] I think Star Trek is timeless in this way. Right. Like, I think that is why the show continues. That's why the IP continues to have this kind of enduring legacy is that this is the history of civilizations, you know, like rising and falling and the engagement of like cultures with like.

[00:36:35] Between each other and the kind of the reconciliation of different cultures and different systems of government and the inevitability of authoritarianism of like kind of darker forces, you know, taking control and and how people overcome that.

[00:36:56] And how, again, like that kind of core belief and hope that things can be better is always there and has to find some kind of footing in this world, no matter how dark it gets. Yeah, I think it's evergreen. And that's why the show and again, the IP never, never really goes away. It's always applicable to the world we're living in. And yeah, Klingons. Yeah. I was just about to ask.

[00:37:26] So you got to direct Klingons and Vulcans with Spock and Asha. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a favorite alien to direct? I did love the scene with Asha. Yeah, she's really good. The Gen Z kind of voice of the show. Yeah. I mean, who doesn't love Spock? I mean, he's just so dreamy. But I think, you know, the Klingons were really special for this episode. I mean, I think it was just like, it's such a classic in every way.

[00:37:53] Everything about this episode just feels, again, what the show does best is the straddling that line between classic and contemporary. Mm-hmm. And there was a real person there that was like trying to maintain control and, you know, and has a job to do in his own way. Yeah.

[00:38:23] And we talked a little bit about whether or not there should be other aliens present in the cafe and like kind of what is the, you know, what is the population in and around this planet look like. And I think the consensus was like to make the Klingons kind of the centerpiece of the episode to just focus on them and their presence as a distinction between the occupied and the occupier.

[00:38:46] So, yeah, I mean, I think ultimately the Klingons like getting to like direct an episode that had Klingons, let alone the Klingons being the main kind of antagonist of the episode is like just felt like a real gift in every way. Yeah. And one of the most iconic Klingons giving one of the most iconic performances of Strange New Worlds. Yeah. I mean, like you were saying, this episode kind of is Strange New Worlds in a nutshell.

[00:39:13] Like this is the most TOS story I think we've had in Strange New Worlds, but done with this black and white noir style. Like. Yeah. Is the playfulness of Strange New Worlds. Mm-hmm. Maybe to that point. I don't know. I'm going to try that as a transition. Now, I am not a smoker. I hate smoking. And I fully understand why movies and TV shows have shied away from glamorizing smoking. But as a cinephile, I love smoking in movies and TV shows. It looks so cool. It looks so good. Yeah.

[00:39:42] Especially in a noir like this. Like, was there any pushback at having characters smoke in this episode? I recall there being a conversation about it, but because of the context of the episode and the story of it, it was able to pass. But I mean, most shows I work on now, like just it's absolutely not allowed anymore.

[00:40:02] And unless it's like a period, unless it's a period specific thing, if it takes place in another time or in this case on another planet or like is referencing another time period where it's part of the aesthetic. It's just not something. Yeah. It's not something you are allowed to do anymore. Nor. Yeah. Nor would you want to. But yeah, of course. Yeah. When you actually put it in front of a camera, you're like, this looks so good. And everyone looks so cool.

[00:40:30] I was wondering if it was allowed only because it was like the slimiest character of the episode doing it. Right. That I noticed. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. But we had all the, a lot of the background actors were doing it, you know, like it was, yeah, it was part of the world. Yeah. I love that in an episode that also features like coercive interrogation, there was a conversation of like, but can we show smoking? Like, I think it's probably good that that conversation was had, but I'm with Cam here.

[00:40:58] I'm glad that you all landed on, yeah, let's have some of these characters smoke. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, it wouldn't be authentic, I think, to the aesthetic of the genre. And I really think film noir is more of like a set of aesthetic principles than it is like anything else, you know? And that's kind of one of them. Absolutely.

[00:41:20] Is there anything that you shot for this episode that you were really hoping would make it to the final cut that didn't get there? So candidly, I don't know. Because I was in the middle of shooting, I was in the middle of shooting another episode when I got the link for what the final episode looks like. So I don't know. And honestly. Not your fault. Well, I mean, like, I'm also like fully candid.

[00:41:49] Like, I often don't watch the episode. I'll watch every episode around my episode. But I'm not like super precious or interested in watching my episodes sometimes because it's like, I can't just watch it as a viewer, you know? Like, it's like, it's hard to really enjoy. It's like, it's hard to enjoy a meal you've cooked, right? Like, it's a very similar feeling for me. But, yeah. You're like Samuel L. Jackson. You don't watch your own performances.

[00:42:18] Well, and it's possible that you have more humility than others because there have been a few things I cooked where I was like, I knocked this out of the park. Oh, really? Or I'm just very self-critical, you know? Because that's the problem. That's why I can't just watch things. I'm just like, oh, we could have done that. Could have done that. I have memories in my mind of like the things I really loved. And from like the cuts that I was like a part of, you know? Like, I have memories of like those sequences that I really, that I really loved.

[00:42:48] But yeah, this one, this one I will. I just didn't get a chance to watch the screener. Yeah. Well, along those lines then, in theory, this might be easier for you to pull from memory. Do you have a favorite shot of this episode? Do you recall as it was coming through the monitor thinking that's the one? Well, I do love the choreography of like that, of the ID card that I mentioned. Like just the way we were able to figure that out.

[00:43:17] Because it's not even like we figured it out. It's just like everything lined up. When Jaylem reveals himself to who he believes to be, Nevette, like that he's not the bartender, that he's actually part of the resistance. Like Ahura was just arrested and Jaylem approaches Una and Mabenga in front of this big window. Yeah. And they're like silhouetted against this like big bright window.

[00:43:47] I just remember loving that shot when we shot it because it just did all the things that noir, it just felt very noir. I mean, I think it was their silhouettes again, like because the costuming was so on point. Like their silhouettes against that window and just those figures kind of outlined against that big bright light source. Just remember it being really striking. I'm really loving it. And then all the steam. And all the atmosphere. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:15] And in an episode that, you know, will be described as black and white, that is one of very few shots that is literally only black and white. Like there are no shades. It is pure silhouette and it is gorgeous. That's, that's an excellent pick that I'll just tell people that that was my favorite shot the whole time too. And I lined it right up with the director. Yeah. I remember watching, you know, this is like the streaming world we live in, but like when I'm working on an episode, sometimes we'll be working on a shot and I'll be like, that's going to be the thumbnail.

[00:44:45] I don't know what the thumbnail on this episode is going to be, but I was like, that, that'd be a good thumbnail. Do you just pure curiosity? Do they give you any input on that or is that entirely up to someone else? Yeah. I don't even know who chooses that. Yeah. That's so down the pipeline from my experience. So I'll find out on Thursday, I guess. With all of us. Well, thank you so much for talking to us. Very excited to have you here.

[00:45:13] You've worked on many of my favorite shows from glow to Westworld to Ms. Marvel. And I'm very excited to have you part of the, the strange new worlds family now too. I only half remember those experiences. Well, I won't drill down on those, but I was going to ask you about your latest film is a zombie film that I believe is black and white also. Right. It sounds fascinating. I want to check it out. Do you want to kind of give a pitch for it? Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's just very coincidentally,

[00:45:41] like I don't think Chris or Henry or anyone knew that I had been working on that film. Cause that was like a total side passion project. Like, you know, when the industry kind of shut down for a year with the labor strikes and everything, I got kind of restless. And yeah, my husband and I just kind of called up a couple of our friends and shot a night of the living dead throwback called didn't die. We rented a house in upstate New York where I am right now and made this chamber piece really about

[00:46:06] like a couple of characters figuring out how to find meaning and what family really means at the end of the world and the zombie apocalypse. And it's like a semi improvised dramedy. And yeah, it's called didn't die. It's various VOD platforms. People are interested in watching it. I'm sold. And that's kind of like a brilliantly simple name for a zombie film. Like, yeah, I was like, okay, perfect. You got me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We like the title a lot too,

[00:46:36] but maybe even started with the title. We're like, here's a title. Let's rent a house and we'll figure everything else out. This podcast started with the title too. Yep. Yeah. There you go. It's a really clever title. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah. As soon as we had that, we're like, well now we have to do it. Yeah, exactly. That's kind of how we made that movie too. Yeah. Sometimes you just, you know, whatever it takes to get you making something. Right. Well, Mira,

[00:47:04] thank you so much for joining us for prime direction. This has been wonderful and insightful. And I do, I have to say just on behalf of all the people that I already know that love this episode and the people that are going to get to love this episode. Thank you so much for your work on it. It is gorgeous. I mean, it's just a privilege when you get to hop on board with like a bunch of talented artists, like the people that work on this show. So, so thank you guys for platforming it and giving me a little time to talk about. I mean, it's been nice to think about it again.

[00:47:33] It's been a while since we shot it. So just remembering how special it was to get to be a part of it is, is important because these things kind of come and go pretty fast in your life. And it's rare that you get to work on something that, you know, like an episode in particular. It's I've worked on cool shows, but to know that this, the particular episode that I did is going to have the, the impact and be loved. I think the way this one will be is like an absolute gift. I'm really lucky. Thank you.