PRIME DIRECTION - Director Chris Fisher talks "Valles Marineris"

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello, hello. Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds podcast that encourages our listeners to boom, boom, akka laka, boom, boom, open the door, get on the floor, and preferably walk the dinosaur. I'm your host, John T. Boulds, here tonight to kick off the newest Open Pike Night series. We're calling it Prime Direction. This season, in addition to our interviews with episode writers, we're speaking with the directors of season four,

[00:00:49] of Star Trek Strange New Worlds. I'm joined, of course, by my intrepid co-host, the man who's very grateful to the Martians for making sure that Earth didn't become an ugly planet, a bug planet, Jesse Bailey. Yeah, the only good bug, as you're well aware, is a dead bug. And I think spiders are the only legitimate reason for anyone to own a gun. Tonight's discussion features a guest from our past, not our ancient past, but our past nonetheless. A man whose directorial DNA

[00:01:18] exists in the Star Trek of our present, exists in the Star Trek of our present, and who knows his way around a juicy genre story. Join me in a heartfelt Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus, and welcome to executive producer and director, Chris Fisher. Hey, guys. Thanks for the warm welcome. Yeah, thanks for being here with us. It's warm all over the country right now. I'm sweating where I'm at. You're sitting in the sun. It's a hot summer, and man, it's going to be a good summer with Strange New Worlds season four starting. Yeah, it's a great set of air dates.

[00:01:48] It's kind of right, you know, going right up the early fall. July 23rd, and then ends on September 24th at the finale. So, yeah, it's a nice couple of weeks right in the middle of summer to get your trek on. Well, a bunch of us are going to be in Vegas for the week when episode three drops, and we've already had our discussion with the director for that episode. And, man, it's going to be a fun one. It's going to be a fun one as people start reacting to it while they're there. Yeah, that's super great. Yana is such a phenomenal director. It should be so fun to have out there.

[00:02:18] Last time we were there, Hegemony Part 1 dropped, right, Jesse? Actually, I'm not sure that it dropped. I think we got our screener for it. Oh, that's right. We got our screener for it. No, yeah. It was like walking around an area full of Trekkies pretending not to have just seen Hegemony Part 1 was like an exercise in restraint that I was not necessarily prepared for, but I made it.

[00:02:40] Well, I feel you because it's an exercise in restraint not jumping into episode three right now and why it's so perfect for Vegas because, you know, like, you know, we don't want to go there. But yeah, it's anyways, I'll leave it at that. There we go. There we go. Let's let's get on to episode one here. And we're going to we got to start out with the opening shot. Where and how were the horseback scenes filmed?

[00:03:05] And did you have green screens up for the the visual effects in that shot or was it fully just CGI afterward? Great questions. So being the premiere episode, one of the things that's always true about the premiere episode is that you have the longest amount of time to prep it. Right. Because, you know, we all get there, you know, 14 weeks before day one of shooting to start building our virtual production sets.

[00:03:31] So even though we're not really officially on the clock for the episode, we're already thinking about episode one, 14 weeks in advance, which most guest directors get two weeks to prep their episode. I get 14 weeks. Hey, you know, life isn't fair. But so we started talking about that right away. That was like almost the topic that consumed so much of our early prep because the actual shoot days for the episode were right in the middle of winter.

[00:03:57] And we knew we loved the horseback stuff we did in the pilot so much, which is all this stuff that I shot second unit. But we just felt that that was so iconic, so evocative and so unique that we really wanted to do the opposite. We really wanted to open with a Western. And like the idea was that, like, we wanted the audience to say, oh, shit, they're finally doing a Western. And and of course we did. But we just showed you the end of it. And it was like that really fun tease.

[00:04:24] So we knew we really wanted it to be straight up, you know, that Monument Valley style thing. So I came up with this idea of doing these upside down drip castles that we did in the VFX. But no, we shot it all practically. There was no green screen at all. We shot Chrissy, Babs and Anson all ride their own horses. Those we didn't. And they for all the riding, we didn't use any of the stunt doubles. They were there, of course. That's cool.

[00:04:53] But we didn't need to use them. So the guys did the riding. We did it in a quarry. Shocker. Surprise, surprise. The famous Ontario quarries, which are responsible. It's sort of like Jesse thought so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like, you know, TOS, how they, you know, sort of overused all the Palmdale Lancaster sets, you know, like we're kind of like that was that sort of our zone to create our hot, you know, very un-Toronto look.

[00:05:21] And the great thing about it is so when you're looking at those scenes, the close ups are all done without any visual effects at all. You're really just shooting them long lens and blowing out the background and you're using the coloration of the actual walls of the quarry. But they're just out of focus enough that you don't miss those great, you know, upside down drip castles. So we really saved our VFX very, you know, it was very cost effective VFX planning as always by Jason, Jay-Z, Jason Zimmerman, our VFX producer, who's truly the best.

[00:05:51] But he really put the money in the shots that mattered. And then I did my part by keeping the close ups in a way that didn't need to spend any of that money to take it away from those big wide shots that are just truly beautiful. Especially that final shot of them when your camera's sailing up or pulling away and we fade into the teleporter controls going up the thing. It was one of my favorite shots and one of my favorite transitions for the episode. Excellent. Just jumping back real quick. I did forget.

[00:06:20] I always talk so much. I forget to answer your guys' damn goddamn questions. So the quarry stuff we shot six months later. So we shot the quarry stuff during 410. So, you know, I also directed the season finale. So I actually shot the quarry stuff during 410 when it was summer. So that's how late our post-production team had to keep the cut open for. Oh, wow. I'm going to ask possibly the nerdiest film nerd question I've ever asked.

[00:06:50] The very first shot of the horse's hooves galloping, was there a bet that horse's feet didn't leave the ground when they ran? Did you settle it with that shot? No. Or had that been answered already sometime in the past? I understood that reference. Yes. Yeah. You know, I think we were... I was so fixated on that opening and that shot. And again, not to get too artsy-fartsy here, but like, you know, this episode is so much

[00:07:18] about Pike trying to live in the moment, to put Patel behind him, put that relationship behind him, and sort of just kind of do what he loves. And of course, you know, he has to, you know, make some tiny little decisions like maybe, you know, change the face of humanity for 65 million years. You know, just that small little decision he has to make later on. But there was something about just the horse running the galloping that just sort of thematically, emotionally told what we were doing. And I held on it for so long.

[00:07:47] I thought, of course, you know, Akiva always cuts my big... I was like, that's a waste of time. What the fuck is fish doing? You know, but for some reason, those guys left this one in. I must have slipped something in their iced teas or something when they're in the final cut room. But yeah, we held on it forever, right? And then we kind of come around and then we rise up and we find Pike, you know, escaping from his mission. Well, not that you need the fan approval, but like, I think you made the right choice there.

[00:08:16] Like being able to see those grains of sand coming off of the hooves, like very visceral scene, really evocative, makes you feel like you're on a horse. I love that shot. And kind of a follow-up to that with ancient earth. There are clearly some practical sets going on there. How much of that is practical versus AR wall? Because I got to imagine the AR wall was most of ancient earth, right? So, wow. So now you're getting into the stuff I love most of all.

[00:08:45] So every single shot you see in prehistoric earth is on the AR wall. There's not a single green screen shot. There's not a single practical set. We shot over 20 pages on our volume using virtual production. So by season four, we had truly become the world experts in virtual production. And trust me, it wasn't an easy road or a quick road.

[00:09:10] You know, when we started season one in 2020 during the pandemic, we literally knew nothing. The only thing we knew was watching the behind the scenes from the Mandalorian and thank God for Lucasfilms and Disney doing these great behind the scenes. Of course, they didn't really give us any useful information as we don't give anything behind the scenes either. But that's all we had. But by season four, we really were the world experts and we wanted to flex. And specifically, I wanted to flex.

[00:09:40] I really felt like, okay, we've worked so hard to get to really understand this new tool. Let's show what it can do. My favorite shot of mine in all of Stranger Things World is that shot where we bring the shuttle down, land it in the AR. It landed inside the volume and then have our actors walk out of it. So all in that big one, or that's just one of my favorite shots, if not my favorite shot that we've done.

[00:10:08] Again, over 20 pages of the script, over five days of shooting, were all a virtual production on the volume. And again, there was no post VFX. There was no green screen. And there was no practical set. So I think really that this episode stands out as sort of a testament, not just to other shows, but really to the studios. Like, hey, this technology is here. It's not experiment.

[00:10:36] It's scalable, repeatable, cost-effective way of doing production. So yeah, I'd say that's definitely as a director and a producer, what I'm most proud of is those ancient Earth scenes. Man, and you're right. That shot with the shuttle, you're kind of watching it and you're like, okay, they're landing a shuttle, but then it kicks that dust into the sunbeams and it takes it to this whole other level of beauty. I love that shot.

[00:11:04] Very cool to hear that it sounds like you do too. Oh, I do. I mean, I even said, I may have loved it too much because I kind of did the same shot for it flying away. And I was like, you know, I'm like, hey, if they're going to pay for it, I'll do it. But yeah, it was pretty cool. It was cool. I wanted to see the jets light up and then the dust kick. Again, all that stuff's practical. And one of the beautiful things about virtual production is that right now there's this big conversation that some people are having and some people aren't, but everyone's scared about it, but AI, right? AI is coming to replace us.

[00:11:34] You know, and virtual production in some ways is really the anti-AI because this is like human actors with human directors and human writers and the entire craftspeople. Like in virtual production, because you're shooting on a practical set that has a digital extension, all your traditional craftsmen from construction to painters to props, hair, makeup, effects, you know, that's just having the wind and the smoke and then the dust hits and the fire, like all this stuff is more important than ever.

[00:12:03] It's really a sort of beautiful way of using technology, not to replace human storytelling, to enhance human storytelling. And as long as we want stories that are told by humans and, you know, I'm one of them, we, you know, virtual production is the technology that's going to really make world building cost effective and accessible to not just expensive shows like the Mandalorian or even less expensive,

[00:12:33] but still expensive shows like ours, but for lower and medium budget shows, right? It's going to be, if it, as soon as a studio is adopted in sort of a digital backlot sort of idea, then it'll become, you know, something that every show on the lock and say, Hey, just like you used to go to an old backlot, you'd go to like the Paris street. Of course you can't use that Paris street anymore because now we're shooting 4k that Paris street looks like crap, right? So, so backlots have just become a tourist attraction, but with virtual

[00:13:00] production, the backlots using, using all these empty sound stages, we could actually make the studio backlot come alive again and give it rebirth and using virtual production to keep production, not only in California, keep it in LA, keep it cost effective and safe. Man, beautifully said. Like, absolutely. It's, you absolutely have adherence to that right here on this show. And I'm sure listening as well. So you mentioned the humanity of storytelling,

[00:13:27] and I think that is absolutely central to star Trek and always has been in this episode in particular. And, you know, obviously through every season, but I think in this episode, you can really see Ethan Peck's Spock getting gradually closer to Nimoy's Spock. It's evident in a lot of scenes in this episode, most of them little moments where he's kind of annoyed with his crew or like, let me just repeat myself here because this is the correct information.

[00:13:55] Was that a conscious choice you made in your direction or is that just Ethan getting so used to this role? I won't speak for Ethan. I know it's out there, his love and admiration for Nimoy, right? It's like, he's met with the family. He's, you know, he like, it's no small matter for him. He takes it very seriously. And he really lets that guide his performance. What I feel is happening more than

[00:14:22] anything season four is Ethan really coming into his own. I really feel that I think all of us for the first season were like, this can't really be happening. You know, like this isn't really happening. And then season two, like we get these great reviews and like, this is actually happening now, now, now there's all this pressure and stress. And season three, maybe we started loosening up a

[00:14:46] little bit, maybe too much, but by season four, kind of, we really, I think, and this is, doesn't just go for Ethan. And again, I don't want to speak for him, but I felt like he really was coming into his own. He's really feeling the sweet spot with his Spock where he just really found the character in, in, in a really great and exciting way. You know, he, he is an absolute joy to work with on set. He, I mean, his, you know, it's not just lip service, but it goes for the entire cast,

[00:15:15] but they're all so incredibly prepared and ready to go. But, but, but Ethan probably, you know, sets the high water mark, um, of just how, how focused he is, how much he thinks through every moment of the character, every motion, every movement, uh, it's all considered beforehand, but then he gets to set and he kind of lets it, lets it, lets it flow. I mean, I think, and I love that that's the first question you asked me about the cast because, you know, he didn't necessarily

[00:15:42] get a lot of screen time in this episode, but he also has a lot of import in this episode. And I think it's one of those really nice things that just because maybe you're not in the ACE storyline as much as you might want to be. And it was really Pike and Cassell, um, and then our away team doing their thing. And then we had this, you know, runner with Ortegas and, um, and Scotty. Um, but, but in those small moments, he finds the magic. He can steal the scene with a look. That's when you really like

[00:16:09] kind of bow down and say, this guy's really in it right now. He's really in the zone because he doesn't need a lot to achieve a lot, just truly, honestly, really being Spock and just being there in the scene is so effing heavy and just pulls you, you know, you're just drawn to it. If you've ever heard our show, you know, all we do is talk about how he is crushing this role. And it's, it's, it's good to hear that from both sides.

[00:16:36] I mean, he's so inside those boots, right? Like those boots were just like, they don't feel like they're Nimoy's boots. They'll feel like they're his boots. They're made for him. Nobody else wears them. Like he's just, he's just in it. There's no Ethan there. There's just Spock. Would you say these boots are made for Spocken? I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. I had to, you can mute me, John. I'm sorry. I set you up. I set you up. It's my fault.

[00:17:01] You, you mentioned the, you mentioned not bowing down, but I think one of my favorite shots in this episode is a bowing down to the King when the T-Rex is revealed and the three bad-ass ladies all get to like drop to their knee, like to, to cover. But at the same time, it's like, man, that just a beautiful visual, like Rebecca Romijn. Oh really? That was her bitch. I worked so good.

[00:17:30] It was one of these crazy days on the, on the volume and, and we're running around and here it comes in and again, you know, the, the one thing that wasn't in the wall, it was the dinosaurs. Right. So that, that was animation that, uh, that came much later, but everything else was there. I was doing the growls on the microphone and, and I just, this, I did this one super loud growl and I don't know if I, it was too loud, but yeah, she just naturally just shrunk down. And then we started playing with the camera, right? As they went down, the camera came up.

[00:17:58] Uh, we did that classic, you know, boom up tilt down shot with them crouching, but yeah, that was Rebecca Rebecca's idea. Uh, we had so much fun doing that away story. Um, I hadn't directed our three heroines like that before. Um, I don't think they'd even been on an away mission like that before just the three of them. Um, and it was like kismet. We had so much fun. It was just like, uh, those days were, were the most fun days of the shooting by far.

[00:18:28] That's so cool. And yeah, I, the chemistry with those three is great. And then you've got the sprinkle of the Scotty Erica chemistry. Like it's, it's an excellent set of scenes. So it is mentioned eventually that the Martian DNA exists in the star Trek species that we've come to know and love. And I personally, I couldn't help but notice the ears like was, were Vulcans the primary

[00:18:56] inspiration for these Martians or was there like a lot of sources you guys drew from for that? So in this big, you know, Indiana Jones type of action adventure, you get to slip in some really heady ideas. Uh, you get to really slip in some fun stuff to think about. And like one of the big ideas here that's sort of kind of lost in all the other big ideas is that like, you know, evolution is cyclical. Uh, you know, we, we think that there's like some end game to evolution, but like

[00:19:23] what we realized is 65 million years ago, there were two very intelligent civilizations in our solar system. Uh, the Martians and the doldrum, uh, and the humans weren't, weren't even an egg yet. Right. Like, and you know, of course, you know, as you know, this idea that evolution, you know, we, we build and we build and we bang. And then we start over again that, that, that evolution doesn't have a finish line instead at the end, you're just right back at the starting

[00:19:49] line. Uh, and I think that was really fun. And so jumping into this idea that we're Vulcans, the primary, you know, connective tissue to the Martian survivors because of the ears. I don't know. I mean, I, I didn't really jump into that visualization so much, but that makes a lot of sense. I understand that read of it for sure. I think it's kind of cool, even broader to say that, you know, Martians and, you know, who we think are these little green men, or of course,

[00:20:18] these six foot eight beautiful creatures played by Saffron Burroughs. And that there's a part of them in all of us and that we're all part Martian and that, you know, this, we're all part of this stardust and, um, that they, they, they didn't die. They became part of this, you know, here goes my, uh, here goes my pseudo spirituality, my pseudo science is like, you know, energy can never be created or a story that's changed space. It's like they, they lost and they came back and we

[00:20:46] gathered them and stuff like that. So I went a little more, uh, grateful dead, esoteric hippie shit with it than, uh, than, than connecting the ears. But that's always kind of, that's always where I get lost in things. Well, I think you guys hit those, those moments too, because like, there are a lot of parallels clearly between them and us and specifically her and Pike, right. She's like, I'm just doing what a good captain would do. Wouldn't you do this?

[00:21:12] You feel this way. I feel this way. And it is, you know, she's like, look, man, I'm just, I'm acting how I think you would act. So I think you guys nailed that interpretation of it too. It was really well done. And yeah, Saffron Burroughs performance. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that for a second. Saffron, uh, you know, again, you know, there was no casting for this role. I mean, her and Akiva go way back. This was, this was written for her. She came in,

[00:21:42] she just destroyed this, uh, her and Anson loved working together. I mean, it was such a joy to, uh, to watch her work. I was just a huge fan of hers forever, ever since gangster number one, which, uh, was one of my favorite movies. And I thought she was incredible. And you know, you just, someone flies up from Toronto, they showed a set and you never know. And like, it was just on from day one. Um, we, sometimes we have these guest stars that really come in our

[00:22:08] game changers and, and, and that was certainly, uh, certainly one of them. And I think, you know, one of the things I think was really fun again, you know, taking an action adventure show, which is like so much fun and big and buoyant, but then like, of course we had all these really great moral quagmires, you know, we obviously had in the, in the time travel stuff, we had two sort of grandfather paradoxes going on. We had the, the away team couldn't, you know, how can you survive dinosaurs when you can't hurt them? You know, like you have to do like the impossible shot in the

[00:22:37] mouth or you actually punch one. Uh, so we, we, we were dealing with that moral dilemma in a fun way. And then of course, you know, Pike's, you know, it trying to be honest and forthright with Commander Cassell, but of course he doesn't tell her the most important thing, you know, and like that scene where he, he, you know, he's, he, he, he thinks she's in the wrong and she's like, you just, you lied to me, you know, like you, you lied to me and, and, and I can't

[00:23:03] trust you. And the thing that's on your ship is going to save my people. And I literally think the, you know, this is when, you know, Akiva and Henry are, are so brilliant sometimes. And when they really just hit it, I think they, the dialogue is even so much, wouldn't you do the same? It's like, and it's just so simple like that because you get, let Pike then sit and marinate in that moment. And you guys are exactly right. This is a parallel story about two captains that are both doing the same thing to, to save their people. Uh, and there's this mad respect between them,

[00:23:33] maybe more, right? Maybe when Pike watches her ship get destroyed, you know, I really tried to imbue his, his emotion, his reaction with something maybe more than respect and camaraderie. And like that there was that he was actually starting to feel something for this person. And then the, the, the line that walked was beautiful. So with, with Saffron Bros, with Commander Cassell, it really seemed like her description of, uh, the Doldrum, Doldrum,

[00:24:01] when she's first talking with Pike about them really has like overtones of Picard talking to Lily in first contact about the Borg. It felt like, okay, we, like you said, we have two desperate captains. We have two leaders who are desperate to keep their people safe. And hers definitely felt more driven by extinction and his felt more driven by, I don't have most of my toolkit to use right now.

[00:24:27] So I have to use my words to the best of my ability. What were the conversations like with Saffron and Anson about those performances? You know, there was less conversations and lots of rehearsals. Uh, so both of them really needed to find those scenes. Um, so we spent a lot of time, uh, you know, and, and Henry, of course was on set with us the whole time. Uh, we spent a lot of time rehearsing that all of their two handers,

[00:24:56] um, that, that was ended up being, uh, and, and Anson is very gracious, uh, with his guest stars. He, he can work in a lot of different ways. You know, again, you know, we got pretty good at what we do by season four and we could be fast when we needed to, which actually allowed the performances to really improve because we had more time for rehearsal. You know, there wasn't this rush to shoot or get something in the can. Uh, we, you know, we could give the actors time to really rehearse and forget these things out.

[00:25:23] And, you know, we got dinosaurs on star Trek, not holodeck, not aliens, good old earth dinosaurs. So was the approach to those more like based in heavy paleontology or more like wish fulfillment when you were, uh, when you were coming up with the dinosaur interactions there? Well, I don't think I would have ever been a 10 year old boy if I didn't take a T-Rex and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and a star Trek spaceship and smash them together. Right. I mean, like,

[00:25:53] I mean, I mean, I don't know how many years of my life I spent doing that. Uh, but let's just say that, uh, I, it didn't take a lot of imagination to, to, to think of what this is going to look like. Um, the, you know, again, from the, from the, the, the literal sense, like we wanted them to be actually the, you know, as realistic as possible. And that's why we did that opening

[00:26:19] scene where you don't see him right away because we didn't want them to people to say, oh, we're on, we're on, oh, we're at, we're at, we're at, we're at 65 million years ago, of course. And, you know, star Trek, uh, fans are very smart. So they, as soon as they saw the dinosaur, they would know. And that was sort of a reason why we try to really come up with that fun tease where it was hiding. It was kind of eating a triceratops behind, uh, a bunch of trees. And we have fun with our characters kind of trying to decide what they could and couldn't do with it.

[00:26:48] And, you know, try to get Scotty to help. But then of course the ship gets, you know, uh, attacked by the, uh, Martian ship. Um, so, you know, the, the velociraptor and the T-Rex and the pterodactyl, uh, and the brontosaurus, you know, everything we wanted, everything to be, uh, as realistic as possible. Uh, we want, we tried to have as many dinosaurs as we could, uh, the dinosaurs, again, like I said, so everything you saw in ancient earth was, uh,

[00:27:14] was, was virtual production on the volume except, and I should accept the dinosaurs. So the dinosaurs were all added in post VFX because it took a long time and a lot of money to make them look that good. Um, I, I think it is, um, our strongest, uh, uh, or at least one of our strongest VFX episodes for our VFX team, uh, the dinosaurs, you know, the, I love that shot at the

[00:27:39] end when, you know, the, the antimatter hits the doldrum planet, the explosion comes and it, you know, destroys the Martian ship, then swallows us shipping up a big tidal wave. And then you just kind of pan with this asteroid. You don't really know what it's, you kind of feel it's meaningless. And then it goes in and it hits the planet. And you're like, is that, and then you hear pikes come up like it is, you know, like that is the fucking, that is the, like, we are explaining everything in the last 65 million

[00:28:07] years in this one shot. And it's really tight. So like, I immediately, as many fans probably will do because we are huge nerds. I went and looked up iridium cause I know that's a real thing. And it's like, Oh, Hey, guess when iridium is most prevalent in the earth's crust 65 million years ago. Here's why, because there was an asteroid and I'm like, this is so tightly done. It is really,

[00:28:33] really good. I was very impressed by that. And you're, you're going to get points for putting feathers on the dinosaurs. I know there can be resistance to that, but like they're big chickens. I was very happy to see that. So. I, the feathers, when I saw the fire of the feather surprised me at first two on the velociraptor. And then I actually had to do like the Google going, Oh yeah, that's actually accurate. So yeah. But you know what's so funny, like about that shot or not funny, but like,

[00:29:00] I mean, like, I don't often love the sort of like recap scenes after a big episode, but on this show, they were the best, almost my favorite scenes of the show, because there was so much juicy information of like Spock explaining and realizing everyone, like, you know, everyone's in on it. Like, so we were only there because we had to be there. And then you have that great final scene

[00:29:25] with that two-hander with a bike in April where he really fucking leveled it down with the buoy. You know, we answered a subspace buoy from ourselves left in the 65 million years ago in the past, you know, like, come on, that's just like, if that's not like Star Trek fastball down the middle, I don't know what is. So I'm glad that you brought that up because there are, there is another bookend here. And that is,

[00:29:53] of course, Pellia mentioning that she once saw this storm when she was in a phone box. Now we know we have, this is two seasons in a row with Dr. Who Easter eggs. And we know that that crossover was very close to happening, but ultimately has not materialized. Should we expect Pellia's mention of the phone box to be the last crumb on this trail? You know, that would definitely be a showrunner question. And I wouldn't want to step on Akiva

[00:30:23] and Henry's stuff on that. But look, I mean, Akiva let the cat out of the bag, I think last week, or I saw some interviews from Akiva and Henry where they were talking about trying to put that together with Dr. Who. And so, you know, I was, those are, you know, not all executive producers are great equal. I was not, I was not part of those conversations, but I knew about them. Right.

[00:30:47] So I knew how to direct it. I knew how to have fun with it. I can only say too much on this and in spoiling it one way or the other, but, but yeah, as Akiva said in those things, it didn't, it didn't ultimately come to fruition. But I, it was, it was as close as you can imagine because we were putting it in the show. Right. Right. So several times. Yeah. I mean, you know, Akiva did not direct an episode season four,

[00:31:12] but he was planning on it. And if he had, it would have been that, you know? So yeah, you know, he's our Babe Ruth, right. He's our, he's our big hitter. So, you know, he was going to come in for that one. But, but you know, it's hard enough to make a Star Trek show, you know, so power to those guys. I mean, they're, they're some ambitious showrunners

[00:31:39] who always want to keep, keep going for it. And, you know, I've seen the best in the business do the job and I, the, the, the balls that they have pushed uphill, I mean, Sisyphus times 10, man. And you know, the fact that they couldn't get one up the hill, you know, that, that, trust me, they, they tried and no, no, no one does it better. I'll definitely be asking Akiva the question.

[00:32:06] I'm sure a lot of people would be asking him like, which one, which one, yeah. Which, which one, what, which doctor, which doctor, you know, or multiples. Yeah. They must, I get, if I had to guess that they had a, my guess is they probably had a whole story broken. Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, again, I never saw it. I, I don't get the, I don't get the early juicy stuff. We will push them so hard the next time we talk to them. Oh yeah. If you, if you get a copy

[00:32:32] of it, send it to me. I was in my, I won't say a thing. I promise the, uh, yeah, that final scene you were talking about the conference room scene. I just felt like the only thing missing here is Pelley is saying somebody I once knew would say we were a fixed point in time. Like, it's like, yeah. We're missing one little line from this scene. Yeah. And yeah. So I do have, I have one more very important dinosaur question. Yes. Especially knowing that they were not part of

[00:33:02] the volume. Did Christina Chong get to punch a practical Raptor head? She did. So, uh, looked like, Oh yeah. It looks so good. So, you know, we had two really kind of, um, strong interactive scenes with our actors, obviously one with a T-Rex, which is something that we've never done before. Right. Like, and I, I'm a huge fan of, uh, you know, Godzilla and,

[00:33:27] uh, you know, and like, I love big monsters. So this was our first like big monster. Right. So, so there was no, you know, real practical version of it. Uh, everything was, was, was VFX. Um, you know, you just, you can't puppet something that big, you know, a, a Gorn is about the, about the ultimate size of that you can puppet still. So that was one way of, so how we,

[00:33:53] you know, uh, crafted the scene with the T-Rex was, was kind of like, you know, um, so how you craft a Godzilla fight, right. It was, it was, it was, uh, it was, uh, you know, camera angles and, uh, interactive stuff and, you know, having to get the actors really to believe in what they were not seeing. Uh, the great thing with the Velociraptor, of course, we have our team at Legacy. So we have not only the best VFX team in the world, but we have, uh, the, the, the, the geniuses over at,

[00:34:21] at Legacy. Um, and you know, so they brought in, uh, the Velociraptor. Um, so those shots, like it poking its eye over the thing, everything like that, everything except for it running away was practical. Um, so yeah, so that, those were all, that was all a puppeted, uh, sort of waist up, uh, Velociraptor, uh, animatronics from Legacy. Um, and, uh, the, the, the, again, like the only shot,

[00:34:50] so she really did punch it in the face. Um, and she really did almost hurt her hand. Uh, and so like that look at the end, she's like, Holy fuck, am I a monster too? You know, it was like, she was like really thinking, Oh my God, my, this fucking broke my hand. Um, the, um, but the shot of it running away that, that, of course that became a, uh, a full CG shot. Right. Okay. Cause we talked to Alex, what I think we asked the Jurassic park question, like, why does this still look so good? And he had

[00:35:18] mentioned a part of it, they put as much practical as they could and then add it on. And when she punched that, I'm like, Oh, there's no way that's CG. Like that, that was a physical punch through and through. So I'm glad, I'm glad you guys stuck with that. Cause it, they do look good, man. They're, they look real good. Legacy. I mean, like, I'll let me just take a, you know, I, I always rave about our VFX team, but I need to rave about our, our, our prosthetics, our, our practical effects team and

[00:35:44] prosthetics too. And our creatures are like these guys, all this like old school craftsmanship on our show. That's what makes the volume work. So virtual production without, you know, without dirt and grime and smoke and fire and, and great physical props and, you know, great set deck and all these old school crafts that go into it. That's what makes the digital extension look real.

[00:36:08] It's really this amazing marriage. And so again, like if you, if that whole scene with just a VFX dinosaur, again, it would never have had that sense of realism. Um, and, and so that, that legacy can like come in and do this, you know, in some ways I get so, you know, old world technique of puppeting an animatronics creature, uh, and all of it to make the final cut. You know, I think what we

[00:36:35] did is we, we usually enhance the eye blinks a little bit with VFX. Um, uh, but other than that, what you're seeing is, uh, you know, as, is what, what, what we shot in camera. Uh, they also did, that really great, uh, jump scare with, um, Ortega's. Yeah. So that was, uh, you know, that was them as well. That was all practical that they, they created the doldrum. Um, and, um, again, all, you know, no VFX there at all. That was all just, uh, you know, classic Halloween

[00:37:03] horror type of jump scare. Yeah. Uh, so Ortega's, we have some friction with it. It feels like there are a lot of breadcrumbs dropped in this episode for the season to come. You know, we got, we get Ortega's and Scotty first off, Scotty, welcome to the crew. Welcome to like the main crew in this season. There's, I know, like we've, we've seen more episodes than this one.

[00:37:29] So I want to be careful with how I say it, but, um, our new, our new vocal Vulcan ensign, uh, on and her, her issues and her, you know, what's going on with her. So it just, it feels like a really nice episode one, kind of like a little bit old school of like, Hey, here are things you can expect to be hearing more about in this season. Who knows how much, but it was really fun that there's a lot of this episode. It was fun that we got so many breadcrumbs.

[00:37:56] Yeah. I don't think there was anyone in the ensemble that was underserved. Like even Pellia getting her funny quips at the table. And we, you know, we really gave her the great coverage for that. And like I said, Ethan wasn't in as much of it as I would have liked, but he was so prominent overall. He was the comic relief. Yeah. And that, and that's, you know, in some ways that kind of small little runner with Ortega's and Scotty, you know, he's got, he kind of micromanaged her and her not, you know, like not enjoying the micromanaging,

[00:38:24] you know, that just, I get all these things are stuff that are going to be developed later in the season. You know, that's what makes shooting a premiere sometimes very hard as you have to serve the entire ensemble because you do. Right. And we're on ensemble show and I think more season four than ever. Pike is always our captain, but you know, everyone knows where this is eventually going. Right. So, so at a certain point, like, you know, everyone's going to be getting more screen time,

[00:38:52] including, you know, Kirk, uh, uh, who, who, who is not in the episode, but, um, but we all know that's of course coming and down the road. Was the final shot of earth's last day for a while when the, when the, the, the three crew members are standing there and we do the big sweep over everything, you know, obviously nobody knowing at the time that just a few hours and then the, the comet, the asteroid is going to hit. Was that always in the script or was that sort of a wishlist

[00:39:22] you shot them or was that just, did you just have it all built and you just had to hold the camera still while the VR wall did its thing? That was always in the script. Um, but I will say, uh, you know, part of, um, my job as the producing director, uh, which isn't always the most fun because what a director does is give me more, give me more, give me more. And what a producer says, here's what you got.

[00:39:51] That's not all you got. You're not getting anything else. Um, and, um, so by the time we got, you know, like if you're, if you were looking at early days of the VFX budget, by the time you got to that shot, we were already like $2 million over, you know, like the, you know, so, so they're like, you know, I had just storyboarded this incredible shot and, you know, it was, uh, uh, Akiva's

[00:40:17] response was like, are you insane? Um, uh, and, um, but not only was I not insane, but he's more insane than I am because when, when the shit really gets good, there's no bigger kid in the candy story than him. Right. So like this crazy shot that I storyboarded that everyone said we could never afford. Well, once the cut gets into post and it starts going through the producer cuts and Akiva gets his hands on it, he's like, let's give it more. Let's give it more. Let's give it more. So

[00:40:45] I don't know where they find this money. There's like some, there's some like rainbow and some pot of gold and some leprechauns or something in the post-production department because that shot that I quote unquote did the craziest, most irresponsible shot ever. They made only 10 times bigger. I was like, how, when is this shot going to end? Is this like, is this like a whole other episode? Is this a trailer for the, like, like it just going and going and going and like, what else are you going

[00:41:13] to see? And then like that ending on the T-Rex, it spins and goes like, I didn't do any of that. That wasn't me. That was those guys. I blame it on those guys. Yeah. And that shot was obviously reminiscent of something a lot of us have seen many times. Uh, there are some, a lot of influences from other films and stories and shows on this episode. What were yours personally? What were your main

[00:41:37] other influences? You know, my, my big one was really just, again, like I, that's not how I work as a director. Um, I don't reference the films I love, uh, that when I'm shooting, I try to forget them. I try to fall in love with the story that I'm telling and I try to dream it and imagine it. Um, and I do dream it and imagine it when I, by the time I start shooting, I'm dreaming the show.

[00:42:03] I know every shot in my head, we have two full-time storyboarders. And since I, again, the benefit of doing the premiere is I get to start prepping 14 weeks ahead. So the entire episode was storyboarded like minute by minute. And so I've, you know, I dream it, I put it out there, but, but that said, look, I mean, I, I, I can't not say that Raiders of the Last Ark wasn't a big influence because, because I really just wanted to have that feel like one of the challenges I had

[00:42:30] with this episode. Um, in, in most cases, I think of myself as a sort of a darker, headier director. Like I could watch the Dune movies and, uh, over and over and over all day long and be totally happy, but that's not our show. Our show has always been optimistic and hopeful and light. And so like, we are often at our best when we don't like really hang on a heavy moment, but we sort of

[00:42:59] breeze past it and sometimes even undercut it or have like a look that kind of settles it back down to reality. But there's like these huge things that are happening in this episode, right? Even like some of the minor, like, you know, Pike, you know, being offered a promotion that would take him off the ship. Like, you know, that's his internal conflict. But again, like we, we found like a levity to that, which was great. And then the payoff was that, you know, that Una gets the promotion, right? So we have this, like, so we take these heavy, heavy things and we kind of spin them

[00:43:28] and make them lighter. And I think there's a reason for that. And the reason for that is, you know, shows aren't created from the ether. Shows are created in a context. And you go back to our show, our show was designed, our show was built, our show was created in one of the darkest times of our history, right in the middle of a pandemic after a very divisive election. And this was a show that ultimately, and as Akiva and Alex and everyone involved with the pilot nailed,

[00:43:57] was about, you know, hey, if we work hard, you know, just around the corner, there might be something better for us. So, you know, again, going back to this episode, I, you know, I was kind of torn, like, you know, when they're, you know, when they're dealing with, you know, you know, whether what to tell Cassell or not tell Cassell, you know, ultimately at the end when Pike has to make this

[00:44:19] crazy hunched decision to let an entire civilization be destroyed. Because his hunch is that, well, hey, you know, it's kind of the inverse of the grandfather paradox here. So, because, like, he has to let the planet get destroyed in order for us to be, to exist. And, you know, so, like, but these things, like, we don't dwell on them. And again, and my instinct, right or wrong,

[00:44:45] and I think wrong, honestly, and I have to catch myself as a director, is to really hit those things, to lean into those things, the slow dolly pushing, you know, and, like, don't cut away to lighter reactions, really internalize it, really hit the conflict. But again, like, we kind of let, you know, Una tells them what's up, right, at that moment. So, there's, we don't skate the sort of conflict, the morality conflict, but we don't make it earnest ever. And we get out of it,

[00:45:15] and we move on, and then we have these fun scenes explaining it. You know, that was sort of, like, that was, again, as I, tonally, throughout the episode, I was sort of struggling with, you know, how to keep it fun. And again, and Raiders always taught me that. And like, when in doubt, what would Raiders of the Lost Ark do? How would, how would, if, if Pike was indie, what would he do here? You know, and, and I, and that kind of, that kind of, that was my North Star

[00:45:44] a little bit for the episode. I love that. And it's, there's like, there's this really cool thing when you have so many folks on the production, as you do, that have internalized so much Star Trek over the years. Like, you get sometimes these very clear and intentional parallels to other Star Treks and things like that. But as you were talking there, it kind of hit me like,

[00:46:09] oh, this is a planet full of Edith Keillers from the city on the edge of forever. Like, no, the kicker is that you, Kirk cannot save that character. Like, unfortunately for the future to work out, this goes this way. And it's like, you guys didn't write this as a parallel to that, but it's, it's a familiar tonality that Trekkies will appreciate. And it's like,

[00:46:31] man, I, I'm so grateful to have the people that are making this show be those people, because it's like, you get, you get these things that aren't always even intentional, but they absolutely fit. And yeah, I mean, if you're going to use a film for film school, right? Like Raiders is going to be like top of the list. That makes total sense to me.

[00:46:56] I mean, it's still the most fun I've ever had in a theater. And I, and I remember seeing that movie at a theater and like, it was like, I was like, I've never had so much fun in a theater. And that's what I wanted for this episode. I wanted, I wanted it to be so much fun. And like, they're like, like fucking Martians and, you know, and, and the bug planet and, and, you know, dinosaurs, like, like it just, it had to be fun. But yeah, I think, you know, that's what, you know,

[00:47:22] again, like going, uh, not to repeat myself, but as a testament to our short runners, you know, that, you know, they, they know their truck, right? Like there's like Henry and Kiva know every deep cut there is, but they're doing their own thing. Like, you know, and, you know, and I know not all fans love that, but like, that's, you know, that's the only reason I was there for five seasons is that, you know, I felt like we were, we were singing a song and it was our song and,

[00:47:50] you know, yeah, the, you know, the band was made up of Star Trek musicians, you know, but, but, but we were making our own music and that's the only way to do it. Um, I, I think, you know, if you spoke to, you know, any of the people that really play heavy and Canon driven storytelling, you know, the guys over at Mar, I got gals over at Marvel and, and, and Lucas and stuff like that. It's always that crazy balance between the, you know, love of the past and the Canon and

[00:48:18] doing something that actually is new. Uh, and then I can, no, no one knows the answer here. We all know what the problem is or the, or the fun is, or the, the, the high wire act, but you know, that's a six, seven, six, seven, sorry. I was doing that. My daughter, my daughter, my daughter, my daughter, my daughter flashed in front of my head for Greg, but, um, but, um, yeah, I think, um, our showrunners do it. Excellent. They do. Um, so as a director, uh, you know, you got a script that, that has it all in there. Uh,

[00:48:48] it has the Easter eggs. It has the moments. Um, um, but don't try to do someone else's work. Do your own. And, and I'll, I don't even know if this is a question, but to, to add onto that, now that we're in season four, man, the cast knows those characters. And it is, it is like just watching. We were talking earlier about children growing up and, and becoming fully

[00:49:14] formed individuals, just, just them. You, you didn't dwell too much on the heavy emotional impact of what the captain was watching, but man, I felt Ortega's really being conflicted about what she just saw with that planet blowing up. I saw Scotty dealing with some of his own crap on screen in the background. They're like, it was, it, the, the cast is there and I'm so excited for the next 15 episodes that we have. Cause it's like, okay, this is not just the cast now. This is the crew

[00:49:42] of the enterprise right now. And they are here and it's, it's just beautiful to see. It really is. And, you know, it's so great to think that we set out to accomplish what we always did. Right. This is always supposed to be, you know, uh, uh, uh, a five year journey. Right. And, um, um, to go five seasons with this cast, watch them grow, watch them come into their own

[00:50:07] and to like, really have, you know, again, I, I, I truly believe seasons four and five are our best. Um, uh, as, and personally speaking as a director, uh, my, you know, uh, I love the, I love the finale of season one. I gotta say, I love that, but I still think my best three episodes, uh, are definitely yet to come. Uh, the, the C the, the, the, the three,

[00:50:33] the three directing episodes that, that I think are, are the best, uh, are, are the ones that are still yet to air. So I, I, I, I'm super excited for these next 15 or, uh, as at there as well. So excellent. And not only you were director, but you are, uh, just after this episode drops.

[00:50:51] I appreciate it. Thanks guys for, uh, asking and helping me plug it. So yeah, I mean, it's, um, it's really a Star Trek book, uh, in some ways, right? So it's a nonfiction book, obviously it's about, it's a how to guide about virtual production. So I don't think it's just luck, uh, or, or

[00:51:20] coincidence that Star Trek became the show to perfect virtual production. Um, you know, uh, virtual production is a new technology that requires teamwork and understanding and excellence, uh, and sort of a belief, uh, in a greater purpose to make it work, which of course is in very many

[00:51:46] ways what Star Trek is about. Right. Um, and again, we, we were tasked with launching this show during a pandemic and not only could we not go to Morocco or Iceland, um, uh, we couldn't even go to the parking lot down the street. So, uh, strange new worlds was the first ever show designed from day

[00:52:09] one to use virtual production exclusively for world building, not because we wanted to, but because invention, invention is the mother of necessity, right? We, this show that the success of this show was literally tied to the success of virtual production. We, and nobody else had done what we had done. And what I mean by that is yes, the Mandalorian had used it before us. And yes, we owe a tremendous amount of gratitude to the Mandalorian. And I had a meeting at Lucas,

[00:52:38] uh, not that long ago. And I spent a lot of time thanking them for what they gave us to, to start off. Um, and the recipe that we came up with, which Mandalorian never did because they didn't have to do is that we took virtual production and instead, instead of it being a sort of luxury item for a very expensive show, we made it the episodic engine of our series that we took this technology.

[00:53:07] We made it work for what in many ways is a traditional CBS episodic schedule, the same type of schedule that you would make as traditional procedural or drama or other show with. We took that technology, we wrangled it, we Mac perfected and maximize it and made it work in a schedule that works for traditional television. Uh, and we were the first to do it. So, uh, sometime of this is about

[00:53:34] season four, right when I was doing this episode, like I said, over the summer between or the break between season three and season four, you know, what I was doing for our show every season is I was creating internal guides for our crew. I was every season. I created a production guide, a virtual production guide for our, all of our guest directors and for our production designer DP. So I was sort of in charge of, you know, uh, uh, pushing virtual production forward. Jason Zimmerman, JC was in charge of our virtual art

[00:54:04] department. I was in charge overall of virtual production and bringing virtual art department into that. Now, what, when we realized that, you know, we, it was really our time to flex and, and, and by, by flexing, I, we talked about in episode one of season four, you know, we had, you know, four unique environments, 20 pages, all on virtual production. I realized that like, you know what, this is really the way of the future. Like the, we're the only ones who know

[00:54:33] this. And, and, and by we, I'm also mean, you know, Tunde and the team over at disco and, and, and academy, because we were using virtual production, like a studio, like a digital backbott already. We had three shows that were sharing assets, sharing know-how, sharing a volume, we're working together under a single system. And I was like, wow, this is really like, everyone's talking about why productions leave in Los Angeles, why all these sound stages are empty,

[00:54:59] why everyone's leaving to go shoot locations elsewhere, places that are cheaper. Like this is the, this could be the solution, but nobody knows about it. And what people do know about it is that they're scared of it. Like they, it's, it's, it, so what I, that was, I, I not soon thereafter directing episode one of season four, I got asked by the DGA to go speak at the DGA digital days.

[00:55:25] And I was on a panel there with some people from game of Thrones and, and, and Lucas films. And I realized that even at that panel, again, that like, we were so far ahead of everybody else. Like what we were doing was like truly groundbreaking. And I was at, and after this panel, there's these two really incredible directors and authors, Mary Lou belly and Bethany Rooney. And they've written

[00:55:51] what sort of the quintessential book on TV directing. And they came up to me after this panel and said, you know what, like, this is this incredible, we could not believe what you were saying. Would you write a chapter for our book? I said, absolutely. I'd be an honor to. So I wrote a chapter for their book and I sent it to them thinking nothing of it. And then I got a call from the publisher saying, Hey, this is incredible. Would you write a book? And I said, well, you know,

[00:56:17] I actually kind of already have one because I've created one for internally for our, our show. Um, and I can send you that. And if you think that's, you know, of course it's not 200 pages and blah, blah, blah. But if you think that's sort of like in the ballpark, then I probably can't. Uh, so I sent that to them and they said, absolutely. We want this. You're hired. That's where it's the book is greenlit. We, the board approves. And this is where it gets funny. So the plan was to do it

[00:56:47] after to write the book. I guess I have a, you know, I had a job, right? I had a little job directing and executive producing Star Trek. Uh, so I didn't have a lot of free time to write a book. So I said, okay, I'll write it in my hiatus between seasons four and seasons five. And so that was going to be from July to like, you know, February. So of course what happens is, you know, paramount sells and we get a, uh, a shortened season five. And the only way

[00:57:17] that season five is going to happen is if we actually do it concurrently. So we don't get a hiatus. So we go straight from season four into season five. My time to write the book is totally wiped out. And here's me thinking like, you know, Star Trek is the center of the universe because of course it is. Uh, so I called the book publisher and I'm like, Hey guys, you know, uh, bad news. Uh, we just got, uh, greenlit to start right away. So I won't be able to deliver the book on time.

[00:57:45] And they're like, uh, it was like a long silence on the phone. And he's like, read your contract. I was like, Oh, it's one of those. So I literally had to figure out, I begged and pleaded and I got like an extra two months. Um, but I kind of, I, I, luckily the book, um, is really just all the insight and, um, knowledge that the team at Star Trek, strange new worlds imparted to me and imparted

[00:58:15] to the show. Uh, it's, you know, it has interviews with Glenn Keenan, with Jason Zimmerman, with, uh, uh, Jonathan Lee, Henry, uh, has interviews with all of our key people on the show. So it's a great way for, you know, anyone interested in production, especially virtual production. Uh, and also anyone interested in Star Trek and sort of, you know, look, Hey, you know, art imitates life a little bit here.

[00:58:41] Like here's a show about innovation and, and the future. Uh, and on that show, uh, those very people actually created the future of potentially of, of TV production. Um, so that's sort of the story of the book. Uh, it comes out August 12th. Um, I have a few speaking engagements, um, before that I'm doing a, um, there's a really great conference. I think it's August 12th through 14th. Um, it's the Televerse

[00:59:09] conference in downtown LA, uh, through the TV Academy. Uh, and we're doing a panel on VFX. Um, and it's going to be myself, Henry, Jason Zimmerman, um, some old, I can't say names yet, but some old school Trek people back from the, the days of modeling. Uh, so what, what we want to do, we want to talk a lot about virtual production, but we also want to talk about how we got there, right? So the, the, the, the

[00:59:35] beginning of models and miniatures, uh, the transition to green screen and post VFX, and then that transition finally from green screen, post VFX to virtual production. So, um, that's going to be in mid Jan, I said, mid August in downtown LA through Televerse. Um, and that'll be a real fun Trek event. Very cool. So what I'm hearing is you have written the book that ostensibly be cut could

[01:00:01] be called the first book in a series of dominoes about how to make a holodeck. Like you're writing yourself into the, into the future history of star Trek right now with this book. Cause you're talking about making a holodeck here, man. So well, good work. Well, you know, we had so much fun with that in Frank's episode and you know, there was like, this was one of the things I wasn't successful at, but like the, the, um, I was trying to explain to Akiva that the virtual,

[01:00:28] that the volume when it's in standby mode looks exactly like a holodeck. It has like the numbers like one, two, three, like, it's like, and it has the grid. It's like the grid. And he's like, no, no, no, no, that won't work. That won't work. But the ultimate design of in the VFX that we use, we didn't shoot it on the, on the, on the volume, but it actually ends up looking very much like, um, like our volume when it's in, in, in standby mode. Um, so it is the holodeck, right? And that's,

[01:00:57] what's so great about it. Um, you know, I, what the book's really trying to do is trying to tell people, Hey, don't be scared of this. Uh, this is, this is viable. Uh, and in, and, you know, in production, we usually say, you know, better, cheaper, faster, pick two, uh, that's sort of the golden rule. And with virtual production, it's pick all three, uh, it's pick all three, but the caveat is you have to learn something new, right? But look, Hollywood didn't become the epicenter of

[01:01:24] the entertainment industry by standing still, you know, it, it got there by being, you know, innovators and, and, uh, and, and taking risks and being the best there is. So that's kind of also, you know, one of the themes of this is like, Hey, like this isn't easy, but it's doable. Uh, and if, if everyone gets behind it, then, you know, we, we can, you know, we can start seeing the type of world building you see in, in Star Trek, strange who worlds in lower to medium budget shows.

[01:01:49] That's cool, man. And it, you're right. That it fits with the ethos of the show anyway, like making things better than they are right now is hard work, but it can absolutely be done. And there are people that can show you how to do it. That's really cool. I'm excited to read that book. I, yeah, I, I went and reserved a copy already. So. Oh my God. You guys are the best. Well, and also I'd add to that and that the, the trick to virtual production and it, you know,

[01:02:16] at first what everyone was scared about, just like they're scared about AI, they're scared about being replaced. You know, our production designers, like, and our directors, like, no, we're going to get replaced with digital artists and, you know, uh, you know, actors were going to get replaced by, you know, digi doubles and, you know, and none of that's true. In fact, all those craftsmen are more important than ever. The hardest part about virtual production is working together as a team is to say,

[01:02:40] Hey, there, there is a way to do this, but it has to follow up, uh, uh, uh, a pattern and a formula. And we have to do it together and we have to collaborate and we have to communicate and we have to work together because if anyone silos any part of this, the worst thing that can happen is, is, is not saying, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm lost. You know, we, we, we, we developed a, uh, a term called the bell ringers because it became so important. And they said, look, everyone has to be a bell ringer.

[01:03:09] As soon as you see anything in the pipeline that doesn't look right, ring the bell and you're not a narc, you're not pointing the finger. You're not, you're not getting some, you're, you're saying, Hey, there's something I don't understand. And it's, if I don't understand it, that's a problem because I'm also in this pipeline, uh, because we're all learning a whole new way of doing things. I mean, and by all I said, virtual, uh, visual effects, wasn't learning a way, a new way of doing things, but they were learning a new place to do it. Basically in your pipeline of a TV show, prep

[01:03:39] production post, we took the post VFX department and we moved them into prep. So this team that usually worked only with themselves and had exclusive access to showrunners now has to listen to me all day long. They have to listen to Glenn Keenan all day long and listen to Jonathan Lee all day long. So the beauty of this is think about this way. And this is just by sort of by happenstance for the first time

[01:04:04] ever in a pipeline, the first time ever in television pipeline, the best visual storytellers are all working together in the same time, your VFX producer, your production designer, your DP, your director, and your showrunner. They're all in the same pipeline the whole way through just that right there. It gives makes the ultimate image, the final pixel that much more spectacular, man.

[01:04:33] I just to pick two names from that list. I could absolutely listen to you or, and Glenn Keenan talk all day long, like have had a ton of fun and learned so much from both of you just by sitting with you for an hour. Now we do often ask directors for this series, like what's your favorite shot from this episode? But you've kind of, you've kind of stepped on your own tail here because you already told us your favorite shot from this episode and we love it. So we're

[01:05:02] going to dig a little bit deeper and I don't know how much you can say, but I know that you have seen all the cuts of this episode. Is there a scene in this episode that we didn't get to see that you wish we could have? You don't even have to be specific. So for the first time ever on this show, the answer is no. This was a slam dunk cut. So I want to give a little bit of a shout out here to

[01:05:29] Andrew Coutts. So Andrew Coutts is our, one of our producers and editors and director. Of course, he directed the, you know, the Gorn and Ortegas episode. So Andrew edited this episode with me. And when he delivered the episode to Akiva and Henry, like they literally signed off on the episode.

[01:05:52] I mean, it was, it was the closest thing to just, you know, straight up. We love it. No notes sort of environment. And of course I'm exaggerating a little bit. They did go in and some tweaks and things, but it was, uh, nothing got moved. Nothing got cut. Uh, you know, nothing had to be reshot. I mean, it was, uh, what you see that final cut is 90% of what was delivered in the director's cut.

[01:06:18] That's so cool. I'm, I'm so rare. I mean, I think, and, and, and, and especially rare knowing how specific our showrunners are and how much time they spend in post really reshaping episodes. I mean, they're, they're very, very good at it. Um, uh, to the dismay of many directors, uh, uh, uh, but ultimately to their benefit, you know, it, you know, again, that's as the producing director,

[01:06:45] I, I try to, to help them see the upside to, Hey, you know, we all win here. Um, but, um, but yeah, it was, um, there's nothing that was left on the, uh, the proverbial, uh, edit room floor, uh, that, um, that has any value or consequence. Um, uh, and not a single scene got left out. Nice. So in your mind, I'm not asking for any Canon, any, any, like make, make this the,

[01:07:13] the hard and fast rule, but in your mind, toe to toe, both ships, fully functional enterprise versus Martians who wins. Oh, enterprise. I kind of felt that way. Like, yeah. Martians have some cool tech, but yeah. Well, you know, what's so funny. I spent a lot of time thinking about that. Um, and if you look at how I lit the enterprise, I turned all the fucking lights off because I didn't want people to think, well, what about this? Or what about that? Like I didn't want, and like,

[01:07:41] cause we saw at the end, how quickly they caught up to them and how they actually could have made that final shot. Right. Like, and that wasn't even at anywhere near full power. So, so I was really, really worried about that the whole episode. And I was like, Oh shit, people are going to like, we're, we're like, we're like, we're cutting her own hero down to the knees. So I was like, Glenn, we have to turn off every light that has to be like to shut everything off. And that's like, you know, that first scene after they get, you know, grabbed, you know,

[01:08:11] they walk into the, uh, uh, into the ready room and literally every light is off. Even those little chicklets, like Pelley is like trying to make the weird things work that she can't be like, you know, and those things fucking don't do anything like, you know, like, so like she can't even get the bullshit to work. It's the big stuff doesn't work. Um, that was, that was super key, uh, for us because, because, because our ship kicks ass that's just, you know, there's, there's, uh,

[01:08:37] the Martian ship was cool for a design. The, um, I actually liked the design better myself of the, um, the doldrum ship. Uh, and I, I know it, you know, paid homage, maybe too much soda Prometheus. Um, but, but I really liked, um, I really liked the design of that ship and I liked how, how, you know, like, you know, again, like when I was thinking the whole time when Cassell is saying that, you know, the bugs, you know, they're, you know, they don't, they don't, they don't reason there.

[01:09:06] They, all they do is feed, you know, I'm like, well, they built a pretty fucking rad ship, you know? Yeah. No, they got a civilization. There's obviously engineers. Yeah. Yeah. It always comes back to somebody designed a ship. They've animated matter in a warp core. So they got something going on. Yeah. They got a radium. And, and I like Jesse was saying, it was just cool to be like, Oh, okay. We're putting all the pieces in place. It's beautiful. Um, I, and I think, I think personally it really comes through like that on my rewatch today. I was

[01:09:34] like, okay, this comes through this Pike knows Pike knows. I felt like I could knock the ship out of the sky if I had everything at my disposal that I normally have, not that it feels like he wants to, he obviously doesn't. That's not the captain of this ship, but he's like, I could solve this problem so dang easy, but I'm trying to talk my way out of it. And it's just not, not going the way I'm

[01:09:58] hoping. And so, yeah, it, it, he was very flappable in this episode, I would say after everything that went on with, with Patel and it, it works really well as an opener. Oh, great. I love this episode, man. I love this episode. Yeah. I love it too. It's one of my favorites, um, of all the episodes I've done, not just a star Trek because it is to, to weave a giant ensemble tale of action adventure,

[01:10:24] and then have these really great moral quagmires that really leave you thinking like, you know, I, I, I, it was one of the shows, like I said, I, you know, part of my process is to, to read the script so many times and to spend so much time storyboarding that I start dreaming it. But like, this is an episode I kept dreaming afterwards. And, um, you know, I kept thinking about Cassell, uh, I kept thinking about the bugs, um, you know, and, um, it's, it's something that,

[01:10:52] that didn't leave me. And, um, you know, uh, you know, maybe we'll talk about it again. Yeah. Yeah. It's strange to be sitting there grinning at the end of an episode where 95% of the life in our solar system is dead by the time the episode's over. Like, all right, well, it's still a feel good episode. I don't know how to explain it. Well, so, so you, so you totally understand what I'm talking about when I was like my temptation to lean into the darkness, you know, like, like, it's like, but no, like, like, let's,

[01:11:20] let's get Pellia in the, in the ready room and, uh, have her fucking give us some zingers, you know? Exactly. Exactly. No, it's, it is wonderful. So Chris, thank you very much for, for joining us for the first of a couple of times this season. We really appreciate your time and we super appreciate everything you've done to bring strange new worlds here and across the finish line next year. Thank you for everything, man.

[01:11:48] Thank you guys. And I just want to, um, if you don't mind real quick and just, uh, want to say thank you for, um, starting this podcast for our directors. Um, you look this, this, you know, it truly is the honor of my career to do this show and, and, and no, uh, no discount to the writing and to the acting because it's the best writing, the best acting, but, but TV directors often get overlooked. Um, and I, I really appreciate you guys taking the time

[01:12:15] to, uh, to, to really, uh, trying to spotlight on our directors, especially season four, when I think we're really kind of, we're really in the zone and take getting some big hits. Uh, it just means a lot to me. Uh, and, and as the kind of guy who's responsible for the directors that I know it means a lot to them. So just thanks, thanks for doing this and anything I can do throughout the season, uh, to help, uh, with it, let me know I'm, I'm, I'm always

[01:12:43] available. Thank you. We, we really appreciate it. Yeah. Well, thank you again for joining us and, and rushing off your boat. Hopefully you can get, get out and get back on the water before it gets too dark there. Yeah. Yeah. Cap, cap, captain fish is gonna go out there and, uh, find the doldrum planet on my criss crap. Get some, uh, some Martian stardust in me. Excellent. Excellent. Thank you very much. All right. See you guys. Have a good night. Bye.