PRIME DIRECTION - "Off-Hour" with Dan Liu

[00:00:00] This is Cameron Harrison, and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction. Pro tip, when a director tells you to break a leg, he doesn't mean it. Except this time. Is this thing on? Hello? Hello?

[00:00:20] Hello and welcome to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction, where the directors of Strange New Worlds tell us how they keep your favorite episodes from becoming a disaster. Even when they're supposed to be.

[00:00:45] John and Jesse are just pinned down at work right now, but they'll be able to pull themselves together for the next interview, I'm sure of it. Which leaves me here to welcome to the con, the man who's traumatized our characters in Memento Mori, Lost in Translation, Shuttle to Ken Fori, and now, Off-Hour, it's Dan Liu! Hi Cameron, thanks for having me. Thank you so much for coming on. We've been wanting to talk to you for a while now. In fact, so much so, my first question is not even about this season.

[00:01:12] I do, if I may, want to go back to Shuttle Ken Fori a bit. Oh yes. Because one thing I loved about that episode, you used sunlight in a very unique way. You used these shafts of like filtered sunlight in the way shadows are usually used in horror movies. Like I felt this tension because I couldn't quite see what was behind the actors' obscured things. I hadn't really seen that before. Maybe it's a technique that's been used elsewhere, but can you talk about like...

[00:01:40] Well, for, you know, how we get our own special theme of the year, kind of theme of the season type movies. And with Shuttle to Ken Fori, it was very much make a zombie with action and a friendship story. So, you know, those were kind of my three paths I delved into. So you take a little bit of what you can from each. And I'm very familiar with the zombie world because I kind of got my start on a show called The Walking Dead. Heard of it.

[00:02:07] So, you know, we did a bunch of zombies, but we also had a big hand-to-hand action sequence and then some more fighting zombies. So to kind of keep the zombies spooky, we really wanted to tell this world where it was shafts of sunlight poking through the bush and everything. Also, because of the writer's strike, we had to shoot it not exterior that was originally planned, but it got delayed to the winter. And so there were no more plants that were alive.

[00:02:35] So, you know, the greens department did a massive job and kind of created this walking path that was like, had all this foliage inside the studio and a lot of evergreens that they amplified to make look aliens. And then Benji, our DP for that episode, he really helped bring the light and the sunlight through those plants and keeping the shadow, especially since we wanted to hide the skeleton, which is like the first 3D skeleton we've seen of a body, a half of a Klingon.

[00:03:05] Mm-hmm . In any Star Trek, which that was very exciting, just, you know, in terms of delving into for the lore and the fan part of it and, you know, building that out. And so a lot of elements relied on darkness revealing different things. It wasn't quite full horror because it doesn't have the pace of a horror movie like, you know, let's say the recent episode that Axel did. Sure. Yeah.

[00:03:59] Yeah. I mean, like I said, it would have probably even felt more epic if they didn't have the writer's strike because that was so crazy when we're like, okay, you're on hold until like the strike is over and then they come back. Nice. So by the way, remember how we talked about this? Yeah, it's going to be a little bit different. Toronto and winter. Yeah. Figure it out with your team. Of course, they're so supportive there, but at the same time, you're beholden to the logistics of it.

[00:04:24] So as the director and you, you have to try to make it work with the team and tell that same story in a very different situation. Well, speaking of adapting to best laid plans, not going to plan. I think that leads us right into off hour, both the episode and perhaps the production of it, according to Bill Wolkoff, who we've also spoken with. But let's just start with the beginning. Like, how was this episode pitched to you and what excited you about the project?

[00:04:51] Well, two things, Poseidon's adventure, and then it was Nurse Chapel's episode. So, you know, everyone kind of gets their moment to shine and certain episodes. Yeah, people will have a couple lines or some important moments, but usually they'll have one episode where it's very much like the actor recognizes it's their episode. Mm-hmm. So for this one, you know, she did great drama for me even back in season one in Memento Mori.

[00:05:19] She is a tremendous actress. And I think in the war one with Mbenga, you really got to see her as well. But she's always sort of been in the background. So it was great to like really focus on her bringing it.

[00:05:32] And I think that translated, you know, when I was in my first couple days of prep there on the weekend, me and Jess had like a long morning coffee session where we just did a page turn of the script and just mapped out all of the emotional beats that we would talk and agree on for the character. And that really showed me her dedication to this episode. And it definitely showed on the screen.

[00:05:55] Yeah, we've seen her professionalism in the series before where she's very good, calm under pressure. We've seen her be a badass in fighting. And we've seen her a little messier personal life and emotions. And I think this is the first time we've really seen kind of those overlap in this way, like her passion and her professionalism kind of becoming one thing.

[00:06:17] I mean, let's jump to that question then her especially and Mbenga. I mean, I think everyone in this episode is just doing an amazing acting job. They I mean, they never not, but like, they're doing some very unique and specific and intense things. And in this episode, how did you help them reach those places they had to get to?

[00:06:38] Well, a lot of it is, you know, a lot of talking for a couple people rehearsals, but some people just surprise me on the moment the cameras turn on, especially Babs for Mbenga. Once the episode gets on the coldness starts permeating the ship, as things are shut down. And he did this like, chattering while with his dialogue, that was so amazing in person. And it was just completely believable, even though we're in

[00:07:08] a hot studio room. Yeah, and he just seemed like he was like freezing. And it was crazy. Just seeing that and that, you know, I prepped a lot. And you think about, you know, what the character might do, and you prepare all these different scenarios for them. And that but when he does that, you're like, that's amazing. Keep doing it. Yeah, I mean, in a series of jaw dropping performances, this, this episode appropriately ripped my jaw right off the skull. Because yeah, you're right. It's it's his performance that makes you feel that

[00:07:37] that that numbness like we've all cut ourselves a little too deep. And you've kind of feel that tingling numbness take over and like, Yeah, I mean, that, I think maybe Bill probably mentioned that this, his character story was inspired by this one subway. Oh, yes. Episode. And it's where a guy was trapped in the subway and with his body, like cut in half, essentially, the whole episode, he was just talking about his story. And the main character was trying to keep him like conscious.

[00:08:06] But ultimately, it was a more tragic story where he there was no way he could survive. So this was kind of like keeping Benga in that space. But actually, with us, we're a little more optimistic in certain ways. And they managed to save him.

[00:08:23] Indeed. And yeah, I mean, I was talking to Bill, like how brilliant I just thought the table was, because it kind of keeps him upright and very stoic in ways like, like, it's very subtle, like the blood around his waist and the look below. And so it's just enough for you to know that, like, this is not good, but like, I don't have to turn away.

[00:08:41] Well, it's funny, because with in all of that, when it's written in the script, you know, everyone's not fully aware visually of what it will look like until we get to do our testing and like props, production design, set design, like everyone kind of got their hands on and we did kind of tests with 3d model mockups or stuff they would build just to see if this is believable.

[00:09:03] And then we would get our cameras in there. And it's like, this is what we're gonna see. It's gonna work, guys, they're gonna make the script like really cool. But it is, it is the writers, I love that they just go for it. And then for us, we're just reading and we're like, Oh, okay, we're gonna, especially when it's like, the ship loses inertia, and suddenly everything is falling. And then of course, none of our stages move. So then I think with that, our stunt coordinator, Neil, he did this thing where he worked with the actors.

[00:09:33] And kind of showed them how to shuffle across the ground as if they were falling. And like, they would start training them on an incline until they got lower and lower doing the same movements until it was flat. And so with Melissa and Celia, they looked really good doing it. So we kind of just like feature them and move the camera up in a way so it looks like they're sliding down. But it was actually just all stunt coordinator work with the actors.

[00:09:59] Yeah, I had a chance to visit the set. And watching that was like, I don't remember it being on a gimbal. I don't think how did they do this? So did and like you see people like sliding across the floor? Is that just being pulled on a wire?

[00:10:10] Yes, the stunt people that slid was on a wire. The actors were actor movements. And then of course, we had special effects, they would direct their pyros in the direction I wanted it to go. And we would move the camera in that regard. And then in sickbay, you know, I was like, we need something to like, fly in the foreground to indicate that way. And then like, Oh, we have a couple likes, movable desks they use. And then that, you know, I've used in other episodes.

[00:10:35] Great, let's have that just slide and go all the way to the door and fall. And that would be special effects pulling with a string and making it happen. So yeah, lots of coordination, timing, and special effects.

[00:10:49] One of the things I was really impressed rewatching is so much of this episode relies on all the pieces coming together, it relies on the music and the cutting and the cinematography and like these stunts, right? Like, there's so much playing pretend they had to pretend that they were sideways on the bridge. And the one I think that really comes across is the port galley grab sequence, where like, it is so nerve wracking. And I'm thinking like Poseidon Adventure the whole time in my head.

[00:11:18] But then, like the filmmaker part of my mind is like, well, on set, they didn't have the music, they didn't have the rapid cutting, they didn't have the sound effects. They just had Rebecca Romijn, like first year acting class, pretend there's a weight on your back. Like what was it like on set doing some of those things? Like, is there ever like nervous, like, is this gonna work in posts?

[00:11:38] Well, I think because I came from a post production background, I see right away, if it's gonna work for me. And I think that's what's most important as a filmmaker, you have to make it work for yourself. And so first, you know, we had those three moments, we had the glass bottle breaking, we had the chandelier piece dropping, that was VFX, because it's a little too dangerous for to be near actors.

[00:12:28] Oh, okay. I've been working on something, just roll the camera rehearsal, and I'll show you. And I'm like, okay. And then, you know, at that point, you have no idea what's gonna happen. But she we told her the path she needs to get to. And then she in her home, or wherever she thought of practicing this, she did it. And it's just like, kept on going.

[00:12:49] And then when that's happening, as a director, when I'm watching the screen, music's going on in my head. And I'm imagining the camera shaking more. And it's just all these things. I'm just watching like, oh, this is really gonna work. And yeah, she just had something in her head, and she just executed it. And it was great. And then of course, the leg breaking was a whole stunt thing, and a special effects. It was her with like, this prosthetic piece that like broke off over her green leg.

[00:13:16] So yeah, how did you have more like stomach churning bodily dismemberment in this episode than the zombie episode? Well, I think it always when it affects our main characters, because in season one, you know, it was Rebecca, again, it was her strapping on her stomach. That's right. The doctor had to, like take extract out. And so some of those moments, it's like, it's affecting people. We know our legacy characters. So every time you're like, oh, no, like, that always brings about a bit of a stomach turning.

[00:13:45] Yeah. Well, like I told Bill, like I was watching this episode. This is my favorite episode of Strange New World so far. Like it's hit on every level. Disaster is also my favorite episode of TNG. So maybe I'm just a sucker for a good space disaster episode. But like, as soon as like Mbenga screaming and trying to get the table off him to kill himself, like I'm just a hot mess for the rest of this.

[00:14:07] And at the end, like, I was like, oh, God, they're going to kill Mbenga. I'm thinking through the previews. I'm like, I don't think we saw him in any other shots. I was on set, but I don't know if they told me he was definitely in season five. I forgot he was a legacy character. So you guys did your job really well. Like when you're designing that moment. And like Bill said, not everyone remembers Mbenga's a legacy character. But are you like, you know, we just have to go for it and like act like people don't know he's safe? Or I mean,

[00:14:34] Well, I mean, you don't think about that because you think about what's immediate in your story, right? Because what's happening for the actors is what their character knows. And, you know, you try to make, I mean, they try to and I try to make everyone forget what's happening later on, because you have to live in that moment. And in that moment, as he's pushing, I'm like, you know, the camera, find his hands and like, back up to his face right now. And like, you know, some of our guys are very intuitive about doing that anyways. And then we're just like, okay, and you're just like full focus on the monitor.

[00:15:04] Like, is he gonna live? What's gonna happen? And then, you know, you have Jess interrupting him, like, no, he can't do this. Like, you just have to really be in that moment. And I think like, the more focused we are, the more we can execute these with the viewers also participating with us. So it sounds like you're pretty instinctual when you're shooting the not too mapped out ahead of time.

[00:15:25] Well, I think I probably have one of the most extensive preps on the series, because just from the my background in post production, but I allow myself a lot of room inside that. But, you know, my general thing when I go into a, an episode of the show is on day one, I'll have my initial list of every single shot that's needed for the episode.

[00:15:49] And that'll help me prepare with my DP. And then I'll have a list that I'll go start storyboarding on day one. And by the third day, we'll have a VFX budget for that storyboard.

[00:15:59] So it's like, you know, everything I map out very early on. But then within those parameters, there's a lot of room to adjust because sometimes actors will do something different. And I usually have like three different plans in case that happens, because sometimes they'll do something that really surprises you like Rebecca's crawl. Sometimes it's just two people standing around and talking.

[00:16:22] And you have to figure out progressively how to make them different each time. Otherwise, you get into that boredom of we call it ping ponging and editing, which is where it's like, it's the same shot, and they're talking and you're going back and forth. And it just gets very boring and long dialogue scenes. So I want to make sure the whole episode starting from day one, I know it's not repetitive. And none of the scenes are shot so that people are like, Oh, I saw that just like a few minutes earlier, it's going to be boring.

[00:16:52] Well, we appreciate all that work for sure. How about with the I mean, another reason this might be my favorite is because I am a sucker for a really stylistic split screen, which we get so many great sequences of in this episode, how meticulously planned out were those? Or did you find them in the editing?

[00:17:08] Well, so that's really funny. That one, you know, when this episode was done in real time, along with the subway episode, it very much was inspired by 24. And as we know, in 24, they do a lot of split screen phone conversations. And so when we were shooting people on the phone, I mean, just as a rule for myself, I always try to shoot people on opposite ends, so you can cut back and forth and feel like they're in a dialogue.

[00:17:32] So you know, when person's talking on screen left, you would have someone else on screen right, like the person they're talking to. Because otherwise, if they're in the exact same frame, sometimes it feels a little awkward cutting between them. So that was just my editor brainwiping. But then for the whole like split screen aspect, that one, our editor Andrew, just really took like one comment I had and went to town because as I turned in, like, you know, my cuts, I would just email him, Oh, let me know what you think of this, or Oh, I'm trying to do this on this.

[00:18:02] So let's think about that. Or Oh, this is a great piece of music I heard on the ride home, try using that. But for this one for I was like, Hey, so you know how it's like real time, like 24. And you know, in like the split screens on the phone calls, have at it, do some split screens on every single phone call. And then when he turned in the cut, and I think what was really brilliant was on some of his sliding split screens of sliding people in. And then like, even on the three people, he slipped someone on the top.

[00:18:32] It was just a really elegant way of doing those split screens. It wasn't in the script. None of our producers were aware of it at all. And it was really just like, Hey, Andrew, just, there's this thing, try it, see if it works. And he just made it awesome. Knocked it out of the park. Yeah, I love the sliding ones are great. There's one where someone's talking, then it starts sliding, but then it just slides to like the profile of the person they're talking to as they like shift the tone of the conversations. It's real good.

[00:19:00] Good. So Bill also mentioned like, back to the, the med bay of it all. He talked about how, how much like in this episode, anything that could go wrong did go wrong. He talked about like needing to redo and bang a scan at the last minute because he couldn't be twisted around backwards anymore. What other like challenges popped up that you guys had to overcome on set?

[00:19:51] Like whack.

[00:20:22] Brilliant. How to make it look like she was going through stuff inside a room. Yeah. And then she comes out and then we have to widen out and then she has to like hit the thing. And so I think a lot of those type of moments I can get people excited about because it's like planned way ahead of time, but it's going to look really good because it looks like we're just following her through this action.

[00:20:42] Mm-hmm. I was going to bring up that shot specifically. I like, I love that shot because we're following her and she's like having a complete meltdown. You don't know what she's going to do. And then you just stop and like, we lower to the floor and we're like, what is happening? What's going on? And then she comes back with an ax and it's like, I'm getting flashes of misery. I don't know. Like, and that was all just done because like, you didn't really have a place to put the ax. You just had to kind of go off screen.

[00:21:05] Yeah. I always wanted to keep it in one. And then the lowering was, I felt like if we just stay static, it might be a little boring, but lowering it to the level where she's going to hit it and seeing her feet. I think it was, we lowered it so that I could see her feet come out with the ax next to her feet. Mm-hmm. And then she comes back and we widen out. So there's like always kind of a purpose for each moment of a wonder for me, but it just seemed to me like that was the moment to do it. And I love this show because they're very brave and bold.

[00:21:35] And they trust me, I guess, in season one to do certain things. I remember, I mean, if we go back to all the way to Memento Mori, like Pike had this long VO, like really long. And then it comes right into the scene on the bridge of everyone talking. I'm like, this is like a 56 second VO. And then we timed it and it's like that 57 seconds.

[00:21:54] And I'm like, okay, what if we just had our camera operator on a chair and he just like rolled around the entire bridge so you see everyone, like what they're doing. And he, like, they just had him and his assistant camera pulled on a chair as he would like be shooting across the entire bridge for 56 seconds and land on Spock for his line. And so that was like, I shot some close ups if they hated it, but you know, they did, they kept it and that was what was in it.

[00:22:22] So, you know, I love that this show just goes for it and really, I think, trust their directors to do these kind of fun things for the show. And that includes Jess in the phone call, you know, it would be a lot of it was Steadicam because we wanted to be in her. And sometimes we wanted to get closer and a lot of, you know, that would just be on take two. I'd be like, that was really great. But when she gets to these lines, let's push in closer on this side of her face, then, you know, they would just go for it.

[00:22:51] And I think that is a kind of an example of a planned situation mixed in with seeing what she did and just modifying it and keeping those sequences alive. Because it is, it is interesting when you do a lot of phone calls, like it's one person on the screen. Yeah. Like, how do we make it interesting and keep it flowing and the intensity and action and drama of it all? Well, just because you're talking about Memento Mori, if I may, there's a very specific single moment of that episode I love so much. I don't know if you remember it.

[00:23:20] It's on Pike's face and it's just his performance when he learns that Ahura and Hammer are still alive. And it's like a five second shot and 12 different emotions go across his face. Like, watching that on set, is that something that jumps out at you through the screen? Or I mean... Well, it's funny because it's almost like, because he's so good, it's almost like you expect something brilliant all the time from Anson and he always delivers. Because that's the thing with being number one.

[00:23:49] You know, he's always the kind of the example. He shows up. He's very professional. He steps onto the set. He doesn't like, you know, he gives, he says hi and everything, but he doesn't like check his phone or anything. He's like, he's there and he sets the example that I'm going to work now. And, you know, when he does and he performs, it's always great.

[00:24:12] And I think in season three, season three in Shout Out to Kymfori, when he was having that big argument with Patel at the very end, that's when I really got to work with Anson in terms of like playing with the emotion and seeing what he brought. And he just gave lots of things to try and things to do, even for his co-star when he was off camera.

[00:24:33] And that's, you know, when you know the quality of your actors, when they can act to their scene partner to bring in new things to them, even when they're off camera. Because it technically, you know, you're not seeing them. No one else is seeing them, but they're still going to give their best performance because they know it affects the scene. You were talking about phone conversations. I noticed that there's a London phone box in Pelia's room this episode. I think this is the first time we see her quarters in season four, I think.

[00:25:03] Yeah, yeah. We definitely expanded a bit of the artwork in her quarters. It was pretty fun kind of just seeing how messy it got. Any specific items you or Bill insisted get put in the back? I definitely saw an old NES, which made my heart swell. Well, I think part of the tricky part is there's so many things that have to go through legal. Oh. That you're kind of just like flagging things that would be awesome. And the writers flag things and the producers flag things.

[00:25:32] And then you just show up on set and you get what you get. And, you know, they have a great team. Even our props team and not just the department head, but everyone that works under them. You have a lot of Trekkies there. So, I mean, for example, in season two, there was my episode for what Kirk drank. You know, they went back to an original series episode where Scotty was drinking the same drink and he drank Alien Under the Table. And they took the label and remade it for our show.

[00:26:01] And it was all because of one of the people in the art department thought that would be cool. That's awesome. So, I think, like, you know, there's a feeling of collaboration in the show where no matter what your position is, if you can contribute something that can up the level of Trekkiness, like, go for it. 100%. And then they get a point to that forever and be like, yeah. But, I mean, speaking of Pellia and Scotty, like, that was such a fun thing to do.

[00:26:27] Because also, you know, they work so hard on – Martin worked so hard on his character being very pessimistic. And she – this was really the trigger point because this is the first time we've heard anyone say Miracle Worker. And it's because Pellia gives Scotty that line, which, you know, we say because of this in the future, like, that's kind of his thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:52] I was wondering, during that very moving monologue of hers where she says that, did she ever slip into Valerie, Miracle Max's wife? Did we ever get a little meta outtake moment? No. I mean, she's very, like, on point and very good at keeping up the style that she kind of rehearsed and believed in. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:15] But with the Miracle Worker, she did eventually want to hear a couple takes from the real Scotty, like, back in the day. Oh, yeah. Like, from the original series. So that was kind of fun. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. No, I mean, she – often when we do have those scenes, what's great is a lot of our actors, if we can, we try to keep them on set, even if they're, like, on another – they're not in the scene at all because he's actually in the Jeffrey tube. Yeah.

[00:27:40] Which we built a special Jeffrey tube for this episode because normally in the Jeffrey tube, it's very small. Mm-hmm. And they just climb down to the hallway. But this one, we needed to feel him trapped in there. So they built this one. I don't know if you'll see it, but I'm sure I'll post the BTS of it where they built this tube suspended, like, in the air. And so he had to be hooked onto a harness for safety. Oh, wow. Because it was so high up.

[00:28:07] And so when he climbs in there, it really feels like you're in there. And, you know, they put different levels of debris on the top and bottom and sometimes blue screen if we needed to look in the distance. So it was a – and especially Bill Jeffrey's tube just for Scotty. Nice. Yeah, I mean, we were talking about with Bill that amongst all the disastrousness of the whole episode, there is this love story between a man and a spaceship. And it's genuinely moving.

[00:28:34] Like, yeah, his Impelio scenes, like, keep that, like, emotional roller coaster going. And again, like, he's playing Make Believe, right? He's in a Jeffrey's tube on a harness up in the air talking to someone and, like, having to touch a set piece. How do you get him to get to those, like, the true heart of that scene? Well, what's great about that scene is we – and he's game for it, so we could control the level of Jeopardy because we would just rain down shit on him.

[00:29:03] So were those real explosions above him? Yes. Oh, my gosh. They were. So we had Pyro, our special effects team. They would do these different levels of Pyro sparks. So on some takes, it was, like, the really big one. And on some takes, it was a small one. Some takes, it was, like, the one that's going to fall on you. And it's, like, you know, we've tested it with people and it's going to be safe. And it's, like, okay. And when they add, like, dust and smoke on there, it just, like, becomes a thing.

[00:29:29] So we added, on our level, camera shakes with the camera operators. But he had so much to work with just in terms of what was happening with special effects that I think, you know, it was pretty easy to imagine. And plus, it's not so fun being in a harness as much as, like, Martin is down for it. Because I remember even in season two, I think I had him in his first full-flying harness of his, like, time on Star Trek. And he was, like, floating up doing his thing. And he was, like, this is so fun. And I'm, like, just wait a few years.

[00:29:59] Yeah, I think it was Robbie Thompson was, like, yeah, Dan should not have a great time up in the harness being pressed to the view screen in Crippin Incident. Mentioned how, like, Ryan Gosling after Project Hail Mary has a different view on wire work. Yeah, but I think it was he really, like, honed in on each of the things that were happening on the ship to really help his experience.

[00:30:24] And then we, Emily, built the speaker thing he was talking to, had lots of different interactive elements. So he could, like, press on it to talk. He could exchange a chip to get a different frequency. So there was a lot of, like, work, actual work that the actor can see changed the lighting of it. So, you know, all those little details, I think, they can use in their performance. That's interesting.

[00:30:49] I mean, another thing that adds to at least the audience's kind of overall realism of this whole episode. I mean, the music does so much work to keep the tension consistent from one sequence to the other. How much do the directors get to work with Naomi on the score? We don't. Okay. Because, like, you know, when we do it, we always turn, like, especially for television, we work with our editors on a temp score. And so that's, like, our ideal of a guide track. And then Nami does her thing.

[00:31:18] And just for this show, she's been killing it. So it's always great to see, you know, someone take your guide track ideas and just expand on it and make it their own and make it really Star Trek. Yeah, this season specifically, I'm really, like, every episode, the music is so on point. And this one has, like, the ticking clock kind of sound effect that just keeps that tension going and going. Yeah. I mean, because we had it on the numbers coming down. So we always, like, kept that ticking, like, going on.

[00:31:47] And then it was a lot of talk with Bill when we were prepping. It's like, do we need to come back to more numbers here? Do we need to add in numbers or take away numbers from the script? We just came in from this. So it was, like, a lot of number shuffling as we were talking. Yeah. I mean, to ask about that. So the real timeness of it all, like, how difficult is that? Are you guys trying to keep track of time while you're filming or editing? Absolutely. Is it tricky to get it down to that? There are certain dialogue moments that call to, like, time.

[00:32:15] And you try to keep it more vague because you know things might change. But at the same time, there is a tension that you have to keep. So you're going to be, you know, roughly this is the time. And roughly this is the time. And especially, like, how long did it take for Spock to get up on the top of the Enterprise? And then he's, like, stuck under there with radiation poisoning. Like, how long can he survive? Like, what's Lon doing? And that was actually one of the really cool sequences that I had in my head.

[00:32:44] And they just executed it with special effects and the wall. Like, so cool. I mean, normally our virtual wall brings in some really cool different planets, different surface of the planet, different things. But this one was on the surface of the ship with energy shooting past it. That was the wall? Yeah, that was the wall. I mean, all the foreground stuff is visual effects, of course. Sure.

[00:33:08] But anything, like, that the actor is on and the background is all wall. So, you know, a lot of it is planning the wall. Because I remember the opening shot. I'm like, we have to show a statement that he's on the ship. So we're going to start, like, him coming at us. And the camera's going to wrap around. And it's going to go back, back, back, back. And then VFX will take over and show us really the ship. And so that is really the timing in my head.

[00:33:37] Because Francois, our camera operator, he's on the crane. He's doing this. And he's like, like this. I'm like, yeah, yeah, keep going back, keep going back. And then I'm just like, hold. And then because they're small enough where the VFX can just, like, keep on making that move. Okay. Then he holds. And, you know, Ethan's going to be doing his thing. And he's like, am I going? Am I going? I'm like, yeah, keep going. Yeah. And are the Mission Impossible handhold things, are those actually lighting up red and green as they? They did light up.

[00:34:04] They were controllable by a remote lighting tech. Oh, okay. And so they would be watching the monitor, seeing what their hands were doing. And then Emily gave it a kind of magnetic suction. And so there was a strip of metal. Because normally for sets, they're like wood, painted wood, because it's quicker and it's lighter and it's safe. But there was a strip of metal they could crawl on. And so that strip of metal they would clamp onto. So it would actually take effort to get across.

[00:34:32] But holding that position, they had to be on wires because you have to believe that they're out there in space and doing it. So it was actually like, especially Ethan was by like take five, he was just sweating like crazy. And everyone was getting like the fans on his face. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the wormhole in general, we've seen a lot of wormholes in Star Trek. And like this one from the outside when it gets sucked in to the neutrino particles zipping through

[00:35:00] is definitely unique and stands out. How did you come around to designing that? The particles and neutrinos and the initial round of design came because this show has to have certain sets, especially when it involves the wall, to be locked down two months beforehand. So, you know, that was probably one of the first things they finalized on the script before any of the other parts of the script was done. So they knew they had kind of this energy in the background of this wormhole.

[00:35:29] And then when I came on, then I got to storyboard like a lot of the wormhole itself with our design team and production designer, Jonathan Lee, and how it would interact and how it would fall through. And then we would talk about the different colors that would swirl in. So a lot of color talk and demonstrations and changing colors to see what would be good. And then our DP would get involved with those talks, because obviously, once you have colors and they reflect off things,

[00:35:56] then it becomes a director of photography thing of like what would look better. And so, you know, just the design of that look involved multiple departments coming together and really looking at the scenes, the storyboards, and just like what it would entail to make it look the way it does. Mm-hmm. This is a very tense episode. And like, as you were saying, Ethan Peck had to deal with like a lot of exertion crawling across that

[00:36:24] and everyone's got to look like they're just on edge the entire time. The worst things are happening all around them. What was the mood on set like? Because again, it's also just a lot of playing pretend to things that aren't there, which is always Star Trek. But I felt like this one especially, like gravity is attacking you. Now act. I don't know. I think I keep it pretty, I would say on set I'm generally very calm, but to the point.

[00:36:51] So I think when, what is the mood like on set? We're there to work. Yeah. We joke around a little bit, but that's more like, you know, someone makes a mistake. Ha ha. But yeah, no, I think because every day I come in, we have such like a hard plan of like, we're going to do this. Everyone jumps on board really quickly. There's not a lot of like, you know, playing around time, I would say.

[00:37:19] Like sometimes an actor has to find their place in the set. Like with Pellia, Carol, we were like, okay, this is your room. And, you know, if you start here and start maybe adjusting some of your paintings or something, make your way all the way over to here, to here, to where the hole is going to be. And so she would take five minutes just like going around and figuring out where her dialogue is. And then she executed.

[00:37:47] So it's very much like, this is kind of your area. Let's see what you do. And then we have a plan where certain parts are lit for you. And let's do it. Speaking of seeing what you do in your area, I heard that Scotty's like the one laugh out loud moment of the episode is Scotty's engineering. I don't know what accent that was, but like, I heard he kind of just improvised that on set where they're... Yeah, well, he's really fun.

[00:38:15] And then when he did it, I think he, yeah, he was sort of doing it. And I'm like, is that understandable? And then he's like, oh, do you want me to like make it more easy to hear? And then I'm like, I don't know. It was just having a hard time understanding it. And then he just took that and just like went with it. And then Bill was like, oh, let's have him do even more of that joke on that.

[00:38:42] And then Bill, like, I think gave him an additional like line on it as well. And then so by take three, it was like what you saw and it was just hilarious. And we're just like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. That's so fun. Any other kind of moments of just like finding something on the set, whether it was funny or terrifying or... It still amazes me when people can execute the script so well and just like... In terms of finding it, I think another fun Scotty moment was figuring out how he kicks the turbo lift.

[00:39:11] Only the lifts conveniently are a service. I do not believe kicking addressed the problem. Oh, yeah. And, you know, in all of those times, we do have like our stunt coordinator around like doing kicks, showing him kicks. And then I also have a martial art background, so I was showing him kicks. And then the take we ended up using, we just kept the one-er as he like talk, talk, talk and kicked and they ran off. And like, great. That was like, I think 20 kicks in from different setups.

[00:39:43] It works so well. And his pairing with the Shah is also just so much fun. Like the little buddy comedy in the midst of all the chaos. Yeah. And then, you know, there was another moment with Carol and Martin where at the end when they look at each other, it's kind of like in the script, I think it was they look at each other and share a moment. And like you hope for something, you know, emotional. And like she came and did a teary-eyed smile. He had a really genuine smile on his close-up. It was just, it was great.

[00:40:11] And that was kind of like, it's written because they don't want to tell the actors exactly what to do. But you shoot it and then you just see magic happen. So a lot of that does happen in terms of, it's not really finding it. It's more like they write something and give room for the actors to be the character and do something cool. Yeah. Yeah. I asked Bill, like, do you ever write anything and be like, this is unfair to the actors because every time they come through and knock it out, like, I mean, I watch it again, like Jess and Babs.

[00:40:39] I'm like, this is such impossible stuff they're pulling off and they are knocking it out of the park. Yeah. One thing I'm really proud of in this episode is introducing Dr. Boyce. Yes. That's exciting. Yeah. Did you have fun with that? I did. I mean, you know, we talked a lot about, you know, people that could be Dr. Boyce and someone Akiva's worked with before, Brian. He's a great actor. I mean, I remember seeing him in a lot of other shows and I'm like, yeah, if you guys

[00:41:08] like him, like, let's bring him in. And his intro was, you know, things are going down and Una calls him out. And I'm like, okay, well, we got to make his first intro shot, like, really cool. And so in my head, it had to tie in Una calling him out to him, like suddenly appearing, like in the chaos. So this one I designed was we would wrap around Una, be over Una to him, push into him, and

[00:41:37] then shit needed to happen in the background. And so to make that happen, I don't know if you see it, but in the port galley, there's these like V columns that are actually quite hard for camera people to get around. So, you know, Johnny, our dolly, he was really like trying to figure out how to move the cart around with the camera so that it can do this wraparound moment. And then it had to go on a slider to be pushed forward past Una so you can see him.

[00:42:03] And then to get it more chaotic, like we need people, as soon as he gives commands, we need extras running in the mid-ground frame and then something's missing in the background. And then I'm like, Chrissy, can we give you a line? And you tell people to go over and it's like, yeah. And I think my script supervisor is like, she was just over here like a few lines earlier. I'm like, it's okay. Like, you know, she could have moved over there. Yeah.

[00:42:28] So basically, I, you know, it was a shot where I needed three layers, the foreground of Una, the mid-ground reveal of voice and the background of La'an while like to have extra streaming to create the chaos of it all while introducing. And I think the first few takes, we tried this like trope of him standing up in the frame and it just looks so hokey and cheesy. And like, okay, you're treating someone there and just turn around when we cue you. And he's like, okay. And then like, that worked great. That worked great. Yeah.

[00:42:59] Yeah. I've been on that set in the port galley and anytime I see you guys, what you do in that set, I'm impressed because it's so much smaller than it looks in the show. And like, yeah, you've got a, just, just a wonder kind of camera swing through the whole thing. I'm like, I don't even know how they got that camera to move through there like that. Yeah. I mean, with our camera team, you know, it was one of those things where like, do we need to change? I moved this to like a steadicam or something on a handheld. And then like, uh, Johnny was like, no, no, no, give me some time. I can do this.

[00:43:27] And like, that's the, that's kind of the motto with the whole crew is like, you, you give them a challenge and they will do it, which is great. And especially for moments like these where you want it to feel iconic and new and fun and still keep it in the modern cinematic language, because I'm sure it would have been done just in cuts or different ways 20 years ago. Even. So you've been directing Stranger Worlds since episode one, you've stopped by once a year.

[00:43:56] How have you noticed the cast and crew grow over the years? I mean, they've definitely owned their characters as any shows. And I think part of it, I think I noticed it more with, even though I only worked with them in season two, you see it with Paul. Like he really grew into Kirk, you know, because that is something really daunting. Yeah. And yeah, Ethan, Anson, Rebecca, they've had this disco to already like play around with their characters. So they just got more confident in what they did.

[00:44:25] But with Paul, it was like, you see him really starting to embrace like what Kirk will become. So, you know, it's fun. And I remember in with Celia, she came into the show as like Grammy winning Broadway, like after. I mean, in our Memento Mori cast reading, she got her Grammy that day. Oh, right. Like a male.

[00:44:49] So, you know, she came in full theater background and she just embraced Celia. And you just saw this girl like grow with confidence to become the pre version of Uhura. Like it was amazing to see. And then with Martin, with Scotty, it's just, he's a fearless guy. He'll just go for anything. And it's just fun to see him, you know, just really develop depth this season. Yeah.

[00:45:17] With that, along with, you know, wanting to try everything. Yeah. He was our last actor interview. And then we saw him recently in the stretch of Las Vegas. And he's just such a friendly, warm, like down to earth guy. You can hang out with him and talk about stuff. And then watching this episode again, I was like, this guy can act because he is doing stuff up on that screen. Let's yeah. He's not just playing himself or anything like that. Yeah. And, you know, Melissa has always been a great, like taking hold of the pilot reins, but now she even like knows the controls of it more. Yeah.

[00:45:47] So even when a scene is happening, she'll just be there, like knowing what the ship is doing. And because I think season one, it was a lot more back and forth of like where her hand should be or what, what button she was pressed and her and Tim, he is our resident Trekkie technical guy. And so he would basically, you know, show her every, every step of the way. And now she's just owning the console up there. She like, you know, even when she's not on camera, she's like doing things with her hands. That's like what you would be doing.

[00:46:17] That's so cool. And she's so good. I like in the captain's chair in this episode too. We only got a couple of scenes of it, but she owns it for sure. Oh, and we got to do a little Lieutenant Rada. Yes. Yeah. I mean, like I was telling Bill, like it's not easy to tell Anson Mount, Hey, don't worry. I got this. And like, so like she certainly popped as a character. I had to check with him. I was like, is she okay? Is Rada okay? And he told me she's a legacy character actually. Yeah.

[00:46:44] Well, it's, she was a legacy character and you know, it was a different time then, but now we could actually have someone ethnic playing her. Right. Yeah. So that was nice. Yeah. I'd love to see more of her. Well, Bill, speaking of, I wanted me to ask you a very important question. Where are the best places to eat in Toronto? Oh my gosh. Toronto is such a food city. I just, I think, you know, seasons one and two was COVID lockdown. So I didn't really get to explore it, but from seasons three, four and five, I've just

[00:47:13] been like loving Toronto. And I've met some friends from other shows there and I've taken my family out there a few times. And, uh, one place that my favorite place in 2025, uh, was Mel M H E L M H E L. Okay. Yeah. It's a great little like, um, modern Japanese Korean izakaya. Nice. And it got a lot of recognition in awards recently and it's like a pretty new restaurant.

[00:47:42] So, uh, they're hitting it out of the park. Nice. When we were there, we mostly just say that the Dindy's next to the stages, but we'll, we'll try to venture out next time. Well, I have one final question for you, Dan, in this episode of amazing shots. Do you have a favorite shot from off hour? Favorite shot. I'm like, gosh, I don't think we prepped you for this one. So I'm putting you on the spot. That's a tough one.

[00:48:08] I mean, like there's a lot of moments that we found on the day where I wanted and we did things to the set that we couldn't do, um, before, uh, there was one example, even when chapel's going through the, um, things in the drawer, there wasn't anything in the wall there. So we spent 45 minutes carving out a space and I have this great picture of Francois and

[00:48:37] Johnny, like, you know, cramming into this tiny little like corner behind the wall. And like, they're just like happy and fun in there and having the camera up. And we got something shot that we've never gotten in sickbay. Then that's like something I always strive for is like, what haven't we done? This is four seasons in and you know, what can we do? But just in terms of like, you know, it's hard to beat that Spock shot, intro shot of

[00:49:03] him showing him crawling on the, uh, enterprise with all the energy streaming past him because it is like one of those big epic shots of star Trek. It's a star Trek shot. Yeah. It's a strange new world shot specifically, just the colors. Speaking of Spock real quick, what was, what was your direction for when he spits up the blood, uh, when he's all burnt up at the bar? Cause it's a moment I love and I think I know what's going on there, but what, what, what was happening in your head?

[00:49:33] Well, you know, he, he had radiation poisoning. So I think we didn't need a whole lot. Cause once he got his makeup applied, he's like, can't see out of one eye. Right. You know, the prosthetics already did a crazy job with him and then he was very hot in the prosthetic. Okay. So they gave him this thing that, and it apparently tasted really bad too. So, you know, we only did like two takes of it cause he's like, this is really gross. He had a hole in his mouth a long time. Like that's a decent shot before he coughs up.

[00:50:03] You don't cut to the cough up. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, it was always in the shot list, but I, you know, he's just talking like, okay, you're, you have this, you're going to spit it out. And he's like, okay, I hope I don't have to do it too many times. Cause it was one of those moments. It's like, it's showing how badly injured he is, but then it, it also feels like that's his way of being like, Hey guys, I, I, I, I know the information you need. Yeah. He needs it from me somehow. Wow. Even though he can't talk like that much, he needs to be able to communicate.

[00:50:30] And that's the great thing with Spock is like, there's always the mind meld. It's always that, which Bill told us like on the day, I guess Ethan was like, I've got a glove on. How am I going to do this? And Bill's like, don't worry. He did it in the first movie that with the glove. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah. No, I mean, there's, there's lots of lovely talk about that. And you know, if it wasn't fine, we figured out a way for the glove to come off, but we didn't need to, thankfully. Dr. Boyce cuts it off. Yeah. Well, yeah.

[00:50:57] But just before we wrap up anything else I didn't ask about that you want to say about this episode or, or scenes or shots that just didn't make into the final for whatever reason, but you'd like to share. Well, I, there was a few more aftermath scenes with, uh, chapel, um, that had some great performances and Dr. Boyce, uh, actually comes and picks her up at the end. But because of the VFX of the coldness, I think, uh, it didn't make the cut budget wise. Yeah.

[00:51:27] It sounds like that would have been a great cherry to it ball. But like, like I told Bill, I don't know. It works really well as it is. Like I didn't, I wasn't missing it. So, yeah. I mean, that, that's the thing. Sometimes you think about like scenes you shot and you're like, Oh, it would have been great if they had that in there. But I think it came together like so tight that it was like, Oh, you know, it's a very great complete episode. I mean, I'm very proud of it. I'm very proud of our cast and crew, uh, on it because it is like one of those things

[00:51:56] where you go in there and you, it's a disaster movie, you know, like this is our opportunity to really have that disaster movie on Star Trek and make it affect each and every member that's on there. So that was really exciting. And I mean, we didn't talk about also Lieutenant Asha. She got a lot more in this, or Cadet Asha. Cadet Asha. She got a lot more to do and her like Vulcan, Vulcan-ness of it all was a good counter to Scotty. Scotty, who I think is like the most human of the crew members, right?

[00:52:26] Like if you're going to pair like human chaos next to Asha, like he's the one. Yeah. And she was very pro. Like it was great. She was just excited to be there and just pulled off the Vulcan-ness like so well. She's been knocking out of the park so far this season and I'm both eager and scared to see what happens to her considering what happened to Gamble last season. But, uh... Well, I mean, it's a little different storyline. I assume. Do not rip out Asha's eyeballs, please.

[00:52:58] Yeah. Well, great. I mean, I'm glad to know that you're proud of this episode because you should be. It's absolutely like a classic, I think. An instant classic. And I look forward to many more watches of it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on and telling us how you navigated the disaster of it all. Yeah. No, I mean, it's one of those things where I think because of the history I've had working with this cast and crew, like it was actually quite...

[00:53:27] It was not a disaster, shooting a disaster movie. Good to know. So, yeah. And I'm excited to see the rest of the season because one of my favorite episodes, my favorite episode of this season is yet to come. Oh. And then, yeah. And we shot it back to back with season five. Yeah. So then when that comes around... Sounds like we'll have you back on then. It's a very fun season as well. Looking forward to it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Dan. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:53:58] Thank you. Bye. Thank you....