PRIME DIRECTIVE - "Like Chronitons Through the Hourglass" with Anna Dokoza

[00:00:00] Hi, this is Anna Dokoza and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Open Pike Night, where the directors don't cut to commercial. Is this thing on? Hello? Hello?

[00:00:33] Welcome to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction, the series where we find out how hard it is to make a great episode of Star Trek, let alone a satisfactory B-minus episode. I'm your host, John T. Bold, here tonight to speak with an A-plus producer and director. With me, the president of the Snap Zoom fan club, Cameron Harrison. Cameron Harrison. Oh, sorry, here, my fan son, let me turn that off. Oh gosh, let me button this up. Sorry guys, sorry, I'm not ready yet.

[00:01:00] And Jesse was supposed to be here, but he just received word that he is Barack Obama's son? And well, he has to go deal with that. We're excited to talk tonight with a producer and director who has experience creating everything from quirky indie music shows to police procedurals, FBI procedurals, ER procedurals, CIA procedurals, and now a soap opera. Please welcome to the Open Pike Night's stage, Anna Dokoza. Ah, yay. Hi, gents. How's it going?

[00:01:30] Very good. Very good. We are so excited to talk about, like, chronitons through the hourglass. Well, you just mentioned fans. This might be the only Star Trek episode that we actually used fans. I don't know if you, you know, the very back end of the credits. We shot the opening credits, but they were the closing credits. I don't know if you guys saw that, but we... We... I almost missed them, but I did see them.

[00:01:57] You know, we got everybody on a podium, had their hair glow back, and just sort of like, had them in the blue screen so that it feels like the opening of a soap opera kind of thing. And it was really fun. And we played all the theme music from all the soap operas. Oh, nice. So as they were up there, you know, it was like, Days of Our Lives, being on the Restless, and One Life to Live. Like, it was all just like, sort of to get in the mood. It was excellent.

[00:02:23] That must have been a fun day. My favorite part is how Pike is still out of character. He's the one who's like, what is happening here? Yes. Yeah, totally. It was really, really fun. Since you brought that part up, I was wondering, like, was there ever any talk of that being the opening credits for the episode or putting the commercials in? It absolutely was. Okay. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was just like, it ended up being a particularly dense episode. There was just like so much material that we just had to kill some babies, you know?

[00:02:53] And it was, I, you know, and I was happy that at least it made something. Do you know what? It was sort of intended to be the top. And we had slightly longer versions, and then we had a shorter version, but this was awesome. And that's why we don't have Reese in the opening episode, because it was originally intended for the front so that you don't give it away, you know? But yeah, it worked. It worked really, really well. Yeah. Before coming into Strange New Worlds, what was your history of Star Trek?

[00:03:19] It's just a viewer, you know? Like, I didn't sort of really go beyond that. I always enjoyed New World just because I really liked the cast. You know, I just thought it was like such an interesting group of people. And I enjoyed watching the sort of variety of how each episode just like tackled a different thing. So I just thought it was a really cool show. So just as a fan. Oh, so you didn't grow up watching Star Trek very much?

[00:03:45] I did not, you know, which feels really odd. But I don't know, like growing up in Australia, if I suburbia, if I just like missed it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I am old enough not to have everything at the fingertips. Like, if you don't watch live TV, you didn't watch live TV, you know?

[00:04:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:51] So I definitely watched soap operas when I was in high school.

[00:05:00] So it was super mind-blowing to have Deidre. Like, I did, I was aware of her. And I mean, she is soap opera royalty. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't, you got Susan Lucci, but like, she always plays a villain. Whereas Deidre is just like, just got a glint in her eye. She's always like, just been wonderful. And I just, I just loved that we had her for this episode.

[00:05:25] Yeah. I have not watched many soap operas, but I went and looked up her credits. I'm like, oh, 6,000 episodes. Okay. Okay. That's crazy. And she's still, like, she's still on the show. It's not like she's retired. So we actually had to fit her in between her commitments on Days of Our Lives.

[00:06:11] Uh-huh. And she was like, why don't you come on the show? This literally happened just like a few months ago. So then she kind of reentered the conversation again. And of course she will through this, but like, she's just like a rock star. She's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I wasn't familiar with her, but I was quite impressed with her performance in this episode, being able to span like the soap opera nature and then those gutting, like naturalistic scenes at the end. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:39] Strange New Worlds chooses its directors with, usually with like intention for the episodes they're being brought in for. Why do you think you were tapped for this episode? You know, I did a series called Kevin Can F himself, which was a really interesting AMC series created by Valerie Armstrong that was like, once you hear about the show, you're like, how has this show not existed before?

[00:07:00] It's a multi-cam, single cam hybrid. So essentially what it does is you meet a husband and a wife and like the nuclear family. And it feels like a multi-cam. The jokes work. The jokes are strong. It's a multi-cam. And then the wife steps off the multi-cam set into the kitchen and it turns into single cam.

[00:07:19] And what you realize is the wife is a deeply unhappy woman in her marriage and that her husband is a total asshole. So it's the story of this woman, but it goes back and forth between the two genres, you know? So multi-cam, you know, they're shot four cameras looking in. It's like the way soap operas are shot, you know? And single cam is obviously the way that we sort of take for granted the world, you know?

[00:07:44] But sitcoms are a different vibe and it was a wonderful challenge from a directing point of view because multi-cams are fairly standard. You know, you've got cameras unlike soap operas, four cameras pointing towards the action. They're kind of a wide and a close up and some moves and pans or whatever, but you're not ever going behind them. It is literally like shooting a play or like shooting a stage, right? Yeah.

[00:08:11] So what you essentially do is you take the fourth wall away completely to shoot a multi-cam or to shoot a soap opera. It just doesn't exist. They're performing for the front. The cameras are like a theater audience in a way, you know? But once you cross into the single cam, it's a 360 world. So it was super crucial for that show, those transition shots. It wasn't just like you're done and then she walks in and it's another one.

[00:08:35] Like that had to be continuous and kind of really smooth to feel like it's the one world, right? And that the multi-cam thing is a state of mind. So Star Trek had never done anything that involved taking a fourth wall down. This was, it was interesting because I didn't realize this was like very scary to them. Like those sets have never had a fourth wall taken off, like ever, ever. There was like a lot of conversations with the art department.

[00:09:01] In fact, the episode was moved to the end of the season because I think they were, there was, I don't know, there was just like so much stress about this episode. And I was like, oh my God, this episode is amazing. Like, I don't know what we're stressing about. This is going to be amazing, right? But it was super interesting to go into like, you know, Pike's quarters and pull out a wall, you know, that we've never kind of really just looked in that direction.

[00:09:28] But then you also have to like, make sure that the furniture makes sense, you know, like everything that is like on another wall just doesn't exist, you know? And when you're shooting, you know, the bar, it's all shooting in that one direction. We no longer have that wall, you know? So it was, it was just like a different way to approach a set and many sets that have been shot so many times before.

[00:09:52] And it was an adjustment for the crew because we had a combination of crew that had done multicam and then crew that had never done anything resembling soap opera. So it was kind of like, what's happening? Like, this camera's just here. You know, we had like having a very static camera that moves minimally is interesting. So you were, did shoot this with multicam and that's why you had to remove the walls? Yeah. Otherwise you can't fit the cameras in. Yeah. How many, how many cameras would you have at a time?

[00:10:21] Four cameras. You would always have four cameras unless it was smaller than you could kind of fit in three. If you couldn't fit more in the space, you know, like let's say Pike's kitchen is super tiny. You know what I mean? And if you're shooting in one direction, you can only fit so many cameras along that line. Whereas the whole medical section had so much more space, you know? It was huge. Yes. But you never looked back. Do you know what I mean?

[00:10:47] Like half of that bay was not on camera because you never looked back the other way. You only ever looked towards the back room, you know? So it's tricky. You know, it's tricky from a performance point of view, a blocking point of view. You know, I think a lot of these actors like loved it and really got into it. And when I've done this before with single cam actors who haven't done multicam, because blocking is really simple.

[00:11:13] You're not doing too much because the truth is you're cutting to an actor when they have a line. Otherwise, you're not on them. That's kind of how multicam works. Think about Seinfeld. Think about friends. You're not looking at Phoebe really unless she has a reaction or she's talking or any other character. You know, it was sort of trained to sort of just really see somebody when they're talking or reacting.

[00:11:37] So really, there's a lot of time where actors are really not doing anything, which is like death for an actor because they like to keep busy, you know? So it's a different pacing. And also, you can immediately tell when something's not landing because timing becomes so much more important, right? You can tell on the spot. And it's not a thing you can fix in post. Like, you have to fix it there.

[00:12:01] If it feels like a joke's not landing or pacing is not right, you have to fix it, like, right there. And of course, we had Bill and Dana. Oh my God, Bill and Dana, like, wrote the best script. Like, they covered all the elements of a soap opera. They just, like, did they hit all the beats, you know? Like, the villain, the twin, you know? Everything. Everything, everything is in there.

[00:12:26] And it was so wonderful to just have them on stage to, like, bounce all that off. And, like, how did that feel? I mean, I just, I love having writers on set because it just kind of guarantees that you serve the script really well. So are you saying you feel you wouldn't have gotten the soap opera feel if you brought in one camera and set it up here, got the shot, moved it over? Oh, it would have taken four times as much. I mean, there's just, it would just be the most, it would have been incredibly inefficient. I see, yeah. To shoot it that way, you know?

[00:12:56] And also, I think with this, you want the real reaction, like, you want to get both sides and all sides. So, because you're essentially almost like line cutting it. You know, you can see it unfold. It's like this camera, this camera. Traditionally, there is a person in a control room going, okay, A camera, B camera, A camera, D camera. You know what I mean? We did not do that. More like an event, like a live event. Yes, absolutely. Okay, interesting.

[00:13:22] And what we didn't do either is, I mean, soap operas don't do this, but multicams do. We didn't have an audience. Right. Like, on Kevin Keneff himself, we did have an audience. Okay. Because the actors performed differently. Yeah. But soap operas don't have an audience. So, they just, like, hose it. They just, like, hose scenes down. And they also do, like, very few takes. You know? We did more takes just because of performance and jokes and whatever. But we still moved at a much faster pace.

[00:13:52] And also, this might be, like, the only Star Trek episode for them that didn't have, like, huge amount of visual effects. Sure. I was wondering if this was the bottle episode for the season. Oh. Well, in essence, it is. Yes. Yeah. But, like, it was so weird to be doing an episode and not having any of those things. Because even the establishing shot is static in the full 90s glamour. You know, usually the ship is rotating and it's beautiful and all the things. We did not have that.

[00:14:21] You know, everything is flat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of flat, how do you achieve that soap opera lighting? And was the enterprise sets conducive to that? Yeah. I mean, look, that Glenn, the DP, is, like, it's just more. Do you know what I mean? Like, what soap opera is, is just more. Okay. Like, you know, the trick is you want more but not unflattering.

[00:14:48] But if you really look at soap operas, they're not necessarily flattering. So it's kind of like taking some liberties because you still want it to look good. But you want it to be, like, have a slight smacking. So there was just, like, I think it was also exciting in that way. Like, to light things that are not ordinarily lit that way. The crew really got into it, you know, just because it was so different. But the lighting was definitely different, you know. But we also had, what was great is the whole Trelane world was in the real world. Right.

[00:15:18] So that, I mean, the first shot with him, which is on purpose, is from his back. Because you haven't seen it. So that would be single camera. Was that all single cameras? That's right. Yeah. Ah, okay. But single cam means, like, normal. The way that you know Star Trek. You know, multi-cam means. Like, that kind of will it frontal thing. But when we went into the control room, that's why all the shots have movement. That's why we're at the back of him. That's why we have profiles.

[00:15:46] It just becomes a different, it just becomes the world that you know, you know. And then we go back to this, like, manufactured, produced, like, kind of story that he's creating for his thesis, of course, on humans. Of course, the character we follow the most is Anson. Yes. Yeah. Well, Anson Mount's Pike, who, you know, he brings so much gravitas to Pike. Yeah. We've seen him enjoy playing outside-the-box versions so much, whether it's on a holodeck or, like, a supernatural hallucination or half Vulcan.

[00:16:15] But I don't feel like we get the audience avatar Pike a lot that we get in this episode. I mean, maybe bits and pieces, but this is a whole episode of him kind of being on his back foot, being like, what is happening? Yeah. Yeah. And the one around me is crazy. How did you kind of work with him to find that version of Pike? Well, what's great and what I love for Anson for this episode is, like, he's really funny. You know, he really understands comedy. I don't know that he gets to do enough of it, you know.

[00:16:41] And I think he was very excited to do this because it is funny. And he gets to be funny and he gets to be kind of physical, you know. Like, there's just, like, a lot of elements. So we definitely sort of sat down and went through the scripts and the scenes and, you know, just kind of, like, chatted about sort of the timing and the tone. And the main thing out of each thing was because I think it's exciting to see him be on the back foot. I think it's exciting to see him be confused.

[00:17:10] But also, like, you know, there's parts where the audience might be a little bit ahead, which they feel like, oh, you're being such a silly boy. Don't you see what you're supposed to figure out here? And then when he eventually does it, you're like, oh, okay, great, great. He got there. He got there, you know. And when he does, it's so emotional and so huge, you know. But we actually had to shoot the emotional stuff first. Oh, wow. Which is always hard, you know, to sort of, like, just straight go there.

[00:17:39] And he, I mean, like, his performance at the end is, like, mind-blowing. So I think it's really hard not to kind of be absorbed by that performance and really feel what he's feeling because he definitely just, like, gets right in there. And, yeah, it was the first scene that Deidre and him filmed together. Wow. So, yes, it was, like, definitely backwards. But, like, it was incredible. Absolutely incredible.

[00:18:06] Well, let me ask about that then because I was just wondering, you know, when you come on and you have to shoot, like, a naturalistic emotional scene like that versus when you're coming in to shoot, like, the soap opera scenes, the comedy scenes, do you kind of set a different mood on set or do you just kind of? You do. You do. But, you know, I think the tricky or the assumption is that soap operas are not emotional. And the truth is the soap opera only works if it's emotionally grounded. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:33] And that's why they are successful because at the base of every soap opera is the truth and people can relate to it. It might be, like, wrapped up in, like, a bad twin or, like, a secret pregnancy or a secret marriage or all these kind of outrageous absurd stories. But they're always emotionally grounded. And I think that was the trick for this episode is that, like, we really go out to some observed levels and I'm your daughter and living donor heart. You know, there's just, like, such insane stuff.

[00:19:02] But the truth is they all come from their individual fears, desires, wants for themselves or for the character, you know. So, yes, it's a different kind of mood when you're joking and doing all the things. But it's, like, a sneaky emotion in there, whereas when you're really just doing an emotional scene, no one's confused about it. Like, we have to get there. You know, there's, like, a respect for accessing that emotion, you know.

[00:19:28] I mean, it's really impressive and always sort of mind-blowing for actors to be vulnerable in that way, you know. I mean, for me, when the scene where his daughter walks away, you know, and he's kind of left there is so, like, you know, it'll just give you, like, your hairs will rise on you. Because it's just there. You can see it on his face. It's like he's a father who is dealing with all of that, like, alternate reality that is his emotional reality. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:57] And I'm an emotional wreck from the moment he walks in and sees Juliet to the end of this episode. Oh, my God. Isn't it amazing? It's so good. I'm so happy to hear that. I was affected by this episode in a big way. I mean, yeah, like, that story, even, like, the Embanga story is like, oh, this is, you know, joking. It's like, but this is the Embanga story. Yes, that's right. Ortega comes consoling him. Like, oh, we are doing so much emotional heavy lifting for the last three seasons here. Like, my God.

[00:20:24] But it's hiding in plain sight. Do you know what I mean? Like, it sneaks up on you. You think you're like, oh, this is funny. Shaking hand, you know? And next thing you know, you're like, oh, wait, what? What? What? Yeah. Did you have to direct Babs to badly shake his hand? Like, I can't imagine he's bad at doing a tremor. Yeah. It's like, worse, worse. We did have conversations about, you know, what the level was. But it was funny because there'd be times, you know, because I was asking him to, like,

[00:20:55] you know, I was doing snap zooms into their reactions, staring off into space, you know? And at one point, they would just be like, what am I doing? What's happening? Like, this is nuts, you know? But so enjoyable. And then I think it's like once they all gave into it, it was just like, yeah. And like, Cyborg and like that whole storyline was secretly like one of my faves because they just like, they just like gave it, you know? They just like, it was all the tension.

[00:21:24] And like, you're like, are they going to fight? Are they going to like hook up? Like, what's happening here? This is so hot. He's wearing leather pants. Like, it was just like, it was like a whole thing. I loved it. And in fact, there was a scene that didn't make it, which was like Cyborg saying goodbye to her and they were like staring into each other's eyes and being super vulnerable. But it was like basically eye fucking. I don't even know if you can say that. But it was like, it was amazing. They did it. It was so good.

[00:21:52] I'm so sad that wasn't like in the cut. But they just really, truly incredible chemistry. And it was truly, truly fun. But then, you know, that is why she can have that emotional reaction at the end, which also was like beautiful because she sort of had a self-realization about her reaction and what it meant about the breakup. And I just thought that was amazing. She's incredible. They all are. Like, everybody brought such a different element to it, you know? Like, Rebecca's a pro.

[00:22:22] Like, Rebecca knew how to find the camera. In about two seconds, like, because she's done multicam before. So it was just like really awesome to watch her just turn. And it was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. And how fun was it working with Reese Darby? Oh, my God. So I haven't worked with him since Flight of the Conchords. Okay. So I had seen him, but we hadn't actually been on the same set. And he was the last thing I filmed. So I had to wait the whole episode to get Reese.

[00:22:50] And we just had so much fun because he's such a ham. And he's so great at improv. So you would get everything that you get. And then you would want, like, you just let him go. You know? You're just like, what else you got? Like, what's happening? And he had, like, such the elaborate costume. And we did a bunch of scenes with him. There was a scene with him and Anson that didn't make it. That was, like, in the hallway where they, like, had a fight.

[00:23:16] Which was really good because, you know, Anson decides not to play the soap opera game. You know? And Trillane kind of loses it at him. So, you know, they had great interactions. I mean, even the scene where he pops in, you know, is, like, super fun. I love Reese. I think Reese has timing and just, like, a talent and an ear and a wit that is really unique. And he makes me laugh so, so hard. I mean, definitely everybody on Flight of the Conchords makes me laugh.

[00:23:45] But, like, he extra made me laugh. Like, we would, it would be really difficult to not ruin a take when he's in front of the camera. He's amazing. I love that guy. Can I ask real quick? What did you do on Flight of the Conchords as a producer? I was a producer. I did not direct. Yeah. So, I was a producer. It was just, like, a magical, magical time. You know what I mean? Like, it was just, we were a small show in New York at a time where small comedies were made and nobody questioned it. You know what I mean? Yeah. We just did it.

[00:24:15] And it was wonderful. And you got to shoot music videos all the time, too. Oh, my God. Well, you know, it's so magical because even now, actually, the guys did a show in L.A. I think they did a few, but just, like, in May, they did a show at the Greek, which is a wonderful venue. So, it ended up being a bit of a reunion because Reese was there as well. And Kristen Schaal and Arch Barker, like, it was just, like, a full. And they went up on stage and did a little bit.

[00:24:44] And then just seeing them all afterwards, it was like no time had passed, even though it's been quite a significant amount of time. And they're just, like, lovely humans who continue to be hysterical. And you just kind of hope, like, please keep doing more stuff because you guys are so, so good. And the other big guest star we were talking to earlier is Deirdre Hall. Oh. How was it working with her as far as the soap opera? Was she advising the cast on soap opera stuff? Did she have time to do that?

[00:25:14] She did not just because all the actors were, like, very quick studies and it wasn't an issue. But, like, that lady knows how to find her light. She's been doing this for 50 years. 50 years on the same show. You know, she knows how to, like, and even, like, I was laughing so hard at her because we took a photo. And she's like, no, no, not here. And, like, would just, like, carry me over to light. And I was like, wait, that's my job. I'm the director. But, like, she knows light better than I do. That's for damn sure. And the nicest, nicest human.

[00:25:43] So professional. Like, just old school professional. Knows all her lines. Knows, like, showed up on, like, all of it, all of it, all of it. You know? And she had great costume. And she's just, like, she literally, she, like, has a literal glint in her eye. I'm not, like, trying to exaggerate. But if you look at pictures of her or, like, even seeing her on a soap opera, it's like she has, like, a ding. She's like a cartoon character. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. Love her. I mean, I just love her. Yeah, she has a presence.

[00:26:13] I mean, again, I wasn't familiar with her work. But as soon as she was on screen, I was like, oh, this is somebody. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Which, I mean, just the entrance, I was like, oh, I need to look up who this is immediately because this is royalty. I'm guessing soap opera royalty. I was just going to say, she is soap opera royalty. Like, a thousand percent. I mean, honestly, if you ask ten people on the street about Marlena from Days of Our Lives, like, nine of them will know about it. Man.

[00:26:40] You know, maybe not Gen Z, but anything beyond that. Yeah. Well, Gen Z, especially, among other Star Trek fans, have been asking for years where the counselor on Strange New Worlds is. That all these characters need to get in touch with their emotions in a big way. Did you feel any special responsibility knowing that this would be the counselor's first appearance and would be kind of answering a lot of those calls? I feel a responsibility for every character.

[00:27:08] So I didn't really want to be, like, laying on extra responsibility for that, you know? That's fair. I think that was going to take care of itself. Like, for me, I was just excited that we got to explore kind of the emotional depth of multiple characters as opposed to, like, an episode that really focuses on one character. You know, there's a lot of episodes that, rightly, you know, really kind of focus. But, like, this felt like it was a wide swath of emotion that kind of stuck everybody.

[00:27:38] So I feel the stress and responsibility just to make sure that's executed for all of them. But maybe I should have just worried about the counselor and not worried about anybody else. I would have had a different kind of show. Dr. Chivers talks about how emotions are at the core of a person's truth and that they don't always match up with reality. Would you say that's sort of the explanation of this soap opera format for the Trek episode? Is that how it felt?

[00:28:04] As long as the emotional truths are intact, the presentation can be kind of whatever the creators want it to be? A thousand percent. I mean, I think that's at the base. I think that's a success or that's the rule for any genre. I mean, that's why we like genre. There are some insane genres. Do you know what I mean? Like, okay. I mean, even Western can be outrageous. You know, even like all these genres. But we get attached to them or we get obsessed with them or we hate them.

[00:28:33] But if they're successful, the emotional truth is there. So absolutely. I think this was a great, like, this is like giving your cough medicine, but it tastes like the best chocolate cake. You know, but it's still cough medicine. So you've got to deal with it. That to me is like the North Star. No matter what is done. It's like, is this emotionally grounded? And does this feel like truth to the character, but also to their bigger arc and to their story?

[00:29:00] Because that's what you get attached to, in my opinion. Like, that's why you were ready to cry at the end of the scene. Because it was emotionally, like, really hit you in the heart. So you were talking earlier about some of the things that have been cut from the episode. It sounds like a number of maybe subplots had to come to make room for those core emotional arcs. Especially Ortegas' is the one I'm curious. It sounds like she had some scenes with people. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:27] Ortegas had this part where, like, as soon as Pike had to step down, there was a scene with her and Rebecca where she, like, is like, I can be your number two. Like, half a second after Pike left. Like, she wasted no time. And she was like, well, you know, I mean, I'm not going to waste a chance. She just, like, immediately got there.

[00:29:48] And there was a great scene with Jess where she takes Christine into the room as Spybok is crashing and says to her, I can bring him back. She pulls out a little suitcase of all microchips. And she basically has everybody's brain on the microchip. And she's like, I can just put this into anybody. Like, anybody. You know? And it's, like, so, like, out there and awesome. And she has this great glint from her eye.

[00:30:18] Mad Scientist Chapel is something I need. Totally. Right? And she actually makes a reference to it in the last scene. Yeah. But we actually saw, it was, like, this fabulous little case with, like, hundreds of little chips. Like, she had hundreds of, like, brains in there, which was really, really fun. And just, like, within Cup, you know, I also just love the whole, like, father-daughter story. The whole, like, you're my father and, like, would not be swayed, you know?

[00:30:45] And just, like, that completely made sense, you know? I just love the conviction that everybody believed the story, you know? It's so funny because, like, it's ridiculous. The book is blank. Yes. They clearly are not father-daughter. But, like, I've had those exact same conversations with my daughter. Like, I'm saying objective reality to you and you are getting angry at me. Yeah. Basically. Yes. Which was really kind of like that. But, you know, she has baggage. She has to sort out there.

[00:31:14] Like, everybody had a thing, you know, that they had to kind of deal with, you know? And Mbenga was a huge one. Then, of course, Spock just popping in at the end, missing the whole party, you know? But had to be there to make her realize what she feels, you know? And the single cam of that, again, like, going back to the way that it's shot, like, it was emotional. It was wide. You could see the door. You could pull back. There was a door. You could reverse, you know?

[00:31:43] It just becomes so much more cinematic. I mean, that's the difference. Single cam is, like, cinematic. And multi-cam is, like, not. Yeah. Maybe that's why the door transitions at the end really kind of popped out to me. Yes. And I bet it's... I'm just now realizing it's because the rest of the episode is so... Very intentional. Multi-cam. Okay. But also, it's like, it's an end of that chapter. Mm-hmm. You know? It's an end of another chapter. It was, like, a literal metaphor for what is happening with those characters. Well, thank you.

[00:32:11] Especially with the door punchline earlier in the episode. Yes. Door humor is heavily featured in this episode. Like, this... Yes. Giving Pike that little bit of humor moment. And then into just the devastating emotions later on. Yes. I'm glad he had the doors to deal with. Oh, there was a lot of that kind of stuff, you know? I think... I can't remember if we cut... Well, we definitely cut jokes. Because there was just, like, so much material. It was, like, bananas. So, why did those kind of subplots come out? Was it pacing or length? Oh, no. Just time.

[00:32:40] It was, like, the longest episode in the history of the world. Oh, man. It was, like, really, really long. I want this to be cut. Yeah, it was truly... Yeah. It's a streaming series. We could... No, I know. We'll take it two hours. Trust me. I argued it many times. But it was, like, truly... As scripted, we had a very, very long episode. And it all worked. And it was all funny. But, like, we couldn't have this episode be, like, significantly longer than the others.

[00:33:04] So, not being, like, a huge Trek fan growing up, did you have somebody on set explaining how important the Cybok, the stuff he was saying to La'Anne was? All of it. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, I was... The teacher for Trelane. Like, you are doing heavy lifting for 60 years. No, no, no. And by the way, it wasn't just because I didn't watch it as a kid. Like, I fell deep into the hole and asked a million questions and had people around me everywhere, like, constantly saying stuff.

[00:33:34] You know, Bill and Dana, like, anytime I had any question, whether it was a smart question or a stupid question, and there was lots of those, is, like, I had, you know, the well to access, you know? And there was nothing flippant about anything. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was really, it was dissected and thought about and really thoughtful. So I definitely had access. If I didn't understand something or I just had kind of a question about something, there was a lot of people that could be like, okay, let me walk you through that, you know? And obviously, Henry and Akiva.

[00:34:03] So the crew had to go find God one time. Yeah, exactly. No, you know? And obviously, like, I know all of the Star Trek Strangely World episodes incredibly well. And, you know, I was able to watch everything that was up to my point. And that was the joy of kind of being last. You know, I was actually able to watch the first six episodes with no problem, you know? So it was really, yeah. And it was like, it feels like Star Trek, every episode is important, like, to fans. And then, like, does something.

[00:34:32] But it was definitely an important episode. And I kind of was excited. I was like, this is good. Like, I get to, I don't know, it's almost like you get to focus on the nugget of what's the most important thing without the baggage, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Like, you get to the kernel. You're like, this is the most important thing. You know, where somebody, if they're really deep in the light, you get caught up in the details that might not necessarily matter. You know? I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:35:00] I mean, I know in the Star Trek universe, everything matters, but there's things that are more important than others. It's so well executed. Thank you. And to John's point, like, I mean, it's an episode that I feel like makes the finale of season three better. Like, it adds so much to that. Like, I haven't gone back to rewatch that sequence of Pike and Patel's life together again. But I'm sure it's going to hit so much differently after this episode.

[00:35:29] I mean, it makes the entire overarching plot of TNG better. Like, that does the Q continue. I'm starting to learn more and be like, oh, maybe we need to look at humanity more. And that's the whole reason. That's what the next generation is about. It's true. So, yeah. Like, man, we got Q here. We got Star Trek V here. Like, this is so much crazy heavy lifting in this episode. And there's so many snap zooms, too. More snap zooms than any other Star Trek episode. I know. Aren't they great? Aren't they fantastic?

[00:36:00] I was wrecked for the last third of this episode. But the first two thirds, I was clapping and cheering like I was watching it in a theater full of people. But I was just watching it here in my office by myself. I love that. That made my day. That's, like, making me so happy. And, you know, and that's, again, it's like that, like, sneaky. You know? It's the sneaky. This is the sneaky episode. You think it's like, first of all, it feels like it should be light and fluffy and shallow. And it's not. You know? Yeah.

[00:36:27] So, here's a question we also asked Axel, the director of the horror episode. Oh, yeah. Episode two. How do you decide how much Vulcan blood is too much Vulcan blood? Oh, my God. I love having this conversation because I've done actual, like, hardcore operations, you know, in drama, where you're, like, recreating body parts and doing all the things and having blood. And you've got to be medically accurate and all the things.

[00:36:52] So, the trick is, because it's a soap opera, you don't really want to see how the operation sausage is made. You're just insinuating how it's made, right? So, we never look in because that world doesn't exist. Also, I don't know that I want to look inside that. But the one way to sell is it is blood, you know? So, I was like, this blood is amazing. It's green. It's, like, amazing. I love this blood. So, I was like, how do I show this blood, you know?

[00:37:18] And I asked for a lot of gauze. I was like, if I have a lot of green gauze around, it really just does a lot of the heavy lifting. So, I get to set that day and we're doing the scene. And I'm like, where's the gauze? And they're, like, they're pointing to, like, a little tower of squares, right? Just, like, linen squares. They're, like, this big. And they're piled up.

[00:37:47] And they're, like, there's a gauze. And I was, like, this is not gauze. I don't know what this is. And I was, like, what am I supposed to do this? This is, like, squares. I'm just going to have squares of green around. And I was, like, I mean, like, gauze. You know, like, gauze? And without any irony, the prop person goes, oh, you mean earth gauze? And I said, yes, I would like some earth gauze. I want, like, fluffy. So, of course, we got it and we figured it out. And the fact that it's green.

[00:38:17] And it's, like, the more green, the better. But I just, like, had this, like, very unique experience that I would have nowhere else on no other set. And I didn't realize that I had to be that specific about asking, you know, for a prop. God, I laughed so hard. I was just like, oh, my God. It's my fault. I didn't ask for earth gauze. Earth gauze. I'm not familiar now. I also love that it really looks like Embeenga is fully, not gorse, bladdered, but, like, he's got a fine mist of blood all over him. Oh, yeah.

[00:38:46] What is going on? What did Embeenga do? Yeah. And it's so good. And at one point, it's also not in the cut. But, you know, when he pauses and thinks and makes the decision, there's actually an Ortega line in a bubble above his face that says, like, you can do it. But, you know, we had him for the longest time and then it, like, got changed. But, like, it made me laugh so hard I snorted. Because when we shot her, it was just so serious. You know what I mean? And it's like you heard the voice. It was, like, marvelous.

[00:39:14] But, you know, it still works, obviously. Oh, yeah. The voiceover is fantastic. Yeah. So during one of the most emotional parts, and I'm welling up because we finally see what wrecked Pike and we see Juliette's birthday in the book. Yeah. But another part of my brain is like, oh, there's the full Kokao Vin recipe. Did anyone on set make it? Have you made Pike's Kokao Vin recipe? I have not made it, but it was the full recipe. So maybe I should make it.

[00:39:41] But, like, I didn't have all the things in Toronto to make it where I was staying. Oh, fair enough. But I think this is a very admirable goal. So, yeah, maybe we should do that and give it a go. I think we should do an open Pike night, like, cooking episode. Everyone makes their own. We'll get some judges. All right. I will say, when you were talking about the removing the walls, Cam and I got a chance to visit the set for the filming of the final episode. Ooh. Bravo for how you use the space in the bar, because that is not a big set.

[00:40:09] And where you shot is not a big space. No. No. It's very tight. Massive. Yes. No problem there. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Seeing that. But also, his kitchen is so tiny. You know, that was actually really challenging. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I just, yeah. I was like, that's, but it worked beautifully.

[00:40:28] And, yeah, that just kind of sort of watching her disappear and that transition into him realizing that he's sort of back in his space and out of the thing was like, yeah, probably my favorite thing. Because it's just like, his fake reality really hits him, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:58] You know, the camera pulls out and you see the whole space, you know? And that's another important, like, Star Trek 60-year-long thing. Like, horrible things happen to characters. Yeah. And the next week, they're just pop back in. And this episode, she directly addresses Deirdre Hall. Like, she says, like, you do a space adventure and then on to the next thing. Yes. Man, people are going to be examining this episode for a long time. You think so? That's so exciting.

[00:41:28] After watching it, they'll be like, okay, it was a soap opera. And then, like, two days later, they'll be like, man. Yes. Holy crap. Yes. And I don't know if it was talked about with you on set, the Inner Light, you know, the TNG episode, the Inner Light. Yes. Wait, which one? It's where Picard lives a whole nother life and learns to play the flute. Oh, yeah, of course. Absolutely. I just didn't know it was called that. Sure, sure, sure. I mean, the whole time, I'm like, this is also a spiritual sequel to that episode. Yes. And I feel this episode makes that episode better.

[00:41:56] And that's one of, like, held up as one of the great TNG episodes of all time. But I feel like watching this episode, you can be like, we never saw it because it was TNG and it was the 90s and it was cable television. But, like, at some point, Picard had to go through the same thing Pike's going through in this episode. Absolutely. For the same reasons. Yes, absolutely. No, it is. It does a lot of emotional heavy lifting, I think. And also, like you said, I think it will hit people. They'll have to think about it, you know.

[00:42:23] Well, the thing is, like, Pike's emotional stuff will be front and center. But when they think about all the other things, you know what I mean? Like, some of the other stuff sneaks in. Yeah. You brought Cyborg, a character who lets characters mourn. Like, part of his whole story in the movie is, like, he's like, share your pain, your morning with me. Like, it's like, I can't wait to talk to the writers, too. That's the scene that did get cut. He looks him in the eye and says, share your pain. Oh, really? Oh.

[00:42:53] Because, like, I'm pretty new to Star Trek V. I hadn't seen it before just a few years ago. But, like, man, Ethan Peck is, like, this dovetails so nicely with the Cyborg that we know, the older Cyborg we meet in that. Oh. He's amazing. He's just, like, so talented. Because he was a little bit, like, this character's so out there. You know what I mean? It's like, he's so cheesy and suave. Like, I was like, I need your shirt to be open. And he's like, do you? I was like, yeah.

[00:43:21] I need, you know, it needs to be that kind of, like, vibe. Come on, Ethan. It's not like we haven't seen your chest. You can ask him. Those pants are not comfortable. You can ask him all about that. Yeah. We should give some credit to the other guest actor of the episode. And I forget her name. But Trillane's Proctor? Yes. Diane Johnson. She played Proctor. Okay. And she was so lovely. Because it's subtle, but she has to have that air. Do you know what I mean?

[00:43:48] Like, because there's, it's like, she's the only one keeping Trillane in check. Jack is running amok. And she just really had a presence that, like, her face sort of did all the work. And I loved how, through her, we are kind of, the way she's sucked in is the way that we are sucked in. Like, if you notice in the control room, she starts really at the back. And then she starts inching forward. And by the end, she's sitting next to him eating popcorn.

[00:44:17] And she's in, you know? And I think he kind of sums up the way that we feel about it when we're watching the show. So she really is kind of the way we are. Yeah. I mean, I was impressed with her. Because, like, there's the moment they're eating popcorn. But then she turns and, like, gets serious for a moment. It's like, thank you for showing this to me. And I kind of got chills. And then she's talking about us being ants. But still, what she's saying is so, like, meaningful. And she's doing it with an air of, like, such gravitas that, like, I don't care that you're calling me an ant.

[00:44:46] Like, yes, tell me more about how you feel humanity. Yeah. And also, she just had that very impressive costume. Like, her headpiece was, like, made her so much taller. And the robes were so impressive that I just think the whole package was very effective. And just to say so passive in front of Reese Darby is must be a feat in itself. Just to keep her face straight? Like, we definitely, like, you know, as soon as we cut, there was a lot of laughter. Because she was just like, I can't believe I have to keep a straight face in front of this guy. He's making me laugh.

[00:45:16] So it was really good. So one of my final questions is you were talking about the ship shots of the Enterprise and how, like, even those were kind of more stable and flat. Yes. I really liked whatever the ship that La'an and Cyborg were in, the outside shots. Wasn't it great? Yes. Like, tell me about how you guys came up with that. In theory, it's like a cargo ship. Yeah. You know, that's why there was, like, sort of depth and, like, containers around.

[00:45:43] And we just sort of got an opportunity to really, like, making it feel claustrophobic to sort of really match what was happening to them physically and emotionally. You know, because you want these two characters to be in each other's space, you know, but they've got nowhere to run. So it was really about allowing that set and that environment to assist in, like, building up that tension. And the exterior shot was just a visual effect? Yes. Not a model?

[00:46:13] Because I looked at, I mean, it looked so good. Yes. I was like, did they just, like, grab, like, a model from Alien or something? No, no, no. It's just real good looking. Yes. Well, before we get to our final question for you, is there anything else we didn't talk about that you'd like to mention? I'm just trying to think. I feel like... Any other fun stories or... Let's see what else. I mean, how, when they first presented the episode to you, how was it described? How did they sell you on it? Well, it was like a soap opera, which I just thought was, I read it and I was like, oh,

[00:46:43] I know exactly what this is and this makes total sense to me. Whereas I think there was a lot of trepidation with the actors and just in general, everybody like, nobody, you know, the tricky thing about doing a soap opera is like, you just don't want to look like an idiot. Do you know what I mean? Like, and I think when you think about actors doing really over the top performances, like, it really needs to be sort of titrated well so that it's not ridiculous, you know?

[00:47:10] Whereas I was not concerned about that because I knew we were going to get that, you know? So I think it was really just about sort of explaining or just sort of sharing that confidence that this was going to be really exceptional because it was so out of everybody's element. They've done all these insane stuff, like the most ridiculous things that were like so huge and so scary. But this episode seemed to like really concern a lot of people where I was so excited about it, where I was like, what do you mean? This is amazing.

[00:47:40] It's going to be great. So I think I approached it with like a lot of enthusiasm and confidence just because I knew once everybody just like got into it, they would realize how fun and what a joy it was to do this, but then still kind of really get your emotional ass kicked, you know? And they really, you know, because there's just like this, like we talked about, there's this idea that like soap operas are fluffy and, you know, just like breezy, easy.

[00:48:10] But they're really not. They take a lot of thought and they take a lot of instinct. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you were the right person to bring on for this. I felt very lucky. Really, really lucky. All right. Well, I'm going to squeeze in one more question. Yeah. Outside the box question. We asked a little bit about Flight of the Conchords. Yes. The other credit of yours. I was like, oh my God, I forgot about that show. I love that show. I've got to go rewatch that show now. Bored to death. What can you give me a quick?

[00:48:37] I mean, that's like, you know, Jonathan Ames at his best. He is so good at like randomness, you know? And just like characters that really screw up royally and really are their own worst enemy, you know? But at the same time, all the characters are like good, you know? Like you had this incredible cast, Ted Danson, Zach Galifianakis, you know, Jonathan. And it was just like Jason Schwartzman and then Jonathan Ames writing all of them.

[00:49:07] But they're the nicest guys you can meet. Like not a little bit. It was almost a competition about who was nicest, you know? And this was Zach. First season was before The Hangover. I think so, yeah. Yeah. I didn't watch it till after, but yeah. So he had not blow up, you know? And then I think by season three, The Hangover had come out. And it was just like a whole thing. But he's so smart and so thoughtful and so talented. And also he's been through all of that a bunch of times.

[00:49:36] So like nothing changes him. Like, you know what I mean? He's just like a solid, beautiful human. And they're all just talented. Ted is just like the nicest guy you can meet. And also like his comedy tuning fork is insane. And then, of course, Jason is like just like a ball of talent. And just he kind of does that off-kilter thing like incredibly well, but makes it relatable. So it was just this oddball trio that worked beautifully.

[00:50:05] It was like it was beautiful looking, you know? Like it was just like such a very specific stylistic show. But it was so Brooklyn before Brooklyn was Brooklyn. You know what I mean? And like the way Flight of the Conquerors was filmed on the Lower East Side in Williamsburg before they were Williamsburg. You know, it was like it's like a time capsule. And I love how heightened Bored to Death was. But again, very emotionally grounded, you know? And it was full of incredible guest actors.

[00:50:33] Like it was just it was really a joy. I do think back on that time as a really kind of special time with special actors. And just it was like really amazing. And you remind me, I think I haven't watched it in so long. Like I might have to go back and watch it. Yeah. I mean, I literally I couldn't tell you what it was about. It was about there were writers. One of them was a writer. I just I remember loving it. Private detective. Yes. I just remember loving it. And then I got excited because like, oh, I kind of get to watch it all over again.

[00:51:01] Because I'm sure once I start watching it, things will hit me. But it will all come back because it's like a very noir vibe. Yeah. It's Raymond Chandler. It's like it's all that kind of stuff. That was just beautiful. That's right. Thank you for reminding me about that. Oh, no. I want to. Please go watch it. Everybody go watch it. Well, coming back to Strange New Worlds. We always like to ask our directors, what is your favorite single shot from like chronitons through the hourglass? Yeah.

[00:51:31] I mean, I think in this case, it is the transitional shot for Pike from from the soap opera into like reality present day or his the single cam. So because it's just sort of sums up his realization. You know, I think that shot just brings us back into the world that we know. That's not a Trilline world. It's his real world. Like he's no longer playing games. He's just left with his own emotions.

[00:51:59] So it is that shot where we realize we're back. I think that was a really special shot. Indeed. Nice. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Anna. I like I said, I mean, I was just laughing and crying. What more could I ask for from an episode? It was definitely one of those episodes. I was like, well, I know they're doing a soap opera one. I think Trilline's in it. I don't know anything else about it. So I was very excited. It became quickly like such an important one to me. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. Yeah.

[00:52:28] It's really I just think it's a it's a special episode for sure. Well, we'll let you get back and thank you so much for coming on Open Pike Night and directing Strange New Worlds. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.