SNW S4E5 - "Level 5 Transporter Accident"

[00:00:09] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds Podcast where your calls are the prime directive. I'm your host, John T. Bolgues, here tonight to discuss Strange New Worlds Season 4, Episode 5, Level 5 Transporter Accident, or the one with the puppets. Join us tonight as we look at both sides of what has shaped up to be a divisive episode. But we'll cut through the fluff and get to the heart of who's really pulling the strings here. Joining me tonight are my co-hosts, the man who knows the

[00:00:53] real villain of this episode isn't some pirate, it's Declan. Jesse Bailey? If it weren't for Declan, none of this would have happened. I'm just gonna say it, like, it's entirely his fault. He's now my nemesis too. And the man who understands that sometimes you have to give your crew a hand. Just don't ask where. Host of Green Shirt, A Newbie's Trek Through TNG, Cameron Harrison. Do you want to give someone an emo explosion? Just shove your hand. Well, yeah, we'll leave that unsaid. And joining us tonight,

[00:01:23] is a returning guest, ready to help us weather the puppet storm and see what kind of opinions this week's episode precipitated. Welcome back to Open Pike Night, Katie Nicolau. Good use of the word precipitated. Hello! I feel them raining down upon me, all the opinions. Yes! And, like, puppet storm, I think, is the way to describe the reaction to this episode. I have, like, I thought the last two episodes were divisive.

[00:01:53] And I feel like I've said this every week this season, but wow. I just straight up reused that line, that intro line, just changed the front at the end. So, like, well, we can use it again this week. So, we did, like we said, your calls are our prime directive. And we got tons of calls about this episode. Probably too many for us to get to in any kind of timely fashion. So, I have selected a handful of calls. Any new callers, we always like to welcome to Open Pike Night.

[00:02:23] So, they are on the list already. And a handful of others. And then, the rest of our callers, I have put you on a little spinning wheel selector to leave random chance up to it. But fear not. Those of you whose calls are not here tonight, first off, I did make a montage. So, you might hear your voice in there. And Open Pike Night will respond to your calls by the end of the season, or by the end of the year. Because he has an idea. And we don't know what this idea is yet. I'm on pins and needles.

[00:02:53] I think it'll work. It'll be fun. And if your voice doesn't get heard on the podcast, it will be heard and featured for Open Pike Night. So, without further ado, let us talk about a level 5 transporter accident. And halfway through season 4 of Strange New Worlds, we're one episode away from only having 10 left in this entire series. That's kind of crazy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I don't like that. People have thoughts back.

[00:03:22] So, let's go ahead and start off. Let's start off with Isaac and hear from him and his son, Harry. Hello, guys. This is Isaac. And Harry. Of the Trek 365 podcast. And we have just watched the puppet episode of Star Trek. Now, this was amazing. I absolutely loved it. How did you feel about it, Harry? I think it was incredible, but also the funniest episode you'll ever see. Ever see, sorry.

[00:03:52] And you should watch it. Yeah, they've watched it. Don't worry. Okay. So, live long. And? It's your turn. What? It's your turn. Live long and puppet. Yeah. See ya. Bye. Bye. Bye. That's how you do a call in. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent call, Isaac and Harry. And I have to say, like, this is an angle that may be missing from the discourse that I have seen so far this week.

[00:04:20] Like, this is going to be the way that so many parents who are struggling to get their children, which should be read my child, into Star Trek. This might be our inroad. Like, this is the one thing that we can go, well, hey, this has puppets. And maybe that will be enough. Now, there are still moments in this episode where I'd be like, don't watch what's about to happen to this puppet. Yeah.

[00:04:47] Like, if these were puppets, this would be a horrifyingly violent episode of Star Trek. Incredibly gory. Like, I'm glad that the writers and directors from the Griffin incident were not present for this episode. Oh, gosh. Who do you think thought to pop off Lon's arm and cut Pelley in half? Yeah. The same writers, I'm sure. It has to have been. And they probably asked to do that in their episode. And they're like, we have puppets coming up. Just relax.

[00:05:16] Save it for them. But yeah, I mean, I think this will be a running theme tonight, I'm sure. But I think it's important to remember every episode of Star Trek is somebody's favorite episode of Star Trek and should not be upset when Joy comes to people from this show. There's a lot of Trek fans out there, Cam. I guarantee you there are at least two people in the world that are like, Shades of Grey is how you do it. I haven't. I mean, there's people who might like it, but favorite episode, Jesse.

[00:05:46] That's a. Cameron, stop assessing my analogy or my adage or whatever. See, I'm nitpicking your analogy. Like, some people nitpick this episode. Yeah, no. I mean, if you're going to, to your point, like how you watch this episode, if you're coming in and being like, all right, is this going to make scientific soundproof and fit tonally with Wrath of Khan? No, it's not. But if you're coming in like, oh, I'm about to watch a Star Trek puppet episode. You're good. It's a hilarious episode. It's a really good time.

[00:06:15] And even if not, I had the pleasure of watching this episode with two people. I believe, I'm pretty sure they did not know a puppet episode was coming. They were not tracking Stranger Worlds and did not know this was coming. And listening and watching their reactions as things started occurring in this episode was an absolute delight. That's awesome. Were these children people or like fully adult people? Fully adult people. Nice. I had a similar thing with my parents. I sat them down.

[00:06:45] I was like, we're going to watch this. And my mom doesn't watch Star Trek. My dad pretty much just watched Next Generation. Like, we're going to have fun with this. And they really enjoyed it. I mean, Pelia had them laughing out loud, which of course, but still like, it was cool because even like non-Trekkies can enjoy this episode. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say, I think if you see the Pellia puppet on screen and do not laugh, then you are not, this episode is not going to be for you, right?

[00:07:11] Like just the way that puppet looks should bring something out of you. Yes. It's the best puppet. Hands down. So good. So good. If you don't laugh at that, you have a bottle of lotion in a basket tied in a hole in your basement. And that's just where I put them at. Is that an STLV karaoke reference? Anyways, go ahead, John. Like I said, we have lots of callers tonight. Let's hear from Platty and his very on theme call.

[00:07:40] Hey there, open bike night. It's Platty M3. Maybe this call will be a dream. Maybe it'll be a nightmare. Ah! But here's my puppet's hitches and giggles. Hits. I loved all the puppets. That Pellia one is definitely a favorite. Now, Ethan Peck did an awesome job being the straight man. All that ma'am. I'm a huge Brooklyn Nine-Nine fan, so seeing Joe Lo Truglio hitting away, great for me.

[00:08:04] I absolutely loved how the entire thing reveled in puppet logic, where consoles didn't recognize their hands in vacuums of space. Wasn't a big deal at all. Also, I was fine with them skipping any explanation of how they were able to get doors open when they said they couldn't, or pike back in. Ah, whatever. Finally. I like when the ship was a trek and the crew ran around like crazy Muppets going, ah! But. Shits. But when the bridge is shaking, it's parking, there's a closed caption remark from Ortegas

[00:08:34] that says, oh my raggles! No matter how hard I turned up the volume, that line wasn't there. Come on, man! That's hilarious! Where'd it go? All right, giggles. I think I referenced the Declan stuff so many times this week. Oh, I just love it. It's so much fun. It made me chuckle. But the best part is when Lon asked Spock about what was up with that, and Scotty just keeps mumbling about Declan, and Spock just answers how Scotty just won't shut up about the guy. Neither can I! Love it! All right, why do you agree?

[00:09:03] Sign it off! Man, so you know how they used to take clips from stand-up comedy and animate three or four minutes of it? I think it was Comedy Central. Yeah. I would love to see the puppet version of this call from Vladdy. You nailed it, man. The energy was there. The spirit was there. I'm completely here for it. And yeah, the thing that really sticks out at me from this episode, I remember talking

[00:09:33] with John and Cam for the first time about it, and Cam said, well, how did Pike get back in if he was outside an airlock? That did bother me, yes. And we both told him it's the same way Scotty got out from under the torpedo. Yeah. And the answer is Roger the Rabbit explanation. He's a puppet. The best of a list of bad explanations, so I'll take that one. But the very next scene, the whole obstacle of the story of the plot is they can't get out of the room, so I don't know how he got in the room.

[00:10:00] I think Ohura had a throwaway line where she's like, if I can't get my hand, sometimes. Sometimes. There's also a guard right outside the room. They got out of the room to an airlock, opened the airlock, got him in, opened the inside airlock, got him back into the room. That's a good point. Did you want to see that many scenes, or did you want more scenes of puppets? No, then just have him zip inside like Scotty did. I don't know. I get why there's not a whole sequence there. I understand that, but you can't... I don't know.

[00:10:29] I like John's explanation. It's the magic of commercial breaks, like I told Henry. You see that all the time. Jeffrey's two Bex Machina. Yeah. So, okay, speaking of leaps that this episode takes, we've got Declan. We have the whole driver of this episode. It's Scotty's rivalry with Declan. I'm not going to be like a canon person and be like, oh, Scotty in this episode said this, whatever. So he's trying to transport something 30,000 kilometers away, right?

[00:10:56] But then this disaster happens, and the closest ship is two days away. Yeah. Because there's other ships even closer than Declan's ship. Yeah. Yeah. I bumped on that. It took me three watches, but I did eventually bump on it. Yeah. Like, again, it is a Muppet episode. It's like, all right, I'm not going to nitpick this. Obviously, the story is they try and resolve any of those issues with the final explanation. But yeah, I was like, I'm pretty sure those ships can go 30,000 kilometers in a battle.

[00:11:26] But Tepring also said, like, I'm going back to Vulcan. If your ship comes close to Vulcan, I'll come on board. And then she's on board like 30 minutes later. Okay. Just because a ship is two days away doesn't mean that is a distance measurement. It's possible that those ships are currently tied up in a mission and won't be done with it for two days. I mean, that's how close 30,000 kilometers is in space. My point being, that's a classic Star Trek thing of like, we have this ticking clock.

[00:11:56] We have this exact amount of time. Yeah. So it's certainly possible. And what happened when ships didn't respond to that? I'm pretty sure the flagship of the Federation would get responded to. I'm not sure. I don't understand the reference. My heart is not going on, Jesse. Oh my gosh. But yeah, I think you're probably right, John. The answer is it's still a puppet episode. Yeah. But if I were going to pick at it, I'd be like, yeah, they were clearly on a very important mission. Couldn't leave for two days. There we go.

[00:12:25] Okay. If we're doing the nitpicks things, then there are two other kind of like, wait, didn't they just say puppets X, but now they X? One is, and Banga pretty clearly says like, our life signs are normal, right? We're organic. And we see an X-ray. Yep. But then the Orions are only detecting one life sign on the ship. Well, their scanners aren't calibrated to puppets. They're not that science. Right. They're not that Orion science team. They got bad pirate scanners. They have pirate scanners. Okay.

[00:12:54] And then like, we very clear, there's a whole bit about Una punching a pirate and being like, is this even hurting you? And then in the big finale, we're getting like full on Western sound effect sounds as they punch people. Yeah. Do the felt fist hurt or not? Momentum and conservation of it. Yes. If you get poked in the eye with a felt finger, you're going to feel that. Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you get stabbed with a Kimbo sewing needles by the butcher puppet of Jagal.

[00:13:25] Why did they have him stabbing him there, by the way? Like, he could have gone like six inches higher and been fine. It was just. Yeah. It's the kneecaps, right? It was like kneecaps or thighs or additional. But it was like ambiguous enough to where you can tell yourself whatever story you need to about that. Yeah.

[00:13:45] But like, I mean, this is the image of the episode for me is Mbenga squinting at the Orion pirate and then smash cut back to him holding two sewing needles. I was like. So good. This is absolutely 100% worth it. I saved that screenshot and I will be using it in my comment section the next time I get a chemtrails person. Yes. I'm just going to put it in the comment section. I posted it on our socials and said, my face when someone says the puppet episode was bad. Yes.

[00:14:16] Which is an opinion I'm sure that we will get to. But so far, it sounds like everybody just loves the episode. I think we can call that a day, guys. It was a great episode of Open Pike Night. Thanks for having me. That was fun. 100% enjoyed by the fans. There we go. All right. Well, let's hear from one of our new callers. Let's welcome Neil to the Open Pike Night stage. I Open Pike Night. My name is Neil and I'm a first time caller. The puppet episode. I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. I certainly laughed.

[00:14:44] I was certainly very confused about some parts. And, you know, I thought the guest characters were actually fantastic. One gripe. They have an entire puppet episode and they don't mention Mystery Science Theater 3000, Crotee Robot and Tom Servo. I mean, come on. What are we doing here? Okay. Cambot and Gypsy are my favorite part of the robot roll call song, though. Well, Cambot. Yeah. Now, is this a puppet episode or is this a Muppet episode?

[00:15:14] Okay. And is there a distinction? Like, is Muppet just an owned, like, word for puppet? Is it a portmanteau of, like, motion puppet? Like, I don't know where the word Muppet comes from. I mean, I think it's an owned thing, but I think if it's made by Hanson, it's a Muppet, I would say. It feels like it. Yeah. Yeah. But in our interview, some of the people even corrected themselves. They were like, puppet. I mean, Muppet. Right. They would get in trouble. Yeah. If they used the wrong term.

[00:15:43] Maybe it's a specific, like, technique of puppeteering or something. Like a style of design, too. I do. I feel like it's so iconic with the mouth shape. Yeah. Yeah. So. The semi-spherical head with a mouth cut into it. Like, that's a Muppet. Exactly. So, if Spock walked into a darkened theater with two other crew puppets, one, who would he bring? And two, is there any other movie they'd be watching besides Section 31? Oh. Okay. Well, you just answered that part.

[00:16:13] I mean, I'm going to go. Now there's a bonus episode in the pipeline. Thanks. Yeah. I feel like there's been a couple times people have asked the crew, the cast members, like, if you were to do a podcast with another crew member or castmate, who would you do? And the answer is always like, Melissa and Martin should do a podcast together. And I think especially after this season, it should be Scotty and Erica would be with Spock to mock a certain Section 31 film. But it's hard to pick what they would watch.

[00:16:42] Which, I think it would be funny if they watched, like, episodes of the animated series. Yeah. Like, that would be. And, I mean, if you're already going to be meta, like, go with it. It's fine. Yeah. But, I mean, I want to thank Neil for even mentioning Mystery Science Theater because it's near and dear to my heart. And I think more people should watch it. Yeah. Yes. And it really hasn't been discussed in this because obviously, you know, everybody's talking Muppets with this episode. Yeah. There's other puppet stuff. In space.

[00:17:12] Yeah. Actually, I want them to be watching Star Wars and then just have Scotty be like, what is this? This isn't how ships work. Oh, yeah. That would be so funny. That would make you complain the whole time, like, what is this magic? Yeah. Oh, that'd be brilliant. Man. I definitely want to watch that. Yes. Welcome to the stage, Neil. Glad to have you. There we go. Yeah. Thank you for joining us, Neil. Let's hear from another new caller. Here is Mousepad.

[00:17:41] Mousepad here, calling with thoughts on level five transporter accident. I have some very mixed feelings about this episode. I love Star Trek, of course, and I love puppets. As a kid, I loved the Muppets as fun, colorful, funny characters. As an adult, I've gained an appreciation for the artistry of puppets and the skill needed to bring an inanimate puppet to life. I always like it when Star Trek uses puppets for aliens and creatures, such as Strange New Worlds as Dumb with the Gorn. But do I want Henson-style puppets in Star Trek? Well, mixed feelings.

[00:18:10] I love seeing these Star Trek characters come to life in the Henson style, but as an actual episode of Star Trek? Eh? I spent my first watch this episode trying to find some plausible pseudoscience to merge the puppet hijinks with the Star Trek universe that I've loved since I was a kid. It wasn't going well. On the bright side, when I re-watch the episode, I'll be able to enjoy the puppet hijinks without worrying about the story logic. If we got 26 episodes per season like we used to, I'd be fully willing to embrace an episode like this.

[00:18:38] But in a world with 10-episode seasons, it feels almost wasteful to spend one on something this ridiculous. Nonetheless, it's a fun and funny episode. And that will have to be enough. Welcome to the stage, Mousepad. And on behalf of the guys, I gotta say, it was wonderful meeting you in Star Trek Las Vegas, and I'm glad to have you join us here. And I think this is probably the normal reaction, right?

[00:19:03] Like, this is the average Star Trek fan reaction to this episode of like, oh, okay, we're doing puppets. I can deal with that. Like, I have feelings about it. I have thoughts and questions. But it's not going to upset me. And it's not going to be my favorite episode ever. I think this is your straight down the middle, totally normal reaction to this episode. And I appreciate that you were able to appreciate it. And I know it's been said other places, but like, you want Star Trek episodes to make you feel something.

[00:19:33] If you came out of this going, I don't care that that happened, that would be a bad sign. And I, you know, it feels like a cop-out to say, hey, it succeeded because you felt something. But, I mean, that part of it is true, I think. Yeah. And we've heard it from a couple. I'm not going to hold off to the end of the episode. We've heard it from a couple of people. I have mixed feelings about this episode. Mm-hmm. I know I said this about the last episode, too.

[00:19:57] I don't know if I wish this had been a full Muppet movie, just a Star Trek Muppet movie. Mm-hmm. But I do wish they'd gone just, like, unleashed. I feel like they held themselves back on the Muppet insanity when they decided to finally be like, we are going puppet attack on this ship. Like, they, like, T'Pring describes it as a ship of chaos. I'm like, show us a ship of chaos.

[00:20:24] Like, have Muppets just flying in front of the camera in the middle of the battle scene. Have your pirate leader not just sit in the captain's chair for most of the fight scene? I, again, I love the guest stars. Like, all the pieces are there. I just, I kind of wish they had amped up the energy of the insanity, I guess is the way I'll put it. I agree with that. The finale did leave me wanting a little bit more because there's this great buildup of, like, wear puppets. Let's do what only puppets can do.

[00:20:52] And then, again, they get there and there's a lot of punching. And you're like, okay, where was, like, crawling through an air duct that a human couldn't fit through? Or being folded up three ways in a briefcase to sneak in? Or put into, like, a T-shirt cannon and fired at somebody. I mean, something. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's bits, like, where La'Anne is kind of popping up puppety and poking people in the eyes. I'm like, okay, that's a puppet maneuver. I'm seeing you do puppet stuff. But a lot of the other ones are just like, yeah, I'm just jumping at you and shrieking kind of puppety.

[00:21:20] The creators did talk a lot about how, like, that was a very difficult scene to shoot. I would imagine. And I feel that kind of comes across like, yeah, they kind of got the pieces they needed and were able to kind of just get enough out. But I wanted a little bit more. I also, speaking of what the creator said, I liked a lot what Henry and Dana said about, like, this was an episode made for the people who love Star Trek and the people who love the Muppets. And they felt like that was a large overlap, which I would probably agree with.

[00:21:47] So kind of to Mousepad's point, like, yeah, I grew up on the Muppets. I love them. I grew up on Star Trek. I love Star Trek. I've grown up on TV shows that have done Muppet episodes. So, like, Star Trek doing one is not a huge, huge leap for me to take. And I'm perfectly willing to take it, even if, yeah, again, if I'm watching it with, like, a scientific mind, I'm like, would the transporter make Felt be animate? Okay.

[00:22:14] Well, and I think Mousepad hit it on the nail on the head there with the if this was a 26 episode season, no one would bat an eye except for, like, really hardcore haters. But, like, if we had more episodes, it would be much easier for people to accept these, like, one-off genre meddling, like, things. And I just, I don't know. I started Star Trek, like, back around, like, 2008, 2009.

[00:22:41] So all of mine that I watched were 26 episodes in reruns already. So this is, I just grew up knowing that we'd have limited seasons. Well, so kind of two points. I've been hearing a lot of people say that, like, look, guys, if you're doing 26 episodes, sure, give me these crazy ones. But you've only got 10 episodes left. We've only got two seasons left. You owe me the traditional, normal space battle episodes. And I get that. I get that. And I've thought the same thing, too.

[00:23:09] But as I've been thinking about it more, especially trying to think about it from the creator's point of view, like, you have 10 episodes. Are you going to want to do, like, just another Star Trek episode? Are you going to want to do the Star Trek horror episode, the Star Trek noir episode, the Star Trek puppet? If you have the chance to do those ones, what are you going to do, like, I'll just make another Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach? I love Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach. It's a good episode. I'm glad we have it. But I can also be like, if I only have 10 episodes, do I want that?

[00:23:37] Or do I want this, like, crazy thing I'm going to remember for a long, long, long time? Yeah. Two things for me. Hearing you guys talk about the fight, I kind of wish one of the Orions had tried to punch the red shirt that had the hole in him and then their hand got stuck in the hole. And then he used that to kind of, like, steer them around and do things. Yeah. Maybe to even hit other Orions.

[00:24:00] But the thing about the genre swings that I have landed on, and I think I got this from you, Cameron, is, is it still about the characters and does it serve their arcs? And I think that is a resounding yes for this episode, especially when you consider Spock's point of view of this whole thing. And for me, Star Trek is about the characters. You know, when I was able to finally get my wife to watch some TNG with me, it was because she went, I remember liking that robot guy.

[00:24:29] I'd love to know more about him. It wasn't, oh, I'm suddenly very interested in Federation politics or the mechanics of warp drive. It was, I would love to know more about this cute robot character. So, and I think this episode, a lot of people said about episode three, like, this is a Lower Decks episode. This is actually also part of a plot of a Lower Decks episode where one of their characters gets turned into a doll and has a little sign that says, do not play with me.

[00:24:57] Like, I think this would have fit in Lower Decks as well, but I don't think that precludes it from being in Strange New Worlds. Yeah. Because it does happen in the universe. I mean, the comments that annoy me the most are the ones that, like, basically say, like, yeah, it was just the genre and nothing else. No story, no character. I'm like, did we watch the same episode? Because there is stuff happening under there. I understand that's maybe a distraction. You could apply that word to it.

[00:25:27] I wouldn't. But, like, and it's so, it's nice to see Spock dealing with anxiety because, like, for me personally, I use the logic taught in Star Trek to treat my own real life anxiety when I was in middle school. Because heaven knows you got a lot when that's when you're in middle school. But that was such a really cool, like, wait, I did that. And it actually is helping him sort of connection. So it meant something. It wasn't just a throwaway episode. It had substance. Yes, so much. Yeah.

[00:25:55] Like, this is Spock becoming the Spock we know from TOS. This is one of the probably most meaningful episodes to this character we'll get in this show. Yeah. Right. One of the most interesting reads I've seen about this, which I didn't even, like, sniff, was this is an allegory for disability. None of these characters can do what they're used to being able to do and they feel like they are lost now.

[00:26:19] And Spock, supposed to be the one who's able to do all of it, also suddenly feels like he can't do anything right. And he's torn in all these different directions and he can't rely on what he's used to relying on. And there's a whole video essay on it that I'm going to watch because that sounds brilliant to me. I kind of took it as this is a great illustration of how much faith Spock has in his crewmates.

[00:26:45] Like, even if it is all a dream and we'll get to that part, it's so deeply embedded in Spock's subconscious that these people succeed, are competent and want to help. That even if they were puppets, they would find a way to save the day. And I think that's really beautiful. Let's hear from our caller Lucy. Lieutenant Lucy from London here reporting on the puppet episode, finally. Mixed feelings on this one. A lot to love. I adored the Pellier puppet. She was hysterical.

[00:27:16] Really liked Mabenga. Liked Pike's puppet with his hair and also thought that Mabenga and Uhura's puppet with her earpiece falling out all the time was hysterical. I think that there may be some exploration of subconscious desires and fears across the board for Spock. We saw that in the Griffin incident. And I think maybe that's a continuation here. So I'm keeping an open mind. But yeah, a lot to love.

[00:27:44] And I really loved the Wrath of Khan-esque mind meld and the needs of the many part with Pike and Spock. Okay. Look forward to the next one. Thanks. I think both Jesse and I brought that up to Jordan canning the director, I think, of like, so in Wrath of Khan, are we able to suppose that Spock is thinking of puppets when he does that? Like, oh yeah, this one time, whether a dream or not, I did this. I mean, he is full of radiation. There is no telling what he's thinking of.

[00:28:15] Exactly. He actually sees Kirk as a puppet in that moment. Yeah. When they did that, I was actually live watching with a friend. We were messaging each other. And I messaged him. I was like, oh, the haters are going to be mad in all caps. Which is funny because I thought, like, because we just saw this parodied in Academy with Noose Bracha. And it was like, oh, that's right. Nobody watched Academy. So nobody was there to hate it. They just hated on it without ever watching it. It was like, yeah, they already parodied this once. Yeah.

[00:28:43] And again, I think, like, I love that they're like, oh, that's a sacred thing. It's like, no, it's not. They already did this in the Pine movies. Like, they've already messed with this famous event. I kind of wish, like, Pike's body had been tossed out and his hand had been stuck for a little bit. Oh, my God. Yes, that's how horrible. Just like the yarn starts to unravel. Exactly. Yeah. Like, go full Muppet.

[00:29:10] And famously, the haters are like, this cheapens that. And it's like, no, it doesn't. Like, it's literally not connected. It's fine. The hammer moment. Yeah. Echoed back. Yeah. I mean, pick your echo you want to latch on to. If a, say, 14-year-old started watching all these newer Treks now and sees this again and again, and then finally watches the Wrath of Khan when they're older, they'll be like, oh, this is a million. They're like, oh, no. No, no, no. It's like, no, I'm pretty sure it makes it more impactful. But that's a good point.

[00:29:40] That's a good point. Right. So I think Lucy poses a good question. Other than Pellia, who is your favorite puppet? That's tough, right? I mean, and do we exclude the people in the hallways? Because I goddamn love those shots. It's great. Give me ship chaos with puppets. Ship chaos. I mean, the whole episode could have been that. I would have been happy. The engineering Andorian was fantastic, for sure. Yeah. Apparently just a blue fish. Yeah. Not an Andorian. But I totally thought an Andorian also. Yeah.

[00:30:08] I'm going to have to go with Chapel, man. She didn't say a lot, but she was back then doing the sewing and everything. Her hair, she was busy in this episode. She has a couple line reads that are, I think, the most Muppet line reads of anybody. I felt like she really channeled the Muppet-ness of it. I think so, too. I think so, too. I mean, Pellia was just being Pellia, but as far as doing a Muppet version, I'm loving Chapel here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

[00:30:36] I mean, I liked Uhura's puppet was pretty great. She's pretty great. The earpiece falling out was really good. Yeah. It's like, this is a great gag. I do it every time. And it makes sense. Unlike some things in the episode, it's like, this makes sense. Yes. Well, back to the wrath of Khan of it all for just a moment. I'm sure there have been times in Spock's life where he's thought to himself, McCoy is an absolute Muppet. So, like, I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

[00:31:06] And maybe this is where he thought of that from. But for me, perhaps unsurprisingly, it's a tie between Mbenga and Ortegas. Yep. Mbenga because he manages to be both a very serious puppet for certain scenes and then the least serious puppet on a ship with Pellia. And that's, to me, an incredible range for A, a puppet, and B, the puppeteers. Like, this is very well directed, in my opinion.

[00:31:33] And I think it really shines through in the Mbenga puppet performance. But Ortegas looks like Ortegas. Like, they even have the different, like, you can see where they shaved the line of hair on her head. Like, that was really, really impressive. And Come Closer to My Fists is, like, for me, like, that's the kind of absurdity you want in this kind of episode. I loved them both.

[00:32:00] I would have been disappointed if there hadn't been a hold them at bay by just putting your hand on their head. Like, you had to have that moment this episode. I'm glad it wasn't. It's required. I mean, special shout out for the weenie puppet, too. He was great. Yeah. But, like, as Lucy was talking about kind of Spock's character development, I think it actually tracks all the way from episode two through episode three. Yeah. Because it's like he's in episode three.

[00:32:29] Yes, he's drunk or whatever. But one of the things he tells Kirk that he wants to talk about is his fears. Right? Yeah. And we see him being nervous and unsure about La'an and many other things throughout the season. So I think Lucy is right. This absolutely tracks with what we know about Spock. And it goes back to Cam's brilliant thing about character arcs. Like, if it matters to the characters, it works. And that's definitely where I'm landing.

[00:32:59] Well, not just characters, but all of these genres also have a Star Trek episode. How many times have we seen a transporter accident? Yep. Right. We're just pushing it a little further. That's all. How many times have they come across a ghost ship? How many times have they gone to an Earth allegory planet? Been boarded by pirates. Like, none of this is new ground. It's just putting in different grounds together. I mean, this is Rascals. This is the same exact story of Rascals, just puppets instead of kids.

[00:33:26] And I think it's arguably more believable that Orions would get away with this while there are puppets on board than three Ferengi would get away with this while there's a whole crew of people on board. I'm going to put this out there now for whatever, Christmastime 2027. I would like to do a deep dive episode or two about how New Trek has brought Orions into a fully formed, like Tendi, Osyraa, the Orions in Stranger Worlds.

[00:33:55] Orions have played a hugely important part in this newest generation of Trek. And I think it warrants a full look when all of this is said and done. And those old scientists, when the Orions said that's all they ever wanted to be was scientists. Yeah. Like, I tear up at that. Yeah. Every time. Every time. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from Jen. Hey, OpenPike. This is Jen. Absolutely ridiculous on so many levels.

[00:34:22] My favorite moment was when the one crewman got shot in the stomach and there was a hole in his stomach for the rest of the episode. And he just seemed so pathetic. But then I kept thinking, okay, when he got turned back human, did he have any damage? And for the people complaining, Star Trek has always had silly episodes. Every, you know, they had Spock's brain. They had that DS9 episode where they were playing the board game. Yeah.

[00:34:50] They all have silly episodes and it's kind of part of the fun. My favorite puppet was Payla because her hair just every time it came on screen, I just wanted to touch it. And it's like, okay, are those hollow tubes? Is that yarn? I did like the sewing references because I do sew and make stuffies and stuff like that. So that was pretty neat. I need some of those puppets though. You can make them in like six inches form or something because that would be awesome. Yeah. That's all I had.

[00:35:20] Thanks. Finger puppet. Yes, merch team. Listen to what the fans want for once. Please. Never going to lose it. 100%. Literally for once. Which is like why it's frustrating to hear people be like, I would totally buy this. It's like, guess what? You can't. Yep. Yep. I highly recommend going to director Jordan Canning's Instagram account. She started to post some behind the scenes photos and there's a video of Pellia's puppeteer Ingrid. Holy cow.

[00:35:50] It's doing, and it's almost a deleted scene because they're kind of practicing things she could do during her big speech that don't make it in. But just seeing her bring her to life is amazing. And the gags they come up with are amazing. Go check it out. Yes. And the voice she does is just spot on. She's real close. Yeah. It's so good. Yeah. And that's just like rehearsal. That's not even on camera. I think for the transformation back, it would be fun like if, you know, for the next, like, let's say in episode six, it'd be fun if La'Anne spends like the entire episode rubbing her shoulder.

[00:36:20] Like, I don't know. There's just something bugging me. I don't know what it is. It feels weird. Maybe this red shirt crewman has like a constant stomach ache in the next episode. But I mean, we all know the transporter buffer saves your most recent patterns. So in theory, they could just be, even if he came back missing a torso, things might be all right. Maybe. Yeah. It definitely, it's like, okay, do we wish, and we will, again, we will get to the, it was all a dream of it all to wrap up this discussion.

[00:36:49] But I do kind of wish, you know, 10 more minutes, like show, show somebody returning, give us a little bit of rascals where we got to see some of the crew come back to adulthood and some were like, no, I still want to be a puppet. Like, I mean, yeah. Yeah. You kind of have some of that with La'an being, you know, she's like, I'm not worried about hurting anybody now that I'm a puppet. Yeah. Like she could have been like, I'm just going to stay a puppet for a little while longer

[00:37:16] and then, you know, another episode or two, but whatever. I was going to say they really should have committed and had her stay a puppet for another full episode. Yes. And at the end, there's another meeting with Pike where he's like, look, I've let some stuff slide with you this year. Okay. Like you need to stop being a puppet. I did love the La'an puppet too. I mean, she's, she's up there top, probably top three for me. Loved her. All right. Let's spin the wheel a few times and see who we're hearing from next.

[00:37:46] Shall we? Thank you. Everybody who called in, by the way, we love all our supporters, our patrons, our callers. This is a good problem to have. All right. Let's hear from our space hippie. Here is Newman. Newman, the space hippie returning as Newman, the sourpuss again this week. I don't know what's wrong with me in this season. Y'all. I really liked the funny episodes in previous seasons. I did. All right. Trying something new this week. Likes, dislikes. And I wish I like the puppet design to pring and in bang. I thought were the best voice actors of the whole puppet cast.

[00:38:16] Lots of great Spock face. I like Pellia throwing her shoes. I like to pring slapping Spock. And I like the scared puppet ensign who sat next to Ortega's and got a hole blown through his center. Dislikes. I dislike the Declan runner. I dislike the dialogue contradicting established lore and world like Scotty's grades and nepotism and Starfleet. A lot of the jokes in the writing I found so repetitive and overwritten. Everything they did with La'on and Spock. Just horrendous breakup etiquette there.

[00:38:45] Borderline direct quoting Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and the Muppet Christmas Carol. The Wrath of Khan moment. Ortega's quasi-metal line to potential haters of the episode. Hey, absurdism is kind of baked into the premise. I wish. I wish more plot could have been devoted to trying to conceal their puppetness from the Orions before their cover was blown. I wish Pike worked harder to maintain composure and poise before giving in to full Muppet energy and emotion. I wish there was time for a scene between Spock and Asha.

[00:39:15] And I wish we had had just a few grounded, serious Star Trek episodes before this one. So it felt like a bigger swing going into puppet mayhem. Newman the Space Hippie out. We should talk to Pring. Yes, I'm happy to. Newman brings up a lot of great points and she is so great at this episode. Both human and puppet. Yes. Racist, she's a Vulcan. Vulcan. Vulcan and puppet. Wow, my bad. Sorry to Pring.

[00:39:44] Yeah, and I have to say the translation of that character to Puppet is masterful. Yes. Because the crew's outfits are pretty much shirts, right? Like you put a shirt on a puppet, you're done. But the creation of Puppet to Pring's dress to look as close to to Pring's actual dress as it did is very impressive.

[00:40:11] And there's like some serious emotion here with this character, even when she is a puppet. Like this is very, very, in my opinion, very good writing because you care that she's having these interactions with Spock, even though it is absurd and she is a puppet. Like, you know that she's just going to read this as another failing on the part of his crewmates. And another reason to wonder why he would pick this life over a logical life on Vulcan.

[00:40:42] And to pull that off in such a silly episode, I think is impressive. I don't think it can be overstated how impressed I was with that. Especially like the fact that it ends with a puppet kiss. Yeah. Come on. Well, she pulls that off while also pulling off being the Miss Piggy to Spock's Kermit as closely as possible, slapping him a couple of times. Like that is good.

[00:41:09] That is the Muppets, like the full embracing of Muppet hood I was looking for for the rest of the episode. Well, like the puppeteer did an amazing job getting the Vulcan mannerisms to show through in the body language. Like you don't have much of a body to work with, but that felt Vulcan. Yeah. Fully agree. Yeah. I'm a long to Pring fan. I loved seeing her hallucination in episode two. And I'm glad we got some real to Pring and puppet to Pring in this episode.

[00:41:37] I mean, I could just listen to her say little Ricky all day long. I just she's a great character. I think she's a great counterpoint to Spock. I just I love that moment because we're the whole time. We're like, OK, the crew became puppet. Spock's going to be the only non Vulcan human there. Got it. Got it. Check. Check. You forget that to bring us on board when she shows up in that turbo lift and you just hear her voice and you're like, oh, now we're turning the screws on him. Got it.

[00:42:07] And Spock so good. Visibly winces when she says his name. That was a great Ethan Peck choice. And then possibly more than any of the crew to bring is proactive. Yeah. She's carrying those faces. I'm rooting for. Yes. Like she has solved the issue of getting a panel to knows where the armory is and has gone and stopped. She's going to home alone the enterprise. If Spock hadn't shown up, she probably would have taken care of the pirates right there.

[00:42:36] She knew their tactics. She was a stone cold badass. I was there for her. I kind of wish like he had grabbed a phaser and she would have been like, and like you have two hands. It's like, give him the double phaser. Don't be a pussy, Spock. The idea for another genre bending episode. They could home alone the enterprise. Next time someone shows up, just like make it the funniest thing you could do. Oh, man. Hypo spray is just going back and forth on strings, knocking people out.

[00:43:04] Well, and I think it matters to kind of to Spock's character arc, because if this is entirely a dream that Spock is having, subconsciously, he trusts her more than most of the people on this ship. Yeah. Even though she's not the one who's with him all the time, and she's not going on all the adventures and dealing with the hijinks, which is another way to read it is her going, I refuse hijinks. I'm going to get phasers.

[00:43:34] I'm going to help people fix this problem. Right. But it's like, again, if it is all a dream, it says a lot to what Spock thinks about Tupring. Let's remember that point when we discuss the dream, because I agree with that. I also just want to point out with Tupring, like, I love the way Ethan Spock interacts with her. He is so gentle. He's always getting down to her level. He's got his little hand, his hand on her little back and holding her hand. Like, it's so sweet. Like, yeah, I'm puppet Vulcan.

[00:44:04] I'm here for Spock and Tupring. Yeah. Well, and to ask Newman directly, like, isn't this the second completely wacky out there episode of the season? And most of them are fairly grounded, serious adventures. Like, the first episode. For sure. Yeah, Griffin incident. And Kaya Skuro, I mean, those are both very serious, you know, classic Star Trek style episodes.

[00:44:32] One's a little gorier than we're used to, but like, again, the haunted ship thing. And then I think the first episode of the season, despite being fantastic and pulpy, is a typical Star Trek mission. So, I mean, maybe the genre, to Cameron's point, has been distracting throughout the season. But I think most of the episodes have been, you know, some version of serious. I mean, only technically, though. Two out of five being, like, straight comedies.

[00:45:00] Not funny episodes, but straight comedies is 40% straight comedies. It is a lot. And also, you know what? I think for a lot of people who earnestly and with an open heart watch this stuff, in three years they're going to feel different. In five years they're going to feel more different. In 15 years, like, this is going to be a season that ages like fine wine for those who choose to approach it that way. I agree. People are feeling that drought coming.

[00:45:30] And they're, you know, they're desperately saying, give me the Star Trek of my youth. And I get that. That's a fair reaction to have. To Katie's point kind of earlier, I have been wanting to say, I wonder if one of the reasons I'm accepting of these big swings is because I'm only three seasons into DS9 and just started Voyager. I still have three seasons of Enterprise to watch. Like, I've got new to me classic Trek ahead of me. I'm not worried about it. So, I'm kind of in a situation, I think, that allows me to appreciate this maybe more than some.

[00:45:59] And you started Star Trek with the movies, right? Pretty much. So, like, having a wacky one built in is not new for you either. No, that's my favorite movie. Right! Look at Star Trek V. That is a wacky, wacky movie. Let's go ahead and hear from Mishi. Hi, guys. It's Mishi. And this is my favorite episode of the season so far. I haven't had this much fun watching in a long time.

[00:46:25] I know there's been some debate about the captain's chair, but I love the scene with Pike and Una at the beginning. I can easily overlook minor inconsistencies for the sake of that scene. It beautifully illustrates the friendship between the two, and I wouldn't have wanted to miss out on that. The puppets are so cute and cuddly. It didn't feel it was over the top either. For me, the amount of humor was just right. The fight scenes were brilliant.

[00:46:54] And the way the puppets tried to bite their opponents was hilarious. And the way they ran was so adorable. I simply loved the episode. And I don't even care that the physics made absolute no sense. I still loved it. And my favorite puppet? I loved them all. But if I could buy one, I would choose Pike. And Ortega's. She was pretty amazing too. That's it for me. Have a great day. Bye. Bye.

[00:47:23] I'm so glad Mishi mentioned Pellia biting that guy's finger. Yeah. If it's a puppet, then that just means as long as the person behind that puppet has a strong hand, that bite is going to hurt. But there's some puppet logic for you. As Admiral April made sure to find out, they're not puppet puppets, Jesse. There's no hand in there. But are they? They're just puppets. But are they?

[00:47:55] I do want to go back real quick. Newman mentioned a couple of things I want to pick up on. I loved Pellia throwing her shoes. And then we get a barefoot lanthanite again. Is this a lanthanite thing? We've had two lanthanites with iconic. No. This is a Spock's weird, subconscious, deeply buried fetish thing. Remember? Okay. All right. All right. Because this is the third instance this season where bare feet have mattered to Spock. Oh, shoot. You're right. Right? This is...

[00:48:23] We're learning stuff about our favorite Vulcan that maybe we didn't need to know. And then his comment on the runner of the Declan Milder thing not being his favorite, I kind of get it. Because every moment in and of itself, I think, is hilarious. Like Pellia's and Scotty's little bickering. But it is a classic sitcom trope that always bugged me. Where like in the fourth season, all of a sudden they're like, oh, this character always says this or always does this.

[00:48:52] And this episode is going to be about dealing with that. But you're like, I have watched four seasons of this show and that has never come up before. Like, I don't buy... I don't know why Pellia's poking him so hard about Declan Milder. Again, this is going to kind of go to my dream discussion a bit. But I mean, again, every moment was funny so I can kind of let it go. But the whole time I was like, this seems a little out of character. I don't know. Well, and some of the line reads too, you can pick up on it. It sounds just like slightly out of character, especially Pike with his chair.

[00:49:21] And like, I do like that scene at the start. But like throughout the episode, he keeps talking about the chair, the chair, the chair. It made me remember at STLV, actually, Anson Mount was talking about how he had to go back in, I think it was three times to rerecord lines. And when they call him up the third time, he's like, are you kidding me? Like he almost lost it. It's like you can pick out the lines that may have been that third recording because there's just a little bit more for anyone rewatching it.

[00:49:48] Well, and I think, you know, were we to get more episodes in a season of this show, we would meet Declan and I bet he would be very nice. And it's like most of this rivalry is in Scotty's head, you know, kind of like his rivalry with Erica was like. Right. If had, again, had this been a longer episode or they wanted to wrap that up more, they would have had Pelley and Scotty working together to beam little Ricky off and like successfully,

[00:50:17] you know, the last shot of the episode would be Declan walking, you know, some guy walking into his quarters and little, not Spock staring at little Ricky. I did want to see that moment. Yeah. Like Ricky just appearing in someone's quarters because holy hell nightmare fuel. It's interesting you say that though, John, because I think this is the longest episode of the season so far, it's a long one so far, so far, which I'm just, that's why I qualified it. But I will take this opportunity to say they mixed their horror genre from episode

[00:50:46] two into this episode with little Ricky. Like I want, I want that puppet burned. Like I want that puppet destroyed. It is incredibly unsettling. I need someone to make it and then just hide it around STLV in different spots each day, like elf on a shelf. Cam and I found trading cards in an elevator. And the one thing you do not want to see in a Rio elevator is little Ricky. Yeah. All right. Let's hear from Michelle. Hey, open Pike night.

[00:51:16] I love this episode. Having grown up as a Muppet fan and Star Trek fan, it's like a comfort watch to me. Ever since I saw Puppet Pike, I've been looking forward to it and it did not disappoint for me. I really give props to the Jim Henson Creature Workshop and the puppeteers for pulling this off. The puppets were perfect from the look to the performance to the voiceover work with

[00:51:43] Ethan Peck's Spock grounding it and playing perfectly off the puppets like he was in an episode of the Muppet show. I had so much fun with it. I can't remember the last time a TV show brought me so much happiness. And yes, it's not easy being green and there are haters out there. Like I know there were plot holes here and there, but Star Trek has done zanier things like, I don't know, lizard babies.

[00:52:08] I like what it did with Tupring, how she represents logic and Spock moving toward logic. And I think we got a lot of characters here having a lot of fun and really appreciated all the Muppet-iness. My crusher connection this week is that Gates McFadden did play off of Kermit the Frog and the Muppets as a secretary in the beginning of the movie, The Muppets Take Manhattan. And yes, she also choreographed Labyrinth with David Bowie.

[00:52:37] So those are my thoughts. I'm a little nervous to hear yours, but hey, here to listen. Live long and prosper. You brought up Labyrinth and David Bowie, Michelle. And I assume you're talking about Cam and John because you know it's going to be a love fest for me. But yeah, this episode, and again, we're going to get to the discourse with a capital D on it. But I have seen... Okay, let me just say this right here.

[00:53:04] On IMDb, this episode is currently rated lower than Code of Honor, which I think is... Which is stupid. It's literally disingenuous and kind of bullshit. Well, I had someone come at me on Twitter because they were like, yeah, the last episode is the lowest rated one. I'm like, come on. No, I know that sadly, Elise and Kingdom is the lowest rated. Whatever the newest episode is, has less than half the number of votes as any other episode. It's just the haters who hate watch it the first day and then come and rank it.

[00:53:31] The first episode will always be the most, the lowest rated for the first week. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I... Okay. Yeah. Let's air this grievance a little bit. You don't have to like every episode of Star Trek. I don't like every episode of Star Trek. Yeah. If you come at me or in a comment, make a comment like, oh, how could they even talk in space? It's like, that is a... No. They literally make a joke about that in the episode saying it does not make sense.

[00:53:58] You are arguing in absolute bad faith. And I am definitely getting real sick of bad faith arguments. And I love that the people who call in here don't have bad faith arguments. Yeah. And I heard one. Yes. Well, just like the last two minutes of it, as soon as that whole, like I wake up, I was like every plot hole, every problem anyone had with the episode, not going to factor in because it's not real. So that may be...

[00:54:24] I was like, there's really only two minutes of the episode that really affect is the last two minutes and it just... And those are strong character minutes. Yeah. Yeah. And then breaking up. But that'll happen. I'm sure that'll show up again. So I think there's a lot of just like straight up trolls and bots out there. Some of the comments I'm seeing are like, this is not a real reaction a real person would have. This is a puppet reaction to a puppet episode. It's so extreme. Yeah. But some of the more like nuanced ones, I will try to engage.

[00:54:54] And one person was like, what were the writers thinking? And I was like, well, I happen to know what the writers were thinking. So I commented and posted a link to our episode and she did watch because she replied like, hey, thanks. I watched it. Good podcast. But I had a problem with what they said. And it was the thing I mentioned earlier about, well, we made it for Muppet fans and Star Trek fans. And this person goes, that's the problem. They should only make it for Star Trek fans. They should only be thinking about Star Trek fans. And I was like, who...

[00:55:25] We are not a monolith. The internet should show you right now. Like, show me one episode that is universally loved by every Star Trek fan. And it doesn't exist. So like, yeah, to your point, like, you're not going to like everyone. And I'm sorry if this one wasn't for you, but I guarantee you it was for a lot of people. Yeah. And I like, yeah, I know John hates the inner light.

[00:55:46] But for me, the kicker to this argument is like, I don't care, like in the nicest way. It doesn't bother me if you didn't like it. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. If you're coming out and saying it's a bad episode, then you have mistaken your enjoyment for quality. Right?

[00:56:08] Because this is made by the people who do Muppet stuff in Jim Henson Workshop and Jordan Canning. Yeah. Like, these are the people you would, literally the people that have been hired to do Muppet stuff and Fraggle stuff and things like that. So like, again, you don't have to like it. But that's why I phrased my Mbenga meme the way I did. If you say it's bad, I'm going to look at you sideways because it's not bad.

[00:56:35] It is a highly, very well executed puppet thing. You don't have to like it. That's totally fine. But like, don't equate opinion of enjoyment with quality because that's not true. And it's also disingenuous because you're very clearly trying to make other people feel bad for enjoying it. And you want other people to agree with you that it was poorly created. And that just simply is not the case here.

[00:57:03] And I really want to specifically address Newman with this and Trev, who is in our Discord. I have gone back and forth with Trev and Newman on calls and in the Discord at length. And there has never been a point where I was like, okay, this person's arguing in bad faith or they just are arguing for the sake of arguing. They're bringing up good points. They're being very respectful and they're being very honest about the thing.

[00:57:32] And I appreciate that so much to John's point. I love that our callers are able to not like a thing and not be like evil or rude about it. So I rolled the wheel again during those calls and Trev is the next call. Yes. Let's hear it. All right. Here is Trev. Hey, it's Trev beaming in from the Fair Letter Franchise podcast. And I'll admit in the run up, I've been kind of apprehensive about this week's episode. Not because I think puppets are too silly for Trek, but actually the opposite.

[00:58:01] Given that it's already been done on Angel, Glee, Community, and Stargate, I feared this was more SNW chasing a popular TV trend just to check another genre box rather than something that had to be done. So then why did I, the guy who often complains about the show putting genre gimmickry above all else, actually mostly enjoy this one? Well, it's because in my opinion, they actually took the gimmick seriously through a Star Trek lens. My complaint last week was that they made the crew act out of character to suit the tropes of the genre. But with this one, they actually put a lot of thought and examination into what it would

[00:58:29] mean for a starship crew to turn into puppets and how they'd have to deal with it. The episode was silly, cute, and very funny. Loved every puppet fight scene. But it never ignored the potential reality and ramifications of the situation. All right. Thanks. Trev. Do you know row, row, row, row your boat? Let's go camping, man. Like, let's make s'mores. It feels so good to be on the same page with you. And I meant every word that I said.

[00:58:56] Like, every time we disagree with each other, I'm glad for the conversation because you're a good conversationalist and you know how to argue your points without resorting to, oh, you just love everything. Because that is a thing that has been said about me. And I will say here, I don't have, oh, yeah. And I've admitted to it most of the time. But there is a thing about this episode that bothered me. And I'm certain that we will get to that.

[00:59:23] And then I'm going to tie myself in little puppety knots to try and get out of it. I do want to take a moment to talk about, I don't know if Trev brought Ethan up specifically, but let's talk about Ethan because he knocks it out of the park in this episode. His expressions, I mean, 90% of this episode is just him reacting to the zaniness around him. And it's beautiful. It's like someone took the moment when Hugo Weaving sees Merry and Pippin run into the

[00:59:51] Council of Elrond and just made a whole episode on that expression because it's so good. And I'm so happy for it. It's one of my favorite moments in Lord of the Rings. And this whole episode makes me feel that for 54 minutes. And not just his expressions, his body language, like panic attack, his rushing around the bridge, both with the Orions on screen and just without, like in the background, like he's just running back and forth trying to keep this whole ship running.

[01:00:18] And like, I feel stressed watching him just trying to keep the Enterprise operating. And then his stone cold badass stare at the end is chef's kiss. Oh yeah. It is so good. I do like that part of the final plan. The oxygen thing makes total sense. Yes. That part checks all the boxes. Yeah. It's like, what is he doing the first time? Like, oh, I really like this. Okay. Yeah. Well, in my defense for the Orion captain, I think her name is Kroll, not being troll.

[01:00:48] Yep. Yeah. I made the same mistake to her face. Oh no. It's troll. Is it? It's troll. Yeah. I thought it was CH. Anyways, the reason I'm not bothered by her participation in the last fight is because she is after April, the second audience proxy. She's like, what is any of this? And like, you want to talk about facial expressions and reaction acting? Like she's doing that the entire episode.

[01:01:17] She's crushing it. Like totally loved her character. Also, she exposes Spock's other fantasy of being shot in the chest with a phaser by women. Because that's the second time this season that has happened to him. Uh-huh. Well, it makes sense too. And maybe a little bit of asphyxiation going on. Sorry, Katie. Go ahead. Oh, oh. Like it makes sense too with like the bridge and her not participating, at least in my brain, is that like when you are using your brain and you're thinking of all these little different things,

[01:01:47] Spock's brain is thinking up all the individual movements of each puppet and the fights and stuff. It makes sense. Like eventually it becomes too many people. It's like, okay, you just sit. Okay, everyone else choreographed. I like that. That's the way I've thought of it. I mean, I'm fine with her sitting and watching. She's the captain. She expects all the men around her to do everything. But when Spock comes onto the bridge and she's just blatantly looking to the right where not much is happening and ignoring like the one threat on the ship who has just entered the bridge,

[01:02:13] that was a moment where I was like, this is a dream sequence moment. This is where I accept the dream explanation because it's a little much. But she's got what, like five other guys on the bridge? Like it's still reasonable for her to be like, I may not have to worry about this. But she'd keep an eye on Spock. He just walked in. There's puppets everywhere, Cameron. All right. I got three more callers. Then we'll do our montage. I just want to say thank you to Grayson, Katrine, Abby, Anthony, Starship, and Val.

[01:02:42] We did not get your calls this time entirely. You might be part of the montage, but your calls will be played and discussed. But let's go ahead and hear from Kay Sarasara. Well, that was certainly the most sensational, inspirational, celebrational, muppetational episode of Trek I've seen yet. Kudos to Lawn for respecting herself and Spock in the way she ended their relationship. So the conceit of this week's episode, it's wacky.

[01:03:12] And it's really out there. And yeah, the vitriol I'm seeing for it. Whatever. Whatever. But the point in this episode when the puppets are out in space and they're experiencing that awe and wonder, that was... Well, it's Kermit saying what's so amazing that keeps us stargazing. And what do we think we might see? Someday we'll find it.

[01:03:41] The rainbow connection. Sorry, this song chokes me up. Anywho. Hey, you lovers. Hey, you dreamers. Keep dreaming. Love this call. Thank you for bringing this moment up, Kay Sarasara. Yeah, because I also, I mean, if you listen to our writers interview, you heard me say, like, I now expect every funny episode to get me at one point. And that was the scene that got me this one. I got choked up watching them in space. And it was important for Dana, the writer, too, it sounds like.

[01:04:11] And I feel like I should send her your call to let her know it affected you the same way. Let's literally do that. I think that's absolutely earned. And like, I'm choked up just hearing your call. Like, I mean, that was that was beautiful. And for me, it was for me, it was the pike scene. Like when it's just him and there's that ultra wide shot and you can barely make out the puppet in the center of the shot.

[01:04:39] I was like, oh, wow. Like, this is beautiful and like incredibly meaningful, especially for a guy who's, you know, in some estimations, hurtling toward a void of his own. It's like, yes, give give this moment of peace and majesty. And I got to say, like, I think as a person who grew up watching Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers and that kind of thing, like.

[01:05:08] Like, there's a reason we remember how those shows made us feel. Right. And there's a reason that those things are like Titanic in the memories and hearts of the people that watch them. They matter. They're important. They're meaningful. And I think this episode, whatever you think about, did you like it or not? Totally fine. Set that aside. Ask yourself, why is this hitting people hard and why is it giving them joy?

[01:05:37] And I think if you can examine that, it might help you maybe come down off the ledge about this episode. Yeah. I mean, Kermit's made me cry before, too. There's something about the Muppets. I mean, puppets in general, but Muppets specifically that really they are outrageous. But there's something there. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is, but I love it. I want to cling on to it.

[01:06:05] And I feel like there is a little bit of that in Star Trek, too, that wonder that I just want to spend time there. And I just want to spend time with the Muppets. And if you can combine both of those feels into one, like, why are you angry? I've like having thought about this before. I think it's that the Muppets are insane, zany, crazy out there. But they also sit in silence when it's important to better than, like, Tom Servo can't really sit in silence.

[01:06:35] You know, like, the moments when Muppets are calm, quiet, and caring are really, have been well done for decades now. And I think that's part of what does it is, like, the moment when they need to be there for somebody, they are there for somebody in whatever crazy movie or show it is. Well, and it's really interesting, too, bringing the two universes together. People say, I want to be a part of the Star Trek universe. I'd love to be a part of the Muppets universe.

[01:07:04] You're going to have someone say that about the Bourne identity. Like, these are two franchises that are very specifically, like, you feel like you want to go and be home there. And so it makes sense that you're putting them together because they have the same overall feel for the universe. Mm-hmm. Yes! Which, everyone's answer would have been, like, likely Spock.

[01:07:33] Like, if anyone is not going to be a Muppet, make them deal with it. It's Spock. Sorry. I've got the Gonzo identity going on in my head right now. It's just that park bench scene from the first movie when he's in Switzerland. So who's the human? Huh? Huh? Who's the human? Clive Owen or, uh... God, I don't know. Is it Brian Cox? Is he the... Yeah, still Brian Cox. Yes. Brian Cox. Sorry. The titles get better, too, because the Gonzo supremacy is a movie I'm going to watch.

[01:08:04] Like... And then just Gonzo for the fourth one? Yeah. Yeah, like, these are things I'm going to watch. Wait. Does that mean there's a Jason Gonzo? Yes. Yes. Okay. But I can't let this go by without saying, Crow T. Robot had some pretty good moments of silence. Yeah. Like, would they just hang his bottom jaw open to indicate, like, dumbfoundedness? That worked really well. But also, both Cameron and Katie have snuck little things in. Cam said he wants to cling on to something.

[01:08:32] And Katie mentioned Spock's brain earlier. Yes. I saw that. I heard that, too. Those two things should be lauded for the accomplishments that they are. I like that you're keeping up running the list. Thank you. All right. They just slip out nowadays. Yeah. You should see my weather forecast. There are some days where I word for word, quote, Star Trek, and I don't think about it. And then it happens on air. And I'm like, oh. Somebody's like, she did that on purpose. And you're like, sure. Sure. Yes. My brain isn't broke by Star Trek. Sure. On purpose.

[01:09:01] I was going to hear from Melanie.

[01:09:31] Hi. Poor, poor Spock. Poor Spock. I really, really feel him. And I guess I can really see the emotions in his eyes. Ethan is amazing here. Spock is really going through a phase on a chaotic ship and is dumped again. Man. The poor thing. And I really, really love to bring in this episode. Here's laughing Spock and then kissing him still as a puppet before he wakes up. Oh my. So adorable. Of course, my favorite line is Pike when he says, I might be shorter and flabrier than usual, but I'm still the captain.

[01:10:01] But as I said, it's full of good lines. And Pelea, by the way, love a puppet. I love them all. And oh gosh, this turned into a favorite episode for me. And yes, I'm definitely going to watch it over and over again. Live long prosper. Melanie signing off. Yes to watch level five transporter incident again. Okay. Does three puppets in a trench coat count as a puppet? Because if it does, that's my favorite puppet. Oh my God.

[01:10:30] Like that was one of those moments where you're like, okay, this episode got it. And they shot it. It could end right now and I'm happy. And they shot it so seriously. Like when Pike is looking up and the hood reveals his face. Because you already know it's three puppets in a trench coat. There's nothing else it could be. The people I was watching with who didn't know the puppet episode was coming. Like just, this is so dumb. This is so dumb. I love it. It's so dumb. I'm like, that's the right reaction. Yes. Good job. It's stupid and I love it. It's the two combinations. Yes.

[01:10:58] Even the director, Jordan, kept saying that. It's like, it was so dumb, but so good. Yeah. Yes. And I mean, for people, people have really started to comment on like, hey, is the captain of this ship ever going to be on this show again? Like in any meaningful way? We had more Pike. This was more Pike in an episode than we've had so far this season almost. Yes. So yeah, we're, we're getting Pike back. He just, there he is. He's a puppet for him. I think, feel we should talk about Spock getting broken up with again.

[01:11:28] Like this episode, this series, I mean, this series has put Spock through the ringer. And I did, I was apprehensive going into the scene because you're like, oh, is this going to be the breakup scene? I felt like they handled it well because we like both characters and we want to, we want to be friends with both of them at the end. And that's kind of hard to do with a breakup scene in film and TV. Usually like one person is the bad guy. And I thought here, I was like, no, she's right.

[01:11:56] And you know, he's, he's dealing with it the best he can. And they're both logical thinking adults. Like we don't, we don't need another literal song and dance about Spock losing another girlfriend here. Yeah. I agree that it was well handled, especially because it's like, we've seen this before now on this show. So it's like, how much time are we going to spend on this breakup? If it's like a half episode, I'm going to be upset. Well, there have been three very different breakups. Sorry.

[01:12:26] Go ahead, Katie. Oh no, no. I was just completely like, you don't want to spend too much time on this because if we're already complaining about only 10 episodes, you don't want half of it being spent on a breakup. Right. And they've been very different breakups, you know, to bring was like, all right, it's obvious that this is not what you want or not what you're going to focus on. So we're done. Chapel was much more forceful, much more harsh. Like I am choosing to break away from you. And Laon is like, we have reached the net.

[01:12:54] I mean, it is a maturation in his relationships. I still think he's a little bit passive in his breakups. But, you know, somebody who could be accused of that himself, I'm not going to like hold him. I can relate with Spock. I'm not going to shine a spotlight on him without shining it on myself. But it is, I do like that it isn't the same thing again and again. It's not, this guy's a loser and keeps getting dumped by women better than him kind of thing. Right.

[01:13:20] And then there's the great moment between them and the med bay later on in this episode where like, oh, they're still handling it like adults. He's still, he's ginger with her just like he is with Tuping. And, you know, they have that good moment where she's like, you know, your ex-girlfriend might need someone to talk to her. Have you talked to her since she got turned into a puppet? That like, to have mature breakups. I feel like in television so often it's just explosive and I hate you, I hate you. It's like, this was like, hey, yeah, we just reached the natural end of our relationship,

[01:13:50] which some people I think in the real world may need to know that that's an option. And that's one of the teaching moments from Star Trek. Like, hey, cool. Let's still be friends. Let's just end the romantic part because I don't think it fits anymore. Okay. See you at dinner. Like, do it. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe the dance lessons, we'll leave those aside too. Yeah. Well, you can't have one without the other. Yeah. Not with those two. And on a personal note, Melanie, I was in a tourist town today having lunch with my family

[01:14:18] and maybe two tables from where I was was a German family. And it really made me miss you. I had so much fun with you in Star Trek Las Vegas. And I know we talked about the next time. And will it be here or will it be in Germany? And I got to say, like, thank you so much for the time we spent. That was a ton of fun. And everybody we met in Vegas. And we are going to be doing our STLV coverage episode soon. We do have to wrap this one up. We have one more call. And then it was all a dream discussion.

[01:14:47] Here is Matt Law. Hey, OpenPike. It's Matt from the Proof It To Me podcast. I think we're at a point where Strange New Worlds has its own voice. Rather than evaluate it against other Star Trek, I think it's more fruitful to evaluate it against itself. And what is itself? This show has pretty firmly settled itself into the theme of exploring art forms while telling a Star Trek story. Not gimmicks, you fucking lazy clickbait haters. Art forms. There's genre. Then there's art form. Then there's genres within art forms.

[01:15:15] Remember, Jim Henson showed us just how adult puppetry can be. So the question for each episode, especially this season, is how well did Strange New Worlds nail the art form while telling a Star Trek story? It's puppets this week. And admittedly, I came in with higher than normal expectations. I love a good puppet episode. Intro to Felt Surrogacy is an all-time favorite episode of Community for me. A gem in the middle of the gas leak year. This one, I think, is a solid B-minus Muppets in Space episode. If you've seen the actual movie Muppets in Space, you know, like a lot of Muppets

[01:15:45] movies, it's not an Oscar winner, but it knows what it is. Level 5 transporter accident knows what it is, too. The imperfections and corniness are intentional. That's what a Muppet movie is. Even still, this wasn't a perfect episode for me. I do think it fell just short of nailing the art form while telling a good story. Oh, but I absolutely treasured every scene with Rachel Harris and Jolo Trulio as a Ryan's. Absolutely fantastic. No notes. Live long and prosper. I just want to talk to you about Muppet movies now, Matt. Yeah.

[01:16:15] Where does Muppet Treasure Island fall? Because that's like an A-minus for me. Oh, okay. I mean... Yeah, yeah. Muppet Treasure Island is pretty damn good. I think it's solid. I think it might be due for a rewatch, honestly. I haven't seen... There's even some Muppet movies I've never seen, so... Yeah. Ooh. Yeah. And Matt, I want to talk to you about specificity in discussing things in media, because I absolutely agree with you. The thing that...

[01:16:40] One thing on that line that drives me crazy is when people say, I don't watch anime because I don't like that genre. And I'm like, that is not a genre. That is a medium. Oh, no. I am. I am. I am. Anime covers every genre you could think of, some that you can't, and a few you would probably prefer not to. But like, it is not a genre. I don't want to know those. It is a medium. Medium. So your specificity here means the world to me, Matt. Thank you.

[01:17:10] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Also, we do need to talk about Rachel Harris and Jello Trudio, because we are going to release our interview with them probably tomorrow. I should have it finished, so tune in on Sunday for that. Yeah. I love that they brought in these two icons of comedy to basically play the straight people on this episode, and it worked so well. It was brilliant. And the fact that they're memorable.

[01:17:38] Like, Characters of the Week, oftentimes, if you go back to TNG, Voyager, all that, you forget a lot of them. But they have personality that's going to make them last. So I really appreciate them going all out for their episode of Star Trek. Yes. Here's a tidbit from our interview, is that Rachel was in Voyager. One of her first acting credits was in Voyager as Marta. She played Kes' mom. Kes' mom. She's mom, Marta. Yeah. And I love that she was like, and I was nervous to let them know that, because I thought they'd

[01:18:06] fire me because I was already in the series. It was like, oh, Rachel, no. They don't worry about that. Yeah. Let us introduce you to Clint Howard. Clint Howard. Or one. You know, the reanimator. But yeah. Oh, yeah. Jeffrey Combs. Clint, thank you. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, it's like, you have these two characters whose job is to be incredibly

[01:18:34] unimpressed for most of the episode, right? Mm-hmm. But like, the moment where Spock is learning about the, you know, Orion structure of society matters. Mm-hmm. And this pirate gives him good, meaningful relationship advice. Like, that's impressive. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, man, just do the thing.

[01:19:02] Like, it's okay to just do the thing. Yeah. Just do it. I also just like that now, you know, with the movie Paul, Joe LaTruilio, anytime he interacts with aliens, he just gets lit on fire, apparently. Yeah. I did. What was Tupring's plan there? It's like, there wasn't much of a plan there. No. Just like, okay, I'm going to get caught and then somehow get out of it. Thankfully, his suit is super flammable. Why would a guy with that flammable a suit carry around a blowtorch? Yeah. Like, you're in a bar.

[01:19:32] Just have her splash alcohol on. But I love it. I think it was like the drink blowtorch. It wasn't even his. I think it was just from the bar. But I also love that. Sorry. Is there no open flames on Orion ships? Maybe he just doesn't know what higher is. I love, again, it's like, if this were a real scene, this would be horrifying. Horrifying. Yes, right. Just blowtorching somebody's hand. Yeah. Oh, man. But that's something else I said, and which I noticed is like, it was fun seeing these

[01:20:01] two actors in very different roles for them. It was fun seeing Rachel Harris be a badass pirate captain and Joe be like this, this sage advice giving green alien. And that, you know, knowing how much that meant to them also makes me watch their performances a little different and appreciate them more. Much the same way as like, knowing how much this episode meant to like the joy with Henry and Dana and Jordan talking about this episode. This episode means so much to them.

[01:20:29] Like Dana has been wanting to make a Muppet episode since she was a child and she got to. And yeah, that's choking me up. Like this is this episode is there floating in space. Well, I'm like just talking about it. We all have smiles on our faces this whole time. Like how many Star Trek episodes are you going through and you're talking about this and everyone's smiling. Yeah. Why are you mad at joy, internet? This episode is joy. And it's not even whimsy. It's not even that good. No, this is joy.

[01:20:58] Like this is a ridiculous, silly, fun, joyful episode. That's right. And you can have some issues with it. Like other people said, I'm not not torn. There are some plot issues I would prefer not have, but like, I don't care. I want to feel this way. Right. Yeah. And to your point about Rachel's performance, like when she pulled her sword on Pike, I was like, oh, this is a De'Ara Katendi scene from Lower Decks.

[01:21:24] Like, yeah, this is the pirate Orion captain that we're used to, like in all of the best ways, because it is also humorous. Like the level of put out that is on her face this entire episode, even when she is the one doing the threatening or when she shoots the red shirt and then he just stands back up. Like it is, it is so subtly like exactly what it should be. Right.

[01:21:51] Like everything is over the top except her performance, which is like perfectly calibrated to match against that. It's like she's, she's very similar to Spock in that way. But I think Spock has moments where he needed to be over the top. She doesn't have the emotional attachment to it. She's like, I just want the ship. Yeah. I just want the codes to this ship. I'm just trying to do my job. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Exactly.

[01:22:16] Which is a great parallel because she's unable to, despite all this puppetiness and all these other people can't do their jobs because they're puppety. It's, it's really well drawn. It is. Well, let's listen to this montage because a lot of our callers have thoughts. So let's go ahead and hear what they thought about. It was all a dream. I'm bummed that the twist was it didn't actually happen. It was a dream, which frankly, I thought was kind of an easy way out, but also the only

[01:22:45] way really to make it make sense. Yeah, but it didn't matter because it turned out to be all be a freaking dream. Low key kind of disappointed about that, but it makes sense because there's, that would be too much of a jumping the shark kind of episode. And at the end, we find out that the whole thing was just a dream. Is that a storytelling cop out or is it a relief? Once again, mixed feelings. Apart from Spock, all the character development we see here never really happened. And I think that's a shame.

[01:23:14] I am on the fence at the moment around the dream nature of a lot of the episode and it all being Spock's imagination. The ending saved it for me. The hijinks, even though I love hijinks, were just a bit too much for this to not be a dream. And I'm calling that a perfectly acceptable conclusion. I don't mind that in the end it was a dream, but I would have been happy with it standing the way it was. I guess I am a rather easy fan in that regard.

[01:23:40] So I really bought into this episode and I was a little disappointed at the end when it was just a dream. But I do think it propelled Spock's plot forward. I don't think it was a pointless episode. On the other hand, we only get 10 episodes a season and this one mostly doesn't count because it's just a dream. Spock and Supreme stories move forward a bit, but it's inconsequential for everyone else. That's my hang up. And the it was all a dream ending.

[01:24:08] I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing being a dream. I think I prefer it that way. Otherwise, what is Spock doing having sex with the puppet to bring like five hours after La'an breaks up with him? Which is also why I didn't like the final reveal. The it was all a dream cheat is such an overused trope. We tell first year creative writing students to avoid it. It also raises questions of why Spock was dreaming about emotional epiphanies and struggles

[01:24:35] of his crewmates while also working through his own issues and kind of nullifies the sweetness of that crew spacewalk moment. They never really experienced it or the resolution of Pike deciding not to keep his new chair, which only happened in Spock's subconscious. The reveal felt like a concession made to placate fans who'd say puppets are a bridge too far for Trek canon. But I wish they just had the guts to say it all really happened because I think they handled it well enough to justify it. I was somewhat 50-50 on the kind of cop out of it being a dream at the end because I was so actually buying into the puppet situation.

[01:25:05] Wow. A lot to go through there, but let's go back first. I didn't pick up that they had sex, but if you listen to our writer's interview, they absolutely had sex. Yes. I mean, it was a kiss, fall down to the bed, go out the window to see them floating in space. Yes, John. It's right there in classic filmic storytelling rules. And the whole crew is watching. Yeah. That's the part.

[01:25:33] That's the thing that's like, okay, here's where it's weird. Like, sure. He's sleeping with a puppet, but like, okay, that's weird. But the whole crew is literally watching. Having Henry read that scene from the script is one of my favorite parts of that. And yeah. Well, and I will say here, like, this was my bump, right? Because I was like, again, and to Melanie's point, maybe I'm an easy fan, but I was there.

[01:26:02] Like, I didn't need this to be explained away. I didn't need this to, I didn't need a clean slate or any of that. But I was convinced that when Spock said you were all puppets, Tupring was going to say, oh, no, only you were a puppet. The rest of us were trying to get you back to your normal self. Like, I was sure that it would be a misunderstanding and a perception-based thing. So I was initially kind of bummed about the dream thing.

[01:26:30] And part of that does come from that first year creative writing exercise. Like, you're told, just don't do this thing, right? Like, whatever you do, do not say, and it was all a dream. It's so funny because, like, no television or movie is real, right? You're never watching reality. But when you hear that dream at the end, you're always like, oh, what I just watched wasn't real. Yeah. Right. It's a bit of a mindfuck, but I agree. Yeah. It's an unreliable narrator writ large. Yes.

[01:26:58] And, like, personally, I'm still having a hard time with it. We have already seen, like we said, a character in Lower Decks got turned into a puppet. It's a thing that has already happened. And I did, I was disappointed. I'm like, because, again, that spacewalk, the space scene is very, very touching. I was tearing up. I'm like, and that didn't happen. And that scene steals it from them. Yeah. I had that.

[01:27:24] Well, I was just like, the immediate reaction I had was, oh, thank goodness I love this. Because I knew that it would, like, quiet down some of the online chatter. Like, on a very selfish note, I was like, oh, thank goodness I don't have to see more of this on Twitter. Like, but then the more I thought about it, I was like, yes, it's an overused trope. But we don't really get it overused in Star Trek. So you're watching it in kind of a vacuum.

[01:27:50] It's somewhat newish to Star Trek other than, I mean, heck, even the inner light still had some sense of realism because of the probe. But, like, it's not fresh within Trek. And I think that's an interesting point because usually, I mean, in those sort of examples, it does end up being, oh, so this has mattered to one character. Whether that character is Picard or maybe O'Brien. I think, I don't know if Cam has seen that episode.

[01:28:19] But, like, there are things that happen and take up a lot of time, usually a whole episode. And then it turns out it only really matters for that one character's plot or arc. And I think it's the same thing here. But I did still find myself having resistance to it. But I was able to kind of put myself in the spot of, like, well, this is okay because, A, it means that Spock really cares a lot about all these people.

[01:28:46] And even in his dreams, he's like, I want them to have this impossible joy of just existing in the void and being actually in space, not on a bridge, but in space and getting to experience that. And it doesn't change what matters for him, which I think is also important. But I do, I mean, there will always be part of me that's like, did this need to be a dream?

[01:29:11] Now, to that point, in the interview with the writers, they seem to think that this is a little more ambiguous of an ending. And, like, maybe it wasn't a dream. So, like, what's that all about? Well, I want to talk about that. But first, I mean, everyone make some room up on that fence for me because I need to crawl up there with you because I'm right there. I went on a journey with this. My initial reaction was, fuck this. Like, I was not happy about the dream for all the reasons we just said.

[01:29:39] And I kept being like, okay, they're going to go to 10-4 and she's pranking him, right? She's pranking him. This can't be a dream. I hate dream endings. But then the second time I watched it, I was like, okay, let's watch it as a dream. Let's watch it as a Vulcan anxiety dream. And it works really well that way. It works. Like, just, it's important for this character. And it's very important for this one character. And it does a lot for him. And, like, I think we've all had those anxiety dreams. And, like, I relate a lot with it there.

[01:30:07] The first time I watched it, I mean, one of my reactions with the dream thing was like, oh, well, I bought into it. Like, this is only a step further from Rascals, guys. This isn't that big a deal. Yeah. I think I must have watched this the first time on the planet from episode three because the second time I watched it was when I was like, I don't know. How has this felt sentient? How does the transporter work that it would put their consciousnesses into a felt body that could, I don't know. And then, like, the Pellier runner also felt like this works better as a dream.

[01:30:34] A lot of the fight stuff, you're like, okay, this really works better as a dream. So the second time I was like, I don't know. It does. Like, it's fun. I enjoyed that I could watch it two different ways. And it worked both ways for me. Both. Yeah. So both the director and the writers were like, eh, I don't know. Is it a dream? And I think both Jesse and I were like, well, yeah, the episode clearly says it's a dream at the end. There is no indication that little Ricky is magical, that something that he's going to blink. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:31:01] Like there wasn't like one little head twitch at the end, you know. Well, they don't establish him. It's like he found him in some like, you know, mystic gift shop with the Mogwais or anything. So I think genuinely I have one theory, which is like, oh, we're going to find out in the episode with Trelane that actually Trelane was little Ricky or like inhabited little Ricky and was doing this to mess with Spock, which would check out.

[01:31:28] And I kind of hope they do that because a Trelane situation makes all the puppet stuff make perfect sense. Like I like I enjoy all the level five transporter jokes like, well, it's not level six. Well, this is a level five situation, guys. It's funny as heck, but cute Trelane makes us make a lot more sense. But I think what actually happened is I think they didn't originally have the dream ending. And I think someone made them add it.

[01:31:52] I don't know if it was like a Kurtzman person or a Paramount person or just like half of the writer's room, but I think it was added at the end. It might not have even been shot first because Jordan says two things in her interview. She says, oh, they added some stuff, not specifying what. And she says, my favorite shot was that final shot of them kissing it in space, which is the final shot before the dream wake up. So I think that's actually what happened.

[01:32:18] Well, for better or worse, it sounds like for some people it worked and some it didn't. So mild. There was Declan. Yeah, right. Right. So I'm the thing that I came back to is like, to your point, Cam, like, OK, if this is a Trelane thing. Why? And then the answer I landed on was, well, Spock was kind of the one to foil Trelane the first time. A hundred percent.

[01:32:44] Because he was like, oh, I'm I'm perceiving reality as it's you know, I remember how reality is supposed to be. So what if Spock were the only one not perceiving reality as it was supposed to be? And then I was like, OK, well, is there are there any hints to that? And I don't know that there are explicitly, but we do have this red shirt that we have never met before. Who spends the entire episode kind of teaching them about the rules of this reality?

[01:33:12] Like, you can, you know, I mean, Pellia. I'll follow that thread. I think Pellia is the answer because she gets cut in half and everything's fine. But this guy gets shot. He gets a big hole in his chest and he's fine. He spends the whole episode terrified and not really speaking. So like if you're undercover as a Trelane, this is where you would hide. Right. You'd want to be on the bridge where everything is happening. Never leaves the bridge. And I don't know. So I but here's the other thing.

[01:33:41] There is absolutely a fair argument to be made that I should not have to do this much work at the end of an episode to go. Hey, maybe it was a Trelane thing and that'll happen. We'll find that out. And like, I think that's a fair argument to be made. And I end up landing on I'm OK with this because of what it does for Spock. But I do personally kind of wish that it had not been part of this story, that it was a dream.

[01:34:10] Like, I would have been 100 percent. OK. Dana and Henry think of this as this happened. Right. They are not buying into the dream explanation. They said they put it there to appease some people. I wish it could have been more ambiguous. I wish it could have been more of an inception ending. Right. And it fits because Spock is in the start of this episode. He's nervous about how to pring feels about hijinks. So if he's going to have a stress dream, it's going to involve hijinks and to pring. And like one last kiss between them.

[01:34:39] And like she pulls away. It's a close up. And then he just pulls a piece of fluff out of his mouth or something. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Get in that writer's room, John Boltz. Now, John has started a new tag on AO3. Yeah. Yeah. I try not to rewrite it. I know I've been guilty of it before. But yeah, the dream part. Oh, well. It's what it is. And you know what's the cool part about this is it's an episode that gets people talking like this.

[01:35:08] Like the other side of the coin of, oh, great. I shouldn't have like I don't want to have to have to explain all these things. Wait, you get the chance to. It wasn't just kind of handed to us. It gets the talk online going. It should be a good bump theoretically for Strange New Worlds in terms of like online discussion. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to that point, like there's a lot more to talk about the inner light that we don't see on screen than we do see on screen.

[01:35:32] Like the conversations you can have about what happened there and how that all transpired and what the ramifications are are endless. So, yeah. I mean, this is an inner light. There's a lot of literal entire episodes of Star Trek that some fans are like, that episode doesn't count. I don't watch that episode when I do my rewatch because I don't believe it's real. There's less episode of Enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. So like there are and yeah, the gas leak season of community.

[01:35:59] Like it has happened before where you've had to say to yourself, like this doesn't count for me personally. So I think I think the reason it feels so acute is because there are 10 episodes and like we all lament that we all wish we were getting 26 episodes. And I'm not here to tell you get over it. But I am here to say, let's watch the show we have like this is what we're getting. So we'll discuss it as it is.

[01:36:26] And I think part of that fairly part of that discussion is to vocalize when you're like, I don't necessarily agree with that specific choice. But again, have to emphasize, appreciate that nobody who called in said that makes this a bad episode. Yeah. They said, here's how I feel about it. And that means the world to me. And it speaks to the intellectual and emotional intelligence of this fandom. Just fully agree. Oh, does anybody have any final thoughts on the episode before we wrap up?

[01:36:57] I think we got it all. I mean, I was going to say it's bad timing having Scotty invented an electric glove with the ice news. But in 20 years when we look back, hopefully we're not thinking about that anymore. So, you know. The montage of the puppet fight at the end is like, it's so fun. Pelley abiding the guy. Scotty shocking the guy. Lon literally like three stooging the other guy in the eye. Yeah.

[01:37:25] Like, and Cameron, I don't know how you have not said the words toss me yet. Yeah. But like, that's the fix. Pike is like, okay, here's what we're going to do. Well, actually, Spock comes up with it. Like, I'm going to have to toss you. Like, don't tell the Vulcan. I think that the thing that I'm most looking forward to from this episode is the little Rickies at STLB. I think that's going to be.

[01:37:52] I just set myself a new thing to look forward to a year in advance. I'm very happy with that. We will make this. We are making a pact right now. Talk about craftsmanship. Like, in an episode full of Muppets where everyone is like, they're so cute. I love them. They're perfect. The little Ricky puppet is offensive to look at. Okay. Yeah. And I got to say, there's one line. Mbenga says, it is a slept on joke unless you are a quilter or make stuffed animals.

[01:38:20] Quantum polyfill is one of the funniest fucking lines ever. Quantum polyfill. I am here for them being Muppets because quantum polyfill is such a good niche joke that I have not heard enough people talk about. Yes. That's another thing I want to put on line two is like all these people saying, oh, I wish they hadn't made this episode. So you don't want puppet Pellia in your life? Like, what are we doing here, folks? We need an episode just on that hair. Like, I need to.

[01:38:50] I need a how it's made on Pellia's hair. And I've spent the whole episode trying to be diplomatic. But if you don't want puppet Pellia in your life, that's just an incorrect opinion. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry. That's just how that is. But I will take this opportunity to say, if you haven't watched the video version of our interview with director Jordan Canning, go check it out. Cameron literally has a Cameron puppet.

[01:39:17] And to me, that is like another reinforced truth of I made the correct choice to do a podcast with John and Cameron. I'm like, that is. Yeah. Are you hilarious? Okay. Nice. Let's see if I can. I've got him right here. I made a Star Trek and chill. I made a Zephram Sokran. Yes. A little booze bottle. In his little hat. He's drunk. I love it. Oh, that hat is perfect. Wailie arms. That's amazing.

[01:39:48] I'm not the only one who just has puppets staring at me while I stream. All right. Somebody cut that video clip and put Ooby Dooby behind it and call it a day. I wanted to get the photo op at STLV, but I didn't want to scar the man for life. That's fair. I've seen some of those photo ops. That would have been one of the less scarring photo ops for him, I think. So, Katie, tell our listeners where they can find you, follow you, and what you got. Yes.

[01:40:18] You can find me at weather underscore Katie. I'm pretty much all the social medias. And you can find me at so many random fandoms on YouTube, though life has been so busy. I haven't had a chance to update that. But also, with life being busy, you can probably find me at any Midwest Comic Con at this point. That's fantastic. And it was great to see you in Star Trek Las Vegas. Don't want to let that slip by. That was great. I mean, I know that for a large portion of the fandom, you are a relentless beam of sunshine.

[01:40:47] So thank you for bringing that to us today. We appreciate that. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. You all are the best. And we really appreciate our patrons and our callers especially. We love that we have so many calls that we can't even get to them all in an episode. But Jesse, how can folks get their voice on Open Pike Night if they haven't had a chance to call in before? The easiest way to do it is to just go to openpike.com. You can record your message right there on the website. All you need is a phone.

[01:41:15] But if you find yourself needing to edit or maybe speed up your audio a little bit to fit 90 seconds, absolutely feel free to send an MP3 to openpike at gmail.com. And it's been a long night. And the Open Pike Night crew, well, we just got to go make puppets, man. It is time to get the Puppet Workshop opening for Open Pike Night. So be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here. Open Puppet Night. I got there. Open Puppet Workshop. Open Puppet Workshop.

[01:41:45] Open Puppet Workshop.