SNW S4E7 - “Like Chronitons Through The Hourglass”

[00:00:09] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds podcast where your calls are the prime directive.

[00:00:31] I'm your host John T. Boulds, here today to talk about Season 4, Episode 7, Like Chronitons Through The Hourglass. But joining me as always because I could not do this alone, I need at least three other camera operators. First up, the man who is a pretty decent camera operator, Cameron Harrison. My love for this season of Strange New Worlds is equal to Trelane's love for his jacket.

[00:00:56] And the man who, my god, my god, that isn't Jesse Bailey, that's Jesse Bailey. It's always the person you least suspect. But really quickly on the title of this episode, before we sat down to record, my daughter asked me, what's this episode called? And I said, it's called like Chronitons Through The Hourglass. And she went, what's an hourglass? She didn't ask what a chronicon is. No, she wants to know what an hourglass is.

[00:01:25] So I was like, well, it's a piece of glass that has, and then she walked away. So I was like, all right. I have a whole story about age discrimination in the workplace, but it doesn't fit with this. So anyway, we'll move on. That just reminded me of it. Well, my age discrimination workplace story is I was having a pretty rough day at work the other day, but then apparently some kids told their dad that he looked like not just Dr. Strange, a young Dr. Strange. And I was like, I will absolutely take that.

[00:01:56] Yeah. Hell yeah. I mean, sure, but Dr. Strange is cool because he has the gray streaks, right? The gray streaks. Yeah, that's true. So I'm only going uphill is what you're saying. I would love it if you would be like the first person to start dying your hair butt gray, like instead of trying to cover them up. Butt gray? Is that a shade of gray? Instead of trying to cover the grays up. Yes. Jesse, have you never heard of Touch of Gray? Oh. The gray hair dye for men? John, have you used that?

[00:02:26] No, but that was a big thing in the late 90s, early 2000s. I'm pretty sure spurned on by soap operas. Yeah. I was busy watching episodes of Days of Our Lives with my mother, so I didn't see that. Now this is going to be interesting knowing how we all feel about this episode and who among us has actually watched soap operas in the past. I wonder if there's correlation there. Yeah, like, hmm. I don't know if you guys want to just get this out. Let's do it. Let's do it.

[00:02:55] This is not my favorite episode. Like, I was convinced. I mean, specifically because people didn't care about A Case of Karaskuro. People actively disliked the Muppet episode. I was like, oh, they're going to hate the soap opera episode. And for the first time, I was like, I'm going to understand the dislike of this episode because it just did not hit me. Like, most of the episodes hit me.

[00:03:23] Now, I have since rewatched it. And I think it is better than I thought it was on the first watch. I still have issues with it. But I think, as is often the case with Star Trek, the actors make it work. And the emotional core of this episode is why people are, why it's resonating with people. And that makes total sense. That part I have no complaint about. Like, I think Pike's performance in particular, I mean, it really does hit home.

[00:03:51] And it's a very good, all of the actors do a great job. I just, I don't know. Maybe there was like some part of me left over from being a child who watched soap operas, not necessarily by choice. Like having a, like a leftover embarrassment for myself or something like, I don't know. Cause they're not, there's nothing wrong with soap operas inherently. Obviously like the long running soap operas have like 15,000 episodes.

[00:04:21] They wouldn't just keep making them if nobody was watching them. Right. I just, there was something about this episode that did not quite land for me. And I think we'll get into that, but this is, I guess I get one, a season now where I'm like, eh. I love this episode. All right.

[00:04:39] I think, I think in 15, 20 years when season four goes through the, uh, star Wars prequels glow up and everybody starts saying how amazing it is. And after shit talking it for two decades, I think this episode will come out on top of that pile and people will be like, oh wait, no. That episode is layered and does a lot of heavy lifting for being a soap opera. And it really does.

[00:05:04] I, I think this is a very, very tidally neatly put together and fun episode. I didn't know what to expect about this episode. I admit when I heard like they were doing a soap opera, I was like, I don't know if that's the genre I want to see. Uh, it snuck up on me. Like the first half there's, there's like communal laughter. There's performative laughter. And then there's sitting by yourself in a room, head back, cackling and clapping laughter, which I was doing throughout the first half of this episode.

[00:05:31] And then just like tears welling for the second half that wouldn't stop. I was emotionally affected by this episode. I, I will say kind of opposite of Jesse upon further reflection and rewatches. I was like, okay, I do see where there could be some improvements. I could maybe see where some people would have trouble with some stuff in this episode. I'm very much looking forward to once the DVD comes out, if no one else does, I'm going to recut this episode with all the deleted scenes and the intro where it should be and the commercial breaks where they should be.

[00:06:01] Cause I think that will be, that will be the ultimate version of this episode. But, uh, for what it is like, yeah, I mean, I have no complaints with the way it affected me. I had a great time watching this episode. So I'm the only one here who watched DS nine as it came out. DS nine was heavily accused and criticized as being a soap opera when it was coming out. And DS nine, cause we are watching a little bit ahead here in this household of where Cam is right now. We're in season four.

[00:06:30] Now I'm like, this is the best damn star Trek show ever. And it still is the best damn star Trek show ever. And it's like, yeah, it's a little soap opera. And guess what? It works in that. It works in this. Yeah. I, and I don't want it to come across as like, I have something against soap operas because I really don't. I mean, I watch a lot of anime and a lot of anime is like, this is just a soap opera, except it's not live action. Right.

[00:06:58] Um, and I really like a lot of those. Like I recently watched all of my dress up darling in like three nights. Cause I was like absolutely hooked on it. And that is pretty soapy. Um, I think for me, it was just like, I don't know, maybe this is the first instance of the whiplash between genres.

[00:07:21] Cause I know a lot of folks have mentioned having that before and I'm, I don't really seem to be affected by it, but maybe this is the time that, that I was affected by that. And to the episodes credit, I feel like I'm seeing almost exclusively people loving it. I have seen very little negativity about this episode, which is surprising and refreshing. Well, let's go ahead and hear from the first of our callers to see how they feel about it. Here is Gudis. Hello, Gudis here.

[00:07:51] I thought I better call in for this one. I've been a bit slight this season, but can't have a restart the episode and not have a call in about it. So it was so cool that they got him back. And, uh, I just, uh, I loved this episode. Everyone just gave such amazing performances. Uh, I love the Cyborg one. All of those scenes were just great.

[00:08:19] And what a like incredible final scene of the episode too. That was very intense. And yeah, I thought it was very clever bringing in Cyborg. I love the Cyborg actually, because I'm a bit of an oddball who actually really likes the final frontier movie.

[00:08:36] And, um, and that was the aspect of that movie that I particularly like is the way they delve into people's, uh, memories and decisions they've made about lives and the past not taken. And that's really what the episode is about. So it was just such a clever way to introduce the character, but not introduce the character after we got that, you know, uh, hint that we were going to get him ages ago.

[00:09:06] And then I thought, oh, of course they bring him in now. And then the twist that all people wasn't actually there. Oh, anyway, very impressed with this episode. And, uh, it was so exciting. I really respect. Goodest Mr. Voice. Uh, also like, I feel when I asked talk, when I talk to people about Star Trek five, like people who say, you know what, that's it. It's not that bad out numbers. People who say, I hate that movie, like nine to one.

[00:09:34] Like most people are like, look, there's a lot of good stuff in that movie. And I'm, I'm one of them right there. Well, and Star Trek has things that, you know, are like poorly made, but you still love. Right. Like that's, that's the thing. The problem with Star Trek five is it ends so bad. When you walk out, you're thinking about the ending. You're not thinking about like the hour and a half of good stuff leading up to it. Yeah.

[00:09:56] Uh, but yeah, I mean, I think you bring up a good point, Goudis, and I was kind of slow to realizing this, but this episode was made to be a soap opera because you have the evil twin trope you've got to use. And I think having Cybock be the evil twin, it makes so much sense. And it's super hilarious that he is a twin when he's not, but of course in this version, he is.

[00:10:16] And I, I love that part of it, but in an episode where the whole emotional point is that Pike has to stop bottling up his emotions and he has to talk to a therapist and he has to get this pain out to bring in a character whose whole thing is share your pain and to have him be an evil twin. Like it's all circular in the soap opera milieu. Yeah. Yeah. And I do, I mean, bravo to the choice of just putting Ethan Peck in a wig. Like that is the correct choice to make.

[00:10:45] I think that was really well done. Um, and I, I was glad to see Trillane again. I thought it was funny that he tried to actually introduce himself this time. And Pike was like, I don't want to know your name. Although he gets like truh out. So I mean, yeah, what other name is he? Trevor? Yeah. Yeah. And that we get some more tying in of that character to the Q continuum. Yeah. The judge's robes on the proctor. I think I, first of all, gorgeous costume. I'll just preempt you there, Abby.

[00:11:15] But I also think it does deepen the lore of the Q continuum and of Star Trek, right? It's cool to see the moment when they decide like, okay, yeah, these people are worth a little bit more examination. And then of course Q definitely falls into that. And I think what's really interesting about this. And one of the parts I did really like is that Trillane kind of ends up doing what Q sort of always ends up doing, which is, oh, I'm going to mess with you.

[00:11:44] But actually he's there to totally help you out. Like he's, he's going to help you work through something. He's going to help you realize something about yourself. He's egging you toward improvement, right? But he cloaks it in this like mischievous attitude. So I, I think it is a really well drawn character. It's a great use of Trillane. And again, I, I want it very clear that I don't have any problem with any of the performances in this episode. I mean, that brings up a good point.

[00:12:10] And John, I owe you an apology because in our writer's interview and the outline, I accidentally wrote Q. I kept writing Q when I met Trillane. And I think, no, I stumbled a little bit on that. I was saying Q and I meant Q. I was talking about the proctor as, cause that was a, okay. When we brought, well, we were talking about bringing Q back and is he responsible for the genre of shifts or whatnot and everything. And even as I was writing these notes, I kept writing Q. I kept saying Q in my head. I'm like, why am I doing that? And I think it's because he behaves more like Q.

[00:12:39] So then Trillane, he is very much a Q character here. Well, and yeah, I think that's what you take away is that he is a Q. Like he picked a name, but he's a Q. Yeah. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from Newman. Newman, the space hippie movies for days calling in on what I can confidently say is not only my least favorite episode of this season, but quite possibly my least favorite episode of strange new worlds ever. Like everything Reese Darby does.

[00:13:08] I just love his inclusion, his use of the phrase body cleaning theater and the transition from sick bay into Pike's final scene where the doors close and then open and dislike pretty much everything that had to do with the soap opera convention and everything it does to the music, to the pacing, to the cinematography, to the writing and acting. I just could not get into this.

[00:13:34] I also am noticing a pattern with these episodes where there seems to be a metal line to the audience telling us to just turn our brains off and have fun. This example is Spock at the end saying, I would encourage you not to read too much into what happened. It was by nature contrived. I wish, I wish they had made a fake commercial to cut to.

[00:13:56] I wish that the people making this show had tried to do an episode about Pike dealing with the emotional fallout of this daughter that didn't technically exist and Uhura trying to mentor Asha and not feeling ready, feeling sort of stuck. I feel like there is a real missed opportunity in some of these episodes. I don't look forward to new episodes now with excitement, but with trepidation. Newman the space hippie out.

[00:14:26] I'm not quite on that level, Newman, but I completely hear you. And I think that that's kind of subconsciously my resistance to this episode. Like you can do these stories without it being a soap opera. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I think they have to do it without being a soap opera. I just that you can see the bones of great story and character beats here. And you ask yourself, did this have to be done in this manner?

[00:14:56] And I think I agree that it's like, I kind of would love to see an episode about Pike dealing with this because yeah, his last scene and his scenes with Juliet are really powerful. Like very, very good job. But did he need this contrived, like force you to deal with it sort of set up to get there?

[00:15:22] I don't know. I think it raises a lot of questions and that's probably why they had Spock say that, right? Because it's like, okay, well now how many people know Cybok exists? And why don't any of those people tell James? Like we all tell James everything. And if this counselor has been on the ship the entire time, why has nobody gone to see her yet? Like this is, it just, it raises questions.

[00:15:48] And you're right that the episode does discourage you from asking those, but come on, we're Trekkies. We're going to ask these questions. I mean, I saw someone else ask the thing about the therapist. I'm like, they have gone to seen her. We haven't seen her, but there's been lines of dialogue about people going to see the counselor. Yeah, well, Ann has been to counseling with more than just Nurse Chapel. So has Ortegas. I will agree with Newman about the, what did he say, meta line, through lines.

[00:16:14] I'm going to say almost moral of the stories or knowing as half the battles of this season from each episode. There absolutely are, for some reason, a through line of like, this is a, we're going to really state it right on, you know, right on the page. This is the moral you should take from this story in this season. It's a little strange and it, it is a through line. It is, it's happened in almost every episode so far. That might just be like modern TV writing. I know.

[00:16:44] Is that, is that the second screen viewing? It might be. And I mean, I mean, you can't, it could be the second screen thing. And it's half the metal. Well that, and it's like, people are just not as good at watching TV now. And I don't think this is our audience. I don't think this is Trekkies in general, but like you see a lot of stuff, you know, online and discourse about episodes are like, oh, so they just did this. And it's like, no, they, they made a choice to do that thing.

[00:17:11] So maybe this is writers choosing to say like, okay, what if we just told you what we're doing? Would that be okay? Yeah. So perhaps, but yeah, I mean, to answer the question, like, does it have to be a soap opera? It doesn't have to be a soap opera, but if you want to tell an episode about people coming to terms with emotions, they're keeping buried. You want something to bring that out.

[00:17:34] And whether it's a musical where people are now singing out secrets that they should be holding in, or whether it's some sort of mind control or whether it's a telosian pulling the image of Julia out of Pike's head. I mean, having a Q entity come in and rile things up. Like when I was rewatching this, the first 15 minutes, I'm like, this is a sci fi episode. You got a character. Reality is not comporting to reality because an extra dimensional being is controlling things for their own game. I mean, it doesn't get more Star Trek than this.

[00:18:03] It's just happens to be in the format of an eighties, nineties soap. And, you know, I think if you're, if you need some sort of a device to make people express their emotions, I mean, it's as good as anything else. But I think the key is that a lot of us don't need a device for that. We can just have the characters, but the whole, you need some, you need a, but the whole point of Pike is that he is burying it so deeply. And the whole point of soap opera is that it is all out there.

[00:18:31] Like I do, you know, I haven't watched a lot of soap operas. I know the reason it is called that is because like opera, the characters literally say every emotion and thought they have. And that is how the story is told. And so it's, it's a forcing of the issue for Pike. Because soap operas were the second screen storytelling before second screens. It was storytelling for people cooking and cleaning and doing laundry while watching TV. It was designed for people who are distracted. I mean, just to kind of bring it full circle that way.

[00:19:00] And these are not bad points, but like you do have episodes like family, right? Where it's like, they just tell you at the start, Picard needs to go deal with some stuff. But I'm saying that's a plot device. Going back and seeing his brother is a plot device. I understand. I'm just saying like, I can see where people are coming from when they say, I don't want the plot device to be this. No, sure. I'm not saying either way is correct. This is a more sci-fi plot device than going home and seeing your brother.

[00:19:29] That's almost more soap opera. Family is more soap opera in its bones than this episode is what I'm saying. Because to get Pike to confess his feelings. Otherwise, what are you having my dinner with Andre? Like otherwise it is only 60 minutes of heavy, heavy sobbing in the counselor's office. Goodwill hunting. It's not your fault kind of scenes. Well, and I mean, I would take Robin Williams and my Star Trek. Yes.

[00:19:56] Perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm looking for the episode where Pike and Mbenga go on a fishing trip and they both talk about the daughters that they're missing and the futures that they lament not having with them. But I will relent for the moment so we can get to our next call. All right, let's go ahead and hear from Sarah. Hi guys. It's Sarah slash Doug. So, I'm not sure I wanted this episode.

[00:20:21] Not because it was bad, but I feel like of all the episodes so far, this one was for a North American audience with references and people and things that just were not familiar to me. And I know I was missing things. And so it just didn't really hit.

[00:20:41] Um, so, so not having that sort of cultural, um, North American experience, which is a shame, but the episode I did want was, was hinted and I want land breaking cyborg out of prison episode. I think that would be amazing. Okay. Thanks guys. That's an angle I hadn't considered because I know, I know like other countries have what we would call, but it makes, I don't know about Europe though.

[00:21:10] And I wasn't familiar with teacher hall either. Well, and it makes total sense that all of the conventions wouldn't be the same. Right. So like it might not feel like what you expect from a soap opera or what you would identify as a soap opera. I think that makes total sense, but I do. I think we should, we should, I feel like I should mention, I think Deidre Hall did a great job. This, this person has range. There's a reason she's been in like 5,000 episodes of TV or something like that.

[00:21:38] Um, yeah, I mean, I might start watching now just because of her. She was a great, yeah. And if you do wait till you get to like 1994 or 90, maybe 94 to 96. Uh huh. So I remember watching this as a kid. There is a plot line where her character becomes possessed by the devil. I've discovered this because that's the, that's the plot line. Uh, Ryan Gosling. If you watch her, I think it was our director's interview. I, Anna Decoza talks about Ryan Gosling shouting her out.

[00:22:06] So I went to go watch it and he talks about that. And I looked up clips. I want to start watching soap operas. Now this looks incredible. It is like they went hard. There's also a, like to, to, to really illustrate that I'm coming from a point of experience here. Like there's also a plot line where the character Sammy loses her sight temporarily. And she has like kind of this Southern accent that is always there.

[00:22:33] And I can't remember if that's for the character or if that's just how the actor sounds, but she has this moment where she wakes up and she goes, I can't see. And my mother, when she started getting cataracts before she had her surgery, pulled that line out of nowhere. We're like, mom, what's going on? She goes, I can't see. And we all just like died laughing because it's like, and to your point, like, yeah, it's a big emotional thing.

[00:22:57] Like you're definitely worried about your mother's eyesight, but if she can use this raw emotion of humor to kind of ease you into it, it really helps. So like I, for me, I'm not against the idea of soap operas. I'm just landing on the side of, did I need this device, this particular device here? I understand we need a device, but did it have to be this device? I mean, that's always a tricky question because do you need any device? The question is, does the device work for you? Right.

[00:23:25] And I think ultimately the episode, like pieces of the episode, I was kind of like, eh, on, but I think it actually ends up working because of the performances. Like I said earlier, like you believe, and you know that Pike has this history and you, you're glad to see him deal with it, especially because Star Trek doesn't always do that. There's a lot of, I mean, frequently people will say like, oh yeah, back to work next week. Why hasn't data been court-martialed? Why hasn't he been taken off the ship? You know?

[00:23:53] So, but yeah, the, the angle of, um, kind of just not being in on the references is an interesting one I hadn't considered. Yeah. Oh yeah. Uh, let's go ahead and hear from Michelle. Hey, open pipe night. This episode was a bit of a rough start for me because I am not a soap opera fan and I did not know that this genre was coming. I was unspoiled.

[00:24:17] So in the beginning I paused it, washed my glasses, came back and realized in the words of Beverly Crusher, if there's nothing wrong with me, there must be something wrong with the universe. And there was, they were stuck in a soap opera and don't get me wrong. I think they nailed the homage. My mom loved her soap operas. So I've seen them, but made me feel not great. But eventually slowly the episode won me over. Ethan Peck as Cybok, delightful.

[00:24:44] He is just eating up everything they're throwing at him this season. And can we talk about Anson Mount? All the flowers. I adore Pike because of his performance. From the comedic frustration in the beginning to the heartbreaking scene at the end, he runs the gamut here and I was here for it. I followed his character all the way through. That won me over for the episode. I also like the way they're trying to take away the stigma of therapy. And that, yes, it's okay to be vulnerable.

[00:25:14] It's okay to talk about your feelings. Some of the Star Trek creatives haven't always felt that way. And if you don't believe me, go listen to the Generations movie commentary with the writers. I'm glad we've progressed. I hope you guys enjoyed it, too. I'm looking forward to definitely hearing your thoughts. And can we just say Deirdre Hall? Major Beverly Crusher vibes. That jacket, or dare I say lab coat? Bev would have rocked that. But anyway, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Live long and prosper. That jacket, indeed.

[00:25:43] It's incredible. But yeah, I think the Anson of Vidal is what makes this work for me. And not just the emotional stuff, because, I mean, 100%. But just seeing Captain Pike be the one. I don't know if we've ever seen him be the straight man. Be the one that everything crazy is happening around him. It's like one of my favorite Pike lines is when T'Pring and Spock get body swapped. And they have the line of, like, I think you could probably tell the difference between us. And he's like, yeah, sure. And does the little eye look. One of the best Pike moments ever back in season one.

[00:26:13] This is like a whole episode of that moment. And I am here for it. I'm here for him. Like, just trying to figure things out and dealing with the insanity going on around him. I can understand why, like, the soap scenes of all the soap characters together might not work. I don't understand why any scene with Pike would not work for everybody. And I agree with that. And I think, like, watching him, like, check other actors' sight lines to try and figure out what they're looking at. Acknowledging the musical.

[00:26:42] Is this the first time that a character gets to talk to Nami directly? He gets to acknowledge Nami back in the musical. Nami, the composer's presence? Yeah, it's so good. I'm glad you brought it. I'm glad you put it that way, Cam. This might be my favorite Pike episode since pre-Time Crystal on Discovery. Like, yeah, this is the kind of Pike I've been missing.

[00:27:12] And I think this is the right episode for it. So, yeah, I think I hadn't thought about that. But, man, it might be my favorite Pike of this entire series so far. It's very TOS in that way, too. Like, have the captain be the guy who needs to figure it out, fix it, solve it, triumph over whatever it is. Be that, you know, an enemy or an emotion or, you know, something within. So I think that's a really good point.

[00:27:38] And I just, again, I don't want it to come across that I think it's a bad episode because I don't. It just, it's not my favorite episode. Just the point when during the therapy with Ahura and Dr. Chivers, when he starts, like, mocking them or, like, you know, big discovery. Remember? Like, just Petulant Pike is not a Pike we get a lot. And it's so fun to watch. I love it. I love it so much. Yeah. And Fatidra Hall, like, it's never a joke for her. Right.

[00:28:07] It's never, she's, as soap opera royalty, she never makes it feel like a soap opera. Like, every conversation she has is, she is there, whether it's in a soap opera or not, she is there to help Pike. And wants to help Pike and wants to help everybody. But obviously, the whole thing is pointing toward his issue with Juliet, with his daughter. Well, that's part of what impresses me so much. Because those first scenes with her, she is playing, what's her character's name? Marlene. Dr. Marlene.

[00:28:35] I mean, she is in full soap opera mode. And then the next scene in the, in, in the port galley, she's kind of somewhere in between. She's a, she's a little bit aware. She's like, well, what if it is a soap opera? And then she gives like a defensive soap operas that I found as not a fan of soap operas, quite moving when she's like talking about the emotional truth buried within them. And then the final scene where she is as naturalistic as you can be, like she shows the full, the full run. And I just, I became an immediate fan having no idea who she was beforehand.

[00:29:06] Well, and that's, I mean, that's why soap operas work on a lot of people, right? Is because it is played straight. Like, I mean, it's real similar to sci-fi, right? Where it's like, yeah, you have this wacky setting and all these crazy unrealistic things going on. But if you play it straight, then the emotional truth does come through. So I think it is, it's almost like, like you mentioned it being a defensive soap operas. I think it's maybe even broader than that.

[00:29:35] Like, this is why we need television and acting and drama at all. Like, this is what makes that a worthwhile art form. And I think the episode does land it. I think because of what they're dealing with, it ends up landing. I don't know if anybody mentions it, but I'm going to take this moment to say, I love Ortegas in this episode. She gets like, what, three scenes, maybe? But she goes from like, oh, is she devious? To like, no, she cares a lot.

[00:30:05] And then like, oh, she's, you know, she's back to totally regular Ortegas. Ortegas. Like, I think that Melissa Navia did a great job. I'm glad we finally got some more of her eyebrow raising acting. Like, she's very good at that. And in another universe or reality, she would play a Vulcan really well. Well, and to Michelle's point of TNG references, I also love, I don't know if it's a reference, but when in that scene, when Dr. Chivers was talking about the emotional truth and scientific truth, and can they be the same thing? It reminded me of Picard's.

[00:30:36] Historical truth. Personal truth. Yes. And also, great shout out with Space Adventures. Like, you can only go on so many Space Adventures. Like, oh, nice little tie back to last season. Well, that's what I, just because you brought it up, John, I'm sorry. But like, this episode feels, because we all thought we were going to get that with Space Adventure Hour last season. When we saw the trailers, we're like, oh, we're going to get like the 60s pastiche version of Strange New Worlds. And then, of course, it just wound up being a clip, maybe two clips.

[00:31:05] And this was the whole episode. Basically that, the space madness, the cosmic amnesia. Like, this, I feel like this is what we were asking for with that, and I was there for it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I'll take this opportunity to disagree with you, Cameron. They should not have put that intro at the start of this episode. They absolutely should have. And the commercials. I'm glad they didn't. All right.

[00:31:35] We have a write-in from Anthony Kelly. Couldn't call this time. He said, I hate this episode for making me cry twice. But seriously, it was a good episode with great production and performances as expected. I think it would have been better with the soap credits and ad spots placed within the show itself. My only other gripe is that the control room plot felt underdeveloped. The most impactful part of the episode, though, the idea of grief partly being mourning the loss of the future with somebody.

[00:32:02] It's a reminder that we really should treasure every precious moment while we can. As always, peace and long life. Anthony Kelly. So. Okay. Well, then Anthony and Cameron, I'll take this opportunity to politely disagree with you. I think if they put these soap credits at the start of this episode, you're going to lose 50% of people immediately. Like, people are going to go in upset that it is a soap opera.

[00:32:30] I think starting with Pike waking up on the table is the way to do it. Yes, that's the cold open. Okay. This would replace the regular credits. This wasn't originally intended. I think there's been some big studio meddling this season. I think so, too. We know it from the puppet episode. I'm pretty sure it's happened here because they said the credits were supposed to be. Because last season, we got all sorts of goofy credits. None this season. Although 80% of the episodes kind of like cry for it. Yeah.

[00:33:01] So, here's the thing. I don't dislike that. I think it's good to have it in here. I'm glad that we got to see it. I'm glad we got to see it. I love the cheesiness of it. Like, Pike's being off balance behind his turning headshot is a little like, okay, that's silly. Which is fine.

[00:33:22] I think it works at the end because it's like, oh, here are the pieces that this student, Trelane, made for his project that didn't make it into his final draft for whatever reason. There's a point where Trelane says, like, in Q credits with Pike there, or commercial. Q commercial. And I was wondering if in the script it was written T-U-E or Q when he says Q credits. But anyway, when he cuts the commercial. And I'm like, if we had had the commercial here, I really feel that would have added to, like, Pike's.

[00:33:51] Like, we as the audience would be like, what is happening? We are trapped in this reality we cannot control. And it is all consuming. Now, the commercial, I'd have been fine with. Like, yeah, put the commercial in there. That's fine. You didn't have a problem with any of the gimmicky credits. It's last season, Jesse. And I don't in general. Or season two. But my guess is that a lot of people skip the credits, right? Like, there's a skip intro button and a lot of people probably press that. Yeah, but that's also programmable.

[00:34:19] Not every episode has to have that. Every Star Trek season premiere does not have skippable credits in every series. Right. But I could understand as the people who are making it, you want to make sure people see this. Don't put it there because a lot of people will skip it. You don't put it at the very end of the credits then, Jesse, if you want people to see it. You got to put it somewhere. I almost missed it. Right? You have to put it somewhere. Yeah, you put it in the credits. It was designed to be the credits. You got to put it somewhere.

[00:34:49] Again, I'm just kind of explaining how I felt about it. I'm not saying what's right. You're just coming up with random excuses. It's not an excuse. I think if it were at the start of the episode, like before the cold open- No, it wouldn't be there. It wouldn't be there. No one's saying to put it there. Let me finish my- You're making a straw man argument. We're becoming It's Got Star Trek. Let me finish my sentence. Hi, guys. If you put that at the beginning of the episode before the cold open, you lose a lot of people.

[00:35:18] If you put it after the cold open, it kind of sets a goofier tone for the episode than I think what the episode actually lands on. Again, I'm glad we have it. I liked watching it. I thought it was very cute. I was happy that I got to see it. I don't know where the right place to put it is in the episode. Over the credits. All right. Let's go. I didn't hear from Grayson. Hey, guys.

[00:35:45] It's Grayson coming to you live from the lobby of the Marriott Marquis. Yeah. I'm having Dragon Con. I'm sorry for the noise. I hope you can hear me. I'm standing very near a pink stormtrooper getting their picture taken with Wonder Woman, someone wearing a sorting hat, and the kid with the hat from One Piece, I think. There's also a couple dressed as Captain Picard and Princess Leia, who a lot of people are lining up for selfies with. Right now they're with three very buff dudes dressed as the Powerpuff Girls.

[00:36:15] There's a surprising lack of murder bot cosplay, which is a bummer because I really wanted to yell, secunit! Secunit! At someone, but not such a lot. Oh, yes. Okay. So the soap opera episode. That's why we're here. It was great. It actually almost kind of made me cry. It made me care very much about an episode that I did not care about much the first time or not. Also, the proctor for the Q slash Trelane character who shan't be named. So humanity on trial, Q Coded.

[00:36:45] Loved that character. Okay. I have to get in line for a $12 Bud Light served by a bartender dressed as Captain Planet. And there's a spot behind Master Chief from Halo and Sailor Moon, I think. I don't get a lot of the anime ones. All right, guys. Have a good one. Bye. I want to go to Comic-Con with Grayson someday. Come to Rose City, Grayson. And I... I mean, Coors Banquet was $3 at Star Trek Las Vegas.

[00:37:13] I mean, it's not a better beer, but it did not cost $12. And, like, Grayson, I want to take this opportunity to say, Master Chief has some of the best lines in all of video games, man. Like, giving the Covenant back their bomb. Like, that's just cool. But I'm interested and glad to hear that you kind of had a flip on this episode. Like, and I think that is ultimately what I experienced. I'm like, I don't need this until you get to the core of it. Because it caught me off guard.

[00:37:43] I was like, why are we doing an Uhura is Pike's daughter thing? Like, I don't understand this. And then you remember Juliet, like, kind of at the same moment that Pike brings her up. And I was like, okay, this I can get on board with. I think that this is what makes the episode work for me as much as it does, right? Because it's a universal truth, as was mentioned earlier.

[00:38:11] Like, mourning is not necessarily always I miss the things that I lost. Or, you know, the feelings weren't real or the feelings aren't here anymore. It's missing that future that could have been. And I think that is something that everyone can identify with, regardless of, you know, if you have siblings or children or if your parents are still with us, that kind of a thing. So they managed to land an episode that the entire time I'm feeling is rudderless.

[00:38:40] And I think that that is very impressive. And I think they did do a very good job of that. And I don't think I should be surprised. Because we know they do these funny, silly things. And then they always hit you with the emotional core in the final act. I mean, it's very similar to those old scientists, right? You're like, oh, what a fun thing. This is great. I'm laughing a lot. And then at the end, you're like, oh, no, I'm choking up because Boimler cares a lot about being in Starfleet.

[00:39:07] Like, it is a very good trick that they are able to pull off repeatedly. Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad they came back to Juliet of this pocket universe. If you missed my conversation, mine and John's conversation with the writers and director, like, I feel this is a spiritual sequel to The Inner Light. I think it makes The Inner Light better because we never got to see Picard do this. But you know he had to at some point. He had to kind of mourn his whole other life he lived, just like Pike did.

[00:39:38] I do want to ask you guys, do you find the end of this episode... Like, what are you feeling at the end of this episode? What emotion? Do you find it sad? I find it a little... I mean, it's sad for how he's feeling, but personally, I find it a little bit like I feel vindicated in how much I didn't feel the Battelle-Pike relationship because she gave him the worst fucking farewell gift ever.

[00:40:06] With the curse of another life and a family that he now gets to mourn, not just her, but a dead daughter that he never actually lived with, but feels that he did. So I was like, that's kind of a terrible breakup gift, Marie. You didn't do good on the way out. And I'm kind of in a similar space where I'm like, this I believe and it works. Like, the end of season three, I was like... I mean, you can go back and listen. I was very confused.

[00:40:36] I was like, why is this his story? And why is this Marie's story? And I understand, you know, mechanically it's her story because they needed her to not be on the show anymore. But like, to me, and again, I'll bring up Mbenga, that's an Mbenga story. And that's why I think this would have worked as Pike and Mbenga on a fishing trip, talking about their long lost daughters.

[00:40:58] But to me, this was so much more real, which is kind of insane because we got so much less with Juliet than we did with Battelle. But it's like, it's so well illustrated.

[00:41:15] And I think in retrospect, tying it into Uhura losing her parents is brilliant because it's like, well, now Pike has somebody that he can go to that understands kind of the idea of losing family, right? And missing that future with that family. So I think I'm in the same headspace as John. I will say, though, like the last thing I felt was like, okay, what about Cybok?

[00:41:44] Who knows about Cybok now? And Christine's brain thing. Like, that's hilarious. But like, what? Like, if everything was, you know, if they remember it all and pieces of the emotion were real, what does that mean? Like, does that mean Christine actually has like some deeper level neural scans that she doesn't tell people about or something? Like, I don't know.

[00:42:06] It just it's hard when the episode tells you don't worry about some of these things because they're contrived, but then gives you things that are so big that you're like, how much is contrived? Especially because they're illustrating truth. I mean, the brain scans are a plot thing. They were contrivance. They were not emotion. The emotion was what was true. But yeah, I mean, I'm kind of the opposite, John. In fact, in that. Well, I mean, so obviously it's a metaphor for grief. It's a metaphor for losing someone we love.

[00:42:36] And I think a lot of people in our discord talked about that. I came at it from a much more literal place, though, in that I kind of feel like it's almost a happy ending. It's I feel catharsis at the end because Juliet did not die on him. He died on her, which is what a parent should do. He grew old and he watched her grow up and become an adult and marry. And I forget if they had grandkids. We'll assume they had grandkids. He lived a long life. He experienced a full parent's life with his child.

[00:43:06] To me, and again, I know the metaphor for us is about grief because we can't experience pocket universes. But for me, it kind of felt like he was coming to accept that gift for what it was. He was accepting it as a reality. He was accepting, yes, this did happen to me. I did have a daughter. I don't have to forget about her. I don't have to bury her. And in a lot of ways, she's coming back to life for him because it felt like he did kind of bury her and try to forget about her and try to pretend that this thing that happened to him never existed. So that's how I saw the ending.

[00:43:36] And that's, I mean, I almost thought it was a happy ending in that way. I think it's probably intended to be more that. Well, I think that's the literal. It's actually, it's probably intended. Yeah. And it's probably intended to be both because, I mean, obviously it is the metaphor you talked about, but it is also them saying like, okay, he's good now. Like moving forward, we're not going to talk about the pocket life anymore. And now he can look forward to his next pocket universe life with the Delosians.

[00:44:04] And I don't know if the writing was intentional in this way, but a lot of people talked about maybe he wasn't being the best advice giver in some of the early episodes this season. And I'm not sure if that was intended. I didn't want to ask the writers like, hey, these lines you gave Pike, were they intentionally bad? So I didn't put it that way, but at least in my headcanon, like, yeah, the advice he gives La'an after she gets possessed and stabs Pike to like, hey, just get over it. Yeah. That was because he had not come to terms with all this.

[00:44:33] And now he is a better captain because of this. It does also make me wonder if there's some color in Valles Marineris, where when she says it gave you the word widower, we don't have a word in English for a parent who loses a child. Right? That's interesting. Is that as close as that translator could get?

[00:44:59] And is that the emotion we're seeing on his face of like, actually, he says in this episode, I let Marie go. Is that him realizing there's actually another layer to this and it's about Julia? I think so. I don't know. Not so sure. Let's head back. I think John's more obsessed than us. Let's go ahead and hear from the first of our German trio of callers this week. Let's hear from Katrine. Hey, OpenPiking.

[00:45:26] I have just watched the episode and it was so good. I was tearing up because it got me so much. It was so emotional. I would not have expected that at all. The beginning seemed rather a bit. I don't really know what word to use here. Not really ridiculous, but like so exaggerated.

[00:45:50] I don't really know American soap operas, but I thought that for an entire episode, maybe that will get a bit boring or I'm not sure. But when Pike met his daughter from the last episode of season three, tears were running out of my eyes and it totally got me.

[00:46:19] And also the end of that episode, it's just so great. I feel like this is the most emotional episode of that entire season so far. But maybe I'm just a sucker for family stories and parents, children, since I have children of myself. So maybe that's why it was really good. I loved it.

[00:46:48] I think that's a really good point about the family through line here because they do use family in every character's story. It's Benga seeing Starfleet as his family. And now he's thinking, OK, maybe I'm pulling away from this. Also, shout out to Space Madness. That's that's a good choice. I like that. Obviously reminds me of the Red and Stimpy episode Space Madness.

[00:47:11] And the line in Armageddon, he's got space dementia, which is and like the Red and Stimpy episode is a Star Trek pastiche. So like it's a nice full circle moment here. And then having, you know, Spock's family, his brother having that and who is family and Pike's family. It's a really good thing to point out.

[00:47:32] And I think, you know, to go back to what I was saying, that is why it works, because you don't have to have the specific exact experience that any of these characters is talking about. You just have to have a family and feelings about your family for it to land. And I think, again, it ultimately does land. But I think maybe the word you're looking for is silly. Like it's a little silly. And you guys know me. I'm not against silliness.

[00:47:59] But I think that that Cameron, you said something in the discord about repetition or maybe the bit has played out for some some people watching it. And I think that's where I was landing on my first watch, because it was just like, OK, we understand this is a soap opera. Please, please go forward. Yeah, there's a lot of deleted scenes we found out, like whole subplots with Ortegas.

[00:48:24] I mean, personally, I was kind of confused by her turn because she's very much introduced as the heavy and then immediately is like his best friend. And I was like, I feel like we missed a beat here. Oh, it turns out we missed a whole subplot with her is what we missed. And yeah, I could see. I don't know why it was cut. Everyone kept saying, oh, well, because it was a dense episode for time. We were trying to make 50 ish minute episodes. We wish we could make full length episodes. This is the shortest episode of the season. It's 45 minutes tops with the extra stuff at the end of the credits.

[00:48:50] Like so I don't I don't know if that was studio meddling, but I could also see like, yeah, I mean, the stuff with Pike is great, but maybe just the crew being a soap opera got a little ran its course. I don't know. I still want to see it, but well, and that always frustrates me because like, why do you have to be 50 minutes? Why do you have to be 48 minutes? Like it? Well, why? Because it's on streaming.

[00:49:17] You could make five two hour episodes if you wanted. Like there's I feel like there is no rule against that. It's just like studios are like we're going to do what we think works. I mean, I argue the audience's brains accept a certain type of story when they're going in to watch a quote unquote hour long drama versus the 30 minute sitcom versus an hour and a half to two hour movie versus a three hour epic. Like we're coming to expect something. I know.

[00:49:42] I remember season two has some long episodes and some of those I was like, we're running a little long in the tooth here, guys. And that was just like, I think there's like an hour and two minute episode or something where I was like, this, this feels a little long where it feels like we're tacking a lot of stuff on. So there's, I mean, pacing is a big thing, but it is. And they're way better. Cameron wants less Star Trek is what I'm hearing. They're way better at pacing now than they used to be. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I, I, I definitely don't think I would have watched this the same way before I had kids for sure. I think it affected me more.

[00:50:11] Um, I mean, I'm definitely someone who's like waiting for my kids to graduate so I can have my life back in a lot of ways. But at the same time, like my, my daughter just got her first period. My son went to Alaska with his grandparents for a month and I swear his voice is different when he got back. And there's a big part of me that is like those versions of my kids are gone. I have, you know, I, I can kind of relate to grieving that version of my kid.

[00:50:39] The, the ones who will cuddle me and watch a movie and everything, uh, is, is quickly disappearing. So there is a lot of that, as you were saying, you don't have to experience a pocket universe to, to feel the emotions, to feel the emotional truth. Well, if it makes you feel better, Cam, they'll come back to you in their thirties. Like my son will sit on my lap and watch lost with me in his thirties. Okay. As deodorant to invest.

[00:51:09] All right, let's go ahead and hear from our next caller. Here is Melanie. Hi guys. So this episode had me laughing, crying, laughing again, and then crying so much like no episode before. Not even 3.10 when I was literally crying to my pillow, but this. Wow. Wow. Wow. You know me. So of course I have to talk about Pike. But before I get there, everyone absolutely rocked this episode. I loved all of them, but my time is running out. So because people, the end.

[00:51:38] Seeing Chris, our beloved captain, finally break down and admit that there is this devastating loss he is grieving for, Juliet, that absolutely destroyed me. And knowing that this was difficult for Anson to film makes it even more powerful. It felt so authentic, so raw and so real. He played that moment beautifully. Honestly, give this man an Oscar, an Emmy or whatever, because he absolutely deserves it. The way he cried, the way he finally allowed himself to feel it. Wow. Wow.

[00:52:07] But do we really need the soap of our genre in drag? If you think about it, maybe it makes sense. These people are part of a kind of military organization. They live in space, surrounded by darkness, danger, death, and disease. They have to be strong. They have a crew depending on them. They can't constantly show that they're vulnerable, anxious, grieving, or afraid. And for Pike, that makes even more sense. We know how much he carries. He knows his future. He carries the weight of command and everything that comes with it. Wow. Wow.

[00:52:36] That episode was heartbreaking and absolutely beautiful. Live long, prosper, Melanie. Well, Melanie, you can rest easy because Anson Mount has been given the TV line performer of the week, which is, I guess, a website that analyzes television acting performances. Point being, a lot of people agree with you. He absolutely crushed this episode. There is no doubt about that. I think the interesting thing is that for somebody who loved it so much,

[00:53:05] which, of course, you're correct. We did expect. I think that this is, for me, kind of the healing salve for episodes that don't land 100% with me, is knowing that there is somebody out there who loves this episode unconditionally. Every part of it worked for them. I'm like, that's what I love about Star Trek is that you have all these different opinions. And I love that about our show that I get to hear them all. And it helps me to consider how I was feeling going into it.

[00:53:34] I will say, Juliet was the other name that my wife and I considered giving our daughter before we landed on the name that we did pick. So I did have, as soon as he said that name, I went, oh, I know who this is. And that is when the episode really kicked into gear for me. Um, that's absolutely a coincidence, but like it's, it's coincidences work in a big way.

[00:54:01] Sometimes there's a small moment at the end where Pike's just trying to get comfortable in this chair before opening up to Dr. Chabers that I really love. Yes. Small beat. Yeah. And I love his shoes in that scene. They're, they're like straight up footlocker sneakers. Like, I mean, one, one, uh, issue I had a little bit with this episode is it's a lot like with, uh, uh, human best friend where we open that episode with a question. The character asked the question, why am I not affected both episodes? Why am I not affected?

[00:54:30] And I feel like when that question is asked so blatantly, you need an equitable answer. And neither one really gave us the answer to why we, we heard that, I guess it was because Ortegas was angry. And we've kind of discussed why that also didn't make sense here. The answer does make sense, but they never say it in the episode, which is that just Pike's emotions were so locked off. Even accused powers could not pull them from him. Um, which I was like, nah, okay. If we're going to do that, at least have like Dr.

[00:54:56] We should have had a scene right at the end of the soap opera section where he does finally break down and start to say it. And then we get back into the real world. Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been nice. I mean, I do like that Pike's emotions are so powerful. They break Trillane's powers both ways. Because one by like protecting him, quote unquote, protecting him from the powers. And then at the end, like it shatters the reality and we shift once he does feel those emotions. But. And it alters the created reality. Yeah.

[00:55:26] Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, it's, it is, I mean, it is very interesting and I, I kind of took it as like the reason he's not affected at the start is because Trillane is doing the experiment. And he's trying to, you know, on him and he's trying to say like, you have to, you have to lean into this. But you're right that it's not necessarily explicit. Right. I mean, I did, there was a point where I was like, with Trillane's talking about studying human life forms or art forms. And I was like, is he responsible for all these genres?

[00:55:53] Like that would have been an interesting thing to do with the season of like all genre swings. And then the final episode would be like, it was Q all along. Okay. But I will say, I'm really glad that that is not the case as far as I know, because I haven't seen the last episode, but you'd have to pull it off just right. But I still in my head, Canon, the puppet episode is because Spock is unconscious this whole episode. Like he's not getting, he's not feeling any emotions. So, and I think it's because Q gave him that with the puppets already.

[00:56:23] This is Spock's second unconscious for the entire episode episode of this season. All right. Let's hear from our final German caller. Here is Mishi. Hi guys. It's Mishi. The episodes are getting better and better. I love this one so much. I think the soap opera style was so great, especially at the beginning when Pike woke up. Simply brilliant. His reactions to it was so funny.

[00:56:52] Anson was phenomenal in this episode, ranging from being completely irritated, annoyed and impatient, leading to his breakdown in the end. I really felt with him throughout the entire episode. I also liked that everyone kept their memories, so the events actually meant something in the end. Pike finally started to process his loss instead of just suppressing it.

[00:57:15] I also appreciated that he invited Uhura to cook at the end, so the situation wouldn't become awkward for her. And it shows that he really cared for his crew and their feelings. In my opinion, it was a perfect character episode. And I also liked Trillane being back, messing with everyone for a school project. I can't really blame him. I would have chosen Enterprise for a school project, too.

[00:57:39] And I really wonder what's going on in La'Anne's head that she's imagining Spock's brother and Tidal in their pants. That's it for me. Have a great day. Bye. I'm very glad you brought up La'Anne. Yeah, let's talk about them for a bit. We have not talked to La'Anne in a criminally negligent manner. Because that's definitely the B-plot of this episode, for sure. And I enjoyed it, but I also have questions, so I'm going to come to you guys for those answers, hopefully. But I do want to talk about one quick thing, because I just, like, it took me three watches to catch it.

[00:58:08] When we first come to La'Anne, we see her, and she says, Oh, good, you're up. And then it pans over. Does Cyborg just sitting up, tied up on a box? Like, was he unconscious, sitting straight up the whole time? Like, that just felt classic soap opera to me. Yes. And very Vulcan. And, like, the way she knows he's up is because he went, ugh. Yeah. But yeah, so what is going on with them? Or at least, presumably this is all about La'Anne, because they're just pulling Cyborg from Spock's subconscious.

[00:58:37] Like, what is La'Anne dealing with here? So I think it comes down to her last scene with real Spock. Walk me through it, because I'm a little confused. She does say, I don't regret our breakup. Seems pretty obvious, La'Anne. That's your bland out. Well, and, like, here's setting boundaries, right? Like, we're not gonna hook up right now. But, and then she steps closer to him and says, I don't think I realized how much I would miss you. What is she saying?

[00:59:06] So that's, is that her saying, maybe we are gonna hook up right now? That's what I don't know. And then Spock, like any guy. And then Spock says, no, we're actually not gonna hook up right now. That's not even what he says. And she takes a full step back. That's what she thinks he says. But what he says is like, uh, you told me we were broken up. He says, I thought our goal was to remain friends. Right. Right. And then she takes that full step back.

[00:59:32] And I don't know, like, is this her saying, the way that I read it on my second watch, right? Because on the first watch, I was like, you can't, they're broken up. Stop this. Right. You don't have to put them back together and break them up and put them back together. Like, I was upset. Yeah. But on my second watch, I read this as, La'Anne is just really lonely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:59:54] Like, and she didn't realize how much the connection with Spock was tethering her to the Enterprise. Right? Like, she really has no one that's close to her. Mm-hmm. And that's been illustrated more than once this season. Because like, and kind of with her whole arc, right? Like, she finally decides, all right, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to tell Kirk that I like him. And he's like, I have a secret child. Sorry. Like, I got to, there's a thing I got to do.

[01:00:23] Um, so I read it the second time as La'Anne realizing that she's very lonely and thinking to herself, maybe at the time breaking up was the right thing to do. But in the long run, maybe it wasn't. Mm-hmm. What if there is still something here? And then Spock saying the thing about being friends, she was like, you're right. It's not fair of me to come back here and say like, what if we gave it another shot?

[01:00:50] Because I was the one who broke this off with you and we agreed that it was logical. I don't want to go back on that. And I don't want to lose you as a friend. So I'm going to take this physical step back so that I can at least have you as a friend. I think it is just her being incredibly lonely. But then she says goodbye, Spock. Like, they're not even going to be friends. I'm formulating something here right now because I'm thinking what I'm thinking is like, they're even in this scene, they're having a problem communicating because she is saying,

[01:01:17] I don't regret, but, and he's saying, well, I thought we agreed to this. And she's saying, oh, nevermind. I guess you're telling me no. And I'm like, was he telling her no? So I think this is maybe juxtaposition to the soap opera where they say their feelings out loud, where they are blatantly honest. And now we're back to the real world and they're back to not saying what they're feeling. And because of that, they're maybe not getting what they both want. I think you're right.

[01:01:43] And I would also kind of assume that this is the beginning of them writing La'an out of the show. Like we know that La'an isn't there when Kirk becomes the captain. She doesn't really get mentioned by anyone. So I think this is her saying, I may need to be in a different place physically to be able to allow myself the kind of connections that I so deeply want.

[01:02:11] And they may use this as a way to get her onto a different ship or into a different job. She's going to start microwaving fish in the mess hall. She's going to start doing all kinds of distancing behaviors. So, John, what do you think Cybok represents to her then? Because I was struggling with that. I was like, is he representing Spock? And so her desire for Cybok represents her desire for Spock? Or is he representing the opposite of Spock and her desire for something else?

[01:02:37] I think he's representing the side of Spock that she always wanted to be able to see. I don't feel like La'an has ever wanted to change who Spock is. But at the same time, there's that inherent curiosity of all this person keeps all their emotions in check or tries not to feel emotion. What would they be like as an entirely emotional creature? And I think that's what it is. I have never thought that this is Cybok.

[01:03:07] Cybok is not in this episode. This is a subconscious of both. Well, Bill said he wrote him as Cybok. Yeah. I mean, he wrote him as Cybok, yes. But used the character to be... To represent something else. To represent something else. But yeah. It's a conscious desire of both their parts. Because we know... I mean, Griffin Incident set up the love triangle. We know she still has feelings for Kirk. Does Cybok represent Kirk in some ways? Does he represent the emotional yin to Spock's logical yang?

[01:03:38] Well, as John was saying, I think this is the version of Spock that she knows is there. But that she doesn't necessarily get to engage with or be in the relationship with. Because she knows... Cybok is the extreme version of what all Vulcans are. Right? Like, they all have very strong emotions. This is just a Vulcan who chooses not to hide those or pretend they're not there and, you know, doesn't drive themselves relentlessly toward logic.

[01:04:06] So I think, to John's point, this is La'an asking, to borrow a phrase from La'an, how would that feel? Yeah. This is her saying, if Spock were a little more emotional or were more open with how he feels about things, how would that feel? Because, I mean, she clearly has feelings for Cybok. Like, this version of Cybok. Apparently, there's a deleted scene with a mind-melded sex scene between them that I'm like, why was that not in there? I did...

[01:04:35] And then there must be another scene, too, because I don't know why Cybok turns. Like, why does he decide to save Spock? Because it's just missing a beat. I know it's not Cybok's story, but you focus it on La'an. And there needs to be a beat where he's like, he wants to be with her. And she says, no, because my heart belongs to the good Spock. And he goes, fine, I want to be good, too. Look what I can do. Well, it does make me wonder if the needs of the many philosophy just permeates all Vulcan culture.

[01:05:04] Like, because he may be seeing in that moment, like, oh, I could save Spock and this person's feelings for Spock. Well, he's doing it because he wants to hook up with her. And he's like, look, if this is what it takes to bed you. And also, it's not a transplant. Like, it's just going to clone a heart. They're just cloning his heart. I do love that. Like, so it's just cloning his heart. Like, why is this procedure so dangerous? In Star Trek, this should be the easiest thing. Because it is a soap opera.

[01:05:34] Right. I think that's the most fun part of the soap opera. Like, as a conceit for the episode is the whole surgery and all that. Like, you could just do this with a transporter, man. Well, I love that you see the heart where it should be on a Vulcan in the x-ray. Yeah. But I especially love when Spock gestures to his heart and gestures to the middle. It's my heart. And he points to the middle of his chest. Yeah. Right.

[01:05:58] I think, again, like I said, I think this episode is going to get examined many, many, many times over the next couple of decades. You know, there could be a lot of layers read into who and what Cybok is supposed to represent. Not just for La'an, but for the audience. And honestly, partially, in my opinion, for society today as it is when it comes to relationships and stuff like that. So, I don't think the writers were going that deep.

[01:06:26] But I think it will be examined and studied as such over time. I mean, you could say that about all of Star Trek, really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we do have to ask, because we have asked, what is Spock's deal with feet? Is there a reason La'an and Cybok are both just fully tight black leather outfits? Yes, there's a reason. Whose subconscious is that coming from? Why is she in that cargo room? Like, I love that ship. It looks so cool. The ship is awesome. Yeah.

[01:06:56] I know. I want the whole subplot of the prison break. Give me that. Yes. I know. I was like, what was the body count of that prison break? Also, I've got 16 other hearts if you need to use them. I don't know. I just brought them. You never know. For Cybok to be really impressed with the prison break, like, I would like to see that. Yeah. A hundred percent. All right. Now, we've got a handful of the calls here. Let's see if we get to. Here is Platy. Hey there, open pike knight. It's Platy M3 calling in with a super heartfelt family message this week.

[01:07:26] Gosh, this episode, my childhood was spent coming home and watching an episode or two of TV while my mother cooked every night. And the whole first half of the 80s, that meant it was always an episode of TOS. My mother was a huge fan of Kirk. My dad's sister lived next to Leonard Nimoy's daughter. They were BFFs. The whole extended family was just Trek fan. Then in the mid 80s, we got one of those new fancy VCR things and learned how to program it. This meant my mom could watch Days of Our Lives every evening during dinner prep.

[01:07:54] And we did for the next 10 years before until I went to college. Now, this was fitting because she always blamed baby me for falling asleep in her arms during the new news before there was the invention of the TV remote. Um, that's why NBC stayed on and she got hooked on Days in the first place. So I don't know if it's possible to watch enough Star Trek in my life to surpass the literal thousands of Days of Our Lives episodes I've passively seen. Um, heck, when my wife and I were picking baby names for our first born, number one on my list was a family name from Days of Our Lives that we eventually went with.

[01:08:22] Speaking of my kids, mine even recognized Deidre Hall this week on the show as multiple times over the past decade. They've been caught up in the, uh, devil inhabiting her character on Days, um, as a grandma sat and watched the show while we hung out each summer. Now, Days of Our Lives is not a show where we're going to sit down as a family and watch these days, but it's been a huge part of my family's history ever since baby little me got my mom hooked. So, meaningful crossover to see these awesome shows come together. Platyum 3, signing off.

[01:08:50] Really cool that Trillane's powers are such that they can even transcend the hits, shits, and misses second. Wow. Platyum 3, just calling in with the raw emotion, man. I love that. And, and I, I think you're right. Like, this episode means so much to so many people. And that, again, I'm not mad at that fact. It just surprised me. I was like, people are going to hate this.

[01:09:17] No one's going to, and I'm sure that the New Trek haters are just vitriolic about this episode, I'm sure. But like, this episode has jumped into the top 10 on Paramount+. This is the first episode to do that this season. I wonder if it might bring in some new viewers, honestly. I mean, just going back to, does it have to be soap opera? Again, it doesn't have to be, but it was designed to be a cheap episode. They needed a cheap episode.

[01:09:44] And they were like, well, we could put some characters in one of our locations and have them talk, or we could do a soap opera. Yeah. I'm fine with this. Bringing a soap opera star. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I will say very cryptically, yes, it is a good thing that they saved budget with this episode. All right. Let's, we had one other write-in. Um, our friend Izzy says, uh, it's Izzy.

[01:10:13] I'm writing in this week because I just moved into college and I don't want my roommates to think I'm a nerd. Um, just from my dorm room days, Izzy, don't worry. You'll get over that pretty quick and, uh, you'll, you'll make them help you record these. Uh, I low-key kind of hated this episode when I first watched it, but then I went on a very long car ride, watched it five times. And now I love it. Pike is hilarious. I love his reaction to Uhura telling him she's a daughter and his storyline with Juliet was pretty sweet.

[01:10:41] I guess Starfleet counselors never just wear regular uniforms. I don't know why counselor Chivers needs a floor length coat, but I support it nonetheless. Yeah. Well, at least she's not wearing a Deanna Troy outfit. At least they gave her an entire coat to wear. That's, that was progress. I mean, just the swing in Pike's character from beginning to end over 45 minutes is an impressive feat. I cannot be angry at this episode.

[01:11:09] Like I get, I'm just remembering his reactions to Uhura. It's so funny. And then it's so heartbreaking. So is Pike the audience proxy here? Cause like, that's how I was. I'm like, what is this? What are they doing? And at the end I'm like, oh no, I care about this. He's the one asking, is this a musical? Why am I hearing music? What are you all looking at? Yeah. I do. I do. Do they have soap operas in the 20th century? Like I didn't figure out the body cleaning theater line.

[01:11:38] I was like processing it when Pike figured it out. And I was like, how would he know? He, I mean, I guess he likes old TV, but he does like old TV. Yeah. Okay. They must have. If something's going to, yeah. If something's going to survive world war three, you got how many tens of thousands of soap opera episodes? Like just by percentages, you're going to have a bunch of soap opera. Deidre Hall's frozen head is still in days of our lives and that. Exactly. Okay. John, this means Captain Pike may have watched the venture. Oh, he absolutely watched the venture brothers.

[01:12:08] I'm so happy now. You're right. Okay. Best episode of the season. But I do. I will say, Izzy, talk about dedication. Your first reaction was do not like this. So you watched it five more times. Like that. That is beautiful. It's an easy watch. I appreciate your dedication. It is an easy watch. I will say of this entire season, it might be the easiest episode to watch.

[01:12:33] Maybe because it is supposed to be kind of second screen ish, but I don't watch with a second screen. And man, it just, you drop. Yes. You drop right into the middle of the action and it just moves and goes. And it's, I, I do think I'm now, I'm, I'm never going to come claim that I think this is the best episode of strange new worlds or my favorite, but I do think this episode will have a lot more lasting power than some others. Let's go ahead and hear from Zoe.

[01:13:04] Open Pike night. This is the USS cinema. Zoe Richardson, captain commanding, also host of Backlick cinema, the podcast. So there were so many things that I cannot expect from open Pike night. I cannot expect the themes that they are going to be using. I cannot expect the type of episodes that we're going to have. So it was really unexpected to have a soap opera episode. It's not my favorite genre. And because of that, I kind of struggled to get through this.

[01:13:32] But at the same time, what I truly loved about this episode is that the captain, Christopher Pike, also struggled to get through this episode because everybody was, experiencing the soap opera except him. And he couldn't understand why. And I absolutely loved this episode because of that. That being said, I love the reintroduction of the higher plane, extra dimensional being that was behind it all.

[01:13:57] And I really loved it when that same being said, like chronitons through the hourglass. These are the days of the enterprise or something like that. Also, he said, cue credits. And it's almost like they're screaming at us that these are indeed the cue. Also, Electra Woman is in this episode. And I was fanning out all over that. Although I think I found out about it earlier. But I was just excited to see Electra Woman, Deitre Hall, once again.

[01:14:27] It was a great way to explore emotional trauma. That was great. Richardson out. I do like there's a point early on when Mbenga tells Pike that he's got to go see Counselor. And he goes off. And I was like, people are going to complain about this. People are going to complain that Pike's not trying to solve the mystery. That he's just going along with it. And in my brain, I'm like, yeah, but he probably at this point knows that the only way is through. And then a scene later, he says those lines. I'm like, yes, I'm there with Pike. I'm, again, audience avatar.

[01:14:56] I think it's also good to show that he's not resistant to the idea of therapy. That's true. Like, it's like he may not be going, but he knows he probably should. And you don't get the sense that it's like toxic masculinity is the reason he's not going. It's his own personal hangups. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he knows it's not going to kill him. He's like, whatever's going on is not perilous to me, at least, if not the entire crew.

[01:15:26] So, yeah. Yeah. And I do think, so for Mbenga in this episode, I think he's the closest to the regular character. Like, he's not that far off of actual Mbenga. The space madness and like maybe the lack of confidence, you know, coming from that is the wildest swing for him. But like, the intensity that he always has is still there.

[01:15:52] And like the desire to do the right thing and to help and to be a healer, like that is still there. And I think it's really well drawn. And I, I'll go back to it. I think that's why he's maybe the most complex character in Star Trek, because it's like you can't get away from who he is, even in an episode designed to heighten all of those things. Well, I was confused by his arc too. I mean, there's a beat at the end where Pike's saying like the emotions were real and everyone's left with the lasting impacts.

[01:16:22] And I was like, what lasting impacts? Like whose emotion was real? Laon, again, B plot for sure. Something going on. Something's going on with Mbenga in the C plot. We'll get back to that. But like, Chapel just kind of seems, she's not dealing with anything. Ortegas isn't dealing with anything. Una's not dealing with anything. Like what, what lasting impacts are they dealing with? Maybe a Hura, I guess. But let's stick with Mbenga. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, let's stick with Mbenga. Let's stick with Mbenga. Yeah. I mean, his, his line is, it's not just the space madness.

[01:16:50] I have personally felt I've lost my connection to Starfleet. What, what does that mean? Because obviously, as you were saying, like, he's not losing his skills, a doctor. He's not losing his confidence. Those aren't things he's dealing with in real life. Maybe he's lost this connection to Starfleet. Yes, we could easily give half a dozen examples of reasons he might be losing his connection to Starfleet. But we, the audience, have not been given one.

[01:17:14] We have a very specific reason why La'Anne feels she's a monster because of what happened in Four and a Half Vulcans and then punching a dinosaur. We've been given, I don't necessarily buy those examples, but at least we've been given them. I, I have been a little confused by Mbenga's arc that we have suddenly started getting into the season. What do you guys feel about that? I think this is the start of that arc for him. Well, it would be last episode with him wanting to leave the ship.

[01:17:40] Well, I, I think that's more of like, and that's my point. Like, this is still part of that. And this is him kind of acknowledging that that was part of what happened in the last episode. And I don't necessarily think to your point that we've seen why, but I think that we will see why. And I'm not using future episode knowledge on that. I'm just saying, I think that they're planting these seeds over these two episodes and that we will get more of it going forward. I just feel it would have been more impactful here if we had known why.

[01:18:10] Well, and to your point about the device. Yeah. This is their device to say like, yeah, he's not going to be the CMO when Kirk gets right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I feel like he is, his is breadcrumbs being laid out. Uhura's is putting a bow on the, on the storyline of the loss of no. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The loss of her parents. Right. On, we're in the middle of like, these are, we're at three different points.

[01:18:37] Pike is outside these, but each of these three different plot lines are at different points in those plot line. We're finishing Uhura's, which is part of why I feel like she's the least there in the soap opera. I mean, she like literally stopped, like she and drivers stop and wait for Pike to say the right line. Right. Before they reanimate and start performing. Well, they stop while Trelena's there, right? That's when they're stopped. Oh, but you're right. When he's trying to leave and they repeat over and over. Yeah.

[01:19:06] Which I did like that. Yeah. I also really liked they cut with, uh, Cybok saying, let it burn. And then when they come back, it's a different reading of the same line. I was like, that's, that's a good use of, of this pastiche. Yeah. The snaps, I think it's the first zoom too, but the snaps into him when she says Cybok, I'm like, it nails this tone. I am here for this ride. Like that's the moment that hooked me. And, and Mbenga and chapel just staring at Pike as he gets off the table and the opening,

[01:19:35] just waiting for him to walk out of the room. I do love like, not even like, was he looking at me? Like was Spock here the whole time lying there? But like chapel too, just kind of walks out of nowhere. It's like, was she just standing there the whole time? Okay. Uh, but like there, her of it all, there is another beat earlier on when, because it's an important moment when Pike goes, that was real anger. She showed where we're kind of showing, Oh, the cracks are coming through. The problem is like that line reading was not, that was a total soap opera line reading. I, I didn't feel a real anger. So I, I was not feeling the audience avatar in that moment.

[01:20:05] I felt like that could have been stronger. I didn't feel the anger, but I trust Pike's read of her because he, because he knows her well. Um, so here's a question. Obviously I am not going to ever say, don't put Ortegas in this scene. Don't have Ortegas being the one to do this. Would it maybe have made more sense if Christine was telling Mbenga like, Hey, you still have people here. You have me here.

[01:20:31] Don't worry about your skills because to your point, Cam, what was the impact for Christine? Like she was just mad scientist. Like, it sounds like there was a whole subplot with the brains. I was like, Oh God, I wish I could have seen that. Yeah. I kind of feel like we got that last episode though. It would just be the same thing reiterated. Honestly, I think they just needed something for Una to do. And to that point, like, and I didn't catch this at all until people in the discord pointed it out. And then on my third watch I was looking for it and I was like, you guys are crazy.

[01:21:00] Oh, there is something between Una and Mbenga in this scene. Yes, there is. So that's interesting. I wonder if that's some emotional truth that will come back or if that was just for the soap opera. Una just has a magnetism that people who commit war crimes cannot resist. Like between Mbenga and Kor in episode six. It's like you meet Una, you're like, okay, this is a person I need to know.

[01:21:27] You have to ask yourself then, what does that say about Doug? All right, let's go ahead and hear from Lucy. Lieutenant Lucy reporting. This episode had me laughing out loud and crying. And with each day it stayed with me and hit me more and more as I realized the extent to which it deals with loss, grief, my own avoidance behaviors. But also the role of friendship and community in our lives and the role that light entertainment itself can play in helping us heal.

[01:21:57] I love the humor. I love Pike's lines around what is the about reference to the musical. What's with all the dramatic pauses? The Boimler-esque computer is this a simulation. The clear fun Ethan Peck and Chrissy Chung were having particularly. But also the point where with the door sequence where Pike, Uhura and Chivas are hearing the lines for the third time and Pike mimics them. And clearly I think the cast were cracking up at that stage.

[01:22:27] I also love the fact that here we're exploring and reusing language from, among other things, A Quality of Mercy, where Pike leaves the room suddenly and Una says, you don't have to face this alone. Similarly with Among the Lotus Seaters with Juliet's line, we forget the details, but we don't forget the emotions. I love the groundwork too that it's laying for Pike's future on Talos IV, Star Trek V and the role of the Q continuum.

[01:22:57] Benedetta Croft, as always, standout marks. But here, top marks go to Anson Mount for his humor and dramatic work. Lovely. Love this episode. I'm really glad that you brought up this part about avoidance because I think you can read Pike as annoyed, right? Obviously at the start of this episode, he's like, come on. But I think that's also true to life because it's like, when you do have something that

[01:23:22] you are not dealing with, it can make you irritable and you can snap at people kind of through no fault of their own. Like they just asked a question you weren't ready to hear or they made a joke you didn't want to hear or, you know, they poked you in a way that you weren't ready for that you're normally fine with and it can set you off. So I think avoidance is absolutely the correct word to use for Pike's behavior at the beginning of this episode.

[01:23:49] And I don't know if it's surprising, but as we talk more about the episode, guys, I kind of like it more. I was about to say the same thing. I'm making more connections now about why soap opera, because not only is it about speaking the truth out and not having subtext, which we see in, you know, speaking your pain out, sharing your pain. They're also about secrets. There's always a number of characters who have secrets and who has secrets in this ship, but Mbango. Yeah.

[01:24:16] I just I struggled with the Mbango plotline and I wanted to love it so much. And I'm I just I don't think they built it up enough this season because obviously this character has secrets. Obviously, this character, though he is a good friend of people and has great wisdom to give hides his own pain just as much as Pike and hides his own his own BS until people confront him on it. And so I just kind of wish this season they would have brought a little more of that up because he's kind of just been there until off hour.

[01:24:43] He's kind of just been the guy giving good advice to everybody this season. And I think if they would have dealt a bit more with the secrets and how he is hiding them and how he does need to turn to his friends, his subplot in this episode could have hit me not as hard as Pike's, of course, but like more so. Well, I think what they're saying is he's much tougher than Pike. I mean, the show's about him, right? Yeah. He got cut in half last episode and he's performing surgery this episode. He's tougher than Pike. He's fine. He's good.

[01:25:12] He's fine. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from K. Sera Sera. So what did I think of like chronitons through the hourglass? To quote Spock, it was by nature contrived and a hell of a lot of fun.

[01:25:30] The gauzy lighting, the gauzy lighting, the bathos of it all was delightful for someone like me who spent her preschool years watching Young and the Restless and other CBS soaps while other kids might have been watching Sesame Street. And damn it, strange new world. Stop making me cry. I didn't need she who plays Marlena on days.

[01:25:53] Speaking of the pain of losing not only a special person, but also the pain of losing the future one had hoped to have with that special person. But hey, therapy can work, folks. Follow Pike's lead. Get some therapy. It can work. Take care of yourselves, everyone. Are we supposed to get therapy? I mean, follow up. Is she saying? Do you have a referral? No, but I think that's totally fair.

[01:26:23] And actually, it's a great opportunity to bring up this week's sponsor, which is BetterHelp. You know, it can be really hard. Stop that. Stop it. It drives me crazy. Like, I believe in therapy. I think it is good. It just drives me crazy to hear it commodified in that way. Like, on a lot of the podcasts I listen to have BetterHelp ads, and I'm like, come on, can I just watch this thing about silly graphic designers?

[01:26:47] Or can I just watch this funny reenactment of the designing of the first three generations of Pokemon games? Yeah. It's very specific. Well, this is what's on my YouTube algorithm, okay? It's not better. It is not better. Like, I've done online counseling with somebody who I had done in-person counseling with, and then there was a pandemic. And we made that work just starting from scratch online. I don't- Yeah. It pisses me off, too. Anyway, back to this.

[01:27:14] Well, and it is, to the point, it is a commodification of a thing that actually matters. And I think, you know, periodically we'll state our opinions outright here on Open Pike Night, and because it's a soap opera episode, maybe now's the time to do that. Yes, therapy is good. We believe in therapy. We think people should try therapy. Yeah, it can. All right. And I think it will really help. I mean, is better help better than no therapy? That's my thing.

[01:27:43] Like, everyone's always like, go get therapy. I'm like, okay, great. How? Like, where? Everyone you talk, oh, a year-long wait? Okay, great. Oh, and then I'm paying out the notes? Okay, great. Like, yeah. And that's the other, you know, problem with the world we live in. And it's like, most people are going to pay for therapy through their place of employment. And it's like, that should not be this way. Like, there are so many things that should not be how they are. That's what my number one stressor in life is, typically. Yeah, like, exactly.

[01:28:13] So it is a fraught subject. It is very complicated. This is not the place to get into it, obviously, because we're not experts or anything like that. But, like, I do think it's cool to have this message in this episode of this TV show, right? Like, it's cool for them to outright say, like, this is what is needed sometimes. And TNG had a therapist on the bridge and pretty infrequently made use of hers.

[01:28:43] Like, when they did, it was like a big deal. Like, oh, she's actually doing her job. Maybe once a season. Not even that. But to Michelle's point. Oh, and we can build whole plot lines out of this. Michelle sent the clip from the commentary from Generations that she was referring to. And I listened to it. And, you know, at first they're talking about, like, yeah, we didn't really know what to do with an empath. I'm like, well, that makes sense. Yeah, that could be a writing challenge. And then they start saying how, like, yeah, I think having a therapist on board is going to be the most dated thing about TNG. Because no one's going to need therapy in the future. And I was like, what are you guys talking about?

[01:29:13] And then they're saying, like, Picard should never have cried in Generations. I'm like, yeah, it's pretty rough what people thought in the 90s. It's crazy because it's like they had the, oh, no one will be concerned with appearance. No one will worry that Picard is bald in the future. But also they won't need therapy. Well, they're like, what do they? Shouldn't stigma around all things have been eliminated? Because they're like, yeah, there's no food. There's everyone gets to do what they want. There's no money. What are people worried about? What do people do therapy about?

[01:29:42] Like, dudes, you wrote the show. Like, Picard is like gets taken over and murders a bunch of his friends. Of course, people need therapy in space. Have you seen the stuff that happens in your show that you write? Well, and when you if you take away people's daily struggles, it's going to leave a void where they're like, what do I do now? Like, if I don't have to worry about feeding myself, I don't have to worry about paying rent. I don't have to worry about this, that and the other thing. That's going to leave an open space where they're like, what do I even do that?

[01:30:12] Surviving is therapy for some people. And yeah. And the thing is, media has done more harm for people actually believing in the efficacy of therapy. Like, yeah, Star Trek's not great about it. I would say The Sopranos probably has a lot to answer for, for how society looks at therapy. But like, the scene at the end of fill in episode title here when Geordi gets brainwashed. Mm hmm.

[01:30:39] And then remember, you know, like where he's just sitting in therapy and he's just confused and kind of sitting silently stunned. I'm like, that is probably one of the most realistic Star Trek depictions of therapy at the beginning. It's like, I don't even I don't know what I'm saying or even doing here. What's going on? Mm hmm. Well, and you could argue like the Cyborg character is the personification of this. Like this, this is the guy who's like, hey, you should be feeling your feelings. Yeah. You should really examine why you feel those.

[01:31:08] You should revel in those feelings. And it's interesting that Kirk is the one to kind of understand that more than everyone else. He's like, I need this pain. Right. I'm not saying it's healthy for me to carry this around, but I am telling you, I have to have this to do what I do. They're kind of saying the same thing in different ways. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So it's I mean. All right. Fine. It's a great episode. It's a great episode.

[01:31:37] Hey, hey, open pike Abby summer from the first flight podcast. First of all, I'll admit I had a days of our lives phase in middle and high school with my sister. We watched obsessively when Marlena Deidre Hall's character was possessed. And so this to watch her loves the genre swing, loved the heart and the character development and the relationships getting pushed and some of the snort laughs I had in there. But going to leave that for all of you. Here's what I have to talk about.

[01:32:04] First of all, whoever's doing her as makeup this season, chef's kiss. It's perfect. And all the nail polish and all the women, especially Una from season one has been perfection. But this year we've got some more metallic shades that I'm really loving. Also, Dr. Chiver's coat is an homage to both Beverly and Deanna. Absolutely love it. Loved the Q Proctor robes. Loved Trillane's coat still. And even Juliette's little jumper outfit. It was perfect.

[01:32:31] It was young child who's just coming into adulthood and was perfect for that scene with them. Also, did you see the two people behind Erica and Mbengo after they send Una away to the fake emergency in the bar? Those costumes were impeccable. I also want to point out at the end when they're all drinking together, the garnishes on those drinks. Look at them closely. They'll definitely give you a smile. I could keep going. I really liked this episode.

[01:32:58] I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it worked for me. Hope it worked for all of you. We'll talk soon. Cameron, there's a straight up exorcist scene with Marlena's character in Days of Our Lives. Maybe you really should watch it. I think maybe mid-season we should just cover this whole subplot of Days of Our Lives. Okay, but how long is this arc? Is it 700 episodes? Wasn't it like the length X-Files was on? No, I think it crosses season boundaries.

[01:33:27] I think it's like 100 episodes. Someone earlier said something like, yeah, 93 through 97. Jesus. That's over 1,000 episodes. We should cover at least one episode. But here's the thing. We'll never run out of episodes of that. We're always like, well, which episode of Star Trek do we cover between seasons? Well, you don't run into that problem with Days of Our Lives. Okay, so let's talk about costumes here for a moment.

[01:33:53] The Q robes, definitely the Humanity on Trial Q robes, right? Very. But the hat is, am I to understand that Guinan's hat is kind of her way of making fun of the Q at all times. Like, oh, you people love your giant hats. What if I put one on? I mean, the whole first half of this episode, I'm like, are we making a connection with Guinan? What's going on here? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:34:22] But I feel like... That's why they hate each other. That's why they have a rivalry. That's a whole hat rivalry. It's a hat thing, yeah. You can kind of see that that actor is like, how much can I move my face side to side without destroying this hat? Not much. Which I like. I like the ostentatious space character costume design, yeah. And yeah, did really, really well. I think that and then Trelane's moment of like, oh, I totally scored.

[01:34:51] I passed my test. That was pretty funny. B minus. That was really well done. Yeah. What do you call the Trelane who gets a D on the final? Q. No, not that Q. The other Q. The other Q. The one where there was the Q, yeah. All right. Let's hear from our final caller. Here is Starship. Hello, Open Pike Knight. I was surprised how much I loved this episode. This might be my top three of the season so far.

[01:35:17] I really was impressed with how well they balanced their over-the-top soap stuff with the real genuine emotions. The Pike and Juliet stuff, that was a great callback. Because I've always thought the inner light was a horrifying concept that the next generation didn't deal with right. So I'm glad we've kind of rectified that here. Did I see some Una and Mbenga shipping stuff? What was going on there with the, I'll miss you, not just because you're the best doctor I ever worked with.

[01:35:46] And then holding his hands? What's going on there? What's going on? Little love connection there? And the La'on and Cybok stuff was so funny and so sexy and so perfect. And that's what I was missing from the puppet episode. The breakup there. Just some acknowledgement that it had any kind of emotional weight for them. You know, just that it meant something. So I'm really glad we got that scene.

[01:36:14] That little bit of closure at the end of the episode here that I was definitely missing from that. So just well done to everyone on this episode. They all understood the assignment, but especially Babs. He crushed the pauses and the looks out into space for no reason. He was my MVP. He cracked me up. Live long and prosper, guys. Yeah, call this episode Helen of Troy because it has launched a thousand ships.

[01:36:43] Well, and then they jerk away when Ortegas comes over even. Yeah, it was all there at the end where I was like, oh, there is something. Yep. Yeah. I mean, this show has a thing where Spock gets paired with everybody. Like, let me see some other pairings, man. Like, I'm here for it. Like, you don't have to give everybody season-long relationship arcs.

[01:37:08] Like, just these little moments of, like, implied additional chemistry or maybe even implied additional history. Like, I'd be totally ready for that. And I agree with you. Benga crushed it. Babs crushed it this episode. And I think it is because he does tend to be the most haunted character that it just kind of fits with the melodramatic overtones of everything. I really think, like, again, we only got a smidge, but I so want to see Melissa's villain turn.

[01:37:36] Because, I mean, I know Cybok was the villain, but, I mean, I wanted to see kind of that villain. Like, just the scheming daughter kind of. The scheming, yeah, the sneering. Yeah. And I think, just the little bit we got, I think she would have, I'm sure she did nail it. And again, deleted scenes, give them to me in the DVD and I will make the uncut version of this episode. There had better be half an hour of deleted scenes. Oh my God. Just the commercials alone, it sounds like there's, like, dozens of commercials they just riffed on. Yeah. Damn.

[01:38:02] So with this episode being so much about family, I feel like here's a good excuse for me to bring this up. Cameron, I mentioned your children will come back to you in their 30s. And I recently was able to go. You discovered you have a son in his 30s? Wait, does the math work out? I am a son in my 30s. And this weekend I was able to finally go see The Wrath of Khan and Space Seed in the theaters with my dad and brother. My dad and brother live close to me.

[01:38:32] My brother lives a little further away, so there's not always an easy opportunity for all three of us to go do a thing. And it's not always easy to find a thing all three of us really want to go do. So when I found out they were playing Wrath of Khan with Space Seed in the theater and we were all available, I was like, you guys, we have to do this. And we had a blast. It is like there is something indescribable about viewing the thing together.

[01:38:59] Like, my dad is the reason my brother and I like Star Trek, right? If my dad hadn't opened that five pack of movies on top of the television and showed me the original series movies, I wouldn't be on this podcast. If my brother hadn't come with us to the movie theater, he wouldn't know that Khan came from a TOS episode. So, like, there are so many ways that media can matter, especially in family.

[01:39:26] And I think Star Trek, for me, is that media that ties parts of my family together across the vast gulfs of time and the different stages of life and those kinds of things. And as we talked about it, like I was saying, okay, I think I like this episode more. This is a big part of that reason is because family matters. Insert family matters theme song.

[01:39:51] Family matters and telling stories about family and the different forms it can take and the ways that, you know, those relationships can change is really important. So, I'm actually very grateful for this episode and I guess I like it way more than I thought I did at the start. Now, where did the alternate credits belong? I don't know. Oh, I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it. I don't know. I just, like, I'm, okay, actually, you know what? I know where they belonged. They belonged on one of Trillane's monitors.

[01:40:22] As we come back from the cold open, we see the regular credits. Then we see him watching these alternate credits. And maybe the proctor is judging him a little bit. And he goes, it's part of the project. Like, this has to be here. I can't wait till we can talk about the whole season. I know. There are some mentions from some callers today. I'm like, I'm going to keep my lips sealed. But, yep. There's stuff to talk about.

[01:40:48] But also, like, again, I mean, I don't see many people being like, this episode shouldn't exist. What they're saying is too many episodes like this month's season. And, I mean, there's some merit to that. But I have my own feelings on it, too. But, I mean, I think that's all safe for another episode for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it has been a long night. It's kind of been a long season. But there's still three. They're very talkative episodes.

[01:41:16] Three episodes that people are going to have feelings about coming out. Where we might not all agree on again. Yes. And the OpenPike Night crew has to go, well, I think we're just going to change the lighting in here a little bit. What do you guys think? Softer? Softer lighting? More even? All the way throughout? It would have been funny if Pike had pulled out aviators at one point and just wore aviators for half the episode. Well, now I'm mad at the episode because that absolutely shouldn't have happened. So be sure to clean up after yourselves. Be sure to tip your servers. You can go anywhere you want. But you can't stay here.