Strange New WORDS - "A Case of Chiaroscuro" with Dana Horgan & Skylar Ojeda

[00:00:00] This is Dana Horgan and Skylar Ojeda, and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Strange New Worlds. It's like having a mind scanner pointed at the writers room. You're just being paranoid. Is this thing on? Hello? Hello?

[00:00:37] Welcome to Open Pike Night's Strange New Worlds, the series that brings the writers of Star Trek Strange New Worlds on stage to talk about the episode you just watched. I'm your host today, Cameron Harrison, my co-host John and Jesse Bailey. They forgot their papers at home and were taken into custody at a podcast checkpoint, but I'm sure the Klingons are treating them just fine. Just fine.

[00:01:00] A quick note, if you haven't yet watched season four, episode four, A Case of Chiaroscuro yet, stop listening because we are about to spill all its secrets into the open. Today, we welcome to the interrogation table our returning guest, Dana Horgan. Hello. And newcomer Skylar Ojeda. Hello. Thank you both for coming by. Of course. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Absolutely. I have been waiting for this episode for so long.

[00:01:27] If you go back at the end of season two, we kind of did a wish list of genres we would like to see Strange New Worlds do. And I pitched a black and white noir orbiting one of these stars. I think it was after Dune 2. So I was like, they can do it. They can do it. And you gave it to me. I thank you so much. I've gotten, I've gotten zombies in my Star Trek and now I have black and white noir in my Star Trek. I'm so happy. That's right. You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you. Well, speaking of that, what, what was the seed to this episode? What was the original idea and how did it come together?

[00:01:57] I think this one has been gestating for a while. I think we had talked starting in season two about the idea of doing a black and white noir. Our, our extremely brilliant DP Glenn, director of photography has, I think it was a dream. It was a dream of his. I might be speaking out of turn. I mean, you will have to talk to him about it.

[00:02:20] So we, the idea of the genre, which Star Trek has done noirs before, but like, we really wanted to find a reason for it to be black and white that it wasn't just, oh, we're doing a noir. So it's black and white. Back in the holodeck, everyone. Yeah. That, that was sort of the, that was the challenge that we wanted to test ourselves with. But yeah, it, it, we kicked it around, uh, season two, season three, and then, and then it finally was born in season four.

[00:02:47] So the idea was like to do the black and white noir and then probably like, well, now we have to deal with the shades of gray morality. Did the themes come in after the format? I think, and Skylar, please, please jump in. And I think, I think we wanted to be true to the genre and the idea of noir playing with the gray shades of morality, especially in a Star Trek world, especially with our characters where things do tend to be a little bit more black and white.

[00:03:15] And characters who have lived double lives and have had clandestine missions, you know, like they, they naturally, their themes personally played into what we tried to build in the story. Absolutely. Like they was, it was a very carefully designed to tell a story for these characters and sort of explore what they've gone through in their past and, and also who they are now on the enterprise when we meet them. Yeah.

[00:03:41] So as you're building the script, like how did the, the trio that end up on the planet come together? So was it pretty quick? Like, oh, well, these will be our three, or did you kind of go through different combinations? Yeah. I mean, it was always going to be Una's story just because of her past. Babs too. They are just a great pairing together and they have so much real estate together, but he also has his own dark nature. Right. From just what he's, what he's been through. And then Nohura, we just, I think we hadn't seen them together, the three of them. And we wanted her. Yeah.

[00:04:10] We wanted her to have a, have a field mission or an away mission where she's sort of put through it for the first time. Mm-hmm. And that's sort of where the interrogation comes from and, and her learning from Mbenga and, and forming that bond a little bit more. Yeah. And once we knew it was the Klingons, which was a little bit where, where this idea started. Once we were in the Noir, it was, it was, how is it going to be Noir? Where are we going to be? What's the planet going to be?

[00:04:39] Once we knew it was the Klingons, we really wanted to sort of take advantage of Mbenga's past with, with the Klingons, even if it wasn't front and center, even if, if it was a little bit more Una's story. Mm-hmm. So that's sort of, I think that's how that trio ended up. Yeah. I think there was a version where Lon was also down there. There was. And then we really wanted to play the sort of paranoid thriller for her on the Enterprise.

[00:05:02] So that was actually the fun of talking about the black and white genres of classic Noirs, classic Casablanca. Or I mean, Casablanca is not a Noir, but that's, that's sort of where this came from. I mean, if you strip the romance out, it is like, yeah. But a lot of Hitchcock was, was notorious. But then the idea of like the seventies paranoid thriller Noirs we really wanted to play with also.

[00:05:31] And that's sort of where we were like, we can do almost two different styles of Noir. And that's, that's what we wanted to do on the Enterprise with, with Lon. Totally. Yeah. I, I love that aspect of it. I love down on the planet. It kind of, it feels like a little bit of a mashup. I was getting, you know, the Notorious, the Thin Man, Casablanca's reference, Metropolis even. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Oh, Metropolis was a, that was, that was like our visual palette for sure. We were going to talk about that. Yeah.

[00:06:01] And then, yeah, you get like the classic detective and yeah, the, the paranoid thriller. I see that there too. What other homework did you do for this? What else did you draw inspiration from watching this? I was like, Oh, I want to watch more movies like this. And honestly, I can only name like three or four I've seen. What else should I check out? I had never seen this and this was brought to us again by, by Alan who is a, a noir super fan. Yeah. I had never seen No Way Out. So that was another one that was, that was a big one.

[00:06:29] And if I'm not mistaken, Skylar, did, did I force you to watch Andor while we were doing this? We watched, yeah. Cause I had not seen Andor, but only season, yeah, season two, right? Was that the, yeah. I can't remember which one it was at season. No, it's season one. It's season one. Season two came out while we were filming it, I think. Yeah. And so I remember there were sequences with the, the new Damien munitions facility that Dana was like, we're going to try to do this. So I'm just going to show you only these clips.

[00:06:58] I can't even, and now I'm trying to remember what specifically, oh no. And then there was the torture scene and not the, I mean, it was the interrogation scenes as well. I call it torture scene later in my notes. Yeah. So that way I was like, Skylar, you have to watch this cause this is what we're doing. Um, but I mean, who's not inspired, but I mean, Andor is one of the most brilliant television shows we have seen in modern time and, and it was there right as we were doing this. So, uh, yeah, Andor was a, was a big one also.

[00:07:28] Yeah. Now my only complaint with this episode is that Andy circus isn't in it somewhere. I mean, if they only look at the background, we do have a very special extra. I have a extra in the background and I won't, I won't do the, uh, the Easter egg spoiler, but, uh, but we have a very, are we not? Can we not do the spoiler? I don't know. I don't know. Should we, should we, I don't know. You do it. Can I guess? Sure. I thought I saw Davey Perez. No, no, no. Okay. Okay.

[00:07:57] Then I'm, I'm way off base. I know who you're thinking of though. That guy does look like Davey. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, it's, it's in the cafe. Yeah. It's one of the first closeups that we see. It's actually, yeah. Our DP Glenn is, is an extra in the cafe. He got his, his, his moments and he, he looks fabulous. That's amazing. It was funny during the edit. I was, I think it was Mira's first or second run through. And I was like, I can't wait to see the Glenn cameo. And she was like, oh shit. I forgot to throw that in.

[00:08:27] So she had to go back and throw it in. I mean, to be fair, I'm, I'm assuming it's in the final cut. It is. It's in the final cut. If it's not. It's been a minute since I've seen the final cut. I think it's still there. It's there. It's there. Yeah. I'm definitely going back to look cause he's, yeah, he's got a great face for that for sure. Yeah. No. Uh, this was sort of his baby. So. And he's actually not wearing, he's not wearing a costume. That was a fancy Friday and he was wearing the suit to work. And then they were like, go, go in the shop. Just get on stage. Yeah.

[00:08:57] Perfect. We'll say you just wandered through. No worries. Well, going back to her a little bit. I mean, she's not the ingenue, but she kind of fills that role here in a way. So that makes that trio work really well. Did you kind of have a checklist of, of tropes you wanted to go through, or were you kind of just pulling more organically as you went through the script?

[00:09:44] Hmm. And then she's like, I'm going to cover missions like Mbenga has. Yeah. Oh wait, that's, that's my, maybe my favorite line. Um, I don't know if it's still in the cut. Anyway. So she, she's, that's not, that's not her background, but she, she lived through this whole life as a completely kind of different person or not different person, but she had to position herself differently. And, and this whole episode is about looking at herself in relief of this other person who

[00:10:13] she now has to pretend to be and examining who she is now versus who she was then. Yeah. And, and seeing her, her past reflected in, in this person and figuring out what kind of leader she's going to be moving forward. I mean, she's, she's, she's just gotten a promotion. The next step is captain. So that was the, the doppelganger was really the, that was the trope. I mean, Uhura is a little bit of the ingenue because this is her, her first time undercover

[00:10:41] like this, unintentionally undercover. Uh, they did not go to this planet intending to do this mission this way. So it's a little bit on the fly. And so it's a little bit of her, you're sort of racing to keep up and she's very good at it. I mean, she's, she's brilliant. She's brilliant character. So that was, if she feels a little bit like the ingenue it is because it's the first time she's been in a situation like this. Yeah. I do love that line where I'm being is telling her like, Oh, this is fine.

[00:11:10] You know, Una's done stuff like this before. And I'm thinking like, well, not quite like this. And then her is like, well, not quite like this. And then throughout, I do really think you, you strike that balance of them being competent and good at what they're doing, but you can kind of, you see just enough that they are kind of scrambling to keep up, but it's enough of a mask that you buy that the Klingons don't pick up on it. Yeah. No, it was, it's, it was a, it was a fine line. Like we taught, we did, we did talk about Una's arc and this story a whole lot.

[00:11:39] And we wrote many drafts and there were many things that got cut because we only have so much time and it's heartbreaking. Well, now's your chance to bring them to life. What were they? You know, there was, there was, there was so much science fiction in this one too. Like, yes, this is a new more, but it is a heavy science fiction episode just by the nature of the black and white, you know, the radiation of the celestial object. That's more influenced by temperature than it is like by gravity in a sense.

[00:12:06] And, and so there was a lot of that kind of tech that got lost. Oh yeah. Room for character. Yeah. How do the people on this planet, like what, what is their tech like? Why is it like fee? How does it feel a little bit more low-fi than, than ours, but how is it designed for a black and white world? Like we did, we had a lot of fun with like spy tech that, that sort of got cut. It's not a two hour movie. We wanted to write a two hour movie. Like that's what it was. Yeah. I'd watch that version. Yeah.

[00:12:36] You can't do like a cut the green wire, red wire here. Right. That's, that's not. You can't. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a little bit, that's, that was the sense of wanting to put them a little bit on their back foot of, in terms of in the beginning, like Uhura is navigating and it's, we're used to computers that have lights, the colored lights and everything's black and white. And how do you know what's going on? Like how do, how do we, how do we work that way?

[00:13:04] That's also a little bit why we wanted them to feel like they're, again, it was not a planned mission. They're kind of on the fly here, but also they're, they're in an environment that is unfamiliar, like deeply. They have a whole sense that's not there. Yeah. So that was a little bit also the fun of, of, of putting them through that. Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah. But some of that got cut sadly for time and character and the fact that they wouldn't let us make a two hour movie. I think we found, I think we found the sweet spots with it. Right.

[00:13:34] You know, like it's, it's the thing that trips her up in the interrogation. It's the thing that initially trips her up in the shuttle is the thing that Scotty is secretly doing to help Erica still decipher what's on the monitors. Like, I think we trickled it in. We got it in enough. I think. Right, right, right, right. Yes. No, absolutely. And then you had mentioned the idea of making it a Klingon episode. I mean, I do want to talk a little bit more about that because like the Klingons as occupying Nazis is, is both a no brainer and brilliant.

[00:14:03] Like I'm sure Star Trek is kind of tiptoed around it, but I don't know if as directly as this and it's so good. One of the things I think that was exciting to work with in this episode, and not just because of the Andor inspiration, but the idea, we did get to create a strange new world. We got to create a full, full planet that had this very unique but familiar situation.

[00:14:28] And we had this, we are placed in this cold war. So, yes, the Klingons have a history of being more a communist reference, but this was so like, we are, we could start to reflect the things that we want to speak about now that we are looking at and use the cold war between the Klingons and the Federation to see how,

[00:14:57] to talk about fascism sort of, and to talk about occupying planets and what that looks like and how the Federation deals with it and how the Federation wants to tiptoe around it. And sort of, and that's also the murky morality, the idea of we're kind of doing this mission we shouldn't be doing and we don't want to get caught and the Federation can't step in and save us. I think there were also unexpectedly themes of East and West Berlin that really came into play too.

[00:15:26] And I remember Jonathan Lee, our production designer, when we were doing one of the scouts said, it oddly feels more like an East and West Berlin story than a Nazi occupied story. It's a very good, yeah. I remember when he said that, that was, that was, it's one of the things we love to do on the show where it's not just one thing. Yeah. Where you can see the metaphor reflected across a number of things. Mm-hmm. And again, like so many things got cut out for time, but we spent so much time building this,

[00:15:54] this world and these characters and, and the people that lived there and the resistance they were building and the resistance that Una found herself thrust into and what that looked like, and how they were operating and, and, and who they were and who they were before the Klingons decided that they needed their planet. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk more about that. Cause Matar 12 is a beautifully fully realized world. It's, it's a lived in metropolis. And I was immediately like, I just want to spend all my time here.

[00:16:23] Uh, how much of that was in the script? Like, how did you describe it in the script? All of it. All of it. I mean, I, it, again, the way our, the way this, this wonderful, beautiful collaborative show works is we are, I don't want to say like, we know all of the designs before we start, right? Like we have an idea and they start building like the trains, the train station, the elevatedness, the, the- The blimps. The blimps. Yeah. Zeppelins.

[00:16:50] Like that, we like, we all kind of conceived of it together. Then there are some things that because it's, it's TV and you have to sort of decide what's going to be the big build and what's going to be the big set pieces versus what, what, what locations you have. We are, we are sadly not indoor. We cannot go everywhere and do everything. But, uh, we really wanted to lean into the train and the train station a whole lot more. We had some original, original scenes were scripted there.

[00:17:18] Some bigger conflicts, bigger action moments. Yeah. All of Una and Roman's action scenes were going to be at a train station with a running train. That final time. Yeah. Yeah. But we can't do that. That's okay. That's okay. We, we, we can do other things cause we are TV and it's fine. But we decided to really build that cafe, which is gorgeous. Yeah. And we are so lucky to have had that.

[00:17:44] And it really was, I don't know how many people have discussed our, I know we're the writers, we're not the people who make these things, but, um, the way we use our volume, our AR wall has a number of different ways we can use it. And this one, they built it. It was almost 360. Like it was stunning what they did. Like when you were in it, when you were on set, you're like, Oh, I'm, I'm in this cafe. Like I'm here. I don't have to imagine the, like, there is no blue screen.

[00:18:14] Like I'm here. And it was stunning. Everything you see on that screen. We walked in front of, like, there is truly nothing that's fake. Even the aerial views up top. Like we didn't, we've never done that before. The, the, the sheer cinema magic was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the cafe is, is on the volume, like the walls. Oh, am I not, am I not supposed to say that? No, please. I just, I'm just saying I would not have bought that. I would have assumed that was a big set that you built or found.

[00:18:42] It was, but it was a big set on the wall. Right. Right. So we used the wall and again, I hope I'm allowed to say these things. We just talked to Chris Fisher who loves. Okay. Good. As long as he's telling you everything. He could talk all day about the volume and what it does. Yes. Yes. Fantastic. No, please. Um, so the walls of the cafe and through the windows of the cafe are all, and a lot of the table, a lot of the extension of the room of the cafe are all, all walls, but the set

[00:19:11] design, like the, the set deck is all real. The bar is real. So like all of that was very, very, very real. And I mean, a seamless blending the attention to detail of this set deck. Like I remember Skylar and I sat down between setups or lunch or whatever, and we were in one of the like love seat seating areas and we just looked at the coffee table and there was like the, like attention to an alien planets version of like gambling games.

[00:19:41] Yes. I, and it was so cool. And it's just like our, our set deck, our props, like, it's just, it was pure cinema magic. It was like walking into both a futuristic new art cafe and like a 1940s 1920s, new art cafe. It's like a perfect blend. I was marveling at the blend of like 1920s art deco with strange new world sensibility, but strange new world sensibility is already a sixties aesthetic with modern sensibility.

[00:20:10] Like it all melded. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a, I think that really came together too in the costumes. I think the costumes were the, probably part of that we could sing for praises. So the cows come home. We are going to drag her kicking and screaming out of this podcast to talk about this episode. Ask her, ask her, ask, and so I don't, I won't, I won't spoil the content, but the way she considered designing the costumes and the colors they needed to be in for black and white.

[00:20:40] Yes. I mean, I can't, I cannot speak to it professionally, but what she did was so thoughtful and so in like intensely perfection. Like it was, it was so intelligent. Like her, like the silvers on screen, the silvers on screen are often green fabrics. There are, or red fabrics, maroon. Like she picked colors that were going to translate to the perfect shades of silver and gray and black and white that we wanted. Yeah. It was stunning. Well done. Well done everyone.

[00:21:08] Well, the next question is from our cohost, Jesse, and I'm just going to read it because he's talking about episodes. I haven't watched yet of star Trek. This episode has many parallels to the original series episodes, errand of mercy and patterns of force. Yeah. How do you craft the balance of paying homage to what has come before versus the need to tell a meaningful, relevant story such as the one you tell here. Skylar go. Well, you, you, we wanted, yeah, we wanted to pay such homage to core and not just more.

[00:21:37] The character, but also John Colacos who played core. That's why I don't know if people can understand in the script, but the call operation Colacos is a reflection of John Colacos, the actor. Or we really wanted to give this character who was so powerful and so memorable, a genuine backstory. This is before he shows up in errand of mercy. This is before we know him to be what we will see him to be in TOS, but we wanted to give that context.

[00:22:05] And we wanted to give that conflict in errand of mercy context. Dana. No, that, that is, that is exactly what we, yeah. Yes. That character. I, the first time I watched, I didn't pick up on the core name drop. So I just thought this was a great Klingon character. And then Jesse pointed that out. And whenever we watched, I was like, Oh, this is amazing. Like it gives them so much more weight beyond that. I mean, I don't know what to ask. The performance was so good. His lines were so good. Yeah.

[00:22:29] And he, he delivered them with real, I guess maybe my question is because he specifically, I felt like speaking of balancing tone. Yeah. Because on one half, this episode is dealing with dark darkness and shades morality and deep character arcs. On the other hand, it's a bit of a pastiche and I'm having a lot of fun with some of the over the top lighting and line deliveries and costume and character. And was that difficult to find that balance? Cause you hit it. Yes.

[00:22:59] Yes. Yes. It was, it was, it was, it was a challenge. Um, it was what we were going for. Cause there is a level in traditional noir in the genre of this is very dark and people are doing very dark, immoral or morally questionable things. And, and the themes are very dark, but there is fun to it. It's why we still watch them. It's why it's, it's why we enjoy a notorious and we still watch them to this day.

[00:23:28] And to me, what was interesting about poor and the tone that he struck and is this sort of sense. And again, this was probably like the and or blending through at the time, this like sense of like the politics and the bureaucracy, the simple bureaucracy of these things of like, who's in charge? Who's the boss? Who's afraid of that? Yeah.

[00:23:51] How, how much of like a mobster situation is it versus how much of a, like, I work for my government and I'm doing what my government tells me to do. And like, and that sort of, and wanting to reflect that in both Una and Mbenga's journey in this episode, but then also continuing on of how they start to examine the Federation itself. Yeah.

[00:24:21] And, and, and, and Starfleet and, and where their stories go respectively. Yeah. And core sort of was the fun embodiment of those sort of deeper, totally deeper thoughts and explorations of, cause we, he's, he's such a lower level in a lower level position than he has when, when we meet him in TOS and, and watching who he was then. Yeah. And then who he became. Yeah.

[00:24:48] Well, Klingons have such a natural dramatic flair in you. Yes. Like they are, they're a bit flamboyant. And so it leans into it. I mean, I think all of that boils down in the interrogation scene where again, it's difficult to watch. It's horrifying. You're watching her scream and suffer, but it's also kind of fun to watch. And like the, his deliveries and we've got like this. He's so funny. Could be cheesy mind reading device, but like, it's still effective.

[00:25:15] And I mean, yeah, that seems specifically, can you just talk about writing that scene? Yeah. Take it away. I will say just to give our actor who played core just so much credit. He found a lot of that off, off the page, you know, like he found, he found this playfulness with the words and he found that sexual attraction to Una off the page too. Yeah. He built that in and it was, it was just so perfect for the character. Yeah. I mean, and I think it worked because playfulness can also be terrifying.

[00:25:42] If you are in a horrifying situation and the person doing it to you is being weirdly playful, it's, it's psychotic. Like it's terrifying. Yes. Totally. Well, and I should say there's, there's also an element of heroism to the scene too, because you are watching a hurrah rise to the challenge. So that's like, that's another element that's playing in that scene as well.

[00:26:04] I think the start, something that Star Trek has done for a long time with Klingons is, you know, they represent this culture that we don't fully understand and this bureaucracy that we kind of are opposed to. But they are a full fledged culture with their own morals and values themselves. And we don't want to actually like insult them oddly by what they have. We just want to pay homage to them too. And in interrogation, you know, they have their own methods of coercion and the mind scanner, which is actually from a Star Trek comic book. Mm hmm.

[00:26:33] We pulled it directly from there. We just wanted to pay homage to all these little details that we knew about him and, and the Klingons and their methods of, of conquering. And we know they have a sense of honor and loyalty and these things. And we, and we didn't want to not have that for them in this episode. And that is a, that is a little bit where the character Roman comes in because he betrays his people and he has no honor and he is, he is the true villain.

[00:27:03] And, and Una can identify that even in reflection of him against the Klingons. It's there. I know, I know why they're, I don't agree with what they're doing, but I know why they're doing it. You, you are, you are the problem. Right. Yeah. Yeah. He's kind of like the Sonny and Godfather a little bit. Like he's kind of the little weasel that just wants the chair behind the desk. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. He'd be the, Oh my gosh. Why am I forgetting his name? Uh, uh, M. Uh, from Casablanca. Why am I forgetting?

[00:27:33] Oh. Peter Lorre. He's like, he played by Peter Lorre. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. Well, Jesse actually, uh, wanted to ask a little more about the mind scanner. He picked up that it was from the comic and how you wound up using it in conjunction with like the Klingon inkblot test and using perception to create coercion. Like how did, how did that device specifically come about? Yeah. Well, we wanted a couple, a couple eggs that we were planting to come together. Right.

[00:28:00] So they're on a black and white planet and they can't see in color. They are not Mataran. They are part of the Federation. The Klingon's greatest enemy. We wanted to show what it would look like for somebody who is psychologically trying to hide both of those things from the Klingon. Um, and a mind scanner that can read your mind and put a delta in front of you and pinpoint that you're lying to them was the easiest and clearest way to do that. And it also felt like the most noir and doing a lot of research, you know, through old

[00:28:28] Trek literature and Trek comics, we found this device that really didn't have any, any explanation to it. That was introduced by the Klingons that we just totally stole and repurposed. Well, not stole. It's our franchise, but we repurposed it and we gave it just this depth. Something that did get cut. That was a bummer was the, so the lights that are affecting Uhura are this like amplified radiation. And that was like a partner with the mind scanner to weaken her to then allow her to her lies to come to the forefront.

[00:28:59] But I think what Henry did in the end to streamline it and focus it on the mind scanner was really, really smart. Mm hmm. Well, let's leave Matar for a little bit and head up to the enterprise there where, uh, Laon's storyline seems to indicate that some paranoia can be healthy, especially if it's tempered with discretion. Uh, was that an accurate read of her scenes and what you were trying to convey there? Yeah, no, that was the, that was the idea.

[00:29:23] This, um, sense where she was coming into the story doubting herself, uh, and doubting her instincts. And in the end, she was right. And, and, and the question then becomes what does she do with that information? Mm hmm. Does she keep chapel secret or not? And again, we wanted the whole story to sort of reflect that gray area of what do we do

[00:29:51] to help when we know somebody needs to be helped? When we know that what we are doing is technically morally correct, but it is against our rules. What do we do? And that is, uh, that's, that was the, where we wanted to push Laon to, uh, in terms of her worrying about where she was and what she had inside her and what she might be becoming

[00:30:19] and watch her realize she could still trust herself and she could still trust herself to make decisions. She also provided, I think a really classic noir trope too, which is not only paranoia, but looking at the person closest to you to gauge whether you are paranoid or not. And we use Spock as their love angle to represent that. And I think they were a great pairing because they're going through some relationship stuff in this season and in the season end, um, using him as that backboard for her own, uh,

[00:30:48] psychological breakdown, I think was really, really fun. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Was there a temptation to make an Amelia moon reference in passing here or, you know, I just love that. We get another detective. I don't think so. I think it's, I think it is just baked into her character as the security officer. She's gonna investigate things. That's her job. Yeah. So I think, I think that's, that's more where we were coming from with that. Uh, but I mean, you know, I love a million.

[00:31:19] I was gonna say, Dana, you wrote both mystery episodes last season, this season. Is that happenstance or? I love a mystery. All right. What can I tell you? What can I say? You and Picard. You and Picard. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, let's stay on the ship, but maybe a shift tones a little bit with one scene. I mean, you fill in so much about Scotty and Ortegas's friendship since they got over their issues, uh, an episode or two ago. It feels like this pairing is especially attractive to the writers and that you enjoy exploring it.

[00:31:49] Is that right? Yeah, no, I think they, I mean, the thing about the blessing of getting to work on T and it, I apologize. My dog is going, my dog is going crazy right now. My neighbor is mowing their lawn. Anyway, I'm so sorry.

[00:32:04] The beauty of television and working in long form storytelling with characters and actors that you get to explore in depth is that you find friendships and relationships that are unique or an odd pairing. And then suddenly you're like, oh, wait, this makes total sense. And let's, let's sort of dig into how their dynamics work together. And, and that was really, I think that was really fun for us with these two. Yeah.

[00:32:33] They're not only like kind of personality adversaries, but they're also professional in a way. He's the engineer and she's the pilot. He builds the ship to make it go as quick as it can and as the function and she destroys it. And she tests it. She pushes it to the brink. She tests it. And, and, and I think, you know, we, in this season, we see them start to respect each other more and start to respect those roles and, and also just get, get along more. Yeah. And it's, it's fun. It's fun to dig.

[00:33:02] You know, there, there are certain relationships that are baked in from years. I mean, Una and Pike, Una and Lon, like those, they go way back and it's fun to watch relationships form. It's fun to watch friendships build. Yeah. We just rewatched the last few seasons in preparation for four. And it felt like three was really where the show started kind of becoming an adult or like organically growing as opposed to like, well, this is the show we're going to make.

[00:33:31] And then three was where we're like, Oh, Spock and Lon have chemistry. Let's do something with them. So there's the thing. I'm not going to do my like lecture about the, what we, what we lost going to 10 episodes and, and seasons that have years in between them is that television is a living, breathing thing. And, and chemistry between, between actors is, is real. And as writer, like, we're not, we're not feature writers.

[00:34:00] We're not, I mean, some of us may be feature writers, but in this scenario, it's not the, here's your, here's your cute little tide with a bow movie. And we, we watch it grow and that's its own beautiful thing. I love movies, but yeah, it takes a minute to, to find that chemistry and, and to let it live. And it takes the audience seeing it and it takes the audience reacting to it. Not to say that sometimes you wish for a new R and you get a new R because you can speak to the, I'm just kidding.

[00:34:31] But like, but we are the audience also. So when you start to see the cuts and you see it live and you see it breathe, that is when you get to sort of play with what you got. Like it's like the, Oh, there's, there's tools in this box. We did not know existed in the first season because we hadn't shot it yet or even in season two. And that's sort of, I mean, I like Ethan and Chrissy are just fabulous, both fabulous performers and just like brought a fantastic experience.

[00:35:00] And then we could all, you know, put the chemistry to the screen. So it was, you know, very hard to, to resist writing to that. And the same thing, you know, the same thing with Martin and Melissa, like they're both super, they're both such great. They're so great with comedy. It was, it was so hard to resist, but they both have extreme depth and can do the emotional arcs also. So it was like, yes, let's put them on screen together. Let's tell stories about them.

[00:35:24] I always say in the old network days, in the old network days, you, you, you did, you should never judge when a new show came out in late September. Episode six was the one where you would really be able to see what a show was because that was the first episode written after the season premiere. Yeah. Well, and some shows, I mean, TNG, so it wasn't until season three, really. I mean, so you can really see what it could be, you know, sometimes.

[00:35:51] Two or three seasons. And that's fine too. But yeah, we can bring back 22 episodes. I agree. I agree. I mean, not to denigrate the early seasons either. I mean, the best laid plans were, were excellent, but it, it gives the show, you know, it's fun to see it change and grow. And, and, you know, you don't want it to stay the same. You know, one other pairing I actually want to shout out just after having rewatched the final version is Lon and Pike.

[00:36:16] I think, you know, they only have a couple scenes together in this episode, but it really shows how Pike is paying attention to everybody on his ship. He really is a quiet force and the way that he not only is watching long, but then also trusts her decision to not tell him when he clearly knows there was more. I think that was a really beautiful, like you are nightcap of the episode. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:40] Whose idea was it for the, I'd rather be stuck in a pattern buffer line because chef's kiss. That was just the right amount of camera wink. I'm going with Skylar on this one. Although actually, can I say there are a couple happy line mistakes in this episode. That was one of them because I didn't, even when writing it, didn't see the depth that it actually had. And also Dana, I haven't told you this, but the North by Northwest line was a total happy accident. I did not. Oh really? I thought you did that on purpose.

[00:37:11] I know. I total happy accident. Find us somewhere safe to land, Ensign. Surveillance spotlight situated one click North by Northwest. It's together and I worked together for, for a very long time on the script, but that was in an, I think his first pages of that scene. Yeah. And I was like, perfect. Perfect. Total happy mistake. What? I know. You should have not revealed that you did not do that on purpose. Cause I was like, yes, this is the tone where this is where, this is the world. It was happy mistake. We were locked in.

[00:37:41] We were just locked in. His genius is so deep at subconscious. Yeah. Yeah. Also another hilarious scene on the ship, of course, is cadet Asha. I love, I love whenever you guys kind of poke fun at Vulcans and this has done like so well. Love it. What's bringing her into this episode. Was that kind of like a prerequisite? Like we need an Asha moment to kind of continue her arc or did that come organically? She was filling in for Ahura's station. Mm-hmm. So we knew that she was already in that physical spot.

[00:38:10] And because this was kind of a communications issue that Lon was investigating. Yeah. It naturally led to her and we were trying to develop her as a new character. Yeah. It worked all around. Yeah. Perfect. It was, Lon would go to Ahura for this information and Ahura being the character she is would deliver it or not deliver it in the way that that character does. We wanted to see how Asha would do it. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Excellent.

[00:38:35] And since you are the writers, can you reveal just how many Klingon occupied territories Mbenga has been in? Absolutely not. Or else we'd have to kill you. Zero. I mean, zero. The answer is zero. Zero. Zero. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, what do you think when all is said and done and people look back at this episode? What do you think will be remembered for when people say, oh, it's the one with? Core. Core. Yeah. Core. Also the costumes. I hope people remember the costumes.

[00:39:05] They're fabulous. Well, we come to the moment where you both, and maybe we've talked around it, have to reveal your favorite lines from the episode. Okay. I'm going to change mine from an earlier thought. I love when Mbenga says, when it goes uhura for saying, I feel like I should be writing all this down. And Mbenga says, take notes with your eyes and be aware of whose eyes are taking note of you. Yeah. That's one of my favorites too. That up there with Core and Una.

[00:39:34] I mean, just, Rebecca's performance is stunning throughout this whole episode and that scene with her and Core at the end is just gangbusters magical. And I do very much like, I think Skylar, I think this was yours. The fate was cruel and not making you a Klingon. And at that point, you almost don't know if Core is talking to who he thinks Una is or the Una she's been for the last 24 hours, which is our Una. Yeah.

[00:40:02] And there's an ambiguity there and sort of respect and I'm very much like that. Yeah. Speaking of um, if he knew her secret at that point, I did want to ask Trillim, is that the bartender? Uh, Jalem. Jalem. Jalem. We don't get subtitles on our screeners. Yeah. It's like Madjul Barrett. Like uh... Yeah. Okay. Oh, nice. Jalem, I don't believe there's the scene where he discovers she's not Nevet.

[00:40:32] Was that intentional or was that a deleted scene? Did you just not feel you needed that in the story you were telling? I think it doesn't matter. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, like, she's obviously a deceptive woman, but he, that's what he trusts. His, his compass leads towards deception. So, she's doing the bidding that he wants and kind of whoever is the face of that, it doesn't really matter. He has a goal and whoever can help service that goal, he has the goal of the revolution and whoever can deliver that is, is who he needs.

[00:41:00] And if it's Una, then it's Una. Yeah. Makes sense. Well, anything else you want to say about the episode before we leave? Any other deleted bits you want to share with the world? That was just a joy. Well, there was that dance number. Sorry. There was no dance number. Oh, you could have had a big band back there in the cafe. There's a music number. There's a... There's a music plot, but yes, there's a... I was just kidding.

[00:41:29] Sorry, Skylar, you said something real. Please say it and I won't jump on it. I'm sorry. No, just... I mean, every person involved in this episode gave it their all. I mean, this was one that everybody showed up to work and said, how do we make this the best? Yes. And that was just such a... It's such a collaborative process in general, but then this one really took that to another level. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it is one of those... There's a lot of big swings in Stranger Worlds.

[00:41:55] I don't know if you know, but I mean, this one really is like the music, the costumes, the lighting, the set design, the performances. Like, yeah, it was a team effort. Yeah. And Mira, can we shout out Mira? We will shout out Mira. It was incredible. Oh my goodness. Yeah. The vision she put into this stuff. I know. We... Yeah. Thank you, Skylar. Yes. Yes. Mira was incredible.

[00:42:20] If you're watching or listening to this on the drop day, which would be the day after the episode aired, tune in tomorrow for our conversation with Mira. Aww. Well, Skylar, Dana, thank you again so much. And I'm sure we'll be talking to you again in the future. Thank you, Cameron. Thank you.