Strange New WORDS - "Level-Five Transporter Accident" with Henry Alonso Myers & Dana Horgan

[00:00:00] This is Henry Alonso Myers and Dana Horgan, and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words. Will the writers explain how Declan Milder would have done it better? Ooh, Declan Milder. Is this thing on? Hello? Hello?

[00:00:38] Hello, everyone. It is time to play the music. It's time to light the lights. It's time to meet our writers on Strange New Words tonight. Hi, my name is Cameron Harrison, and my co-host John and Jesse were involved in some sort of Level-Five incident, and they're now unable to reach their podcasting equipment. I sent a Vulcan IT over to help them. We'll see if everything goes according to plan. But in the meantime, it's my pleasure to welcome back to the stage the writers of Level-Five Transporter Accident,

[00:01:07] the sensational, inspirational, celebrational, muffetational, Henry Alonso Myers and Dana Horgan. Hello. Hi there. How's it going? We're having fun with these intros this season. You're giving us a lot of material to work with. I'm delighted to be here with Dana. I am delighted to be here with Henry and you, Cameron, and all of the listeners. That's right.

[00:01:35] Well, I say that because, frankly, the episodes I have most enjoyed working on just about were always the ones that I wrote with Dana. Aww. Pretty much. Yeah. Thanks, Henry. That's wise. They were always the most fun. I like to have fun. You know? We do. He says that to everyone, Dana. No, I don't. And I will say, and I want to express one thing that I loved saying, which was that Dana constantly would say, I don't know how to do funny things.

[00:02:03] She would say that and then continue to write very, very, very funny things. So it was great. I was like, Henry, you know what? This needs a ghost. And he's like, that's the other episode. The other one. I would have been there for a puppet ghost. I would have pulled out some of the Muppet Christmas Carol puppets. Oh, my God. Let me tell you. All right. This is now officially a Muppet Christmas Carol podcast.

[00:02:31] Ooh, maybe we'll have you on for a Christmas episode. Ooh. Okay. Planting seeds. Okay. Let's talk about this episode. The season four episode we have been teased about and known the longest is finally here. The puppet-sode. Let's go back to April of 2024 when Akiva first, we thought, joked about doing a puppet episode. Had this idea been on the board at that time? Was he drawing from that or was that the first seed? How did this come to be? April 2024? That's what Google told me.

[00:03:01] Okay. That's when that article came out. That's interesting. I've been talking about it with him probably since the first season. We've been trying to figure out a time to do it. I mean, we always have a list of like, what are the things that we have yet to try? A lot of what we look at is kind of like, I think as a professional TV writer, you end up working on a lot of shows. There are some very interesting standard types of genre elements that you will use on those shows.

[00:03:30] And I think the real trick is not you're copying what other people have done, but you're trying to express your version of a well-known trope. And can you do it and make it feel like the show you are doing? And this is one of those ones where like in the same way that the musical, which Dana bled her heart into, took advantage of a thing that was extremely hard to do and tried to express it as Star Trek.

[00:03:56] The puppets were sort of the next big swing that we wanted to try because it's, it's tremendously hard and challenging and takes a lot of prep and a lot of post. And, but you know, we all love puppets, you know, there's a Venn diagram, I think of the people who love Star Trek and the people who love the Muppets. And it's, it's fairly large in the center. I mean, I'm sure there are people on either end of it who don't like the other one, but the people in the center, I don't want to know those people.

[00:04:26] I mean, including Dana and myself, people in the center, love them both. And that's who we're, that's who we were writing it for. Yeah. Agreed. Well, thank you. To answer your question about if it was in 2024. I mean, as Henry said, we had been talking about it forever in April. I don't think our room had started yet for season four. So I cannot say it wasn't on the board yet, but it would have been on the board the first week we were in.

[00:04:55] As I recall it at the very end of season three, when we were producing the last like maybe four episodes, Dana and I happened to be on set and we had a long conversation with Jordan Canning, our director, our brilliant director for this, who, you know, had, and we wanted to do a puppet episode, but we were sort of like, look, we're going to need someone who really understands how to work with puppets.

[00:05:20] She worked on Fraggle Rock a great deal, had a lot of experience with them. And so we just kind of did a long dive through how to do that on our sets, essentially. She, yeah, she really gave us a crash course in what would be necessary to pull this off and whether or not this show could with the elements that already existed, being mostly like the sets and whatnot.

[00:05:50] I mean, that was a lot of fun, but that's sort of where it went from being a dream to, oh, are we, are we gonna, are we gonna do this? I think we're gonna do this. Cold hard reality. Yeah. Why, why was now the time? Was it just that discussion or were there other factors? We knew there was a lot of prep. Yeah. It was like studying for a test kind of, you know, we, we, we, we, we were really trying to get a sense of like, how much time do we need to do this? How much production, this is all producer stuff.

[00:06:20] Yeah. But even in the, even that, like it just to talk about like the script a little bit, like the way this show works, Henry, and I think you like always talk about the way a show works is like, we have to, we conceive the stories and the scripts hand in hand with production. Like in, in what can we do? What is possible? How does it work? And, and how, what is the best story? How do we tell the story within those elements? And, and with puppets in particular, it was, hey, look, there are things puppets can do and puppets can't do.

[00:06:48] So being able to have those conversations before we ever engaged in what is the story? What is the plot? What are the characters going through?

[00:06:57] Having that knowledge before we engaged in this was incredibly helpful. I think if we had written a crazy puppet script, just based on our, you know, knowledge of watching Muppet shows and, and, and, and puppet shows and movies, it would have been a, it was already a giant mountain, a giant mountain to scale. I think it would have been an astronomical mountain if we started in the other direction.

[00:07:25] Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, usually what we, we start with a concept of what we want to do with the AR wall and a broad idea of what we're going to do with character and who are the characters that we want to focus on. And like when we're trying to think of all the other episodes, we try to separate, you know, usually you got to pick two out of three things that you can do in an episode.

[00:07:48] And with this one, we were like, all right, well, we know this is probably going to be an episode that we shoot as a bottle show to the extent that we can, because we don't want to go on location. We don't want to have to deal with it. Yeah. We want to keep this on our sets. Yeah. Yeah. Do all our builds for that. And then there was the, the other question was, we're going to need an entire staff of puppeteers to play the puppets. And we're going to need to build these puppets and how long is that going to take?

[00:08:15] And that was also, uh, we reached out to Henson very, very early, uh, basically to be like, uh, we really love you guys. We think you guys are incredibly amazing and talented. And we know that you like on some level love star Trek and we on some level love Muppets. And we want to find a way to merge these two things. It was such a joyful partnership of how do we blend these two beloved things?

[00:08:41] And, and, and it was, it was just such a delight. The whole process was such a delight. So with all that in mind, was Pike getting a new chair, one of the first story elements? Cause I assume that was for the puppeteering. Yes. No, I mean you, that good question you asked the answer is yes. Uh, we knew we had to create a new captain.

[00:09:01] One of the things we really wanted to do. Um, and this is just one of the things that Henry, it's always, every time we go down one of these genre paths, it's what's the most fun in terms of doing our show, like the classic elements of our show, but with this genre.

[00:09:20] And one of the hardest things, but one of the things we definitely wanted to do was a ship battle, full puppet, you know, mostly, you know, if you do like the, you know, the medium shots of the puppets is a lot easier, but do a full proscenium of the bridge required a lot of extra thought. And the first thought was, well, if we're going to have puppet Pike in that chair, we need a puppeteer chair.

[00:09:45] Yeah. You need, you need to fit someone under the chair who can then manipulate the puppet. The hole in that. Yeah. Are we taking away the magic of puppets? We might be, I don't know. They're not real. They're created by amazing artists and then they're, they've brought to life by amazing puppeteers. And that's the magic of puppets.

[00:10:03] Well, usually there's, there's literally one to three people who manipulate these puppets. Cause like they have, if it's just the mouth moving, that's one hand. If it's the mouth and one hand moving, that's another thing. If it's a mouth and two hands moving, if it's a mouth, two hands and feet moving, that becomes a whole thing.

[00:10:20] You know, it's just the most amazing thing to watch. Like I was obsessed with watching them, these artists work. It was insane. The amount of work that goes into moving one puppet and it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

[00:10:35] They took it very seriously too. That was the other fun thing about the whole element is that I think every day before we would start with the puppeteers, the puppeteers would have this moment with each other where they would, you just, you just happened to overhear them saying something like guys, guys, guys, we get to work on the enterprise today. And then they'd all cheer and then they go do it. And it's like, but they, it was like every day was a joyous thing for them. That's cool. That's cool. Oh, we've got to talk to some of them. I got to reach out.

[00:11:06] So you're talking to Jordan Canning about the, the logistics of it all. It sounds like she came on pretty early relatively for her journey. Did she have any way early in the story? Did she have any contributions to that part of it? We just kind of kept her in the loop very much. Yeah. Again, it was like, it was, she was sort of our, she was our puppet guide. You know, she was, it was the, again, knowing what puppets can and can't do. It was like, Hey, we're thinking about doing a sequence like this, or we're thinking about that.

[00:11:35] Like, is that possible? And that's sort of, that's very much where Jordan was our, our puppet rock. Were there any sequences that you thought of that she just immediately was like, no. It's funny. I don't, I don't think of it that way. I feel like there were a lot of, I'm sure she would have been more diplomatic than that. No, but there were a few that she was like, let's definitely do this. Yes. Yeah. Or she was like more of this. This is going to play really well. Like she was that, that was extremely helpful.

[00:12:04] Three puppets in a trench coat. Three puppets in a trench coat. That was one of my questions is who do I send the thank you card to for that idea? Oh, that was the first card on the board. I don't know if that's true, but in my mind, that's true. Oh, it was up there. We talked about these for so long that it's like, it's hard to tell you. I, again, I say we have a lot of really creative people and, and while Dana and I wrote the episode, there was pieces from everybody. Oh, I'm sure. Full room, full room engagement. It was, it was wonderful.

[00:12:31] I mean, not to restate everything that we've stated before, but like, we try really hard to find directors who are perfect for the specific type of episode we're doing. We try to involve them early. We try to have a long conversations with them. We talk about how we're going to do things. And as a result, I think we actually get to try things that are not last minute and staged and difficult to figure out. We get to do things that take a long time to prep. And the director, to the extent that we can, is as involved as, we try to let them in as early as possible.

[00:13:01] And they tend to be involved for a long time. This is probably, she really bled into this episode. I mean, she was so. I would say this was, even with the prep, it was an extremely challenging episode. Watching her and all the puppeteers, the battle sequence at the end, the fight on the bridge, was one of the most massive things I think we've ever done. Huge.

[00:13:25] And every, it was, it was so collaborative because every artist working on the piece had a different piece of expertise. So the puppeteers knew what they could do and how it would look. And Jordan knew what she could do and how it would look. And Henry and I had to, like, worked with that, with the story, to tell the individual pieces of the story within the battle. And it was a true, all right, everybody's got a piece of this. Everybody's rolling up their sleeves. Everybody's bringing something to it.

[00:13:53] And it was like three, three days, maybe? I don't remember. It was a long time. It was, it was a massive shoot. But that's, I mean, that's what you're, that's what you're getting into when you dive into puppets. If you're listening or watching this on, on drop day, be sure to tune in tomorrow for our conversation with Jordan Canning, who goes into a lot of that for sure. Yeah. She's the best. She will have a lot to say. And it's definitely worth hearing everything that she has to say. The other element of that that was huge was that we had,

[00:14:22] there were costumes and prosthetic elements, meaning like there, we knew that we were going to have these Orion pirates enter the ship. We needed a look for them. We needed to find people who could be both funny, but also dramatic. We spent a lot of time with, you know, the green makeup. There were just a lot of different elements that we kept having to deal with. Was it always going to be Orion pirates? Or did you go down a... I think they came in early.

[00:14:50] I don't know if it was always Orion pirates. I feel like that was an early one because we wanted aliens to invade who, you know, who didn't require like massive prosthetic builds or really complicated, you know, like time to get them to get them ready. So that, that was part of it. We'd had a lot of luck with Orion's before in the animated episode and felt like it was a fun time to have them return. They feel totally appropriate to changing worlds. I was just,

[00:15:20] I was wondering if it was a Kermit reference, but I mean, we did talk about, and it's not easy being green joke. We did not do it, but it was set on set. Probably where it should stay. I was stepping up into that just now. Well, how fun was it working with Joe and Rachel? I mean, I am the best. Delightful. Delightful. Yeah. They were super fun. So game for anything. Oh God. Yeah. Half the goal with that is to like, I think in a, the,

[00:15:49] in a standard format for that kind of episode, those characters come in, they are bad guys. They declare their bad guy wants, and then they kind of, you know, rush through and they're, they say scary things and so forth. And the fun, I think of what we try to push for on the show very much is, okay. Once you figure that out, you figured out the first of maybe three things that you got to figure out. And the next one is like, what kind of a person are they? Like if you saw them on the street, what's the kind of shit that they would say to you?

[00:16:19] And then what is their genuine internal problem, which isn't like sometimes the thing that they want to solve, but it's like, what makes them fun to write? What makes that character really stand out? The character Joe was playing was a delight because he was, we were trying to lean into a, the more modern, I mean, I feel like they, they did this really well on, on a little decks, but like the modern understanding of the Orion's being like, it's a society that is specifically run by the women.

[00:16:48] The men are the like behind the scenes people. They just try to go along with what they're doing. And we really tried to sort of show that through culture. And in that way you can frankly make, make fun of the world as it exists by flipping things. And that is, that was the, he ended up being a delight for that reason. Yeah. You know, agree. Now, Dana, you're credited on two episodes where Spock gets broken up with.

[00:17:17] Is it you or is it him? Um, Hmm. I mean, we just really love a breakup scene. And I, and I, and I think, and this is, I might be able to, I don't want to spoil anything because I think this really, it needs to be discussed in a whole because it is about two people coming to terms with being broken up with or, or,

[00:17:44] or breaking up the end of a relationship that they maybe didn't even realize was as significant as it had become. And, and how sometimes it's easy to say, okay, like we're, this is where, you know, we're ending things, but it takes, it's like, it's like a two steps forward, one step back, kind of like half met where your emotions haven't quite processed what your brain is trying to tell them. If that makes sense. So this might, that process,

[00:18:10] this might be a different conversation in more of a whole scenario. But yeah, no, I love a breakup scene. Big fan, big fan, break those hearts. I mean, come on. Dana, Dana is really good at writing character. And, and I think our show gets really boring if it's just about the surface, like science or like action elements. These things are always much better if the character has something actually going on. And it's,

[00:18:40] and I think that is a, a very specific skill set that Dana has in a big way. Thanks, Henry. Yeah. No, I think, I think particularly for these characters, I think they are two characters who maybe do first think later usually, or do first feel later. And, and they are both, they are, they're neither one of them as a super in tune with their emotions kind of person.

[00:19:10] So, so I think there is a, a level of, it is logical that we break up, obviously. And then things kind of catch up to them because of another experience. Oh wait, did I really want that? Yeah. It's like, oh, another experience says, oh no, I have to, like, that's real. Like I've, I'm not, I don't have you anymore. And I'm processing that. Like, I think that, and I think that's, what's fun, fun about these particular characters, but also what they're going through in terms of how they're,

[00:19:39] and they gotta, they gotta figure out themselves before they can be in any kind of relationship. Like, that's just the, that's the universal story. There is like, you shouldn't really get in a relationship when you haven't figured out yourself yet. Like really, really date yourself first. That's the, that's the advice. It's good. It's good. It's good life advice. Yeah. The true answer is I just love watching the different women of the enterprise breaks box hard. Cause I think it's funny. Sorry, Ethan. I'm so sorry. No, that's not the answer.

[00:20:09] It's everything I said before. I do think, I do think that the thing that we really do on this show was we lean into Spock as, as not the outside character, but the inside character. We don't, we don't, we don't think of him as the other, you know, the alien who, whose brain we don't understand. We think of him as one of us who, who thinks and feels like we do. And when it happens to him, when emotion happens to him, he struggles with it. And we are in it, you know, we're in his,

[00:20:39] we're inside of him, we're in his heart and his, and in his mind. And so it's more like, how can you, what can you put him through that gives him something to express? And how would he express it? I mean, the fun of the puppet episode, frankly, is very similar to the fun of the animated episode. It's very similar to the fun of the musical episode, which is there are specific genre reasons that emotion comes out in a flavor, you know, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the musical people's emotions,

[00:21:09] come out through song in this one. To me, the fun of this was like, you can do a straight up drama scene between a, a man and a puppet. And it will be funny no matter what. Correct. Just playing it real is kind of the best part. Don't act like it's a joke. Act like it's real. It is real. Yeah. Puppets have feelings. Yep. Well, speaking of which, I don't know if I've ever been more happy for a kiss on TV in my life. Please talk me through.

[00:21:39] Would you like to take this? I will. I, that has been the thing that I have wanted in the show more than anything. I wanted the, the, the, the, I wanted the Spock puppet kiss. I have chanted kiss twice. Watching star Trek. Once with Picard and crusher in the finale of TNG. And once with Spock and puppet to bring. That was the second card on the board. Henry just got a big note card and just was like, Spock and to bring puppet kiss. Yep. Yep. That was it.

[00:22:08] But did you get any pushback on that? Or, I mean, did you have to fight for it or was it just, we're doing this buckle up? Um, it, I will say that there were, yeah, there was some fighting for it. Uh, but like there was fights all along the way and fighting implies that like someone was angry or they pushed back. Like we, we just said, we just, again, I feel like when you do this kind of episode, you have to lean in and do it as deeply as you possibly can.

[00:22:37] Try to make the best version of it that you possibly can. And that was it. Part of it was, I was just like, I thought about the, the Muppet movie a lot and how the kiss, would work in that. And I really think it's an actor thing. You just have to say like, guys, lean in, lean into this. This is a real thing. You are like, we're going to show the scene where he kisses to praying and it's, and, and, and gets back together. And we're only going to feel that if you feel that. And Ethan just like lean into it. Literally.

[00:23:07] Ethan was so game for every single piece of this. He just, the commitment was insane. And just kudos to that man. Like it, we could not have asked for a better human to work with puppets. Like he was incredible. It was tremendously hard on him. He, he had, there were two or three weeks where he, it was like, Ethan and like four,

[00:23:36] and like 12 puppets. And, and that was his work, you know, not that our other actors did not come in and were involved. And like, you know, what we were trying to get them to, uh, um, we wanted the performance to represent them. So there ended up being a lot of prep work and a lot of post work on people's on people, what ultimately became ADR as well in order to make our actors performances present. You know what I mean? Like that,

[00:24:02] that was the extra kind of flavor that I think we really had to push on. So anyway, yeah. It reminds me of, uh, Ian McKellen on the set of the Hobbit where he was in a completely different set, just acting by himself while the doors are somewhere else. That is, that's kind of it. Probably a little bit of the same. Yeah. Yeah. You just got to keep them at that level. And I mean, everyone brought a lot, everyone brought everything. Yeah. Yeah. And for what it's worth, I mean, I think fighting in a creative endeavor implies like people care, people want it to be the best that, that, that they feel.

[00:24:32] So yeah, I never think of that as a, as a negative thing per se. Do, either of you have the script open by chance? I did. I had it open a second ago. You know, if you could read the stage direction for the kiss scene, I would not be angry. sure. Let me pull it up. Oh, let me see. Yes, I do have it. Uh, let's see. Uh, surprisingly to bring appreciates his Vulcan sass while we're a crew, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He touches her hand, a gesture of intimacy. Uh, and you, what do you,

[00:25:02] do you still wish to return to journey back to a life of logic? Spock very much. So, uh, little can make one grave order and logic much more than being, uh, surrounded by dot, dot, dot puppets. To Pring tilts her puppet head. Is he talking about her? But Spock tilts, uh, his as well. Maybe dot, dot, dot. It's a loaded beat. And then dot, dot, dot. They kiss all caps. A Vulcan puppet kiss. Uh, as they kiss,

[00:25:31] it becomes more passionate. They lean down out of frame. We take the hint camera pulls back, uh, giving them privacy, moving out through the window again. That's all caps at the end. I'm not going to watch that scene a little differently now. I wasn't sure if it was, uh, if they needed their privacy afterwards. Okay. Well, you know, that's the, you're not going to, you're not going to hang around for that scene. Classic romance scene.

[00:25:59] We all know what a camera panning to the window means. That's right. That's right. Thank you for that. Well, Henry, here we are again. Spock amok charades, four and a half Vulcans. And I would absolutely say this counts as the force. And you're a Vulcan body swapping series. Last season, you did explain why you enjoy writing Vulcan humor so much. So I guess my only question is, are we going to get the full set? Is there a fifth one in season five? You can't say,

[00:26:29] I know a Vulcan body swap written by Henry Alonzo Myers. This is what I will say. Season five is a completely different season from everything that we've had coming before it. All right. That's much I'll say. Okay. All right. I mean, I think so. If you go in thinking, I'm going to do the same thing. That's not what we're doing. All right. But if you go in wondering, is this going to feel like strange new worlds? It will.

[00:26:58] How's that? That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Wait, there's a season five. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Dropping it here. But I've enjoyed all of your Vulcan hijinks thus far, Henry. It's a very specific subgenre. It's been a delight. Now, was Scotty's competitive arc in this episode? Was that something you've kind of been working on before with him? Or did that just come about needing something to drive him in this episode? And that's what you landed on.

[00:27:27] I think it came from this episode. I think. I think it was this idea. And Henry, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, you know, he's trying to push himself a little bit as like an engineer and then trying to like break new barriers and see what he can do and stretch his legs. But I think the idea of, I mean, the idea of the rival and being competitive with the rival was definitely just for this episode. Okay. As a,

[00:27:56] if you push too hard and for the wrong reasons, you might end up as puppets. Oh. And Peleus. Peleus prodding and poking. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we were, the arc that we were talking about for him was Louis Scotty before he becomes the person we later know. And so he's not yet that person, but he is trying really hard to do his job well and to be received well for it. But as a, but as a,

[00:28:23] as a young person who is surrounded by people who are competitive and wants to be noticed, he wants to try some things that sometimes are maybe a little bit, you know, he's too big for his bridges. So that's why. So, I don't know. We, we, we really wanted to do a transporter accident. That was like a classic Star Trek. Yeah. That was baked in kind of from the beginning that this would be a transporter accident. Yes. Because we realized we hadn't done one really. True. Yeah. So, I mean, the whole time I was watching this,

[00:28:53] I was like, do I buy this? I'm like, yeah, this is like a step further than them turning into kids. Like this is, this is classic Star Trek. I buy this. Pretty much. That's the idea. That's the idea. Exactly. Where did the name Declan Wilder come from? Is that a, is there an Easter egg there? I believe, I mean, sure. Sure. Declan Wilder is a combo. I don't know where Declan came from. It was somebody else in the room. Maybe has a rival name. Declan.

[00:29:22] That sounds like a rival. I guess. I mean, if Henry doesn't mind, I'll, I'll do it. The, the name Wilder is a shout out to my good friend, Scotty. His first name is Scotty Wilder. There you are. Here you go. Your Star Trek, your shout out. But I thought it was really funny for my inside jokes that Scotty's rivals. First name really is Scotty. Anyway.

[00:29:52] He's really just competing with himself the whole time. He's also a huge Star Trek fan. He's a, he's, he's an, and he's a, and he's a friend from college. So I was like this. I don't know. Henry didn't stop me. Henry didn't stop me. No, no, I would. Why, why should I? No, I, I will say this as a TV writer. You very quickly run out of people that you know and are related to and, or friends with who you can name people and creatures and things for. Like you run out of them pretty fast. So every, everyone on the show gets to throw that in.

[00:30:22] Everyone does. Yeah. We really desperately want that to be the case. I was delighted that she had that, you know, Scotty's rival is Scotty. That's fun. Yep. I love it. I love it. Did you guys write the characters differently as, as puppets or did you leave that more to performance? No, we, we talked about the idea of puppets and, and, and Muppets and, and, and what that entails. And, and we did, I think try,

[00:30:52] I mean, definitely at the beginning, I think we went in with this effort that this sort of makes them more themselves. Like they're like a little bit more, a hyper version of themselves. Am I wrong, Henry? Like that was sort of the, the, the driving theme behind how we tackled, you know, Pike as a Muppet, Una as a Muppet, like what would they be like? There was also a, a core idea at the center of all of it,

[00:31:22] which is that all of these are the characters who can't do the things that the characters usually do. And whatever frustration and or challenges come out of that. You know what I mean? Like none of them can use their fingers. Like it's, it's hard for them to have a fight. None of them can like literally open the door. None of them can, you know, fire a phaser. It's, it just makes the whole thing much harder. And more like we, we, the, the best thing about it was just leaning into the puppet problem, which is when you watch the Muppets,

[00:31:52] you're watching like, for instance, the, the entire sequence that they did where the, where the Muppets are on bikes, a tremendously difficult sequence to shoot. We just sort of lead into the idea that they can't do any of the things that we want them to do. Meaning they, they can touch things, but it doesn't make a difference. They can, you know what I mean? Like that, that became the actual problem that they had to solve. But it also becomes the solution. Yeah. So. Yeah. That was the fun. It's like, okay, and they can't do what they normally do, but they can do other things. Right.

[00:32:22] Exactly. And then a lot of that I think was like, me and Dana and everyone else just diving into what is the, what is the funny puppet thing that you want to see them doing? You know? Well, speaking of things puppets can and can't do, I mean, I've got to ask how, how does, how do they get Pike back in the ship? The magic of commercial break? Yeah. Magic of commercial break. He just goes into the door. I mean,

[00:32:52] there's a, there's a, you know, he comes in through an airlock. That was what I would say, but they couldn't get out of the ready room. They actually could get out of the ready room, but you know, like we didn't solve that problem on, on screen because it was not something that was necessary. That's fair. Well, he was working on it. Well, John and Jesse, when I asked them that, they're like, well, there's, it's the same way Scotty got out from under the torpedo puppet. And I was like, no, there's, there's some logic there.

[00:33:22] I'll take it. I'll take it. Was the fact that they could literally get the stuffing knocked out of them. Was that also baked in from the beginning? Or is that kind of like an idea you came across? There was. Go ahead. Oh no, go ahead. No, you, I want to hear what you had to say. I think one of the, one of the first things, one of the first things we discussed that we might want to explore is this idea of,

[00:33:48] a very serious medical scene where there's a lot of like, like very, like the entire thing is a very intense surgery. And like, it's like, we're in the, like, we're trying to save a life, but it's about like stuffing the stuffing back in and like sewing. That was one of the first ideas we discussed. Um, and then we sort of found like ways to keep that idea alive. When Laon's arm pops off, it's classic.

[00:34:17] That was fun. We, we, we wanted to, we wanted to chop Pelley in half. That was another thing. That was on the, yeah, that was the third card on the board. Uh, very good. The Pelley puppet is, I mean, how did we go this long? 43 minutes without talking about the Pelley puppet. Stop looking at the Pelley puppet. Oh my God. I have a lot of great photos of Carol looking at the puppet and looking delighted. They kind of just, they, it's funny because they,

[00:34:46] they captured her hair perfectly. It doesn't, it isn't really anything like her hair. And yet it's exactly like her hair. Exactly. You know, it just feels like, it's magic. Feels like, feels like her. That's why it's, you know, it's a perfect amalgamation of, you know, who she is. 100%. 100%. I also, I enjoyed like the, just the right amount of kind of medical, biological talk of like what is happening to us. Like the two lines of that. I'm like, I wanted this, but I didn't want any more of this.

[00:35:15] Like this is the perfect amount to get us there. There's also like a, the screen, the scanner that is showing like the inside of the puppet. It was, that was a delight to do. That was, oh my God. That was the fourth card on the board. That was like, we got, we got to see a puppet X-ray. Yep. We wanted to do it real. Like what would this really look like? Cause there's that great. I mean, just to like talk a little bit about like the, the things that we thought about and talked about and like other puppet

[00:35:45] like we, you know, we watched every other show that has done a puppet episode and like one of the, one of the great moments in the scrubs puppet. Episode is where they do the X-ray. And it's like, I found the problem with the hand. It's like, we didn't want to go that far, but it's like, what would be the real Star Trek version of the puppet body scan? Like, it's such a Star Trek thing, but now we have this puppet and it's real, it's a real puppet on board. So what does it look like? Well,

[00:36:14] Admiral April has a question about that, right? Like, does he say something like, what does that mean? Your puppets? Like, are you puppets or are you puppets puppets? Like, is there someone controlling you? Right. Like he doesn't understand. Yeah. He's basically the audience. Yes. He is the audience asking how this works. Correct. So I have come to learn that every outrageous comedy episode of strange new worlds at one point is going to break my heart. I'm going to have my heartstrings pulled and plucked and the tearjerker moment.

[00:36:43] And this one came for me when the crew is floating in the majesty of space and they're able to do that. And I mean, I really, I got, I welled up to that and it was great when you're tackling these episodes. Is that like, I guess how much do you pre-plan those heartfelt moments and how much do you kind of just let them come to be? I mean, I have a standard answer to this, but maybe you have a better personal one. No, I want Henry's answer. My, my standard answer is usually like, like, this is a thing that I look back and,

[00:37:12] and pull from many years on Ugly Betty where like it's, we, we said that the show was, was four acts of jokes and two acts of crying. You know what I mean? Because I think that there's a sort of a point right around 30 minutes into a hour long show where you kind of lose people. Unless you get to the real. And so part of it is, that's just a story breaking structural notion. Meaning like, you can tell jokes for a while, but at some point,

[00:37:41] if you don't get to the gut of why you are telling these jokes and what the jokes are about and what you are covering and why people have the same feelings that they are expressing, then the, then the show has no, in my mind, the show has no, no heart. So a lot of it was just like, this is a crazy episode, but if it doesn't get to an emotional moment of reality, then why are we doing it? Yeah.

[00:38:10] And I agree 100%. And Henry has said that since day one on the show. And it's my, one of my favorite things about this show. And it's true. It's like, if there's not something real, if there's not a real emotion to the, if the characters don't have something real behind everything, it's just, yeah, it's why are you telling this story? This particular moment. And I'm so glad that you had that reaction. Because when we talked about it, I, I really like,

[00:38:40] I felt like, I felt a little bit like Una, like with this episode of like, like, and, and this is one of the things that's so beautiful about this particular show, because there is so much wonder in strange new, and in the literal strange new worlds, there's, there's fear and there's action. And there's cool science, but there's also this incredible sense of wonder. And it was like,

[00:39:06] if you're doing a puppet episode to have the, the puppets swim, the puppet float, like to be able to have the puppets be out there, having these characters who say, we are in a physical state where we will never be like this again. And we can do a thing that we will never be able to experience again. We are the characters. We are the type of people. We're explorers. That is what Star Trek does. It explores.

[00:39:35] So to have them go out there and do this and enjoy this, spend the entire episode. How do we get out of this? How do we save ourselves? How do we like not be these, these puppets anymore? And then to tag it with, but there's also something beautiful about being puppets. And we want to enjoy one last moment before it goes away. And it's, you know, we, we, when I'm watching it as an audience member and not just the, right around the show is I want to enjoy it. One last moment before it ends. This is it.

[00:40:05] This is the puppet episode. This, this is, this is where it ends. And I'm right there with them. Probably not going to get it again. My favorite thing in that is that we walk right up to the edge of the line of them admitting that all of this is like, absolutely doesn't make any sense. But like, that's the beauty. That's also the beauty of the Pelea character. When you give her that, those explanations of like, how are we even talking to each other? It doesn't even make any, how can we hear each other? And it's true. It's puppets. Like that's like, there's,

[00:40:35] there is logic and there is physics and there is science to it. But it's sometimes you want to just be Una. And there's something you really want to do. There are, there are things in the universe that are so beyond our comprehension that they appeared like magic. So that was the approach to it essentially. Yes. And I, I talked with Jordan about this too, but I love how in one single shot you encapsulate both the, the most absurd with the kiss with this beautiful shot of them swimming outside. And like,

[00:41:04] it's one shot and that's all right there. That's, that's the episode. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yes. Very much. Very much. Now at the end, we learn, maybe this was all a Vulcan anxiety dream. Can we talk about, about that? Because Jordan, spoiler alert, also seems to think maybe there's some inception like wiggle room here with the ending. What? I don't know. Does that top fall or does that top not fall? No one knows.

[00:41:32] So that puppet start talking to us or is little Ricky going to open his mouth and spin his head around? If it makes you feel better to imagine that maybe this isn't real, that's fine. But I think that we, we really try to leave it open. Okay. Was there a lot of conversation about that? Like, do we make it a dream? Do we not? Do we leave it ambiguous? I'm going to say maybe and leave it at that. I guess if there's one question you can be ambiguous about,

[00:42:02] I mean, having watched it twice, once the first time and assuming it was real again, I bought into it and I loved all the character arcs and everything. So it worked for me there. And then the second time I was like, okay, Vulcan, Vulcan dream. It was all a dream. Let's see. And I was kind of surprised. Like it really works through that lens as well. Like just illustrates what is, what Spock is going through with everything, with the breakup, what we talked about, with everything else happening to him. It also works really well that way. So I, it was a little bit of a magic trick.

[00:42:31] I mean, just my, my big thing was, it's the kind of thing that Dana and I love. We're going to love it no matter what we're going to do as good a version of it as possible. So that people who are skeptical about the ability to do it well, will reluctantly watch it and say, okay, fine. You guys did a great job at that thing. It may not be my thing that those are, I want you want to win over everybody in that, in that regard. You know what I mean? That's fair. And I think appreciated. Yeah. Yep. Well,

[00:43:00] we've come to the part watch. I mean, I mean, let me ask you guys, cause there's a lot in this episode. Is there anything I haven't asked you, you feel is worth mentioning anything you were dying to talk about with this episode? I have so many photos of everyone with their puppets, which was a delight. I mean, the thing that I think was really interesting and that probably you won't see on screen was look, you know, when we did a, we do a table read on every episode and it's usually kind of like, a test run of everyone.

[00:43:28] And we had the puppeteers there working with the puppets. They got to get a sense of the actors and the actors performances. The actors got to try their version of it. There was a whole lot of that. And then we were on the day, the actors could sometimes be there and sometimes they couldn't, but the puppeteers were trying very hard to do their version of what the actors had done. And so then there became, they ended up being this whole other version of this,

[00:43:56] where we then had the actors step in at first, sometimes to try to copy what they thought was someone copying them. But then what we really had to spend a lot of time working on was no, no, no, no, you are the actor. We want your performance, bring us your performance. And so like there was just, there was so much work in post just to keep our characters alive and present in the puppets playing them.

[00:44:27] And I think it was really interesting as a, as a, both as a social experiment and as something to, to try on a show. It's like, you have asked people who are normal performers to completely lose anything they can do with their face and their body. So it's all through what they say and how they say it. And so a lot of it was really interesting to try. That was an extra level of fun that I did not, I don't want to say I didn't anticipate, but it ended up, you know,

[00:44:54] it just was one of those things where like six months of prep, six months of post, a lot of stuff on this one. Yeah. Yeah. I think this table read with all of the, I had, I had forgotten that until you mentioned it, Henry, with all of the players there to get all the actors, all the puppeteers, like everybody was there, was one of the most fun table reads I think we've ever had. Like I now, it was so amazing to just for the first time here,

[00:45:23] the actors like sort of bring their puppet selves in to the script. And the puppeteers were like doing it like along a wall, like with that, it was so cool. And it was so much fun. It was a delight. It was a performance. And it was a performance in itself. Like, like I wish that it was like filmed somewhere. It was amazing. Well, I'd be fascinated to hear like an audio track with just the onset audio on the DVD. That would be interesting to hear.

[00:45:52] What was interesting was that some of them got really, really good. The woman who was playing Pelia did, did a really good Pelia. And Carol was like, Carol was very like, Oh my God, they're doing a great job. That sounds like cool. But Carol was very, but Carol was also very invested. Like, I mean, she was, I mean, they all, they all were, but like she was there and she was like, actually like, you know, this is, this is maybe how I would handle it. And like, that was, it was like a great partnership. Like that was, it was, it was this great, it had so many layers.

[00:46:21] Like there were so many layers to making this episode. It was, it was really fun. Amazing. Amazing. Well, I mean, like I said, I've seen it twice and gotten two totally different vibes from it both times. So I can't wait to keep watching it and dig into those layers more. the goal was really to write something that was going to be fun to watch for as long as possible. I, you know, I can tell you we've watched that. I, I've watched this more times than I can count for work reasons. But, you know, I had this, I had the same reaction to the musical when we saw it,

[00:46:51] which was just like, Oh, this is fun to just keep watching. Um, make a thing that people will want to watch and they'll want to watch for as long time as possible. And they won't look back and say, they won't think that we kind of half-assed it. That's really all I care about. Definitely not. That, that comes through with all these interviews is no one is half-assing it. Well, we've come to the point where I must ask you both to, uh, choose from all your babies and pick your favorite line from the episode.

[00:47:22] I remember this from last time I was caught up with, every time. Don't want to break tradition, Tina. Um, let me see. What was the, gosh, I'm looking back. I have the, I have the script right in front of me. Um, it's funny. Cause I realized two of them are about this. I have like three favorite lines, but anything Pelley is as also, uh, I have one from her, which is Henry. It's when she says pandemonium wins. Pandemonium wins.

[00:47:52] My, my favorite Pelley line is, uh, it's kind of her whole monologue, but it's not just, it's not just the line. It's the way the puppet is like standing on the, on the table. And she's like, you know, five minutes ago, I was cutting half, but, uh, the way the, the line, and you know, who else is not dead? Is it gets me every time. I love it so much. And I also love, uh,

[00:48:20] Ortega's is come closer to my fist, which I think is a Henry Alonzo Myers special. Thanks. Invenga being the one with the knitting needles who causes, the most damage of anyone. Oh, just, that was the look on his face. Yeah. It's once the puppets remember that they're Starfleet officers who have amazing skills. They just need to learn how to use them as puppets.

[00:48:49] Like that's all they need. They just, they're like, Oh, right. We know how to do this. That was the shot that Jordan came up with where it was like, it was like, she did it like a Kung Fu movie. She did it like, like a Western. It's this like push into this dangerous look. And then he leaps and stabs like that. I mean, come on. That was all of those things are super fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's also like,

[00:49:19] there's a super cut of Troll somewhere, somewhere. Cause I remember just like reacting to the puppets that has some of the best, like improv lines I've ever seen in my life. They're so funny. Oh man. Good. This DVD has got to be loaded guys. I mean, we can't, we we've talked to other writers too, about why bring to bring back this season. And I'm so glad we did, but we, I mean, we should mention like, she is amazing in this as well. Gia is incredible.

[00:49:48] And the character here works so perfectly. It was, I mean, was it always going to be to bring in this and turning her into a puppet? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Amazing. Can I, can I give a shout out again, when we were talking about costumes, we were talking about Leo rides to prings. Puppet dress is one of the best costumes I've ever. I mean, I, I, I have to stop saying I've ever seen in my life, but like, it's like that tiny, like detailed,

[00:50:16] perfect puppet dress is Bernadette is just outdid herself with that little dress. Like, you know, every time she's going to knock it out of the park and you're still stunned every time. I know. I know. It was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, I mean, and it was a very interesting, very different. And we had Gia back for a couple episodes this season and it could not, could not have been more different than what she did. In the, in the, the, the horror episode. She was right. Right. I mean, sort of, but at the same time, both episodes, I'm like, yeah,

[00:50:46] spot get with her. You guys are great together. She's amazing. I'm rude. I'm a, I'm a, to bring Spock. Everybody has to grow before they end up in the relationship. They're supposed to be in, but they also grow because of the relationships they've been in. That's exactly right. It's a vicious cycle. It's a lot that eats its own tail. Never not going to use that joke. Well, thank you both so much. Again, amazing episode. Amazing talking to you guys tune in tomorrow. Amazing conversation with Jordan canning as well.

[00:51:16] And yeah, she's going to, she's going to, I mean, look, this is the kind of thing where like, you'd get there early and Jordan would already be there. You'd leave late. And Jordan was still staying with stuff to do. Like there, Jordan, you know, she, she, she really bled for the, for the, for the, for the specific episode. Like she really just like put in all her all. So absolutely. Yeah. We could not have done it without her. It would not have been half the episode. It was. And, and, you know, she,

[00:51:44] she really might not have been an episode. She, she, it is. She is at the, the heart and center of all of this one. 100%. Tune in tomorrow. And, You, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,