Strange New WORDS - "Like Chronitons Through the Hourglass" with Bill Wolkoff and Dana Horgan

[00:00:00] This is Bill Wolkoff and Dana Horgan, and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words, the podcast that needs more counseling than Captain Pike. Yup. Is this thing on? Hello, hello.

[00:00:37] Welcome to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words, the series where we find out just how much fun it is to keep alive all the cliches most writers would have to delete, and how fun it is to write Ethan Peck smolders even more. But first, let me introduce my co-hosts. The man who has no less than seven people, some older than him, claim him as their long lost father at Star Trek Las Vegas, host of Green Shirt and New Beast Trek, Cameron Harrison.

[00:01:04] The results are conclusive. The podcast host is you, John Boulds! And unfortunately, Jesse did slip into a coma just before we started recording this episode, so he could not be here with us tonight. Hopefully he'll wake up at a very convenient moment. But previously, on Open Pike Night, our guests shared their love for noir and neutrinos. But in tonight's stunning reveal, they'll share they also write great soap operas.

[00:01:33] It's Dana Horgan and Bill Wolkoff. Hello. Hello. Thanks for coming back with us, guys. Thank you for having us on. So let's get into it. What was the origin story for a soap opera episode? To be perfectly frank, it was economic. We needed to do something that could be shot a little quicker than we normally shoot for less money. And we decided to embrace the soap opera format.

[00:02:03] Like the crew of the Enterprise, who's often faced with a challenge and they have to work around it. Like we were sort of faced with a challenge and we always take a challenge as an opportunity. And this was an opportunity to do a genre we had never done before. Also, I think Bill and tell me if I'm wrong, like where it was falling in the season, it was really also a chance to do some emotional arcing.

[00:02:29] And at this point in the season, what better, what better genre to do that with them than soap opera? Yeah. And is that where the decision came from to address Pike's time in the Battelle universe timeline? Like, was that something you knew you were going to address when you wrote episode 10 of season three or? No, no. Okay. When we wrote episode 10 of season three, we did not know that we would be revisiting that time in a way as big as it.

[00:02:57] We knew that that would, we never intended for those emotions and that experience that he had at the end of season three to go into a vacuum. Like that was not in a vacuum. Right. We don't, we don't, we don't love to do that. We like to take our characters' emotions and keep them throughout the season. And sometimes it's not the very next episode, like we are episodic, but we don't like to pretend like those go away and it never happened. Right. So we knew he would process this in some way.

[00:03:25] We just didn't know in what form and what story and what episode and how much it would come back. Yeah. And if I remember, I mean, when we were first getting into this episode, we wanted to have all of the soap opera tropes when they're trapped in the soap opera. And one of the tropes is surprise daughter. And we were not, I mean, if I remember correctly, we weren't thinking of episode 10 from season three until Dana, you said, wait a minute.

[00:03:55] He actually does have, I think it was you. Oh, it was me? I do think it was you. Like he does have a daughter that is a surprise to everybody else. I vaguely remember wanting him to have a surprise wife. I'm your wife. Anyway, was there ever any thought of bringing Patel back in some way, maybe in this episode? No, no, I think that was too, that was, I think, too loaded.

[00:04:20] And also we felt like we had really service that their story and told their story together. But no, I don't think we, we ever entertained that. Did we, did we both? No, no, because we, we see him dealing with that multiple times. And he talks about, he talks about it in, I believe he talks about it in Valles Marineris. Mm-hmm . But what he never talks about, what he's, you know, I mean, what is the point of the episode,

[00:04:48] frankly, is the fact that he is grieving a daughter that he had a whole lifetime with. And he's just, he is so out of touch with what's going on inside of him because of the rigors of his job that he's not aware that he needs to, to work through that. Yeah. And he felt like this was a much better, you know, area to explore with him to, you know, not only show him grieving that,

[00:05:13] but also really get into who, who Pike is and how he needs to grow as both a captain and a human. Mm-hmm . Yeah. Kind of to that point, I couldn't help but watch this episode and think a lot of the inner light. I feel like this is a spiritual sequel to that episode, just as much as it is to 310. Absolutely. It sounds like you thought that too. Yeah. No, we, we talked about that a lot.

[00:05:36] I mean, just those ideas of things that we experience in dreams, memories, things like that. But when you move on from them, they're, they're as real as things that happened to you and what Picard went through in that episode and what Pike went through in 310 and how they were similar and how you can say, sure. Yeah, that never happened, but that, that doesn't, that doesn't change the reality of how it affected you. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .

[00:06:01] And, and how you are as a person, especially Pike is kind of like, no, I'm a, I'm a rational person. I, I live in reality. That wasn't real. So I'm just going to move on where if you, as Bill was saying, like you do that, if you repress that, it, it, it, it, it, it, eventually you, you have, you have to process it. Mm-hmm . But yeah, I mean, I love the inner light. It's, it's one of my favorites and we, I mean, Bill, please jump it.

[00:06:26] Like I know we talked about it a lot in discussing this episode and wanting it to be a sort of spiritual seat, not sequel. It's not a sequel, but it, to a, a sister, a sister episode to it. Hmm. I mean, speaking to the success of this episode, I, the inner light is one of the great TNG episodes of all time. Absolutely. I think this episode makes it better because, you know, at some point, even though we never saw it in TNG, Picard had to go through the same thing Pike does in this episode. And, and this episode lets me kind of project that onto his experience as well.

[00:06:56] Yeah. Yeah. And I'll just say, I love the inner light. It's one of the episodes that made me realize that not only was next generation, you know, great Star Trek, but just great, how great television could be. I, I. Yeah. It is one of the, like the most powerful episodes of television. And, and, and that is, you know, it's when you set out to do an episode like this, you never say like, Oh, we're going to like try to redo it and do it beat for beat.

[00:07:25] But how can we be inspired by this thing that like clearly is, is so ingrained in us as writers and, and, and viewers and, and people who love Star Trek. That episode is one of the episodes of, of next gen that made me want to write for television. Okay. So it was exciting to get to riff off of that and hopefully make it our own for like chronitons. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:49] And not just the inner light, but this episode could be said to be kind of the impetus for the entire overarching Q storyline and TNG. Like this kicks off the Q's interest in human beings. When you're lining up all your big genre swing episodes, like you knew you wanted to bring Q back in. And was there deliberation of which episode Q was going to be in or was it always going to be this one? Quick editor's note. Quick editor's note.

[00:08:16] John and I are going to continuously conflate Q and Trelane from here on out. And I take full responsibility. I was transcribing the questions to the outline and accidentally put Q when I meant Trelane. Bill and Dana picked up on what we were trying to ask and rolled with it like professionals and answer the question without calling us out on our very shameful Trek fan slip. Carry on. I can see like when you have all the different, the crazy genres you want to do, you're like, which one is Q going to be responsible for?

[00:08:45] Which one do we not have to worry about a scientific explanation for? Yeah. Uh, this, I mean, this is a reordering of reality that does seem in line with what you need. You need someone as powerful as somebody from the Q continuum to be able to do that. And we already have, uh, Reese is a part of our, of our show and we were very eager to get to work with him again.

[00:09:10] So yeah, it just became natural that, that he would be behind why they're all trapped in this reality. Yeah. And the idea I think of the, the observation of humanity, like heightening it to be like, we're going to explore. I would like to observe human emotions. Let me create a scenario in which that is all turned up to 11. I think just felt like a natural fit. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

[00:09:37] There was a point though, where he was talking to me, like, I've been studying human art forms and I was like, oh, is, is Q going to have been responsible for all the genre swings this, this season? Or is, was he actually, was that ever a consideration or would that just be too much Q? No, I think this, this, this was his, this was his one and only. Okay. Yeah. Viewers have been like, we've all been saying, Hey, where's the ship's counselor? Like this crew really needs a counselor.

[00:10:03] Um, especially after last season with Pike and Battelle, how did you approach bringing the character in? Again, it's, it's soap operas are just naturally lend itself to having a psychiatrist. Mm hmm. That was just an opportunity to get an icon from the soap opera world to be a part of our, our universe. And what better way to actually introduce Dr. Chivers, but through the, through the soap opera reality. Yeah.

[00:10:31] And it also, I mean, just to go back to like sort of a little bit what we talked about in the beginning of the, like, how do you use the trope for the needs that you have? Like the idea of the therapist tropes in any genre, not just soap operas inevitably means you do scenes in one location. Mm hmm. And then that was a little bit like, it allowed us to explore emotions in a trope that was like, you know, ready, ready made for it.

[00:11:00] But also just the idea of getting to have Dr. Marlena Evans as our ship's counselor was, I mean, it was a dream come true. It was amazing to get to do that. Yes. And Deidre Hall is as wonderful and just, just a shining light of a human being as you could possibly want. She made every day that she was on set just better, just from her, from her presence.

[00:11:28] So it was, it was great, great, great having her. We are so lucky. We are so lucky and so blessed that she, that she did this with us. Dream come true. Yeah. Dream come true. Yeah. Was bringing someone like her, soap royalty like her on from the beginning? Did you, when you thought of Chivers, did you think of casting someone like that or? Yes. Yes. That was, that was the intention of that character was to really bring the genre in with that character and write it.

[00:11:55] But I mean, also as, as you pointed out, like the ship needs a counselor. Like we, we didn't have one and we wanted to set up this idea that like, she's actually not a part of the game. Like she is the counselor on the ship, but we still wanted to have that, that wonderful casting. Yeah. Did you actually write in there, give her the best damn doctor's uniform Star Trek has ever seen? I wish we had. Or did Bernadette just do that? Cause holy cow. Wow. It is the best.

[00:12:22] I remember seeing that for the first time and I was just like, Oh, Oh my God. We need just like a fleet of counselors in these out. Like this is incredible. It was in. Yeah. Like how do you dress royalty like that? That's how you dress royalty. If they serve on the ship. Well, you have this, I mean, she just walks into the room like a queen, like the presence is so insane.

[00:12:45] Honestly, if all of the things that we have had to sit down for a year and not tell anybody about it's Dr. Chivers is a Starfleet uniform for me personally. Oh, I'm sure. It was the one thing that I'm like, I gotta, you know, I can't wait until when our episode airs, I'm going to have to send out some photos of you and I, Dana with Deidre in that outfit. I think this episode is going to expose just like, I'm not a soap opera person. I don't know.

[00:13:12] I've maybe seen 10 hours of soap opera my entire life. We're going to find out a lot about fans of Star Trek and be like, Oh, okay. There's a big overlap here apparently. So, yeah. Well, to that point, we said the same thing to Anna. Like, I, yeah, I didn't know Deidre Hall, but as soon as you see her on screen, like, you know, she's someone, you know, she's that she has a presence for sure.

[00:13:35] So viewers have also been asking for, and you have finally given us Cybock sort of, is there any way you're able to tell us if this is all the Cybock we're getting in strange new worlds or what do you want to say about Cybock? I don't think we could say anything about that beyond, beyond this, beyond this episode. Okay. Yeah. But we wanted to, in this episode, deliver Cybock in a meaningful way. I, I, I, I even want to backtrack slightly.

[00:14:04] Like Dana and I, and I think the whole staff actually, we spent a day on the set of Young and the Restless. Oh yes. Yeah. To really understand not only how soap operas are made, uh, just from a practical standpoint and what we would have to do to film a soap opera on our, on our stages in Toronto, but also to understand like what goes into an episode of a soap opera.

[00:14:30] It was one of the, the staff directors on Young and the Restless, Owen Renfro got the EPs of the show to invite us on and watching them was, was, I mean, it's, it's astonishing by the way. They, they shoot an episode at a half a day. Like it's, it's before, like before 3 PM. The number of pages they shoot is, what was it, Bill? It's, it's like 90, 70 pages, 90 pages, something like that. It's crazy. Yeah. In a day.

[00:14:59] And they all have it memorized and they all have it. Like it's insane. Like these are magicians. How many pages does Strange New World shoot a day? Uh, like eight is an ambitious thing. So a 10th. Okay. Yeah. So after we spent that day doing that, we realized that we definitely wanted to do an evil twin brother trope. And it just felt like the best way to bring Cybok into the show in a meaningful manner.

[00:15:30] And also let Ethan show another side of, of his, you know, amazing acting spectrum that he brings and also show frankly more of Ethan. I'm sure many fans are going to thank you for that. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leather pants. I was like, all right. It was such a good choice. So yeah, it was, it was the perfect way to play with Cybok in this episode. Yeah. And Ethan knocked it out of the park. Oh man. Cam, have you seen 409 yet? I have not.

[00:16:00] Fine. I won't. I'm not sure anything. Anyway. What was it like balancing like that lighthearted, almost, I'm not trying to disrespect soap opera here, but I mean, it is a little bit campy. Like, like that is part of what makes it an opera. That's, that's what it is. What was it like balancing that mechanic of a soap opera with moving almost every crew member's emotional storyline forward, like in really deep ways.

[00:16:24] To answer that, I'm going to quote one of our fearless leaders, Henry Alonso Myers, where you can't do these kinds of genres without thriving true emotion. And as he likes to say, it's three acts of not jokes in this sense, but like it's three acts of lighter or campier or whatever the genre is. And then one act of real emotion. It's the same. It was the same guiding light that we, I did not mean to say guiding light, but I did.

[00:16:53] It's the same guidepost that we had in the musical. It's, this is heightened. It's, you can say campy, but I think we took it as, is heightened. It's going to be more heightened than our reality that we normally deal with. But at a certain point it needs to not turn. This one was a little bit more like slowly understanding that you have been living in real emotions this whole time. It's the, it starts out as like a shock.

[00:17:22] It starts out as what's going at your pike. What's going on? This is crazy. And then by the end of the third, the fourth acts, you're like, oh, oh, this actually was reflective of what all of these crew members have been going through. And that was the trick. That was the, that was the magic. That is, that is Henry's magic trick for these episodes. I was remembering him saying that about the, the puppet episode, the three acts of laughs and one act of tears or something.

[00:17:48] And I mean, it was just like, it's so that with this episode, like I was laughing, I was clapping at some of the jokes, even though I'm just watching it alone, not in the theater. And then like, yeah, the moment the last act hit on, it was just like, I was an emotional mess. So, I mean, well done at executing that, that philosophy. Thank you. Now you talked about being on the sets of a soap opera to learn how to shoot it on your sets. And we talked to Anna and learned that like you did shoot this multi-camera. You actually did it.

[00:18:17] Can you talk about like why it was important to shoot it that way and not kind of just cheat it with a single camera? We wanted it to look like a soap opera. Forget the, you know, what I said earlier. I mean, it's true. There was motivated by economics, but we also wanted to do this like a soap opera. And have it be a love letter to soap operas in every sense. So this episode, I think we shot 12 to 15 pages a day, which is a lot.

[00:18:45] And credit to the great, great, great, great, great Anna DeCosa for doing that. Who, this was her first Star Trek episode. And I'm so proud and so honored to get to have seen what she did with it. And a credit to the cast who rose to that challenge and were able to commit to lines more than they normally have to because there is a lot more talking in this episode. None of them balked at that challenge. And yeah, we didn't shoot 90 pages a day.

[00:19:15] But for us, shooting that many pages a day, you know, is a lot. And it's, you know, credit to the crew to be able to pivot and adjust to moving that quickly to get that much out each day. Yeah. So what we learned about soap operas, despite having, you know, watched them for many years, is it really plays. Like it's really theater. So like for the actors too, as Bill said, like rise to the challenge. Like it was amazing.

[00:19:42] But also as Bill was saying, like the crew, like that's not how we normally shoot. It was a little bit like doing the musical. It's like we're going to shoot differently or the documentary. And Anna really just having that experience of both three camera and single camera and just having such a clear way of leading this process and helping people understand like how the scenes are going to move.

[00:20:10] Like how just the company is going to move was, again, it was something we had never done. And it was just gave such a great challenge and everybody was fantastic. Like, again, we work with superstars, cast, crew, everything. And they nailed it. They nailed it. We even brought in a technical director, which single camera shows never use. Carl Loughton was his name. Very experienced. He's done tons and tons of multicam.

[00:20:39] So he's on like this headset talking to all the camera people saying, okay, move in here, push in there, get that. And like Glenn Keenan, our DP and his crew were, you know, they're working in an entirely different way. Like, oh, my God, we get that. We don't go back and get that. We have to get that now. But then you wind up getting three times as much footage to play with doing it. And it was wild getting to see that. See our crew rise to the occasion that way. I think everybody really enjoyed that challenge. Hats off to our Toronto folks.

[00:21:08] Sounds fun. Yeah. Yeah. And with all that extra footage and all those extra shots, we did hear that there were a number of scenes and subplots that got dropped due to time from the final cut. Can you guys talk about choosing what to keep? And do you want to share any of your favorite darlings you had to leave on the floor? I will share a favorite darling because I think it was a Mr. Bill Wolkopf special and it was hilarious and awesome.

[00:21:32] There's a deleted scene while in the therapy session where Pike leans in to being in a soap opera. And he like tells this crazy monologue story of how this is all possible. And it was so hilarious and so fun. And I think it just it was just the timing wise. It just didn't it didn't. We I mean, it's just again, we really should be allowed to make two hour movies here. I think I've said that before. I'm going to say it again.

[00:22:01] I really wish we were allowed to do two hours for these things. But when we were filming it, I was dying. It was amazing. I think the cut works better without it. But I miss it in my heart. And it will always live on in my heart. That scene. The one that I would mention is and again, it's the same thing. Like we do have roughly 50 ish minute format that that we try to stick to.

[00:22:21] And there was a one final scene between Cybok and on before he goes under the knife in the surgery where he asks on to share her pain with him. And she does. And it became a sex scene like they don't it's clothed, but it got hot and heavy. And when she shared her pain with him, they it was like, whoa, can we do this on TV? But they have their clothes on. So, yeah, it's fine. Streaming show, baby.

[00:22:50] But it feels like we shouldn't be able to do it on TV. Their dance scenes are PG-13 at least. So I can imagine what a mind meld would be. Yeah, exactly. Wow. A hundred percent. Star Trek V, The Inner Light, the entire Q continuum plotline. And I mean, did you guys like come into this being like, let's just reference everything about Star Trek or like, did that all come up or? I'm just going to say, and I hope fans don't come at me with pitchforks for this.

[00:23:18] Star Trek V is better than people think it is. I agree with that. Yes. The Cybok story in Star Trek V is beautiful. I mean, I said when we were pitching it that I wanted to really honor who Cybok is in Star Trek V. And though this is something that Trelane has created, really play it as something very real, that this is what Cybok would be like at this point in his history.

[00:23:44] When you look at Star Trek V and he takes people's pain away from them, there is an intimacy to it. But it's Lawrence Luckinville. He's a little bit older. He's, you know, here we've got very, very young and soap opera hot, Ethan Peck. So it really did feel like a seduction. And the way I would argue that it is in Star Trek V. And thankfully, Dana, you agree. You were, you supported me on this and we got that. Yeah, 100%.

[00:24:11] Bill said, hey, look, I know we've spent four seasons not talking about Cybok. We had a whole joke about we don't talk about Cybok. He's like, but got a pitch. It was a good pitch. As somebody who, yeah, I only saw Star Trek V within the last five years. I had seen four and six plenty of times before that. I watched it. I was like, this is not as bad as everybody has made it sound. There are parts of this movie that rule. Like, yeah. Three fourths of a great movie.

[00:24:40] Maybe even four fifths of a great movie. It absolutely is. I'm like, yeah. Just even the opening was like, this is gorgeous. Everybody kept saying how bad this movie is. This already has me hooked. So I'm glad you brought this in because it does. It makes it better. It makes it more whole. It's like, oh, so this was Cybok. Even if this is a, you know, Trelane Q thing. Like we get to see more Cybok. Spock's idea of him. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, speaking of pitches, the other things that, well, weren't really cut out, but we

[00:25:08] have the alternate opening and the, at least one commercial that got moved to, uh, to the credits. Like why not include those within? I, I don't know. I don't know. We don't know. Oh, okay. But we had a lot of fun with the commercials. Sorry. I'm glad we got to see them. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. They were, they were a lot of Bill's babies. What other commercials were there then? Oh yeah.

[00:25:37] We had a shaky box. We had, uh, he, a ball that looked like a planet. Is it a planet? He was confused. It was all like human items that he didn't understand and was giving his, his version of what they were and trying to sell them. Oh, nice. And we, we did a bunch of them. But there is one we, we didn't get to do Bill. Should we, should we mourn the one we didn't get to do? Yes. Please.

[00:26:03] We, we very much from the beginning of the idea of the commercial breaks. We really wanted a Vita Vita Vegemen. Now would you go ahead, please? It's so tasty too. Oh, it's so tasty too. Like we really, we wanted to clear it. We wanted to do it. I, I, I don't know how far we got with it. We were like, it's, I mean, the, the, the, the, Lucille Ball and Star Trek.

[00:26:30] And it was just, it was like right there, but, but we never, we didn't do it. We, no, we, we, wait, Dana, we did shoot one. Did we do it? We shot one. Did we shoot one? Yes. Where Reese is trying to pronounce, you know. He did. Yes. He did. I think that's okay. So sorry. I, we did shoot it and then it didn't make it. And that was sad. We need to find a disgruntled editor who is willing to share all these with the world.

[00:27:00] So it kind of comes to one of the ultimate questions. Why isn't Pike affected? Why is he breaking Trelane's little class project here? It's because he's so repressed. He, he is not, he, he spends all of his time empathizing with everybody else and he won't, he, he can't shine that, that insight on him, on himself.

[00:27:22] And it's, it's so set in that even an extra dimensional beings, godlike powers are not strong

[00:27:59] enough to bring him into it. He's got a lot of moments throughout the series. But usually he's either like Captain Pike or he's playing some wacky version. And here it's so much fun to just see him on his back foot. And like how, how fun was that writing? Did you kind of work with him to discover that part of Pike? Yeah. No, I mean, I think, and one of the reasons Anson is the best is he does have all of these levels to him.

[00:28:24] And I mean, I got the, the man is so good at comedy, like so good at comedy. It was, it was fun to, I mean, it's always fun to write him the like crazy stuff. And I know you mentioned 409, which is a little tease, little tease. I'm just thinking of the shot of walking down the hall. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Oh, this is so good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:53] But I think it was really fun to, to watch him access it like, or at least try to write to a different level where he is. He's the straight man. He's acknowledging the crazy. Like he, he is what, he's what we usually do to Spock. And it was fun to, to kind of play the reverse of that, but also knowing that we were going to drive to that super emotional level and we were going to let that just, just roll. It was, I mean, it was a lot of fun to write. Yeah.

[00:29:24] I, I, I don't think it's overstepping a boundary to even mention that Anson's second daughter was born right before we shot this episode. And, and it's an episode about grieving the loss of a daughter. And so it may, I mean, emotions are always high when you're a parent and you've just had a child. So, uh, and we're talking like it was days. She was born like days before we started shooting this. And because he's just an amazing artist that I am always in awe of and so honored that,

[00:29:53] that I've gotten to work with. He brought that to, you know, the whole episode and especially to the last scene with Deirdre, Dr. Chivers after he's back in reality. And, um, you know, Hathoth Anson. Yeah. He deserves a little, little gold for this one, I think. Well, Bill, I mean, that leads me to my next question, which is, I know you are both parents also. Do you think you could have written this episode the same way before you had kids?

[00:30:22] Because I know I would not have watched it the same way. My, my cheeks would not have been as wet at the end of this episode before I had kids. I don't think. I mean, I want to credit Dana. Dana, you wrote the scenes with, with Juliet and you wrote the scene. I think I did a pass on the scene with Dr. Chivers. I mean, we, I mean, we trade scenes back and forth. But our hands are in all of it. But yeah. I mean, to answer your question, it really does make it, you know, we brought ourselves

[00:30:49] to, you know, and especially Dana brought herself to those, those, those moments. Yeah. I mean, I, I love writing. I love trying to make people cry. I don't know if I should admit that because it feels like emotionally manipulative and that's not what you're supposed to be doing when you're writing. But like, I do. As a writer, you're trying to make your audience feel something? I know. I know. I'm going to manipulate you right now. And I've always loved doing that. But I think, and what's like, just to like get a little, I guess, like personal for me

[00:31:19] is I joined Star Trek. I joined this show when my daughter was six weeks old. Oh, wow. So, and so this entire show to me is a little bit about parenthood and, and Pike being such this like father figure as a captain. He's space daddy. He's space dad. But in this particular episode, it really was about like sort of accessing this, this,

[00:31:47] this idea of being a parent and he's not a parent, but he is like he, he, he is. And that's not to say that people who aren't parents can't write this, can't access this because, because I spent a long time writing a lot of family soaps and I wrote a lot about parents and children and, and, and, and all of that long before I had kids. So I don't want to say it has like, you do not have to have a child to be able to access this. You just have to love somebody. Like that's, like, that's it.

[00:32:16] Like if you, you love somebody and then you think about not having them anymore and that's, that's the, that's the grief. That's, that is the grief. So yeah, that's the, uh, I don't know if I answered that question. I don't know. I was crying on set. There was a lot of me crying. When I say I like to write things to make people cry, I like to make myself cry. You're the person. I'm the person. It's me. I, I, I just want to say that for me, one of the most important things about this episode,

[00:32:46] we're, we're never polemic about messages, but I, I think it's very powerful to show a manly man like Anson Mount being able to cry and be that vulnerable. Cause I, I don't think vulnerability is a weakness. It's a strength. No. And, and, uh, I, it's really, really powerful for me as, as a man to show somebody who is

[00:33:12] that paragon of masculinity, being able to be that vulnerable in front of, uh, anybody that has a Paramount plus subscription that's watching our, our, our, our episode, uh, and in front of, you know, in, in front of his, his, his doctor. So that, that was, that was the most important thing for me about, you know, those, those scenes not as a parent, but just as, as a man. Yes. And to build on that, I, I think what struck me most like in that same exact tone is the

[00:33:40] moment when he says that was real anger, because I feel like it's like, okay, that was an important line, an important pivot for him to keep one, keep the episode from just being, oh, it's a, it's a funny joke where he can't leave the room, which then it does still lead to, he's trying to fight his doors to get out. But then at least the conversation with Uhura and like that, that right there is like, oh, Hey, look, he recognized emotions in another person and recognize that it wasn't some kind of big ethereal force affecting her.

[00:34:10] Like she was actually angry and he responded to that and reacted to that. We talked in the room for years, always about one of the big topics is like, what does it mean to be a captain? What does it mean to be a leader? Or what kind of style of leadership? It's just, it naturally comes up when you're talking about Pike and Kirk and Una and Spock. And this idea of Pike is somebody who does recognize, like he is empathetic to his crew and he does

[00:34:39] recognize when they need him and there's something going on with them. That is, he, he is, he is attuned to that. But the idea of not being attuned to himself and needing to get a little bit more vulnerable there so he can be more present there for his crew and be a better leader and make clearer choices was part of what this story came out of, I think. Right, Bill? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:35:07] And that's, you know, I think that is a part of like being a leader and like what would make a great leader in Starfleet and what would make a great aspirational leader in our society's future. He needed to get to that, that place. And this, this episode is, is about him getting to that place. Yeah. That's fantastic. Fantastic. Yeah. You've been setting up throughout the season, kind of like him, maybe not, maybe making

[00:35:33] a few missteps as a leader, pushing the crew too hard, maybe having them brush off some trauma when they shouldn't. Were those like intentional breadcrumbs to this episode? Yes. One hundred percent. Like starting from episode one, where it's the, we're just, we're just rolling through the missions. Episode two, we're rolling through the missions. We need to have a, we need a shore leave. That was baked into this episode of Deirdre Hall sitting there saying, you have gone on

[00:36:02] so many missions and pushed off the mandated therapy sessions that, that Starfleet has. You're running from something. You, you are, you're repressing something. We need to get to the bottom of that. And that's, that's how the story came. But yeah, that was absolutely set up from the beginning of the season. Yeah. Who wrote the Coca-Cola recipe? Like hand wrote it. I mean, like where'd the recipe come from?

[00:36:29] Did you guys find one or did someone on the crew have their grandma's recipe? Cause you had, it's all in the book. I haven't freeze-framed it to try making it, but. Emily Hyde, our great prop master. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we added, and I'm forgetting the, the, the space ingredient. Oh, is there a space? Oh yeah. It was like, it was like only a child's recipe plus a space. I knew there had to be a story there somewhere. That's awesome.

[00:37:00] Excellent. Well, I thank you so much for bringing Q back, for bringing Cypok to us, for bringing Deidre Hall into my life. Yep. Bringing Trillane back for us. Yes. Brace Darby. Yes. It was so great. I want to give one shout out to our guest actor, Diane Johnstone, who played the, the Q Proctor. Um, and, uh, a big shout out to Bernadette for designing her outfit.

[00:37:27] But also a big shout out to Diane for wearing it because that required like 15 people to like balance all of that. And so she didn't topple over and she wore it majestically. So, uh, yeah. And again, wonderful visuals, like not quite Q's outfit, but not quite not Q's outfit from the counter of Firepoint. So, yep. Like, uh, the, the layers of this episode.

[00:37:55] I mean, just, just as we've talked about it and we were talking with Anna before, I'm like, man, there is a lot in this hour of TV that people are going to think about for a long time. So bravo to both. It's an episode that sneaks up on. Yes. Like I didn't know what to expect. And like I said, like I laughed, I cried. It's everything I wanted in an hour of TV. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, we do like to always ask, of course, do you both have a favorite line from the episode?

[00:38:23] God, I hope still in the episode, uh, because it was one of the first things said it is a room line. Like this was a line pitched in the room and that is body cleaning theater. Yes. It is still there. Great. Yeah. I wish, I wish, uh, I'm going to out us for that. That was Alan, the great Alan McKellar. Yeah. It's so good. Thank you for giving him credit, Bill. I chose on that. No, no.

[00:38:48] I, I, I remember the second that he pitched that I'm like, well, that's in the, in the movie. Well, that's in the script. I mean, it's, it's a go-to, but I got, I, you know, and it's hard for me to take credit for it because this was from Star Trek five. But when, uh, Cybok turns to La'an and says, everyone has a secret pain, share your pain with me and gain strength from the sharing.

[00:39:13] Um, and cause I, I, I actually think that's a beautiful sentiment and, uh, is thematically fit with what we were trying to do with this episode. That's what Pike has to do with the last scene, right? Yeah, absolutely. Again, that's, that's one that I stole from, from, from, from, uh, William Shatner's movie, but, uh, uh, but that's my favorite. Hey, if you're going to steal, steal big, man. We tried to use it in a different context. I almost forgot. I was going to ask Dana knows.

[00:39:43] I love to ask, uh, to get a script reading if possible. The Cybok reveal, do you have the script handy? Oh yeah. Yeah. Wait, if you give me like a second, I'll find it. Uh, sorry. I, I, you know, um, Henry reading the puppet kiss is like one of my favorite things. Oh my God. Oh, okay. Cause it's, cause he is revealed in, in dialogue. Right. Like that's the thing. He's just a prisoner. It's the prisoner, the prisoner, the prisoner. Okay. I'll do the whole thing. I'll do it.

[00:40:13] I'll do it from when she, she takes the black bag off. Yeah. Uh, she whips off the black bag revealing Spock, or at least it looks like Spock, but his hair is disheveled and he is completely shirtless. The twin Spock doesn't appear angry. Instead, he grins. Sly, sexy, intrigued. Now to what do I owe the pleasure of the best prison break I have ever been a party to? Why am I doing dialogue? This is terrible. I couldn't do that. Anyway, Lon slaps him. He takes it in stride.

[00:40:42] I broke you out of that prison for one reason to save your brother's life. Cybok. That's right. Our spin on the classic evil twin trope is Spock's long estranged brother off Cybok, grinning like the villain he is. I knew, I knew you'd have something good in there. Perfect. I like it. That's the first version. I, Bill will tell me if we rewrote that. It's my memory guys. It's I, I, I'm like, I have amnesia. I have amnesia. Uh oh.

[00:41:11] What happened two weeks ago, Dana? Yeah. Okay. I know. It's been a hell of a season so far and, and this, this episode of like, yeah, feeling it, it, man, I think it is in the perfect spot for this season. And it really is like, this is as crazy as it is. Like I'm feeling it for every one of our characters now. And you guys are obviously a huge part of that. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:41:41] Thank you.