PRIME DIRECTION - "Orders of Magnitude" with Sharon Lewis

[00:00:00] This is Sharon Lewis and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction, where the Star Trek directors will not be undermined by the presumptions of yet another podcast host.

[00:00:24] Welcome to Open Pike Night's Prime Direction, the podcast where we question the decisions of those in charge in front of the entire crew. I'm sure this will go well. I'm your host, John T. Boulds, here to have a serious ready room conversation with the director of Orders of Magnitude. Joining me today is the man who's looking a little sweaty and paranoid after his afternoon coffee, my own special recipe, host of Green Shirt, Cameron Harrison.

[00:00:49] Give me the damn codes, Producer John! I've got to watch our next screener now, now! I need it! And Jesse decided to go explore a cave today, but we had to roll without him, so I'm sorry he won't be here to chat with our fantastic returning guest. Welcome back, Sharon Lewis. I hope Jesse doesn't get stuck in that cave, because that's one dangerous cave. I know, the crystals there are looking a little rough. Right? It's looking a little green. Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:18] Oh my gosh, can I just jump in and tell you guys about those crystals? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So I had this huge like cardboard thing and we made all these little plastic crystals so that we could make the set with the crystals because it's in the volume wall, right? Okay. So everything is, you have to sort of match the crystals to the volume wall because the volume wall has to be made way before I even get hired. Mm-hmm.

[00:01:45] So we looked at the volume wall crystals and I was like, but that's not where I want them, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so we had to rearrange those crystals and then on the day we got into the volume wall and I was like, that's not where I want them. And so then we had to move the crystals on the day. Yeah. It all sounds like that's easy, but when you move the crystals and you move the lights, then you move the points on the volume wall.

[00:02:10] Anyway, so I'm sure no one on orders of magnitude ever want to hear the word crystals again. Especially since they're practically used in the episode too. Exactly. Oh, geez. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm dying to hear what you guys thought. Of this episode? Yes. Do you want to know right out, right out the gate? Yes! Oh my gosh, yes! This is my favorite episode of Strange New Worlds entirely. Shut up. This, I love this episode.

[00:02:38] I sat down, I watched it and then just messaged Cam and Jesse like, guys, 408, holy shit. Like, this is an absolute John Boulds type episode. I can attest to that. He did. Oh, talk more, John. Talk more. Say more. Say more. I mean, obviously there's a big, a big history and, and, and combination of submarine type movies with Star Trek. I haven't even seen the submarine movie that I'm associating this the most with. You haven't?

[00:03:07] No, I don't know how, because I think it's right up there. Like I've never seen master and commander either. And I've been told that's the most me movie ever. And it's like, for me, I know Crimson Tide. I know Crimson Tide has earlier influences too, but I'm like, man, this is great. Why have we not seen this? Plus a great Mad world. Plus Joe freaking Morton. I mean, yeah. Yeah. And he was, he wasn't cast before.

[00:03:35] So I got hired and they were like, we're looking at this guy. We're looking at this guy. We're looking at this guy. And then they were like, but actually who we really think would be great is Joe Morton. And then I was like, Joe Morton, like, are you crazy? I mean, he's like brother from another planet. Right. Like he's like, you know, Shondra. Anyway, he's like the OG. And then when he got cast, well, when he said yes, basically, when he said yes, I was like, wow.

[00:04:04] And then I was super intimidated. Like, how do you go to Joe Morton and go, Hey, could you try that again? I'm wondering if maybe we can, you know, That's one of our questions, Sharon. How do you do that? Oh, yeah. I did it. So there's that there's, there's the scene and Alan, you know, Alan McElvoy, who is the writer. So Alan and I are sitting together and he's doing this scene and he's like killing it, of course, because he's Joe Morton. But there was just like a little bit more that I wanted.

[00:04:32] And Alan's like, go to it. And I'm like, ah, so I like get on the set and I'm like, Hey Joe, I'm just like, you know, he's like, yeah, cool, cool, cool. So go back. He does it again. And it's so close. Like, it's so close. And Alan and I look at each other. I'm like, Oh God, I've got to go tell him again. So I go up to him and I'm like, Hey, you know, that's like amazing. I'm just, and he's like, you know, I'm not a young guy, Sharon. And I'm like, I know, I know Joe. I know.

[00:05:02] But I just, you know, and he's like, ah, anyway, and then he did it. And he brought tears to all of us who were watching, like just brought tears. And then the whole set, I remember the first day he came on. So you do like a, when you walk on the set, we're like, let's read the scene. Right. So we all read the scene and then, you know, and then I start to block it.

[00:05:24] And the first day he came and he, I can't remember what the scene was, but it was anyway, he read the scene and he was reading it. And all the actors, like all of them went, Oh, we got to step it up to here. Cause he did not come to play. He did not just kind of read the scene. He like brought it. Do you know what I mean? And so they all were like, Oh, Hey, okay. Not that they're not great actors. They all are great actors, but usually you're kind of feeling.

[00:05:54] You're feeling your way in. No, not Mr. Joe Warren. He was like, I'm here to, I'm here to play. So you better step it up. That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. So that Cameron, how you do it is like, you fear for your life. You give them the direction. And then he, I think even he was so happy when he saw all of us just like, you know, we broke out in applause. Like it was, yeah. And he's a professional actor and he is.

[00:06:23] He's a storyteller and an artist. And he came to bring artistry. So there was no ego. It wasn't ego. Like when he was like, I don't know, man, it was more like, what do you want from me? Yeah. It was more of that. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, last season you handled a very specific format with the documentary episode.

[00:06:47] And this season you helmed perhaps the most traditional episode of the season was how did you get this episode? Do you think? And how did you approach that change in style? Well, you know, what's so great about the SNW team is that on the documentary one, obviously the construct was so different than any other episode.

[00:07:10] But what everybody seemed to respond to was the insight into the characters in the doc episode. So if I was being humble, but I'm not my special sauce is working with actors. And I think this classic episode is all character. Like it's all, there is a plot of course, but it's a clash of egos. It's a clash of morals.

[00:07:39] It's a beautiful, it's such a classic Star Trek episode. Do you know what I mean? Because the morals are presented and it's up to us, the audience to make those choices and come away with some hope. And that's, that's why we all, I think got attracted to Star Trek in the first place was that little element of hope. So, so yeah, I think it's because I, I really love working with actors and, and sculpting those characters.

[00:08:07] And you had worked with most of these actors before, but again, on such a different episode, was it, was it almost like a first time again, working with them on this versus the documentary episode? No, because, you know, the thing is that you approach it the same way, you know, what's the story? How do I execute it? What is the beginning, middle and end of each scene? What's the beginning, middle and end of the entire story? What's the beginning, middle and end of that emotional beat? So I approach it the same.

[00:08:36] And I'm not going to lie. There was a part of me that was relieved to do, to shoot it in a classical way. Like I, you know, I was like, we're not going to be droning. We're not doing anything weird, you know, like we're just going to shoot this in a classical way. And, and Crimson Tide was the inspiration that Alan came to me with. And I had seen that film already, but I watched it and watched it and watched it.

[00:09:01] And then when I brought it to the DP, Ian Anderson, I think he was a little relieved too, because we did the doc together. And he's like, okay, classic, you know, the only thing that we did that was a little bit different, which is what they sort of do in Crimson Tide is little Dutch angle, just a little bit of Dutch angle stuff. So you always feel a little off kilter, but anything too, I was like, we're going to stay in this world in here.

[00:09:26] And also surprisingly, there's not a lot of lights, right? On the, like interior lights on the, so we had to kind of add that for that texture and for that mood. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was watching it. I was like, it's Crimson Tide with the Marco Ramius that the Soviets wanted them to think he was in, in, in, in October, October. Like, yeah, he's got, he's mourning the death of his wife and going on a revenge trip. I was like, all right. Awesome.

[00:09:56] Here we go. John, did you get that just from watching it or did, is it published that it was Crimson Tide and hunt for red October? No. I mean, just from having seen trailers of Crimson Tide, I'm like, oh, okay, this is, this is definitely feeling like Crimson Tide and watching, watching him work. I'm like, oh, this is the Marco Ramius that they were told he was that Jack Ryan was like, no, I don't think that's what's going on here. Yeah. Yeah. That's just that. That's going to make Alan so happy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that, that was our whole.

[00:10:26] Yeah, absolutely. Well, then Alan gave us a list of other submarine movies that I now need to watch that I'd never seen before. Oh, did he? Yeah. Yeah. I did watch them too. Like there's some black and white ones and there was like some very obscure ones that. Like I know run silent, run deep. I've never seen it. And now I'm like, I guess I should go watch it. I did watch it. Yeah. Yeah. I want to remain on what a star fleet a little bit longer because both episodes do take kind of a skeptical look at star fleet.

[00:10:52] Both episodes seem to say like, it's not about the ideals or the ship or the captain's chair, but the people who embody and inhabit those things. That's what's important. That's what makes star fleet. Do you see this episode is kind of a continuation of that conversation where you kind of pulling threads from one to the other? Yeah, I think that's a really good question, but I have to say this one felt far less cynical. Mm hmm. Yeah. Like what is star fleet?

[00:11:19] I think was brave, but I also think it's part of what upset people is that we were digging and we never really offered you a, you know, at the end of most star Trek episodes, you feel a sense of like, oh, I'm not going to get you. Oh, morals one, like, you know, morals and integrity one. And I think what is star fleet that there was a little uncomfortable feeling. There were unresolved threads, although this had.

[00:11:45] No, I really felt hopeful at the end of this episode, and it really felt like we were doing a nod to where Kirk is going to go, you know, as his character. And it sort of felt like a growing up of Kirk and. Yeah. Yeah. No, this I mean, didn't it? It didn't feel helpful to you guys. Well, I mean, I did. But again, I just I saw the same themes of because what is star fleet felt hopeful to me, too.

[00:12:14] It felt like the answer was star fleet is the people. Yeah. Which is a in itself is a very complicated answer because people are complicated. Right. Yeah. But those people are in charge of planet destroying weapons. Also. Yes. Right. Yeah. So here we have two people who are in charge and yeah, their. Of wills and who will come out on top. True. And also, again, asking really hard questions, which you're right.

[00:12:43] Like in what is star fleet? There are really difficult questions like, do you just follow commands? That's true. That was the same theme in this. What does it mean to just follow a command? Do you just follow a command? Is that what you're meant to do? Yeah, that's true. You know, I don't know if I saw it like that until you asked that question that it really is a similar and I need to go back and reshoot that. I think you did it right. I think it was. I think it was there under the surface. I don't think you need to change a thing. Yeah.

[00:13:13] That's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same sort of moral question about when do we follow commands and when do we when do we act as humans and follow our own will? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, having Kirk be at the center of this one was very different than what is Starfleet. Yes. Right? Like this is my first time working with Paul in such an in-depth way and really exploring

[00:13:42] that canon of Kirk and where he's going. It's like, I, man, that is tough. Don't you think? Carrying Kirk on your shoulders. Oh man. Like that brother handles it well. I'm just going to say that. He handles it well because, and it's the same with Spock, right? There's this one scene in the episode where, you know, it's a little throw to their relationship. Yeah.

[00:14:08] And, you know, we shot that three or four times because it's such an important scene and it's such an important moment to sort of lay those seeds of what that relationship is going to be. Mm-hmm . And so I think we all felt the weight of that on the day. Cause it's, it was, it's a small moment. It's not even like, you know, but I don't know. I just kept hitting it over and over again.

[00:14:34] Cause I was like, we got to make sure that we are getting that Spock and Kirk energy. Who do you think is the harder character to play? The more difficult tasks, Kirk or Spock? You know, I would have said Spock because he's got to find emotion. Mm-hmm . But what I think Ethan does is he brings his own energy to this Spock.

[00:14:59] And because the dynamic between all of them is not, between Spock and all of them feels less in canon than Kirk's does. Mm-hmm . Do you know what I mean? Kirk really has to navigate that. Like Paul really has to figure out his Kirk. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And also I would say this Spock as a Vulcan has specific characteristics. Yeah. That's what I come back to.

[00:15:28] He kind of has a door into it with those things. He does. So as long as, you know, he's wearing the ears, not as, you know, I'm simplifying, but he's wearing the ears and he's doing his sort of, yeah. Like my emotions are down here, but Kirk was a human and it was William Shatner. So. Yeah. And as a character, he's messier. He's, he's. Yeah. Yeah. In a good way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know if you could ever define which of them is more important historically to just the culture, but Spock is supposed to be an outsider.

[00:15:58] He is supposed to be a window for us to look into this and learn. Mm-hmm . Whereas Kirk has to be a leader. Like he, he has to get to the point where he is the leader of the enterprise and, and can, you know, get, get people to follow him and trust his orders and trust his judgment. So. Yeah. That's, that's what I took away from this one. Like, oh, Paul's doing a lot more, you know, Ethan's got four seasons of Spock here. Paul's got almost four seasons of Kirk too, but this is more of an evolution for him. I agree.

[00:16:27] And you were like, would we trust you, Paul as a commander? Like, would we trust you? Yeah. Especially since we've gotten to see that question asked by those who will be under his command previous, you know, last season once. And it was a little rocky. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a moment too, in that episode where he doesn't act morally. Right. Yeah. Right. Yep. And, and that was tricky too. Yeah.

[00:16:56] That was a little tricky moment where he fooled somebody. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Right. And yeah. And it was that Kirk like or not? I don't know. Well, I guess it is. Cause it was Kirk. There you go. Yeah. Well, when you were prepping for the episode, what were you excited about? Like when, what, what were you eager to dig into with this one? I think for me that, that moral question.

[00:17:21] And also the hardest part for me was with Rieger who Admiral Rieger, who's played by Joe Morton is how crazy do we make him? Mm-hmm . Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:49] And I think, you know, he, you know, the most hilarious. Like if, like, he did nothing. Then why would do and he, that's a whole lot. Well, it was, like, you know, he was really, he's really, he's really, he was. Like, you know, even, he was really disappointed with him because it's big he was, he created , I don't know. But before there's no need to have my parents. And, and, you know, I'm just like, if I'm just kind of thinking about these kids and You know, if somebody has to go back to church, you know, as I'm just saying, the last thing called you do that I'm notrying.

[00:18:15] good so that was the hardest part i thought to navigate was not to make him oh he was just on drugs that's why he's acting crazy that it was just that moment and even that moment it's not like he's you know on super drugs that he can't think it's just that it's intensified and and blurred his ability to communicate i think navigating that was probably the most difficult

[00:18:45] yeah yeah yeah yeah can i just ask you guys did you ever dislike kirk this is what it was like last time john oh yeah you first cam i mean i never disliked kirk i mean i highlighted the episode to me is like oh kirk's going rogue like it's you know he's his first time kind of using the enterprise this way um in all these these episodes i do feel like there's always a a percentage

[00:19:14] of audience members who are like well of course the admiral's wrong kirk's right that's always going to be the case and i'm always like it's not that easy we don't know what comes after this if another five million people die that completely changes how i look at the events of this episode compared to if the the enemy ship goes off and gets captured right away like in tv you can kind of always box things off and i'm like no it's asking you to think bigger than that it's asking you to think

[00:19:41] if this were real how would you weigh these things and so that makes his actions much more gray in my mind i yeah i never disliked him in fact i i enjoyed more and more as like oh he's really like putting himself and his health and safety on the line for this because he he does believe it when he beams back in all beat up like oh okay oh i'm i'm on kirk's side now he's getting dirty with it um cam

[00:20:07] has not he's working his way through ds9 so i'll be very vague here ben cisco had to answer this kind of same question for himself as to how far he's willing to go to try and do what he thinks is right and maybe the wrong way but i do like that it's an unanswered question at the end i do like that it's like you know we can't sacrifice we can't we can't become the monsters we're trying to chase down a

[00:20:34] little bit you know to very put it very simply it was like well the monsters did kill five million people and they are still out there so i'm not going to put that you know entirely at kirk's feet they're a cloaked ship they there's no guaranteeing it would have worked either way but yeah i never never felt myself turning on him are you do you think you're more like reader or like perk like if you're in that situation would you be reger or would you be kirk that's what these

[00:21:03] episodes are supposed to make you ask i want to be a kirk i'd probably be a reger that's nice and honest cameron no that is that's good i mean i'm a needs of the many sort of guy yeah and it's one of those things like yeah the the ideal is there but at the same time like hey if we have a chance to stop something this bad happening again whether there's personal hidden motivations or not like that's like at least

[00:21:30] it at least it's not i hate to put numbers on at least it's not a thousand people at least it's not a tiny like five mil like when they said five million i'm like oh my god yeah how was this not what you were all talking about when the episode started you're going to a cave right five million people just got murdered apparently within the last 12 hours like yeah i was like why aren't we getting

[00:21:53] called for this so that i'm glad it was a a significant number like like and again i know that sounds horrific but it's no it's dark the the way media works and then you know you have to have a scope to something and it's a it's the right size scope for the story that's being told i think that's the beauty of tv though is that i probably would have been reger but what we want is a kirk

[00:22:19] you know what i mean that's the beauty of well and star trek is that we aspire to be the kirk i think my fear and pragmatism would lead me to be a reeker right like what like we talked about earlier you can't have you can't have rigor be too evil he can't ever reach such world as mustache that it does take an x factor to get him to to get everybody else to see what it is that kirk believes it's not rigor

[00:22:46] breaking it's kirk having to trick him you know modify something in some way to get everybody else to be like oh well we're we're kind of blindly following orders right now yeah yeah yeah yeah and truly i'd probably be an ortegas i'd be the one who's like one i'm not in i'm not in the position to make the choice and i'm the one who's like are you sure there's not a no okay well you know better than me you are uh you know an admiral i'll you're gonna take the fall if this is the wrong thing

[00:23:16] speaking of which i i did notice on the bridge it felt like there was a lot of reaction shots of Ortegas it felt like she was kind of the audience barometer for the the mood of the crew was that intentional was that just her kind of place being down front in the bridge or is that me just being ortegas fan and and wanting to see more of her no i think you're absolutely right and it's so funny

[00:23:38] that you um caught on to that because i think ortegas had a real conflict and while we were McElvoy when we were working it out had a real conflict like really didn't know which way to go and i was like that's perfect like that's because the admiral was ortegas is like everything you know

[00:24:03] and so and had done so many things that they had wanted to do so the the admiration was real and grounded so i think ortegas to me is the sort of moral going back and forth not knowing quite what to do not knowing and really stuck i think you're absolutely right and it's so funny when you did the this that's one of my favorite shots with oh yeah like i love those shots she looks back yes when

[00:24:32] when she looks back at him and we're over his shoulder and onto her because he's you know he's sweaty and he's he's scary yeah yeah yeah he's a presence scary yeah he's right but he's and wrong both yeah and also because captain pike's not there so that kind of safety valve is not there that's what was so interesting to me and it's she's not a pike ortegas she's a rigger ortega she is it's she's a

[00:25:02] very different pilot for those for those two different captains and i think yes like i i understand you know it could have been La'an who is that like you had to pick somebody who is like oh that this person's acting very differently with a different leader in charge yeah i guess was the right choice yeah and i think with laon because there was that energy going back and forth between her and kirk

[00:25:26] i think that kind of clouded whereas ortegas kind of had a pure energy around rigger you know like i think yeah because laon was battling stuff and then you know kirk betrays her yeah yeah yeah yeah she didn't pale him i'm just saying i love that line

[00:25:51] it was so funny because when we were shooting that there was that sort of energy from paul well hey yeah maybe like she didn't pale me and then for christina laon it was like yeah but he's he's literally gonna stun me and i'm gonna like you know what i mean so we shot that fight a couple of ways because it had to be surprise otherwise you know she's a badass on the badass so it was trying

[00:26:19] to get that surprise down that was the biggest thing because she's like if he if he doesn't surprise me i'm gonna kick his ass so we had to keep working that out it was interesting yeah how much of jeff daniel's getting shot by keanu and speed do we put her exactly yeah yeah and then benga's always an interesting character too right he's always got

[00:26:46] this sort of dark secrets that reminds me of what is starfleet is that he is such a an enigma yeah i mean he knew it was wrong what kirk did and he was sort of against rieger but then he kept that secret for so long like he didn't tell kirk you know what i mean about his dad that just

[00:27:11] yeah my first watch i was like is this how mbenga would react would he not go is this how the butcher of jagal would react in the situation but then yeah like that i think it was the second watch and i was like no that we've seen like mbenga doesn't like the monster inside of him and i think he kind of keeps it down with following protocol with following chain of command yeah like he uses that to protect himself in a lot of ways so it did make a lot more sense yeah and and i didn't feel like he was

[00:27:37] trying to atone but it didn't feel like he wasn't like a little bit he was like okay the time is right to yeah neither confirm nor deny but give a little nod to yeah and it was all it was almost like a um you are of age now son you know to know this truth right like you you now have proven that you can take on this responsibility with the truth and i think too learning about him becca from what is starfleet

[00:28:06] just more that sort of struggle that he has with the monster within and he doesn't want to be that there's none of him that's proud of that right yeah that i think he's he's holding it down okay i'm gonna ask you as a director then do you think that deep down he's a little bit addicted to it though mmm and benga because i i've to the violence to the to the he's like i am he loves being

[00:28:34] a doctor hands down is what he is but at the same time he doesn't exactly put up a big fight every time he's called to commit atrocities either so and he's done a handful of atrocities you know in in the name of good things but it's like you are a butcher of a place yeah yeah and and you you know we haven't seen you say i will never you know it's like you killed a guy on this ship too so

[00:29:02] yeah i keep getting closer and closer like is he a little bit just addicted to it is is the action is the juice for a banga a little bit and he might hate it kind of thing you know my feeling with him banga is he doesn't know who he is without that like i i don't think he actually knows he has sacrificed like with his daughter and all of that he's sacrificed so many relationships

[00:29:29] that i don't know if he knows yeah i don't know if he knows i think that's why he's a doctor he's like this i can do i will try to save you but i don't think he actually knows yeah yeah i don't i think he seems a little not sure to me of who he is all i know is i like cutting people open one way or the other yeah yeah yeah yeah like blood doesn't bother me that's doesn't like you know

[00:29:59] what i mean in that way almost like a machine i think we're all a little addicted to the things we know we're good at even if we don't like doing them we're like yes i'm good at this i should yeah well and it gives us a purpose right like it gives us i'm like yohuro his his hope and light and you know belief in the future and like none of that lightness is in and benga yeah like he's just

[00:30:25] yeah and lon to me lon does not carry the hope or the dark but is is most comfortable in the structure yeah oh yeah yeah just yeah just tell me what to do you know what i mean and i will do it like most comfortable in that and and i'm good at that i'm i mean that's what lon says yeah yeah yeah

[00:30:50] absolutely basically says that yeah and with with her on the bridge i mean with everybody on the bridge like you have a lot of full crew bridge scenes which are pretty famously hard to shoot and there's a lot of motion there what was your experience to approaching those especially in this episode with the different i don't know it's not mood on the bridge but the different formality of the bridge what do you mean john what do you mean the posture of the bridge when rager is in command versus when

[00:31:19] pike is command like how did you approach um was that like you talked about before with joe morton was that just everybody on the crew sort of settling into to a little bit of discomfort more formal positions or or did you work with anybody on that like you know because all of a sudden paul wesley is you know kirk is standing there in in the spot he is required to stand at all times i was like yeah you wouldn't be doing that if pike were around yeah you'd be leaning against the doorframe or something

[00:31:48] yes well what was interesting about that was so i sort of like i said you know the process is you read the words i say let's read the words and then i sort of lightly block it and remember anson's not there so pike isn't there so it's a you know it's a different energy already and then the moment that joe sat in that chair was so uncomfortable for everybody because it's exactly what you're saying i

[00:32:16] think that's what you mean that formality or that what we're used to all just kind of went like this which i thought was fantastic because i was like this is what we're going to use and then when he sat like this do you know what i mean and kind of slumped down pike never slumps down right pike is always sort of like this he might do this but he's got a very you know and joe kind of slumped down

[00:32:41] or whatever it almost felt sacrilegious right like i was like what are you doing you know but it was him finding his way and then on one scene we decided i was like you know when he stands up and he's like i know this is hard for everybody you know pike would normally sit and say that and i was like what would

[00:33:04] happen if you appealed to this crew because they don't know you and a strange thing happened with that is that i think it made him even more powerful because he got up from the chair and he took all that room inside the middle there and i think it made everybody stand back interestingly enough so yeah it's a great question because having him sort of sit and move in that already made everybody

[00:33:33] a little um where do where do i go now especially kirk especially kirk right so it it it was actually interesting to watch them try to find their places and like kirk goes behind him to talk the spot and behind him to talk the lawn that worked out really well because he's actually going behind

[00:33:59] his back right you know while he's doing that stuff so yeah i thought that was interesting i will say that this is a quick aside when i watched starfleet academy and i saw holly hunter put her feet up on the chair from the captain's chair i thought it was gonna die like i was like oh my god like what are you doing you know what i mean it's so it you don't even realize how ingrained that you feel attached to

[00:34:26] those certain elements that out of respect for that chair you know like even the first time i sat in it and i took a selfie and i was like i can't believe i'm in the cat like it's so what was your pose how'd you sit yeah i i sat like this like really uncomfortable i can't even imagine putting up my feet or something like i was like oh my god like i am a

[00:34:51] guest thank you for letting me be a guest that's what it feels like and i had a friend come and visit the set and he was like can i and i'm like you can but how are you gonna sit in it yeah you know and he also was like i'm so uncomfortable because it's it's years it's canon it's well 60 years isn't it yeah yeah star trek so yeah beautiful well speaking of stuff uh kirk is doing and i know you

[00:35:19] said you came on to do a lot of the subtle character stuff but there is some very plotty stuff that has to happen in this episode and i'm thinking specifically of the scene where he drugs rieger's coffee with the cordyazine you know it's one of those scenes where like watching back you're like oh it's so obvious his fingers hit it and then he drinks from it and then you like rack focus to the mug but in the moment i didn't catch it and how do you approach like filming one of those kind of like little sneaky subtle things yeah you know yes that's such a great question because

[00:35:47] if you make it too obvious you're like why didn't anybody see yeah exactly and also mbenga's right there like how come nobody saw what happened but if you make it so subtle nobody believes it actually happened so we did a couple of takes on that and it's funny it was by accident that take that ended up in the cut happened because we were just sort of like oh what if we try

[00:36:12] lower angle and and then he did it and you know he sort of stumbled over and then but it wasn't that wasn't really the planned shot i mean of course that was the planned shot but it actually happened by accident because it felt as subtle and you know because he's sort of you know coming in like that uh so or you know sort of stumbling over it so that that was very

[00:36:37] helpful and also in the beginning we made such a big deal of the coffee yes that that i hoped that you know it was an easter egg for when people came back to go oh my god like yeah that's a that's a really close-up shot of a lot of coffee making yeah and him giving him the coffee and you know all that kind of stuff yeah yeah personally i mean i i picked up on like the rack focus of the mug when

[00:37:03] they left the room i was like are we just kind of being artsy here or am i supposed to think of something and then i'd completely forgotten about it by the time he's sweating on the bridge that all just felt like he's nervous in the moment so yeah it played really well yeah yeah but speaking of those hints i also noticed because then i was like okay when did he get the cordyazine how long was he holding it is it liquid is it a pill what is it i did notice in the med bay he's got something in his hand he's got like a silver canister is that the cordyazine or is that a remote for the

[00:37:31] transporter he steps into that's the cordyazine okay so he so in the in the scene with mbenga i don't know if you notice but he's putting the cordyazine in a little yeah oh yeah okay okay so i'm like if you go back you go oh so paul knows where that is right no or sorry kirk kirk knows how to had to um how to

[00:37:57] get to that so i did that shot on purpose and then you see the guy walk by these are all little easter eggs obviously but you see the guy walk by kirk with the tray okay so little easter egg so that you know when you go back you go oh that's where kirk knew how to get it where to get it what it looks like yeah check off cordyazine yeah yeah and speaking of kirk uh i love any and all kirk brothers scenes

[00:38:23] um does it take a little while to get like their level of sibling rivalry just right or are they have they been pretty locked in are those how do those two do with the brother scenes those two are locked in in the jokey jokey we had to work a little bit more with the serious okay because they've always been you know they've always got that and we wanted to find you know the humor in

[00:38:46] that but also the stakes are pretty high like you know so so i think well i feel confident we found it but usually like getting that like at the end that walk at the end yeah that's easy it's more the like are you serious about this right now like you're really gonna screw me over like that you know you want me to yeah to take one for you so yeah i love their dynamic though yeah yeah i really

[00:39:16] find them yeah they're interesting and also even the scene with um alan and ortegas you know when they're in the oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah finding the humor and that's like yeah yeah interesting okay i just wanted ortegas to like take a bite of whatever lon was eating at the end i don't suppose there was ever a take like that was there i just that's what i wanted oh that would have been good you mean eat what lon's eating yeah yeah

[00:39:43] as long as he's there i'm like that look kind of tasty yeah yeah sure sure sure yeah yeah yeah those scenes are fun because you get to have aliens in them yeah yeah yeah i've noticed there's the is it the tellarite is that the yeah yeah a lot of him in this episode yeah yeah yeah he was really good the um oh my gosh i'm forgetting his name the actor in the cave the captain the andorian yeah and

[00:40:11] what was his name oh no you guys all have to edit this out his name in yeah he was excellent yeah yeah he was great yeah yeah he was really good but he had a uh the right amount of mustache yeah yeah yeah he had much more mustache yeah yeah yeah and and we kind of wanted to do that because reger had to be real he couldn't be somebody that you could just disrespect but he we could have fun with

[00:40:39] do you know what i mean like his little yeah mustache twisting kind of thing and i thought you did a kick-ass job with that fight yeah oh my gosh let's talk about the caves a little bit because come on that of the whole episode that was the one i was not expecting yeah it's time to time to go this must have been when john wrote holy shit because yeah her uh going full taken on these guys

[00:41:06] she was wicked she really was wicked like that was yeah she was super excited about that fight did she get to do a lot of the stunts oh yeah yeah yeah yeah so all the stuff where you see well obviously the close-ups on her face where she's going down like that that's her and then she jumped on his back i think doesn't she jump on it that's her and like him spinning around and of course then there were stunt stuff of like you know throwing her down but she did a lot of it she um and she

[00:41:35] killed it and then grabbing in the dirt and i thought she really did a great job well that's what i love it's not like a ballet of violence like we see a lot she's not like super skilled but it's like she gets the job done was that i mean did you guys work towards that kind of down and dirty style yeah the the sort of you know when we talked about the episode what we wanted was it to be so

[00:42:00] almost like a monster being let loose and yohura did not know that she had that in her so in the end when she's walking by you know there was one take we did where she was like yeah i did that and then the take that i hope that reads in the in the episode is she's kind of like oh shit i can't believe i did that because i don't know that she knows that she has that

[00:42:26] vulgar kind of fighting instinct and that's what we want we wanted it to feel vulgar you know like really raw and vulgar and not that sort of safety of where you just shoot from a distance right i mean i haven't made that connection i love that there's so many connections between the cave plot and the and the shit plot like we get to see two types of villainy we get to see two types of captains they're both sacrificing to do what they think is right but here also i mean it feels like she's getting a little bit of revenge and i hadn't really thought of like oh yeah she's feeling a

[00:42:54] little that rigor revenge maybe here in this moment yes yes and what it's like when you're faced with yeah i mean she kills people right in this episode so and she kills him and so yeah and it's not and i really and everybody we really didn't want it to feel antiseptic it wanted to feel like what happens

[00:43:15] when you has to really fight with her hands dirty like that so yeah yeah stand out yeah yeah yeah and even and even shooting the crystal and not coming down you know what i mean like yeah it's not a great way to go is that in your head is that education from a manga like has he been who's been teaching

[00:43:41] her she is is she following the starfleet training for for close quarters combat or where'd she where'd she learn this well it's funny because i think remember and what is starfleet she talked about her family and her family being destroyed i think she had to fight before she got on to starfleet i think she climbed her way into that so i i think as a survivor without parents and a brother she

[00:44:11] fought her way and then starfleet gave her the structure and the hope and the um not the propaganda guys what's the word the um like ideals or ideals yeah the ideals to put behind it do you know what i mean and so that kind of softened her and she says that you know and what a starfleet like that gave me who i am a reason to to be who i am so unlike mbenga i think she does know who she is i think she

[00:44:40] believes and i think mbenga's tortured and isn't sure who he is like she knows she's not a monster but it but it throws her off when she is you know but she's got all the ideals to back it up i think kind of what you said john isn't mbenga might enjoy it too much i personally that's my my story frame yeah he's realizing more and more it's like if they ask me to do it again i'll probably do it again

[00:45:08] yeah and it kind of freaks him out that did you say it cameron or john where like you know if i'm opening up bodies however i'm doing it as a doctor you know i do it clean either way yeah yeah i'm really good at it you know yeah i'm really good at it and and we now know that like chronotons through an hourglass wasn't shot yet but that it takes place just before this episode

[00:45:34] chronologically and that a lot of the characters went through like real catharsis in that episode yeah was there a discussion on set as to how their characters might be feeling differently coming into this story after the uh the events last week i wish i could say yes but no that's right and it's part of the way that star trek strange new worlds does it is that they're so you know we're all

[00:46:01] respectful of the canon for sure and we all make sure that it stays within but they're so like go do your thing you go do your thing you go yeah and and and i think that and well you guys can see it they're standalone films right really yeah even though there is an evolution of the characters and they're you know um a serialized portion in that way but i think because the genres are so different

[00:46:26] yeah that a lot of times we're just sort of left to to kind as long as we're respecting yeah right yeah don't even think about soap operas while you do this episode yeah you know what i mean like how am i gonna like all of a sudden multi-cam yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the tone is so different

[00:46:46] yeah yeah both both great episodes in their own light yeah very different episodes and oh my god i know i did you visit the set for that i got to see the muppets yeah yeah yeah i did yeah yeah i totally did yeah and also it's great for the actors too right because you're doing like this heavy orders of magnitude you know this really really high stakes thing and then you got like muppets and soap opera

[00:47:13] you know yeah yeah yeah i think i shoot i direct a lot of police procedurals and i can see you know by episode 22 or whatever the actors are just like another murder you know like oh my god whereas i think um star trek strange new worlds it's part it's an actor's dream really because i get to act in all kind of genres yeah you guys i really want strange new worlds to come back it makes me sad

[00:47:43] i know i know they keep giving us hope for year one yeah yeah we'll see we're doing what we can yeah i know i know guys season five is gonna be killer too though oh man cannot wait i know some stuff yeah do you yeah we went up to went up to the studio in december and spent i spent a day there again cam spent two days there and uh yeah some folks were once they once we saw that they're like oh you signed

[00:48:09] an nda here's everything for the next two seasons like okay wait who was directing who did you get akiva we were there for the last episode so we saw we saw uh thomas jane's bones i gotta see like a very iconic moment get filmed yeah oh i'm so glad you guys standing on the transporter that's when it really hit me like oh okay yeah the transporter yeah i am in the transporter room of the other guys

[00:48:35] yeah sickbay was cool sickbay is awesome sickbay's sick sickbay's massive yeah yeah yeah i was shocked when i walked in like oh this damn i didn't realize most of the set was sickbay okay yeah and the elevators at the end and the whole yeah no i know it's so cool that's fun now watching the episodes i'm always like oh there's that sickbay shock where they're going back into the office with the lawn like everyone everyone wants to do that shot and i don't blame them yeah yeah yeah well and also

[00:49:03] because you've got the frosted glasses from the office to the sickbay and you can see all the way through and it shoots beautifully yeah i forgot i was going to ask that question why so in the sickbay how did you guys do the frosted glass effect the privacy effect oh isn't that cool yeah yeah no so it's an actual practical of you mean where it goes frosted yeah i think it's some big as like

[00:49:28] privacy it's practical we go privacy and then the glass is shut because the glasses can be two-way they can be frosted or they can be clear okay and when i found that out i was like well that's cool oh really that was yeah yeah yeah i didn't realize that so i was like oh okay so say privacy and then we'll make it and they just automatically i know that was cool that was super cool that's a great idea

[00:49:51] yeah yeah yeah yeah i need to go back and do another episode yes just that is cool and and it does feel you know when there's not even feel there's episodes about mentors and leaders and and banga is also like mentoring kirk like for you personally was there a mentor that you looked to or you learned from who who you thought of while you were filming this episode i don't know if there's a mentor but

[00:50:18] because star trek meant so much to me growing up seeing yura that just that character alone i think just being around that character and being where that character sits and i don't know there's something um i think last time camera i started crying about this so i'm not going to cry this time but but it but

[00:50:44] there really is i don't know how to explain it it's not and almost everybody talks about it like this like carolyn axel like valerie weiss like all the other directors talk about it there is something this will sound too much but sacred about shooting these episodes to to get to tell these stories

[00:51:08] stories is from the time you walk on to that set is there something special and different and sacred about getting to do that so it's not so much a mentor but i don't know that like i could die happy knowing i shot two episodes of strange new worlds like it's yeah there is truly something special about shooting that show and that legacy is everybody on that show respects that legacy you guys probably felt

[00:51:37] that while you were there there's a genuine excitement and responsibility around this show yeah yeah just like i was saying it was i got choked up just walking through the set so yeah yeah i think that that's probably you know one of the highlights of my career for sure nice yeah well and this is your

[00:52:00] second time working with uh an alan mcelroy script yeah can you talk about working with him yeah i adore alan because he geeks out like i do when we're watching like he's do you know what i mean so like i was saying when we were working that scene with joe morton you know and when we saw it explode you know it's that whole like get me the code scene you know and he just the pain and the hurt and everything came out

[00:52:28] all at once like him and i start crying like we're back there crying because it it it's so emotional what's happening but it's also so big it's orders of magnitude like it's big you know like what's happening is big this isn't just like my boyfriend fooled around me nothing wrong with that but you

[00:52:51] know this is like we're talking about big issues and i just i feel so much and he feels so much excitement and you know so uh afterwards i went to la and we got together and we're trying to write the script together but it's because i would do anything that alan writes i just i find everything he writes has some social message underneath it but it doesn't bonk you on the head with it

[00:53:18] you know what i mean he still wants to make it funny still likes monsters you know he still likes he still likes aliens and and all of that but yeah he's he's a yeah before we wrap up is there uh anything else you'd like to tell us about directing orders of magnitude that maybe we didn't ask any any deleted scenes there weren't didn't seem to be any that jumped out at me but no unlike when i did

[00:53:43] what is starfleet because we shot it like a doc there were so many scenes that got cut out because we shot it like a documentary it wasn't like that at all i will say this is that i sort of said it anyway but i just want to say it again that when we were in the scene in the ready room and we so pike is here like everybody's back so that's the first time anson is with joe right in the in the same room

[00:54:11] and you know joe's acting all big and stuff and it was interesting to watch anson sort of recalibrate because joe martin's such a powerful actor and anson's such a powerful actor and he's captain pike and he's admiral rieger i could see him trying to go but i really respect this guy but wait a minute

[00:54:33] this is my right you know like it was such those scenes were really fun to shoot but really hard in a way because i think we all felt that emotion of um yeah just the magnitude of what we were talking about yeah that was that was very interesting and you've got captain kirk over there being like yeah it's all

[00:54:57] gonna be mine someday though totally yeah totally yeah yeah yeah and then venga and rieger having their thing there was a lot of you know and lan and kirk having their thing and yeah there was a lot going usually in the ready room it's kind of more of an expositional type scene you know where you're sort of getting your orders but it was really interesting to shoot almost like a family dinner scene you know like yeah like who's not going to be invited next year i think rieger is not going to be

[00:55:26] this was really fun you guys i thank you so much i love chatting to you both thank you we've got one final question for you yeah okay bring it on uh-oh have you got a favorite shot from this episode i kind of have two but okay okay the the one that i really love is there's a close-up on admiral rieger

[00:55:54] while he's in the chair and he's sweating and it's a little bit of a dutch angle and then he turns to um kirk and he's like uh give me the codes but it's kind of it's before he goes like cuckoo you know what he's trying to keep it under yeah he's trying to but you can tell he's like something is happening and also you're like is he just angry or is he but i love the framing and the red light behind him it's

[00:56:21] very crimson type yeah like that shot for me feels like what we were trying to do through the whole thing and then this sounds crazy but i love this shot so much when we go into the um with um ortegas and lon sitting there eating and we kind of did a one-er where we brought them in we turned around we followed them and they sat i really love that shot too just because that bar and everything is

[00:56:46] so beautiful and it was sort of a whimsical shot that i wanted to do before we got into the it's the exact opposite of everything else i shot like it's light and the camera's moving and they're moving and the scene's kind of funny between them and it's the exact opposite of a crimson tide like yeah exactly yeah it's the opening it's the banter it's the yeah you don't get much banter in the episode but yeah we're like oh it's gonna be fun right i do like how it starts off like yeah it's a

[00:57:16] field trip and my boyfriend's here yeah totally he's visiting with the flimsiest excuse ever to be here they don't have doctors over on the fair again okay no yeah i'm so glad you came back for strange new worlds thank you so much you guys thank you yes it's always a blast i'm glad i could uh yeah you guys always bring the love it's great and it and i just

[00:57:41] so you know we all talk about the podcast oh yeah yeah yeah 100 yeah yeah yeah yeah you always make me blush sharon that's okay y'all make me cry so there you go that's even that works all right guys bye till next time i'm just gonna say till next time yes right we'll make it happen absolutely