SNW S4E2 - “The Griffin Incident”

[00:00:08] Is this thing on? Hello? Hello? Welcome to Open Pike Night, the Strange New Worlds Podcast where your calls are the prime directive. I'm your host, John T. Boulds, here tonight to discuss Strange New Worlds Season 4, Episode 2, The Griffin Incident. Join us tonight as we enter a realm of terror and darkness the likes of which I dare say Star Trek has never seen. But don't look away. Where we're going, we do need eyes to see the rest of Season 4.

[00:00:50] Joining me tonight are my co-hosts, the man who's going to be mad at the writer of this episode pretty much forever, Jesse Bailey. I'm conflicted because Robbie Thompson is really nice and I like him a lot, but he has done this to me. And the man who will love the writer of this episode for pretty much forever, host of Green Shirt: Newbies Trek Through TNG, Cameron Harrison.

[00:01:16] Absolutely, because he made a horror episode that's not generally my favorite subgenre of horror and I loved it anyway. And I can't wait to talk all about it. Well, we have, like I said, your calls are our prime directive and we have plenty of calls tonight. I get to listen to these ahead of time to just sort of categorize them. I think tonight we're going to start with Grayson. How's that sound guys?

[00:01:40] I love Grayson. All right, here we go. No notes. See you next week. All right. Thanks, Grayson for calling it to open my eyes. No notes, Grayson, not a single note. I mean... Did you watch the episode, Grayson? Yeah, I mean...

[00:01:59] That's the way to call in if you haven't gotten in. Yep. Going in too, I'm like, oh, this is totally a Cameron episode. There will be some reason he does not like it. So I'm glad that we get to start on this note, this anti-note from Grayson. I mean... I think that this episode, from what I have seen online, is very yes or no. There are very few middle ground viewers of this episode.

[00:02:24] Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I'm on the record a couple times beforehand of being like, the season's going to be divisive, guys, but you're all going to enjoy talking about why it's divisive. And this was the episode I was talking about, and I feel I have been proven that point so far. Interestingly, Jesse, the first time I watched it, I was kind of on the fence. I mean, I liked it, but I didn't love it. But this third time I watched it, I fully loved it. After talking to everyone, after reading all the comments, like, it's grown on me in a big way.

[00:02:53] Wow. Yeah, I have not been able to bring myself to watch it again. But I didn't... I honestly, I did not dislike it. There was a conversation in Discord about Event Horizon. And I mean, crazy that the first two episodes of this season happened to be Sam Neill, like, adjacent stories. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:15] Um, but I, I did really like Event Horizon. It is absolutely not my cup of tea. I am not into horror in general, specifically anything with a lot of gore in it. But when it is done well, and I think effectively, I can still appreciate it. So I did like Event Horizon. But much like this episode, I have seen Event Horizon once times.

[00:03:43] I mean, I bought a DVD player just so I could freeze frame those flashes in the horizon. I'm sure I've talked about that on this podcast before. But like, they spent so much time on special effects on images that you only see for like two frames. It is gnarly. All right. Well, with no notes on Grayson's call, let's go ahead and hear from Abby.

[00:04:04] Hey, hey, Open Pike. Abby Summer from the First Flight Podcast talking about the Griffin incident. First of all, I hate horror. I get squeamish. I have nightmares afterwards. I have a really hard time with body horror and any of that stuff. So this was not my favorite episode because of that genre. However, there are lots of positives that I can call out. I know it was well done. It's just not my thing. I am never watching this episode at night before bed.

[00:04:32] So let me call out a couple other things that I did really like knowing all of that. Ghosts always look like they need hairbrushes, don't they? Like they're super unkempt. So that's just silly. Tuprang's outfit in this with like the little trail behind her. Gorgeous. And she had her toenails done, as you can see when she puts her feet on the floor. Perfect little detail. Love that Spock imagines that. That's amazing.

[00:04:58] I like that we're doing more and more with La'an's augment thing. I really hope that has more connections and ties to Enterprise and to her personal journey. Really hard seeing Sam die, knowing that his real death is coming with the flying snot pancake. And, you know, I love the part at the end with the cookie with Kirk and Hura. I think that's really sweet. It shows their relationship. It calls back to a time that she was having that was so difficult.

[00:05:23] It's just a nice little character moment in there. And I really like that they're making Kirk a better father to his son in this. So that's all the time I have. Hope this finds you and yours well. Talk soon. How would you guys rather die? Sucked out of you, screen or pancake? I mean, pancake seems less horrific. Like, I mean, I know that I know that we know that those characters endure like a ton of pain. Like it feels like their nerves are on fire or whatever.

[00:05:51] But like, I mean, you can still have an open casket funeral if you go by pancake. But might I remind you, we have made the offer to the creators of the show multiple times that we would happily be blown out an airlock on the show just to be on the show. None of us have mentioned snot pancakes. This is not an airlock. This is pulled through a tiny hole in the most terrifying way possible.

[00:06:16] Like, but I think we're glossing over the most important part of this call from Abby, which is Spock is a foot guy. We now have two episodes in a row where two different love interests are pretty sure Spock needs to help with either their shoes or like is so specifically imagining their toenail polish.

[00:06:40] Like, yeah, guys, if your girlfriend ever says, ooh, the floor's cold or my feet are cold, that is an invitation. And I don't get it. I thought that was a metaphor for Spock getting cold feet with the marriage spring. Okay. That is the only I mean, yes, like the I don't know. I didn't take it as the flirting thing of the foot massage thing. I just thought it was like, oh, okay, we're doing cold feet. I didn't until now.

[00:07:07] I, but I, my genuine reaction was like, oh, this is them trying to set her up as a physical being that is physically there. That's how I read it. So again, every time I've watched this episode, I've gotten more out of it. Like there are levels to this episode. And speaking of which, like, look, if you do not like horror, I'm not going to sit here and tell you, you need to watch this episode or you need to like this episode. A hundred percent. If you don't like horror, you're not going to like this episode. Totally fair.

[00:07:33] I will try to say how I feel this works fitting into the, the general tapestry of Star Trek. I'll say how I think it's important for the characters going forward. But yeah, I mean, no shade to anyone who just, this isn't their, their thing. And then we do have lots of colors who talk about, uh, Kirk and David and some stuff that is said about David in this episode. It's definitely, uh, caught a lot of colors attention. So I can't wait to talk about that.

[00:08:01] But I do want to talk about, because not a lot of people mentioned at the calls, the future Federation leaders retreat. What kind of team building exercises do you think they were doing there? Do they, do they transport people 20 feet up so that everybody below them is there for the trust fall? Like, is it a trust transport kind of thing? Oh, that's good. Trust fall half crowd surfing. Like exactly. Exactly. I'm here for that.

[00:08:29] I would imagine it's, it's much more like, all right, the, the one, uh, special crew member that you have has taken over the ship. How do you react? Or your captain is now an alien. How do you react? Yes. I take it back. It's not the trust fall. It's, it's the airbag thing where the person jumps onto it and launches the other person. They use the transporter for that. Oh, I want to do that. You are your own launcher. They have to catch you in. Oh, anyway. Yeah.

[00:08:59] I'm getting into this. Well, at this point, Kirk's already done the Kobayashi Maru. Is that right? That's a, that's a academy thing. Yeah. I will say, I do know what the theme of that conference was, is let's boldly go. And so when Kirk says that he is making an inside joke because they've been hearing that hundreds of times over the last week. I bet. But he's also the kind of guy that comes away from that conference. Like, I think I really am changed now.

[00:09:26] Like I'm, I'm going to lean into this, all the stuff I heard at this conference. Yep. Also, I've worked at a hotel bar during conferences. I, I've never really had a job where I get to go to conferences, but I've worked there. I know what happens at conferences and Kirk watched Spock and La'an make out and stumble to their rooms and talk about removing boots so many times over that weekend. Don't worry.

[00:09:54] Just imagine like all of that happening days before this episode. Well, and it's already like kind of a fraught group of people to be going to anything together. Yeah. They're all staying at a hotel. There was definitely a scene we didn't see where Kirk is like, I thought you were dating the nurse. Like, yeah, there's probably also after a week of, of a conference like that, La'an definitely told Kirk about the other timeline. I mean, yes. Yeah.

[00:10:24] Well, she already did. Did she? Oh, that's right. In the music. That's right. And she's, I want to talk about La'an and time at some point, and I'm sure there will be an opportunity for that, but I'm going to wait just a minute to be, you know, thematically appropriate. All right. Well, let's go ahead and hear from our caller, Matt Law. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not. Guys, it's Matt from the Prove It To Me podcast.

[00:10:53] Oh, damn it. Listen, I'm a little behind because I've been traveling quite a bit over the last few weeks. I did actually get to watch episode two on release day, but it was on a plane. And since it was on a plane, of course, I had a few beverages prior to pulling it up. Well, that was a fucking mistake. Or maybe it was for the best. The jury's out on that one. I don't do well with horror. I don't judge those that do. I'm just a scaredy cat.

[00:11:18] I remember going to watch The Haunting in Connecticut when it was in the theater thinking, oh, I'm an adult now. I can handle this. Nope. That shit affected me. I don't even know if it's a good horror movie. I just know it fucked me up for days. That shit where the lights flicker and the bodies are just all standing there. And they did that in engineering. That's a safe space, damn it. And I know there's going to be some that will be like, oh, but the episode was so predictable. I knew what was going on the whole time. Good. Good.

[00:11:48] That's the only way I was able to make it through this damn thing. All right. I'm going to go back and ground myself in some real science again to try to shake this off. Live long and prosper. I love it, Matt. I'm right there with you. I think what tips this into horror is the gore, right? Because without that, it's a spooky ghost story. And it's unsettling, but it's not upsetting, I think.

[00:12:16] Without all of the visceral destruction of the bodies of the people that we love, it's a fun ghost story, right? And I can tell you, having spoken with Robbie Thompson, he is going to love that this is how this episode made you feel.

[00:13:03] I mean, I disagree with that. It works. Right. I think that is what is affecting most folks. Because if it were pure, and I don't mean to say the genre requires it. I think specifically in this episode, without that. It's that type of horror versus the other. Without that in this episode, it is still very effective. It just doesn't necessarily churn your stomach. I thought they paced that well.

[00:13:30] Because it's not until over halfway through the episode that Sam gets sucked out through the airlock. And that's the first big gore scene. Yeah, my rewatch today, I was like, oh damn, it takes forever for it to really kick off. So if you don't like gore, you got half of a really good spooky haunted house movie that you can watch. And then you can turn it off just before Sam gets sucked out after he does that amazing turn and smile. Like, it's played so well. And that, for me, is the other thing about this episode. Like, the performances are top notch.

[00:13:59] Like, Sam playing this weird liminal version of like, oh, that's the Sam we know and love. But he's a little creepy. And now it's very unsettling. And then, I mean, Christina Chalk, right? Like, she carries this episode. And we heard from even the writers. Like, we were a little spooked out by having her be so into this and taking to it so naturally. And she crushes it.

[00:14:25] Like, I'm kind of at a loss for a thing to point to that I don't like about the episode itself. Because it's like, I don't, you know, it bugs me to watch gore. But it's not poorly done. The performances are amazing. Like, I ended up liking this episode more than I thought I would. It's interesting because, like, engineering. I'm glad he brought up the shots of engineering because there are some beautiful shots in engineering, which we don't get to see a lot.

[00:14:53] This is our first time in the shuttle bay, I think. Like, in there, which, when you watch it again, like, I love the way they do the buildup. Because it's just location, jump to another location, jump to another location. But continuing the same conversation on as they're first exploring the griffon. And I actually really like that mechanic of just like, okay, they're just walking around exploring the ship. And, yeah, we get to be in shuttle bay there for a little bit. And I was like, hey, we haven't seen this before.

[00:15:20] This is just kind of low-key revealing a new location for the ship. Yeah, and speaking of that, like, it's the first shot on the haunted house. So it's like kind of the first creepy thing. I mean, they're building up tension beforehand. But we're in the shuttle bay and they're beaming in. And I feel like it's one of the few times you see the light of the beam, the transporter, like, rippling and flickering on the walls. And the way it casts the shadows on other things. Like, that was really cool. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

[00:15:48] And, like, the way that everybody had their own, like, oh, no, this is what happened to them. They were in Klingon. They were too close to Klingon space. Like, no, this is what happened. Like, there are griffon urban legends out there. And we get a little reveal of that without them just doing that plainly. Yeah. If you've listened to Green Street, you know, like, I am here for this part of Star Trek. Like, the legends and the archaeology and the, like, what happened here? The mystery is like, yeah, I came into this being hooked. Like, yes, griffon.

[00:16:18] I certainly feel like we didn't get quite enough answers. I feel we'll probably end up talking more about that later. But, I mean, I was, it drew me in. Yeah. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from Izzy. Hi, I've been Peg. It's Izzy calling in about episode 402. I didn't expect to like this episode as much as I did. But, I've watched it like two times a day ever since it came out. I also haven't turned off my bedroom light ever since it came out. So, there's that.

[00:16:48] I really liked Ortegas' What We Got Back Didn't Live Long Fortunately moment. That was really funny. Not funny, funny, but, you know, funny. Yeah. I do, not to hate on Pike two weeks in a row, but I do have some questions about his conversation with La'an at the end. Dude, I feel like your barn ghost doesn't really apply here. I feel like La'an's been through a lot more than your weird barn moment. And also, what is Captain Pike's true name?

[00:17:18] Is it Jennifer? I don't know why the barn ghost is bringing that up. Yeah. Also, love Pike. Love leading with compassion. Maybe, though, be a little less chill about the fact that La'Anne did stab Kirk. Like, that was pretty intense. You're just like, no, it's chill. I'm just going to leave that with the record. But, whatever. I trust Pike. Also, it's sad to see the beginning of the end of Spock and La'Anne.

[00:17:47] It was fun what lasted. But, darned canon. Gonna canon. Anyway, talk to you next week. So, Pike is clearly just aware that Kirk is gutting for his job now, right? And he's like, well... I mean, whatever it takes. Yeah. Do you need to go on to another away mention? Why don't you just ride back on the ship? But this has been something a lot of folks are talking about with Pike and La'Anne at the end here.

[00:18:13] Like, there seems to be quite a fair number of folks who are like, he absolutely should be reporting this. Like, this is a failure on his part. And I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. But I am here to say... My guess is that when you pass this over to Division 12, they're getting all that information. Like, Division 12 knows she stabbed Kirk. They know she was, you know, under the influence.

[00:18:38] So, they're gonna take that into account when they go to do their investigation and that sort of thing. Is kind of how I took it. Like, to say, you know, Thing X is Division 12's problem now. Is like, they'll figure it out. They're used to dealing with things like this. And I'm kind of okay with that. And it's also... I mean, you gotta have La'Anne in the rest of the season. Because otherwise, it is the...

[00:19:07] Data just took over the starship and knocked everybody out. And now he's back on the bridge the next episode. Like, which again, at least is consistent in Trek. But it is one of those things that people bump on where they're like, no. He would be court-martialed immediately. At least put on administrative leave while they figure this out. You know, same thing with Picard. It's happened to so many characters through the years that it's kind of par for the course. So, that's another reason that it didn't bump me. But I think it's a valid point.

[00:19:37] I mean, yeah. I definitely took it that he left it out of all the reports. I don't know why Division 12 would get a different report. Well, I would think they would conduct their own interviews is where I'm coming from. But... Oh, you... I mean, that's true. You think they would. A hundred percent. Right? Yeah. I mean, my first reaction was the same as yours. Like, well, on Star Trek, people get mind-controlled all the time. And they're back to work the next day. No big deal. But, you know, a fair response would be like, let's 2026. Let's do better. And then my next response would be like, well, it's TV.

[00:20:04] Like, you put any normal person, like a real-life person, into an episodic adventure sci-fi story, they're noping out by the end of the first season. Right. The human brain can only take so much constant weekly peril when you have the option to just leave Starfleet or Sunnydale or whatever. I have kind of been waiting for a TV series that builds up, like, oh, this is going to be some crazy kind of out there TV series. And like, all that happens episode one and the rest is just the person, like, afterward, like, recovering. What the fuck?

[00:20:31] Like, counseling and rebuilding their life and all that. I mean, that was my note. Like, you could do a real-life version of this, but that's going to become the identity of the show is all the characters in counseling all the time. And I mean, maybe the real reason is, like, it's not just like, okay, you could say, like, look, we're going to make a good faith effort to discuss mental health and save this person to see a counselor. But realistically, they should be sent away. They shouldn't be on duty again for, like, the rest of the season. And we don't want that. So I get it.

[00:21:00] But having said all that, I agree that Pike's story thing at the end didn't work for me. I mean, I felt like, at first, it just felt like he was saying, like, look, we believe in you. You're not, you know, the sum of your experiences. You're not this thing you thought you were. You're good. I believe in you. I've gone through my trauma stuff that has certainly not been reported. This is kind of what I'm used to. But yeah, the ghost story thing is kind of weird. And he sums it all up by being his words are you survived. That's what's important. Yeah. But that's not what the episode is telling us.

[00:21:28] Like, Mbenga very clearly says a couple scenes beforehand that physically they're fine. Mentally, there are scars. Like, the episode is telling us these things stay with you. So, I am wondering if this is intentionally trying to kind of showcase a flaw of Pike's that maybe we will see ramifications of later. Yeah. And I kind of got the impression that the way he was delivering it is like halfway through this story, he was like, I shouldn't have fucking started telling this story.

[00:21:55] This is not as inspiring as I thought it was going to be. I have certainly done that. I'm like, hey, I'm going to reach out and relate with you. And halfway through, you're like, shit, I am way off mark. Which I think everyone has done. And I want to say right here, like, it's okay to stop yourself and say, you know what? I realize this is not relevant. I'm not going to finish this story. The other thing I will say is like, we know that this show is like plot wise, it's episodic, right?

[00:22:25] But the serialization comes from the characters. So I think it's them not resolving this because they're going to resolve it later. Like, I think, you know, this having affected the people that went through it in such a profound way is going to matter. So I'm willing to wait for that conclusion. And then if it doesn't come, then I'll be like, yeah, how did we never address this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's go ahead here for our first time call this season from Zoe. Open Pike night.

[00:22:55] This is the USS Cinema. Zoe Richardson, captain, commanding, also host of Backlick Cinema, the podcast. And episode two, season four of Strange New World has surprisingly shocking imagery that is wrapped up in the type of quintessential story that we love Star Trek for. And it makes me long for the bygone days when we had 22 to 26 episode seasons because this

[00:23:24] episode would have made a great Halloween episode. It's a ghost story. And I think that it is a very well done ghost story. Kind of reminds me of Cat's Paw, but I feel like it had more punch than Cat's Paw. And without any of the campiness that we kind of enjoy Cat's Paw for. Cat's Paw from the original series. Those are my thoughts on this episode.

[00:23:53] It's great to be back talking to you. Richardson out. Yeah. So usually. Great to hear from you again. So. Yeah. And usually when we're trying to pick an episode to cover for Halloween, it's like we have three options and none of them are great. Like, what should we, you know, like it, but this is like, okay, well, here's now your Star Trek Halloween episode when you need one. Well, I, you know, I watching this, I was reminded of a lot of TNG episodes and I'm sure we're going to talk about them later. Hi, Michelle in advance.

[00:24:23] But like, you know, I'm just reading a lot of posts from people, not so much in our group, but other places where people like, this is not Star Trek. They threw Star Trek out the window with this. And I'm a hundred percent know that like at the end of conspiracy, people had the same reaction. And now those bugs getting zapped are like one of the most iconic images from the first season of TNG. TNG tiptoed into horror so much. Not definitely not what the body horror this does, but like they found ways to push the boundaries of their time.

[00:24:51] And I just, I mean, I love it or hate it. I feel like, especially in strange new world, the show whose identity is to do all these different genres, like it would have felt missing if we hadn't had this episode at some point in the run of strange new worlds. And I also feel like I'm glad that they went full horror because one of my problems, even though I've like learned to love it more with shuttle to confury is I do not think it's a zombie story. It's a story with zombies in it. And this is 100% a horror movie.

[00:25:21] I still think it's Trek. I think there's a solid Trek story in the middle and I think it does great stuff for our characters. But like I watch and go, Star Trek just did horror like this type of horror. And they went full force. Yeah. And I think, you know, not to steal a phrase from the greatest Trek guys, but Adam is fond of saying like Star Trek is a place and in that place you can tell different stories, you know? And I think that that absolutely applies here.

[00:25:48] Like, okay, well, how would Starfleet officers deal with a event horizon style thing? Right? Yeah. Like, yeah. And it's, it's almost, I mean, I understand why this genre doesn't come up more in Star Trek because it is inherently optimistic and it, you know, it's aspirational and things like that. But it's like, I mean, it's the same reason I didn't have a problem with the Gorn. It's like, yeah, there would be scary shit out there in space.

[00:26:16] And like, it would almost be disingenuous not to have characters deal with things that are scary or have to confront their own biases about, you know, somebody that they called a monster, that kind of a thing. So like, again, I'm not here to say, give me all the horror episodes, but I do think this has succeeded. And I think it is an appropriate thing for them to take a shot at. And I feel like they really have nailed the process of, we want to do an episode like this.

[00:26:45] Who should we get for our writer and director? And they picked great people for it. Yeah. They got people who knew what they were doing. Absolutely. And I do, I'm with Cam, like they, they wanted to do horrors. Like we are doing horror. It is, nobody is ever going to be like, no, that's not really a horror episode. Like, no, this is the horror episode. You don't open an episode with a star field and a strange sounding signal.

[00:27:10] Like just from shot one and sound one, the signifier of this is a space horror episode. The lens flare that comes in and the sound of it. Like, that was something I noticed on my rewatch was like this opening shot. Exactly. I'm like, I know exactly what I'm in for. Right. And a thing I didn't notice at all when I watched it were the spooky hidden ghosts. And then I listened to Cameron's interview with the director, Axel Carolyn.

[00:27:38] And I was like, oh no, I'm going to have to watch this again. And like some of the hidden ghosts are the ones you hinted at. Some of them are really creepy. I thought I saw one more, but I could only find that one. And the one I thought I'd found, which she said on Instagram was like, oh no, that was just a suit we looked at people. And I was like, damn it. The one in the ceiling messed with me. Like, I'm watching a fun clip of her being like, oh yeah, we did this. Here's a hint. And then you cut to that clip. And I was like, that is upsetting.

[00:28:07] And then the next shot is the POV of that ghost light is so awesome. That is the attention to detail I'm here for. But yeah, kind of to your point, you were saying, Jesse, into mine about TNG and to the last comment about Pike's conversation at the end, which I bumped on. But the one line he had, I loved space is limitless in its beauty and in its terror. And that has always been with Star Trek to some degree. And one of my favorite lines of TNG is Q's. It's not safe out here.

[00:28:34] It's wondrous with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross, but it's not for the timid. And ever since Q has said that in the second season of TNG, I've been chasing that feeling again with Star Trek. And this episode gave it to me 100%. Yeah. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from our buddy, Platty. Hey there, open Pike night. It's Platty M3. And I'm back with episode two's hit shits and giggles. All right. Hits. I really loved the slow nature of this episode. Nothing felt rushed.

[00:29:04] It built the suspense just right. Didn't rely on all the silly jump scares. Just had funny little things in the background. Scary things, whatever. I loved Kirk getting stabbed just like his son will in the future. That was a nice nod. I liked more Division 12 mentions. Hope that pays off more in the future. And I absolutely, absolutely, absolutely loved more of Sam Kirk. Is this the most Sam we've ever had in an episode? Shits. All right. When they beam back to the Enterprise, why they let Kirk just lie on the transporter for

[00:29:34] so long? You know, Ortegas falls off her chair on the bridge. And typically it's a medical emergency. Send doctors to the bridge. But stab wounds? Eh, whatever. Just leave them there. Speaking of Ortegas, they only made her, almost made her Gore-tagus. And then speaking of gore, just ick with the Sam Kirk and Pike's fingers bits. Just like Jesse, I looked away both times. My young kids didn't. Thanks for that. All right. Giggles. I loved the cookie callback near the end.

[00:30:02] I was hoping they'd leave that more vague than just stating it. But I was chuckling the whole scene there. And I absolutely laughed at the future Federation leaders retreat. It reminded me way too much of high school and all the stuff about future farmers of America. All right. That's the end of this one. Platy M3 signing off. Any seasoned viewer of Star Trek knows if somebody's on a shuttle coming back from a conference, things are about to get bad. Like that is just the way that things go.

[00:30:30] So I really love that they included that as part of the setup. Like to me, that is your like callback to other Treks, right? Like, oh, everything went wrong for Worf in a million timelines. Or, oh, there's a time explosion happening and they got to fix that. And so I like it. And like, I think people in DS9 straight up die on their way back from stuff. So it's like, I mean, this just, this works for me on a lot of levels. And for the Kirk thing. Kirk definitely got champion standing and beer pot.

[00:31:00] Yes. A hundred percent. But the Kirk thing, it's like, I mean, think about it, Platy. Like Ortegas flies the ship. That's a pretty important function. So they're going to be very careful with her medically. Kirk doesn't even work there. He's not even a part of the crew. Yeah. He doesn't even go here. Like, and, and, you know, like at this point, even a stabbing is like, whatever. The doctor will wave a light over it. It's going to be okay. But if you fall out of your chair, you might hit your head.

[00:31:28] Like I keep using the word stabbing. I feel like that knife went all the way through. That is an impaling. Oh yeah. Like stabbing is too kind a word for what happens to him. He was okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we're, we're far enough into this discussion. First, first watch for us when we got our screeners, when the crew beamed in, where you, did you think they were real or not? Mm-hmm.

[00:31:53] So my initial thought was like, okay, they're not real, but they did enough legwork with them not being terrifying to where I was like, oh, okay. Like this is actually like the, the story part of it is how do they work with and against the people trying to help them? Like, okay, I guess they're real. Mm-hmm. And I, I gotta say like, just based on what happens to everyone, I'm glad now that they were not. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

[00:32:21] Like, because on the rewatch, I was surprised that they come in after you've learned to bring, after to bring shoot spot and you're pretty sure she's not real at that point. And so, yeah, of course, at first you're like, eh, this isn't real. But then I'm like, oh, this is a good story thing. Cause like you say, Jesse, maybe it's, you know, the Calvary has to kind of figure out what's going on now. That would be very event horizon that way in that like some of the crew gets taken over, some don't. But yeah, yeah. They, they felt real enough. There's enough moments to, to Platy's point.

[00:32:48] Like I have long wanted more Sam Kirk and more Sam and Jim together. And this gave me so much of what I wanted, even if Sam is, is a figment of Kirk's imagination. Uh, but yeah, so the turn worked. And to me, that's a big reason about why this episode worked. And I'll, I'll talk more about like what kind of horror I don't like later, but a lot, a lot of it is I, I don't like when the audience is like, well, that's a fucking ghost. And the characters are like, oh, I'm so scared.

[00:33:16] And I, I didn't love the stuff with Kirk and his son because the whole time, like, you're like, well, they've got the ghost filter on it. Kirk, you're hearing the ghost filter. It's obviously not your son. You're a smart guy, Kirk. You know, your son's not in that control panel. So I did those parts didn't really work for me, but all the turns, the tapering felt so real. The crew felt so real. And so then when it turned it a hundred percent worked for me because I felt as tricked as the characters. The thing that I really love about this too, like we've, we've, I've seen reactions both that are, oh, hey, Kirk is a better.

[00:33:46] Dad than we thought he was. And wow. Kirk is an even worse father than we thought he was. So I've seen both sides of that. But what I like about this is that, you know, now that Kirk admires how good of a dad his brother is. Like he thinks Sam is doing it right. And even Sam is telling him, no, man, I'm not like, I'm really trying, but like, I'm, I'm not hitting the bar that I want to be hitting.

[00:34:12] So it's like, it adds that whole extra layer of tragedy for Sam because like, we, we know this guy has a kid who's going to end up an orphan. And like, even if you don't know that they, they point at it in parallel with Kirk. Kirk. And here's where I'll mention the La'an thing. For me, one of the most effective moments of this is her telling him, you're going to die alone on the end of a blade.

[00:34:39] And so will your son, you know, like, which is like, yes, it's very clear foreshadowing to something that most Trek fans have already seen. But maybe La'an knows that like, she has already had some weird interactions with timelines and we don't know what this is. We don't know if it is a ghost. We don't know if it is a interphasic alien. We don't know if this thing has seen the timeline and knows for sure that Kirk's son will die.

[00:35:08] And by proxy now La'an knows for sure that Kirk's son will die. So it's like, to me, I think she said that because she knew, not because she was trying to be scary or anything. Like, I think she has seen that event happen. Mm-hmm. I think so. But I think like the writer said, it's probably more related to the ghostness of it all than the La'an chapter timeline. But are ghosts bound by the rules of time? Mm-hmm. Like.

[00:35:37] According to the writer, no. So like, there you go. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. It's the ghostiness. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from Starship. Hello, open Pike night. So that was scary. I love a good horror episode. This one really reminded me of, I think it's called Night Terrors in The Next Generation. But I like this one better because I like the characters better.

[00:36:05] I was excited for a Robbie Thompson episode because, yes, I have seen all 15 seasons of Supernatural. So what? Don't judge me. But I've always liked his stuff. And this episode is no exception. I'm so glad he's on the staff, that he's going to have more episodes in the future. He just did a great job. I loved delving deep into our three characters, especially La'Anne.

[00:36:30] I'm really interested in her storyline this season because we kind of know, well, we do know. We know where Spock's going. We know where Kirk's going. We don't know where La'Anne's going to end up. So that's the most interesting one to me. I wasn't fooled for a second, though, when the crew supposedly flew over. I knew that wasn't them. Or beamed over. I'm like, nope, you're not going to get me. You're not going to get me. But it still delivered on some great scenes.

[00:37:00] Sam getting sucked out into space intestines first was awesome. I loved it so much. I also liked Ortega's getting transported into herself, reminding me of the motion picture. This was just a really great episode. I hope the rest of the season stays this strong. Live long and prosper, guys. It will. So the first time I rewatched this episode just a few hours ago before we recorded,

[00:37:29] I really like on the crew beam in that they're having an issue transporting in. So it's like a little bit of a transport static. And then it comes in and pop, pop, pop, pop. Four people. They complete their transport. And then five people are there. They don't show Uhura beaming in. But all of a sudden, she just walks by in the background. And then she's suddenly in the room, too. But she is not in the shot beaming in. And I know they're like, well, maybe it wasn't.

[00:37:56] When have they ever not showed us the whole Away team beaming in? That's what I noticed. And I'll have to go back and check. Because I thought it was Uhura. I thought, because I remember thinking like, well, that's interestingly staged. Because you only see Ortegas' arm a little bit behind Pike. And then they cut to a close-up. And that's the only first time you realize Ortegas is there with them. I might have to watch it again. But I only heard four pops. Because they have a sound effect of the transport completing. That's like an electric sizzle kind of thing that happens. And I was like, I think I just heard four.

[00:38:26] And then there are five people in the room. That would be a fun little shining kind of rug pull. And we're giving you the clues up front. The only time I questioned. Because when I first watched it, I was like, no, that's not really them. This is a hallucination. But then with Ortegas, with the transporter thing, like, okay, maybe this is them. And that transporter horror scene was so good.

[00:38:49] Because, like, you hear her scream, like, beam out and then beam back into the buffer as she's, as Uhura is rescuing her. Like, her scream changes with the way the transporter is operating. Like, I was a little disappointed with that scene. Like, I like the callback to the motion picture. I mean, her, the screaming was really effective. I thought the visuals could have been a little more disturbing. Like, show, like, the arm coming out of her face or something.

[00:39:15] Or, like, even Axel talked about, like, the guy who can do weird stuff with his joints that they got to do the walk behind him. And I went and watched his thing from America's Got Talent. It was disturbing. Like, it was scary as shit. And I was like, why did you only have him walk a little jinky? Like, get someone like that to do, like, some weird, like, uh, uh, limb twisting for the scene, if nothing else. And then, like, CGI on Erica's face. It was fine.

[00:39:43] I, I do wish they could have done the, had transported her into the wall thing. Because we've heard, like, that gets name dropped in Star Trek so much. But we've never actually seen it. And it's, uh, I understand they couldn't do it with the time and budget. But that would have been a lot of fun. That and, like, the lady who gets stuck in the floor in TNG is like. Oh, you're right. We do have that one. That's horrifying. And she's not even, like, gored up. Yeah, she's just dead. I didn't even notice until this watch. Like, in the shuttle before they board, La'an talks about the Thor.

[00:40:11] Or no, it talks about the MLK and how there was a transporter issue there, too. Like, they went into the buffer and never came back kind of thing. Yeah. It's like, oh, I didn't even hear that the first time I watched it. Transporting is terrifying. So when did you guys realize the crew was not the crew? Because for me, it was the way Uhura reacted in the transporter scene. It was the point where I was like, Uhura wouldn't be mad at La'an. Like, she would just assume something went wrong. This feels weird. And that's when I was like, I hope these aren't the real characters because this is not Uhura.

[00:40:41] And then it's just like the next scene. They, uh, Pike shoves, uh, Spock into, to Pring's arm. It's hard for me to pinpoint because I, again, have only seen it once. And, like, the timeline is a little jumbled, especially when you have to turn your face away from the screen. But Pike's fingers, for me, were the signifier. Like, this isn't, they're not going to do this. Like, they're not going to do this and then have him, a scene later where Mbenga's like, Did you have to go across all four knuckles, specifically?

[00:41:10] Like, do you know how much easier this would be to fix if you adjust on your fingertips? Like, and Pike's face when he's doing that? I was like, okay, this is not him. Like... So you thought it was them, but them kind of taken over by the ghosts already when they were strapping Spock down. I was like, okay, now they're all affected. But then when he was doing that, the face that Anson Mount made, I was like, these are not them. Like, this is his way of saying, like, this is a sick and twisted projection of us.

[00:41:40] Because, like, I love cooking. And, like, this is so gross. Yeah. I think Una, like, slicing open her stomach a little bit. And I was kind of surprised because watching back, I'm like, oh, that wasn't actually as gory as I remembered it being. Whereas Sam Kirk was exactly as gory as I remembered it being. And the blood splatter on the camera, like they mentioned, like, yeah, that's a real thing. A really good shot. A really good little scene.

[00:42:07] But, yeah, I think the way Una was acting was like, okay, I'm sure nobody is here but these three. The question I do have, though, is, is it a shared hallucination slash manifestation? Because, like, it's the same characters and they're all doing different things, right? Right. It's weird that, like, Kirk sees these five beam down. It doesn't have to be those same five for everyone else. And I'm sure the answer is, like, well, if you use different characters, then you'll know right away that something is off.

[00:42:36] But, yeah, I mean, and it is like, I don't know. There's always a thing in horror where you go, wait a minute. But it's the same as watching any episode of Trek, right? Where you're like, well, you got to let this thing go to finish the story. So I'm not mad at that. But no, no, I mean, it's the we didn't have an hour and a half to two hours to tell this story. So, yeah, I feel like they did incredibly well keeping it a question for as long as they were able to.

[00:43:03] Now, the last thing I will say on that is because we find out that it's not really Pike and he didn't really cut his fingers off and all these things. Sam's not really dead. I was like, oh, good. Spock didn't really get his ears cut off. Like, Kirk may not actually have been impaled. And for them to be like, nope, that happened. I was like, come on. Oh, no. When you see that Spock's holding the scissors himself. Yeah. I just. Yeah. I'm not watching for hints.

[00:43:33] I'm watching purely on emotion at that point. And to Starship's point about, like, caring about these characters more. I think that was Starship. Maybe it was the person before. Anyway, like a lot of the times I think I said in the writer's interview, I'll go into a ghost story kind of arms crossed. But here, like a lot of the stuff that doesn't normally work for me in a ghost story movie worked because I love these characters. Because we know these characters beyond the confines of this episode.

[00:44:01] Usually in a movie, we're introduced to characters and we know horrible stuff is going to happen to them. And we only see the ramifications of that stuff through the lens and tone of this one movie. But we know these horrible things that happen to them will have ramifications later on in a puppet episode and all the other types of episodes that we're going to get later on. And I already have 30 plus hours of time invested in these characters.

[00:44:24] So it works so much better here for me and kind of made me be like, I think more TV shows need to do like a straight horror episode in the run of their series. Because it works beyond the confines of a single two-hour movie. And the stakes feel raised because it's like, well, we know Laon's not around or talked about in TOS. Like any week for her could be the week. Yeah. You know, like we have a kind of trust where it's like, no, they won't do that to us.

[00:44:52] But it's like, I think it's part of what makes this work is you're like, I don't know, maybe she can't be saved now. Or maybe she's done with Starfleet after this. Like it totally works. People are assuming this is the beginning of the end of line. And I'm curious, like I'm wondering why people are, and I guess it's because they know she's not in TOS. They're like, we all know like something happens to her. I'm kind of with you, Jesse. I think it might be like a temporal agent thing or maybe now it's Division 12. That's where she ends up.

[00:45:20] But like people seem pretty certain that she's going to like die or sacrifice herself or something. And I didn't pick up that from this episode, but I can see where they're coming from. I'm not getting those vibes. Yeah. Like obviously her story has an ending. Yeah. She's always dealt with trauma. Most likely in this series. But yeah, I don't know. She dealt with her big issue. She dealt. Yeah. This is. Yeah. This is an underlying thing with her. You know, they mentioned you're not a con. You're not a monster. Right. Monster. No. How was it, Jesse?

[00:45:50] Monster. Thank you. I was waiting for the ghost to say that. Like it would have been really funny. Well, so I do like I have not seen anything past this that makes me think I'm correct about this. But I will say I think she ends up in Division 12 and that's a highly classified space. And that's why, you know, no contact, et cetera. But if she does, we have got to make a La'an video edit with a D12 song.

[00:46:17] Like it can be my band or like whatever other D12 song you want to put in it, but it has to be there. Now, I do also have to say, I know you guys don't, you know, you may feel differently about jump scares than I do. But open Pike Night Trivia pop quiz. God damn it. They literally always forget about it. How do I keep forgetting about it? You've warned us. That's what makes it good. You tell us ahead of time.

[00:46:46] What is the name of the scary ghost security officer character? Rose Harper. Fuck. That's one on one, gentlemen. Good work, Cam. Or phase error. Good call on that, Jesse. Thank you very much. That's an anagram of phase error if you didn't watch our. Oh, nice. Which is like, because I was desperate. I was like, what happened? Like, did they accidentally fly to hell? Is this an actual straight up ghost?

[00:47:16] Is it a phase, you know, phase variance issue? And yeah, Rose Harper. Anagram for phase error, which apparently was news to the writer. So I think I may not have been, may not have hit the nail on the head there. But like, it's still a cool little bit of synchronicity. Good work, Cam. Thank you. All right. Let's go ahead and hear from our caller and our good buddy, Newman. Newman, the space hippie from Movies for Days.

[00:47:41] This was a very horror episode with lots of clear inspirations, but none more clear than Event Horizon. Does that make two accidental R.I.P. Sam Neill episodes in a row? Little details. I kind of bumped on Let's Boldly Go, much like the last episode using Strange New Worlds within the dialogue. I'm not a fan of this sort of winking at the audience meta dialogue.

[00:48:05] I particularly liked Dan's demise or Sam's slaughter. The gore was intense and beautiful. Another big thing I loved was the line from Laonda Kirk when she says, Your little boy is going to die just like you at the end of a blade bleeding out in a dark corner of space. That was genuinely chilling. Gia Sandu's performance also, I think, deserves special mention as it was nuanced and terrifying.

[00:48:32] And while we're talking about things that are genuinely terrifying, Anson Mount's menacing smile while chopping up his own hand. Chef's kiss. I really appreciate how at the end of the episode, all three of them get consoled separately, but they're all still clearly haunted by the experience. This isn't sort of a, hey, it's all going to be all right ending. I think I've had enough personally. I would love it if we could be done with horror stuff, at least episodes that are so explicitly

[00:49:00] a tiny Star Trek horror movie. I'd be good if we were done with that for the rest of season. Newman the Space Hippie out. That took a turn at the end. Wouldn't it be chef's cut rather than chef's kiss? I'm sorry. I'm just picturing they hit us with another horror episode this season. Two out of 10. Like, huh, again? Or like, it turns out the puppet episode is actually also a straight horror episode. Yeah. There are puppet horror films. It's felt everywhere.

[00:49:32] Yeah. I mean, we haven't talked yet about Anson and his performance, but again, like this man is like, give me something other than Pike to play and I am so happy. Yes. Like, obviously he's great at Pike, but like, he just, it just felt like the stepfather or Dr. Giggles, like the smile, even before that finger chopping when he like straps, Spock in and he gives a smile. It's so good. I cheered when Tupring zipped out of the Michael Myers bag. Like, I have long wanted more of her and Spock.

[00:50:02] I'm so glad I got it in this episode. Even if she's not real, it was, it was beautiful stuff and she was amazing. And okay. So Spock looks at the body bag that has the name of one of the crew members and shows that it was a Vulcan crew member. So do the ships have pre-printed body bags for everybody on the ship when they take off from space dock? Well, I'm pretty sure that what he sees at the end is what it really looks like. So that would have been part of his. And I love that. I don't know if anybody in our calls mentions that.

[00:50:30] I love the reveal that sick bay is a charnel house that they've just all been hallucinating. It's they just walked past these like horribly mutilated, decaying bodies. Never, never the wiser bloodstains. I mean, it was, that was a great little touch. And, um, yeah, uh, to bring, I was like, man, this is, I don't care that she's not there. It's a great little capper. Or it's a great conversation to, to do what it does.

[00:51:00] And like the writer and director said, like, yeah, it's podcast to end up somewhere at a certain point when the, then the DOS starts. So it's good. I really enjoy the work. I think for me, what makes Pike's turn so effective is it's like the cooking is the warm part of Pike. Like that's the part of Pike where we're like, well, we know we're safe. Like the episode has been resolved. He's cooking a meal. Everything's cool.

[00:51:24] He's, you know, being dad like, and it's like, what a way to pardon the phrasing, twist the knife on us. Like take the one thing that is usually, oh, we know we're safe. We know everything's happy and warm and turn it into that. Like it's really effective. Like it's effective because I was upset. Like, so I, I, my head is off to Robbie because like the, the choices they made in this episode,

[00:51:55] although it's not an episode, I would have said, give me this are very well made in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. So like, I'm not a huge fan of these haunted house stories or like psychological horror as much. I like my horror to be more external and it's thread. I like monsters, slashers, zombies, or at least like the person possessed. Isn't the main character. The main character is facing off against a possessed person.

[00:52:21] One of the reasons I don't like is like, I feel the, the villains, the monsters, whatever the ghosts, like, what do they want? What are their motivations? What's their deal? What is Rose Harper's deal on this? I don't know. And that's one of my problems with this episode is like, okay, she's creepy, I guess, but all she is, is a mirror for La'an. And, and then the other thing is like, yeah, if everyone, if the haunted house is just like showing people whatever they want to think all the time, like there's no rules. You can kind of just have anything creepy shadows.

[00:52:50] Walk behind for no reason. There's no reason that happens except to spook out the audience at the same time. I'm love. I love that. That seems in there. If you're going to do this genre, you got to play the tropes. I get it. And then the other thing that I guess the big thing, and I'm getting to like what, which story I like the most. The big thing I don't like is when the characters just get mind controlled at some point, they just get mind controlled and it takes their agency away. I feel like Kirk and La'an don't have a ton of agency in this episode. Again, Kirk believing his son is down the corridor and in the cables.

[00:53:20] I don't buy that. He's basically mind controlled. La'an, chill the freak out at the end. You were mind controlled. People get mind controlled all the time in Star Trek. You weren't. That wasn't you wanting to kill Kirk. That was the ghost. Okay. That's why I loved the Spock scene so much. Seeing him resist and seeing him vulcan his way through it all is what made it feel super Star Trek horror to me and felt like a new twist on the haunted house.

[00:53:46] Again, I kind of learned to love the Kirk and La'an stuff for some of the reasons I talked about. Also, it's just great character stuff for these characters we know and love. But for me, the Spock stuff just was magnificent. All those scenes I could watch all day long. They are so, so good. Also, classic Trek. Again, Dana saves the ship. Spock saves the ship. Wesley saves the ship. Seven saves the ship. But it is like, you could have done that with any of these characters because it's James

[00:54:16] T. Kirk. If it was him that figured everything out, you'd be like, I believe that. It's also La'an. If she had been the one to figure it out, you'd be like, I believe that. Having Spock do it, I think, is brilliant because he is looking so hard from the start for the logical answer for it. And it's like, I really love, I agree with you completely. I love where they landed with him. Yeah. And I love how even his logic chant feels like something out of a horror movie.

[00:54:44] It feels like, I think Axel described it as sort of like a witch's spell or something. Yeah. And so it was logic, but it also still kind of felt like he had to cast the spell to dispel the evil. Well, the original cut was he was sitting there phasing spring and he's like, you're not holding the scissors. I'm holding the scissors. And then she's like, what's that smell? And then she falls over and then a bunch of ships blow up. Yeah. Yeah. She was originally played by Brad Pitt. Yeah. Um, I, I, I agree.

[00:55:12] Spock story is definitely the most solid there. I, I don't know that Rose Harper is haunting the Griffin. I think the Griffin is the ghost. I think this is truly a event horizon haunted ship. I think she is La'an's ghost. And so she was the ghost that we focused on because this was a La'an story. I think if a different person had been there, it would have been a different ghost, mirror ghost to them.

[00:55:41] Do you think someone named Rose Harper was a security officer and got paranoid on the ship and beamed people out? I feel like any of that could have just been made up to, because it suits La'an. I mean, she's punching the wall. I love that shot of like, oh, hey, look, somebody punched the wall. And then we get to see her punching the wall. And absolutely great visual storytelling. But I think if it had been Uhura on that ship, it would have been a very different situation.

[00:56:10] If it had been Ortegas, a very different situation. It would have been Gorn related, probably something like that. Um, and which is still funny because it's like, no, La'an was the Gorn person. And all of a sudden Ortegas is the Gorn, the Gorn character. But, uh, I think, I think it's the, the creeping madness. And we have already established we're two episodes into the season. And in episode one, we established her. She's got some fear that she is broken somehow because of her genetic heritage.

[00:56:40] And so I, I think none of that can be a reliable story. And I don't think Rose Harbor's in the window of that ship, but the ship is on it. Here's a, here's a pure hypothetical. So we saw, um, here's a thing that's really cool. When Kirk is opening his bag, a copy of what book falls out? Master and Commander. Yes. Now, very cool. I promise you we will watch that.

[00:57:03] But if there's a scene towards the end where La'an's back in her quarters, she's trying to breathe. She's, you know, trying to calm down. We know she likes to read old pulpy novels. If there was a novel about a supernatural investigator named Rose Harper sitting on her desk, would you be like, oh, okay. Like, would that bother you? Or would you be like, oh, cool. Like, there's some, there's some connective thread.

[00:57:31] Cause I know a lot of folks have come away with it from this going, what is the deal? Like, what, what is the deal? Why did it happen? What is that? What is the Rose Harper motivation? Like, is it, is she, was she really there? What's going on here? Sure. I feel that trope is missing from this episode. You know, I think that would work for me. You know, on one end you have the shining where I don't need, I think Stanley Kubrick has said, I don't know why Jack Nicholson's in that photo. It's just supposed to feel creepy.

[00:57:59] But most ghost stories, that's the thing you learn at the end. You learn what happened to this person, why they're haunting and all that. Like you kind of get that backstory tied up in some way. That's kind of the story you're getting told in the ghost story. And that, yeah, it's just not here. And so that at least would have been like, oh, that explains the visions we saw. We don't necessarily know what the ship is or what's causing these visions, but we know where those specific visions came from would have been something. And then the last question on that I'll have is, do you guys think that will be resolved?

[00:58:30] Like, we know Robbie's coming back. We know this, this matters to La'an. Do we think this part will be resolved? If it is, and because it was set up, I hope it is straight up just like, oh, hey, D12, like two days in, they figured out what was going on. It was, and then it's just like, oh, all right. So what's happening this week? Just everybody's like, oh yeah, no, it was a weird little alien gas leak. Yeah. This was a typical ship from hell situation. Yeah. Everybody's dealt with that. Yep.

[00:58:59] So I have some, not specific knowledge about what happens in the future, but vague enough knowledge. But so I'm going to stick to what we've been told to know. We've been told this episode has ramifications later. Robbie felt like he was implying division 12 comes back. Certainly when I first watched it, I was like, oh, we're not done with Rose Harper. That's what she does. The little finger thing in the window. It's creepy. She's coming back. And then I had to remember, remind myself about Cybok and go, okay, no, strange. Yeah. It doesn't fall. Yeah.

[00:59:28] It doesn't play by those rules. So maybe not. So I don't know. I do think we're going to get another horary episode at some point that deals with La'an and stuff that happened in this episode. Will we get division 12 figuring out this ghost ship? Will we get some more answers on Rose Harper? I hope so. If we do, that would make that previous complaint I just talked about, not getting closure work a lot better. But I don't know. I don't know.

[00:59:54] Well, I do know we have a few more callers to hear from, actually like seven more callers to hear from. And I know I want to watch ghost ship again now that we keep saying the words ghost ship. So first up, let's hear from K. Sarasara. Greetings. Open Pike night, folks. K. Sarasara here. Pardon me. My gut is in my throat after watching that episode. Oh, yeah.

[01:00:21] So I'm focusing on just a few little moments to take my brains away from. I'm not a gore fan. I'm not a horror fan. It's not for me. But it was a fun episode. The rictus grin that Pike flashes. Wow. Entrails. Frozen entrails in space. Pretty nifty.

[01:00:45] But, you know, I kept thinking, oh, so it's Impaknor meets The Naked Time, The Naked Now. Okay, cool. Let's roll with it. And I honestly did not expect for them to lean into La'ana's con so quickly. But, hey, that's the way things go sometimes. Onward and upward. Have a great week, everyone.

[01:01:14] Don't sweat too much if you're in a heat dome. Laters. Man, I've got to watch Impaknoir. And I think everybody's in a heat dome. Like, I appreciate the call out of that. Because it has been miserable to go outside for a while now. I'm actually surprised that it took four seasons to get to the con of it all with La'ana personally. Okay, so and that's the one part where I was like, okay, I think I have this figured out. It's everybody's biggest fear, right? Like, her biggest fear is that she would become a con.

[01:01:45] Kirk's biggest fear is that he'll be a bad dad and not be close enough to his kid. But Spock's biggest fear is to pring? I don't know. Spock's biggest fear is lack of logic, right? I think lack of logic and probably a little bit of like, did I, you know, am I making the right choices in my dating life? Well, I think it's like, it's, you know, am I too human and am I too vulcan?

[01:02:12] Like, here he's having the Vulcan side stripped away and that. Yeah. And we've talked a lot about the performances here. Ethan Peck, like, very effective. Like, seeing Spock upset is like, I mean, we've, you know, we've seen him throw a bowl of soup across the room and hit a wall with it before. But like, seeing him genuinely scared and incredibly uncomfortable and like worried was very effective.

[01:02:40] Like, I'm really impressed and continue to be impressed with Ethan Peck. Like, there hasn't been an episode where I'm like, oh, he, you know, he really dropped the ball here because I don't think that's happened. But every time he shifts into a new gear, it is like this nice reassurance. Like, oh yeah, man, this guy knows how to work his instrument. Yeah. I'm so glad that both the writer and the director pointed out the shot where he slowly sets his stuff down on the floor and walks away.

[01:03:08] Because I don't think I would have noticed it if they hadn't mentioned it, but they're right. You do not see that sort of thing in Star Trek very often of just the yeoman's work of setting things down. And it is so effective in that scene. There's also a bit later on at the end when Chapel's fixing him up and she says something like, I'll give my compliments to the chef. And clearly she has not been told what sort of visions Spock saw because he gives like the subtlest little like grimace at that line.

[01:03:38] And it's so good. That's just another one of those moments I picked up on the third watch where I'm like, this episode's so good. I'm glad you brought that up because like with Pike's story, I don't know that Chapel's story was necessary either. Unless they're really setting something up. But I'm like, well, we saw her war history. I don't know. Both of those conversations I felt there were better versions of both of those conversations.

[01:04:06] I would say if I had a problem with one more than the other, it's the Chapel and Spock conversation. Because I'm like... Really? I get the... It's like, it's not La'Anne and Spock? It's like, Chapel is... All right, I'm spacing. Did they actually get married at the end of Wedding Bell Blues? No. But she is engaged to be married. I'm going with that assumption here. I'm like, but La'Anne and Spock never talk at the end of this episode. Yeah.

[01:04:32] It's a little bit strange because it's like, yeah, going back to logic means ending your relationship with La'Anne invariably at some point. Right, right, right. And I don't know. That was just also so weird to me. That's something I know we can't say too much, but I have seen a number of people be like, ah, it's too bad we're seeing the end, the beginning of the end of La'Anne and Spock. And I'm like, really? Because they barely interacted in this episode. But they interacted twice. And I loved both moments.

[01:05:00] I loved Spock being like, hey, is something wrong? And the farewell kiss in sickbay. The good luck kiss. It's so good. It's so sweet and tender in just such a small moment. You know Spock is really, he's avoiding talking to her because he doesn't want to have to say, I was in a terrible situation and all I could do was manifest to Pring's painted toes. Yes, right. Yeah. She's going to be like, excuse me? I mean, I know what you're saying, John, but I do love that moment with Chapel. Like, it's a human moment.

[01:05:29] And honestly, as Chapel's been depicted in Strange New Worlds, it's a very Chapel moment for her to be like. Yeah. So it was your other ex-girlfriend you thought of. Okay. Hmm. So you're saying there's a chance. Let's go ahead and hear from our friend Michelle. Hey, Open Pike Knight. This was a terrifying episode of Star Trek. And yes, Trek has done gore before, but this brought it to a whole other level.

[01:05:56] And yeah, I'm thinking about that Sam Kirk scene that's living in my nightmares. I am so excited that so many fans are making kind of Crusher Connections this week, including Cameron, who made one in the writer and director interview. So if you want to hear Cameron's, give those a listen. They were great. My Crusher Connection is the episode Genesis, not just for the body horror mutation aspect, but also because it was directed by Gates McFadden, one of the first women directors in Star Trek.

[01:06:26] And now we have the wonderful Axel Carolyn to add to that list. And I thought her cinematography was wonderful. The jump scares, the everything that went into this episode. I love the way it was shot. A great homage to horror. I did have a little nitpick with the end. I love the X-Files, but this is Star Trek. So I felt that we needed to tether this to science just a little bit.

[01:06:52] It didn't have to be completely explained, but I would have loved for them to throw out a theory. But my favorite part of this episode was the character development for Spock, La'Anne, and Kirk. And I'm going to highlight the Kirk brothers. Paul Wesley and Sam Janot did an amazing job, and I wish we would get more scenes with them together. Also, David Marcus.

[01:07:15] Just that scene where La'Anne, a descendant of Khan, is impaling Kirk and predicting the death of David accurately. Oh, that scene gave me chills. Highlight of the episode. I can't wait to hear your thoughts. Live long and prosper. So good. Thank you for the shout-out, Michelle. And I love your connection. I hadn't made that. But yeah, 100% forgot Gates had directed Genesis, which is a lot of fun.

[01:07:44] And yeah, I know some other people bumped on the end, on the explanation part of the end as well. And I just explained how I wanted a little more of explaining the ghost story. I'm kind of okay with them leaving the science bit out of it, though. I mean, we haven't talked too much about Division 12. This episode gives us Division 12. I think there will be some sort of spinoff of Division 12 in the future. They've got to. X-Files and Star Trek is just too juicy a nibble not to take a bite out of. And people will remember this episode for the one that really set that up.

[01:08:15] But I think the difference between a horror story and so many Star Trek stories is simply the scientific explanation. If you take out the scientific explanation, it goes from a Star Trek story we've seen hundreds of times to horror. And I'm okay with that. I don't watch this and go like, Star Trek is doing supernatural. Because we're all Star Trek fans. We all know the sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[01:08:42] So many times the Enterprise crew has dealt with things just like this. And they don't know the answer. But the writers always give them some sort of hypothesis. And that's the writers telling the audience, no, this is what really happened. Even though there wasn't enough evidence for the crew to make any... All they know is interdimensional beings doing weird stuff. And everything else is just a guess. So I love that they kind of just left that part out. Look, we're sitting into Division 12. It's a mystery. Personally, I think this is probably like...

[01:09:10] The Gryphon ship got connected to some interdimensional aliens. And now they are using it as a lab to be like, Let's see what these weird flesh monkeys do when we kind of pull out their greatest fears. To me, that's my guess of what the Gryphon is. Which is perfectly scientific. And Star Trek has given us those stories. I can think of like three off the top of my head from TNG alone. But again, you take out that kind of explanation and it suddenly becomes spooky. And I'm here for it. And we don't have the Q character.

[01:09:40] Who is arguably just a huge narrative cop-out. But we love Q, right? There's nobody who's... I'm sure there are people that are like, I can't stand Q episodes. But it's like, There did used to exist in Star Trek a way to go, It basically was magic. Don't worry about it. Like, he's an alien, but he's a magic alien. Well, we do have the Q character around. Just not that. Yeah. And this is a very specific note, Michelle.

[01:10:09] I want to say thank you so much for saying a whole other instead of a whole nother. Like, that just... I really appreciate that. That's the kind of geek that I am. So thank you. Well, we do have a whole nother group of callers here. Damn you! What's up, Open Pike Knight? It is Steve from the Battlestage Theatrical Podcast. Jesse and I already have talked about it a little bit. He can tell you how that conversation went.

[01:10:37] But John has tasked me with pointing out all the pop culture references. The silliest one, I think, is the late Captain Taggart has to be a reference to Galaxy Quest and Commander James Quincy Taggart. Silly how the funniest Star Trek was then used in thus far the most horrific Star Trek. And it gets even more horrific when Captain Pike starts lopping off his fingertips. He brought the apron. I thought that was a nice touch.

[01:11:05] But that reminded me of a particularly horrifying episode of Angel where Spike is visited upon a demon who's doing that very same thing. Sam going out the window, very reminiscent of Alien Resurrection. I know we don't talk about that one. But I got to say, unlike the last episode where I was kind of calling every single beat, this one had me guessing and wondering the entire time. Like, for instance, I kept going back and forth on whether or not the landing party was there or not. Up until he went out the window, I didn't know if Sam was actually there.

[01:11:36] Ortegas being murdered by the transporter was very reminiscent of the slow motion picture beginning. And I thought that was an interesting tribute there. Yeah, the episode really should have been called The Griffin Event taking place on a horizon. And I honestly hope that the late, great Sam Neill got a chance to see this episode before his untimely passing. What a legend. That's all the pop culture that I can think of. Live long and prosper. Even Steve's delivery of his references are dense with references. Yes.

[01:12:06] That was amazingly well constructed, man. And I got to give folks just a quick peek to the text thread between Steve and I. So he sends me a screenshot, like one of the promo shots, right, from this episode. And he says, I don't know what this is, but I'm here for it. And I said, you are not ready. And he replied with the gif of Blade saying, I was born ready, mother... And then the next text I have from Steve is, yeah, was not ready.

[01:12:39] Hell yeah. This episode is making people feel things and I love it. Who was it who just called? Who was like, I hate horror. And then she went through and described all of the horror scenes and how she kind of had fun with it. Yeah, case or I. And again, I, yeah, yeah. I think, again, it's kind of to that conspiracy thing. I think, you know, we, and the motion picture, like these were horrific things that we probably didn't know how we felt about at the time. But as, as time went on, we looked back, we're like, I can't get that out of my head. Like it wormed its way in there. It con wormed its way in there.

[01:13:09] And it's probably going to become something you kind of revisit at least mentally, if not sitting down to watch the scary episode. And I think McCoy has found more and more support over the years for being like, I do not want to transport anyone if I can avoid it. Yes. People have come around to where they're like, yeah, he's probably right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:13:29] And also, you know, Alien Resurrection, not a great alien movie, not the worst alien movie, but also it's the same guy who made Amelie and City of Lost Children. You need to watch Alien Resurrection. Remember, it's a French film and it's not a terrible film. The first, it's one of those movies, the first two thirds, it's the best alien movie you've watched. It's so good. You're like, I didn't know this could exist. When Ripley has the flamethrower and I won't spoil, but burns the room full of things.

[01:13:58] It's one of like the most pulpy and horrific things you've ever seen. And then the last third, you're just like, what happened? The cast of that film, my God, Ron Perlman, Brad Durf, obviously Sigourney Weaver. Oh God, what's his name? Mr. Why with a spoon from Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, the captain. Like his- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That went on a writer. Yeah. I mean, it's an insane- Is Lord his, what's his face in it? Jason Isaacs? Am I wrong about that? Jason Isaacs? No. I'm picturing him.

[01:14:28] It's Brad Durf who's the crazy scientist. No, yeah. I might be thinking of that, the Robin Hood. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's, I would say give Alien Resurrection another shot. Or if you've never seen it, try it out. Okay. But yeah, the last third. Two things here. The one reference Steve didn't mention that was news to me and I think is really cool. So I did spend some portion of this episode going, why is this, like, I know it's called

[01:14:54] the Griffin Incident because it takes place on the Griffin, but like, where does that name come from? Apparently, the Griffin is a ship that got lost on the Great Lakes, sailing from Chicago to Green Bay. And there's rumors of crew mutiny or plague. And people claim to this day that sometimes they still see it on Lake Erie. So I have to imagine the unexplained disappeared ship has got to be a reference to the actual

[01:15:22] Griffin, which I thought was very cool. And while we're on the topic of, you know, the work of directors and is it good? Did we want to see that sort of a thing? I will ask, is there a director that you both would be like, I wish they would give them a Star Trek episode? I mean, for me, it's Jim Jarmusch. I want to see the slowest, talkiest, like most cigarette filled episode. The whole thing is going to take place in a shuttle. Yeah. Like on the way to the conference, not after the conference.

[01:15:52] Like I would watch the hell out of Jim Jarmusch and his Star Trek episode. And what a great way to get Tom Waits into Star Trek. Ah, there you go. Oh, that's a good question. I'll have to think about that one a little bit. I know. I know. Give me till the end of the episode. I'll come up with an answer for the end. All right, let's go ahead and hear from Val. Hey, Open Pike Night. This is Val. So I would say this episode, out of possibly all the ones I have watched, benefited the most from a rewatch for me.

[01:16:22] I mean, I did skip through these sort of gross salmon pike parts that were kind of a little bit too unpleasant for me. I mean, I like horror, but I'm a little bit more of a creepy shapes in the background and someone running to attack you horror person than a gore one. I thought it was really interesting in the rewatch to see just how much they made it apparent that the Enterprise crew wasn't there. I mean, from the moment that they arrive on the ship, they have these oddly flat facial expressions that made them seem weird from the beginning.

[01:16:50] I will admit, I don't really mind our James episodes. So I didn't really mind him being in this one. And his fear of balancing Starfleet with fatherhood was interesting. I enjoy Lan's fears when she hurts and attacks her friends and obviously, like, tries to kill Kirk. That was an interesting storyline. I'm super interested to see where it goes with her this season. I have no idea. But that should be fun to watch. And surprisingly, Spock may have had the most interesting storyline for me.

[01:17:20] Not only did we get to see Tupreng again, which was great because I thought she was awesome in the show, but it was interesting to see almost his fear of balancing his expectations for him. I don't know really where they're going to go for that. Are we going to start to see a little bit more of a TOS Spock by the end of the season? Who knows? Anyways, I'm really excited for how this set up. Once again, a lot of storylines that we're going to see continuing in the season. All right.

[01:17:45] So I have to ask, because Val brought it up, the James Kirk as a father thread. Where did you guys land on that? Because like I said, I've seen people both say, oh, he's better than I thought he was, and he's worse than I thought he was. We know that Sam and Jim's dad may not be the world's greatest father. We know that Sam is a father and he's trying really hard. There is a scene at the end of this episode where Jim does resolve to call Carol and she

[01:18:15] does not pick up the phone, which I think can go either way. You could paint that as, oh, now Carol is being stubborn about it. Or, oh, maybe he waited too long and that's totally on him. I am a person who grew up with a single parent for a long time. And I fell into the trap that a lot of kids do, which is you idolize the parent that isn't there because you can paint that parent as whoever you want them to be.

[01:18:43] It doesn't actually matter who they really are. And I had a moment where I was like, why are things this way? And I was told because I told that person not to have contact with you because I thought it would be better for you. And it completely opened my eyes to like, oh, I have had this twisted wrong the entire time. Like, you're totally right because of these 15 reasons.

[01:19:13] And now knowing that person, you made the right call. And it really helped me work through a lot of resentment and issues that I had up to that point. And now I hold my formerly single parent up on this like impossible pedestal of like, how did you put up with me? You did an amazing job. You're the greatest person who's ever lived. And so these kinds of stories hit me really specifically. And I kind of am finding myself siding with Carol here.

[01:19:43] Like, yeah, if he's going to not be there most of the time, but tells you, hey, I'll make an effort every once in a while. It it might be better for David if you're just like, you know what? Don't. So where did you guys land on this? On one hand, like I think if you're going to do a prequel with James Kirk, I think this is a great story to tell because it's something obviously they just came up with for Wrath of Khan, this backstory about him that we don't get a lot of details on. I think it's interesting to fill it in this way.

[01:20:12] Having, you know, read some of the conversations about this online. I know that people have very strong, sometimes very black and white views on this. So let me preface by just saying this is all my feelings, which is to say, yeah, I think this warmed me towards him. It shows that like. It wasn't a situation of Carol being like, I'd rather you not be in his life and him being like, cool, sure. And walking off like he wanted to be a good dad. This is something he wrestled with.

[01:20:42] I think what we find out is like as much as he wanted to be there for David, he is destined to be a Starfleet captain. That that is his driving goal and he's not going to be able to make the choice. And and so seeing seeing him have to go through and struggle with the choice and the things he's done and learning that, yeah, it's part from his dad. It is interesting that like, I mean, I know you say the stuff about Sam Kirk, but again,

[01:21:12] this is all Jim's projections of Kirk. I don't know if we've ever heard Sam Kirk talk about his family on Strange New Worlds. Maybe he's the more distant father. And when he finally does go back to his kid, he gets himself killed. So I mean, I'll just remind you, Sam Kirk did not talk about being a father in this episode. Jim Kirk imagined Sam Kirk saying he was a bad father in this episode. I kind of have fun with the idea that when he gets back and he has that conversation,

[01:21:41] Sam's like, no, man, I rule as a dad. My kids are cool with it. I do great. Like there are zero issues in our family. Right. But I, you know, like Robbie said, the characters have to be at a certain place when we see them later on or earlier on, like they have to get to a certain place. So this does have to happen.

[01:22:08] And I think it is, you know, this is a, I hate to say it, but where we see Kirk when he interacts with David and like face to face, I don't think Carol answers that call. I don't think she answers it a lot. And I think he takes the jaded hint. He takes the hint, but also it was like, okay, well, I'm fine. I'm just, I'm not a dad then. I'm not like, I am a captain. I'm not a father kind of thing, which sucks, but that's where he has to end up.

[01:22:38] Canon is starting to rear its head here. And I should also say like my views on parenting before having kids and after having kids are two very different views. Like I certainly had certain judgments and thoughts and ideals for me that when they meet reality are very, very different. So I'm not going to sit here and pass judgment on Jim Kirk. And speaking of two very different views, the two that popped into my head are either Steven Soderbergh Star Trek or James Cameron Star Trek.

[01:23:08] Jesse, like I could, I could sit down and thoroughly enjoy either one of those episodes. I'll give him each a two parter, but yeah. Yeah. I, uh, uh, I'd be, I'd be worried about Steven Soderbergh. Um, although I'd want it like, if he just said oceans, I love space. Yeah. Be there in a heartbeat. I went with, you know, not when I had thought of, but when I remember what I was talking

[01:23:33] about and that cue line about space being both beautiful and horrific, it's gotta be Guillermo del Toro. Like man. Right. Let's bring Doug Jones back and put some makeup on him and see both like the horrors of space, but the beauty and romance of it as well. Cameron wants more body horror and terrifying. That's the end to me. Weird creatures. Yeah. All right. Let's, uh, we've got a few more calls here. Let's get through them. Here is our good buddy Trev.

[01:24:00] Hey, it's Trev beaming in from the Fair Letter Franchise podcast to offer my report on the Griffin incident, an episode where I feel like I'm in the minority because this was honestly an all time favorite Stranger Worlds for me. Maybe even top five. My two great media and pop culture loves are Star Trek and even more so the horror genre. But even putting aside that personal preference, I do think this was one of the stronger examples of SNW doing a genre exploration where they just entirely committed to it. Oftentimes when Trek plays genres, whether it's SNW or the other shows, they do so in

[01:24:29] kind of a cheeky way, putting a playful spin on that genre's conventions, but not really going all the way with it. But here, Robbie Thompson and Axel Caron expertly delivered a true horror showcase that touched on various kinds of horror. Psychological horror, ghost stories, and even the gore fests. I know some are upset at the lack of explanation, but there's a great history of horror tales that don't offer answers, as that's often scarier. The point here wasn't to solve the mystery, leave that to those nerds in Division 12, but rather to explore what it does to our characters and what it reveals about them.

[01:24:58] And I thought that was all handled really well with Spock, Lon, and Kirk. Loved the creepy but accurate prophetic statement about David's future. I will say, though, I really didn't like Pike hand-waving away Lon, stabbing Kirk, omitting it from the report and offering a drink and a friendly chat rather than any sort of temporary leave or mandatory counseling. I know this is part of a season arc for Lon, and I know this show and Trek in general have a history of not taking mental health as seriously as they should. But even putting that aside, she stabbed a fellow Starfleet officer.

[01:25:25] For Pike not to treat that seriously and consider her a potential danger to herself or others is a dereliction of responsibility and makes him look dumb at best and a really bad captain at worse. Still, overall, this was a banger for me. Happy Summerween, everyone. Do you think Pike has had a moment alone in his ready room where he's like, what is it about me that makes people on my ship think it's okay to just stab people? Like, Lahan has done it. Benga has done it.

[01:25:53] At this point, they need to have a series of touch-based meetings where he's like, are you planning to or have you in the last six months stabbed anyone? Like, hey, this crew is walking so Data can run later on when he stabs Troy. Well, we know Ortega's got stabbed by a Lerpa. We don't know the circumstances surrounding that. Andy Gorn. Like, there's just, there's a lot of stabbings in the show. Like, which, you know, if it has to be that or gross eyeball scenes, I think I'll take the stabbings, personally.

[01:26:23] Maybe that's just me. Um, but I do, I think that there could have been something in the Pike scene or maybe one additional Pike scene where he's talking to Kirk and he's like, you know, I just worry that when I put this in my report or Lon's career could be over or there'll be this or there'll be that. And Kirk says something like, don't put it in the report. It's not her fault. You know, she was clearly not of the right mind or this, that, or the other thing.

[01:26:52] Or even just, you know, show me a division 12 officer pulling visual logs from the ship. And so we know that somebody knows that she stabbed Kirk. Like I, I, again, I'm, I think it falls into the umbrella of the thing was not explained. Um, but I also think it's a valid point. Like, did we ever see Picard's report of data taking over the whole ship?

[01:27:22] I know. We, do we kind of assume it happened? Maybe I just wolf three, five, nine, Picard's back at work the next day. Well, no, he did go to France for like three days, but yeah. Yeah. Three days. You're right. Uh, but, but again, like did La'Anne stab Kirk or did the Gilson stab Kirk? Yeah. Like Pike did some pretty unbecoming things when he lost his memories on, on Rigel six, seven.

[01:27:47] Uh, you know, they all, you know, revealed secrets in the musical. Did they, they were worried they might reveal secrets in the musical. They weren't of their right mind. Like it, it, it is part of star Trek. Cause of like, there's stuff in space that will take you over. You're not responsible. Yeah. There's gotta be some kind of amnesty. Yeah. Clearly this will still have ramifications for, for La'Anne. And clearly Pike did not recognize that and did not give her good advice. Again, the scene before Mbinga says they survived.

[01:28:17] They're not okay. Uh, so I, I do think there might be some intentional intentionality here with them. All right. Let's hear from Katrine. Hi, open piking. I just watched episode two and I have very mixed feelings about it. Yes. There were a few nice scenes like the one with Kirk being a boy scout, boy scout, and apparently always bringing a torch, but I'm not a fan of horror and body horror is probably my least favorite genre. All right.

[01:28:46] Because of that, this episode just wasn't for me. What disappointed me even more was that there wasn't really a scientific explanation at the end. One of the things I love about Star Trek is that even when something seems supernatural or terrifying, there's eventually a rational explanation. Two examples from The Next Generation comes to mind. In Night Terrors, the crew's hallucinations are caused by a lack of REM sleep.

[01:29:15] And in Subrosa, the ghost turns out to be an alien life form. This episode, however, didn't really give me that kind of scientific explanation and I missed that. But I'd also like to share something positive. I was at FETCON in Bonn, Germany this year and had the chance to see almost the entire Strange New Worlds cast. Their individual panels were great, but the group panel was really something special. The chemistry between them is just amazing.

[01:29:45] The highlight of the whole weekend for me was meeting and chatting with Melissa Navia when I got her autograph. Thanks for the podcast. Live long and prosper. Yeah. Yeah. We had a lot of listeners go to FETCON this year and it sounds like Strange New Worlds made a strong showing there. So that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Again, I think Division 12 is a great tool in this episode and could be a great tool going forward.

[01:30:12] Because I mean, I do agree that like I don't want Star Trek to just be like, it's ghost. It's supernatural. Like that's that. You're right. That's not Star Trek. Like I 100% agree, but I am completely fine with them being like, look, we're not going to get the answer. This crew's not going to get the answer, but we're going to give it to Division 12 and they'll eventually figure it out. I'm interested that no one has brought up schisms yet because to me, like that is one of the I definitely thought that's one of the creepiest episodes of TNG, right?

[01:30:40] Like, yeah, you you only see the effects for the first three quarters of that episode and it is upsetting and it's close. Riker finding out his bone removed and reattached to fractions of a centimeter apart or whatever. Yes. One of the most terrifying moments of Star Trek. And I think it could fit eventually, you know, maybe there will be a novel or something where it's like, yeah, this was that species first try. Okay.

[01:31:08] Like, yeah, but yeah, that's one of those things I'm thinking of like interdimensional aliens running tests on us feel super creepy and supernatural, but you can give it the thing. The other one was what? Nagilum basically the same thing. Just some interdimensional scientists running experiments on us. 100% a ghost ship episode though. If you take all that explanation away, one Riker, one enterprise. Maybe the dumbest war. Imagine a war in this episode. Oh my God.

[01:31:40] Beheadings are today. I did think about, I remember TNG like always like they would send a war to try to open a door and he wouldn't be able to, and then data would have to come up and do it. I kind of thought of that in the scene where the three of them have that door that's been sealed shut again. Like that's an explanation. I would have liked to get something like, why was this door sealed? And why did other people try to get in? Like you set up a question and you never answered it. That's the kind of explanation I wanted, but I do love when La'an is like, Kirk, why don't you go look over there?

[01:32:09] And the Vulcan and the Ogden are going to open the door, you sissy boy. Yank off the middle. Like, all right, we're good. All right. We have one more caller. And then I do have a conversation I'd like to have after it. Here is Michy. Hi, guys. It's Michy. Unfortunately, this episode just isn't for me. It's not that I dislike the horror elements, but the story and even the attempt at an explanation is completely missing.

[01:32:35] It feels like the only goal of this episode was to terrify those three characters as much as possible by any means necessary. Logic or reasons didn't matter because there was no intention to explain anything anyway. That makes the whole episode feel incomplete, which is likely why it didn't work for me. That said, there are still many things I do like about it. The actors were fantastic. The ghosts, the makeup and the overall visuals were great.

[01:33:04] I loved seeing the bring again and Pike's wicked grin during the knife scene was brilliant. I also liked the choice of pairings at the end. Uhura, shearing up Kirk, Shepel with Spock and Pike with Laan. Although I think we can all agree that mental health care in Star Trek leave something to be desired. Unfortunately, that perfectly reflects the role mental health currently plays in the real world.

[01:33:31] All in all, it is not my favorite episode, but it does have a few nice elements in it. I wish they had actually shown section 12 work instead of just talking about it. That certainly wouldn't have heard the story. That's it for me. Have a great day and lots of fun next week in Vegas. Bye.

[01:34:00] And the fake stuff. I feel like part of the reason a lot of people might not like this beyond it just being straight horror is it's real mean to the cast. Yeah, I as a person who feels that way, like it was very mean. Now, I I tend to forgive that sort of thing for the sake of the story. and having spoke with Robbie and having listened to Cam speak with Axel,

[01:34:29] I'm like, I can appreciate this. Like you had a goal that you set out to achieve, you got there and I think you did a good job of it. But it is hard. Like part of the reason I can watch a Event Horizon or a slasher movie, that kind of a thing is like, I don't know these people. Like sure, like yeah, kill the entire high school cast of Scream again, like whatever.

[01:34:58] But even in some of the more recent Scream movies, I'm like, was that necessary? Like that's a little mean and gross. But I mean, I think it's a valid way to come at this episode of like, I don't want to see this happen to Sam Kirk. I don't want to see Spock's ears get cut off. I don't want to see this Pike scene. And I mean, to the point where right before I, you know, right before Pike actually drops the knife,

[01:35:27] I'm like, I'm not going to watch this. Like I'm going to look away from this. And at that point, I'm starting to be like, this isn't real. This is part of the vision, but it kind of doesn't matter because I'm still seeing it happen to the characters that I love. Now, I think the inverse argument of that is that's why it's effective. Like if this was Asha, for example, if they had brought Asha along on the away team, just because we have very little connection to her at this point, and then they had this horrible stuff happen to her, it would be more like,

[01:35:57] okay, so you set up this character to be a total Ensign Gamble, right? Like you would have a level of cynicism about it that might help shield you from the effectiveness of the storytelling. So I'm interestingly in both camps where I'm like, yes, this was too mean. Also, I get it and I'm fine with it. Yeah, that's an interesting conversation. You mentioned some things. I feel like it would be meaner if it was Asha, like for the purposes you said.

[01:36:28] I just always think of Jurassic World, like there are rules to horror movies and who and how you kill people. And I still feel like the babysitter that gets torn in two between the pterodactyl and the sea monster or something like, that is the kind of death you give to the character no one likes that you want to see go down. Like she was just, she was given the worst job on the island. She was doing her best. Like they did not depict her in an evil enough way to give her that death. So there's definitely, I mean, that's a valid question.

[01:36:57] You can be too mean to characters. But I'm also glad we had mentioned like schisms from TNG because I, the visions I can separate. I can disassociate like, this is Vision Pike, this is not real Pike, do whatever you want to him. As soon as Sam gets sucked up against the window, I know it's a vision and I know it's just trying to fuck with Kirk, James Kirk, and I'm okay with that. What they do to these three characters is harsh, but I don't think it's any more harsh than what happens to Riker

[01:37:25] in multiple episodes in TNG than what they did to Picard with the Borg and all the visions he had of the Borg. What we're going to see coming up in DS9. Like they've been mean to characters before. I'm sure. I tell you, yeah, Miles O'Brien is going to watch this episode and be like, you guys had it off easy. Once you had to deal with this week. Once you were there for six hours. Oh, boo hoo. Exactly. Like these are brave, heroic characters.

[01:37:55] They can deal with it. Jim Kirk can get stabbed. Spock, again, he's the one who won. He's the one who beat the ship. So, I was happy to see what happened to him. I like that perspective, Cam, and yes, bringing O'Brien into it, it was like, meh, it wasn't, it was, it was a horror episode, so they had to do that stuff to him, but it wasn't all that mean. I will add to the list of the baby's hitter in Jurassic World, the Russian guy's girlfriend from 2012. Horrific, unnecessary,

[01:38:24] very protracted death scene in a terrible movie, but I'm like, like, I remember the first time watching, like, that was so mean. Why'd you do that? It is, it's interesting. Yeah, that Jurassic World one, like, it kind of, it, I was like, I didn't know this rule existed before, but now I know this rule exists. There are things you have to do to earn this sort of death scene. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that was, I mentioned in our, in our intro with Robbie, like, with the most recent Final Destination movie, I'm like,

[01:38:54] this is just a nice family of likable people. Like, there's no, like, oh, like, there were in previous Final Destinations where it's like, oh, that guy has been a racist for his whole life, or like, oh, this person would kill anyone anyway to get where they wanted to go. And it's like, these are just nice people that you're killing in gruesome ways. Why, why am I supposed to like this? I mean, that kind of was the first Final Destination too, like, none of them were bad people. But they, but they all had moments where you're like, oh,

[01:39:22] they were not a great person. Right. Right? Like, they gave you a thing that you could latch onto if you needed to. And this, you know, the newest one was just like, no, they're sweet. They're a loving family who supports each other. Yeah. I'm going to derail this conversation because I do think this is a newer trend. I remember watching, uh, what was the last? Logan. Logan? The, the hard, the R one, right? The one where he died until he came back. Um, and in there, like this nice family

[01:39:51] takes him and professor X in and like, they do the right thing. They help these strangers, they bring them in and then they get slaughtered. And I'm like, what is the message here that we shouldn't help people? Like, and I feel like I, like in that three year span, I saw that in multiple movies of like the, just the random guy, but they're not a superhero. So they're expendable. Casual cruelty. And I'm like, yeah, like cruelty for the sake of being cruel has definitely become more common in media. And I, I don't feel like that's what this episode was.

[01:40:20] I think this is just a horror episode. And because we do know them, it's not cruelty to be cruel. Yeah. And because these are characters we know, like with, with Riker, like seeing them put through their paces and how they react is interesting and compelling and tells us a lot about these characters. And I think it's the opposite of what I was just talking about. It's like, no, we do like these characters and that is why this is hard to see. Like, you don't want to see those people hurt. So I, you know, again, I land in the spot of, no,

[01:40:50] I haven't rewatched it yet. Probably will not rewatch it soon. Was upset by it. Yeah. I think it was pretty good. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's interesting because yeah, my response to the Sam Kirk thing and we heard this a couple of times was like, yeah, more intestines. Let's see him float out in space and like, like the chop finger chopping. I remember he was chopping vegetables was like, oh, that'd be wicked if like he started chopping his fingers and he does. I'm like, yeah, I'm the horror fan in me is cheering because I know these are visions. Right. I,

[01:41:19] I don't cheer when Kirk gets stabbed, when, when Spock's ears get clipped. I mean, I am grimacing. I think it's effective. I think it works, but I have a very different reaction to that versus what happens to the visions. And I will, one more credit to Christina Chong for being terrifying and doing the cocked hip, slightly walking at an angle, horror movie and horror video game character moment. I'm like, all right, perfect. Terrifying, terrifying, terrifying.

[01:41:49] I also love the glitchy computer effects throughout this whole episode. I'd love to talk. I should, we should try to get Tim Peel on for this episode because I think fantastic work there making what we've come to know is just like this comforting voice that provides information and comfort to like knowledge is power, knowledge is safety, but here it is so creepy the way that it reveals stuff. And like total not sequitur, John, just your phrasing made me kind of wish that we had gotten to see Christina Chong

[01:42:18] play Lara Croft. Like I think she would. Oh man. I think she would be great at that. She would be great at that. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also just want to call back. This was mentioned a couple times. I didn't get to mention it when they talked about it, but that cookie scene I love and not just because of the cookie bit, which was a great callback, but the performance and the understatement there when Ahura asked Kirk, like, I mean, are you fine? And he takes a beat and he shakes his head and he looks down and then he says,

[01:42:48] yes, I'm fine. And then it cuts to her and I mean, the audience knows like, he knows, she knows he's full of shit. He knows she knows he's full of shit and she's just like, you will be okay. Yeah. And like, that's all that scene needed and the performance was so good. Like, that was another one of those scenes I didn't appreciate in the first watch, but like on repeat viewings and like this episode just gives these moments. Yeah. And like the, the, that is a scene that could have been played

[01:43:17] the exact same lines the exact same actions could have been played for a very different tone. A few different tones like the, you know, the leave the cookies kind of thing could have been a little bit threatening more than anything and left her creeped out more than left him comforted. And I'm, I mean, I'm glad, I don't think they would have done that, but it's one of those scenes like, oh, you can apply a lot of filters to this exact same list of actions and lines and have it come out very differently. So. Yeah. It was interesting watching it after talking to Axel

[01:43:46] who knows her horror. Yeah. And she loves it. She lives and breathes horror, but she directed all the Enterprise stuff just like an Enterprise episode. And like, so clearly, I mean, no one's a one trick pony. I mean, I guess some people are, I didn't expect her to be, but like, yeah, like you could see someone being like, oh no, I'm going to twist the screws here too with the cookie line. But like, no, like. It's sweet. Yeah. Well, Jesse, we heard from a lot of great callers tonight. If anybody listening to this wants to call in,

[01:44:16] how can they do that? Well, John, I'm glad you asked because this week has really shown that even an episode that is very divisive and that some people outright do not like can produce a wonderful, nuanced, respectful conversation about that episode. And I think that is a credit to our community and to our callers. So if you would like to be part of that community and become a caller, the easiest way for you to do that is to go to openpike.com. You can record your message right there on the website or if you prefer,

[01:44:46] you can record an MP3, maybe speed it up a little bit to get it into your 90 seconds, whatever you have to do. And then you can email that file to openpike at gmail.com. And Cam, folks are starting to listen to this. They might be hearing your voice for the first time. Where else can they hear you once we're done with this season? Yeah. If you want to hear me talk more about TNG, you can head over to GreenShirt and Newbies Trek through the next generation where I just recently finished watching the entire series.

[01:45:15] So if I remember correctly, our schisms conversation was really good. All those horror episodes we had a lot of fun with. You can check us out there. Lots of back catalog after this season of Strange New Worlds. We'll get back into it with Picard season two and the further nine minute episodes discussing DS9 and Voyager. All right. Well, it has been a long night and the Open Pike Night crew has a lot of blood to clean up and then we have to pack our bags for Vegas because we are heading

[01:45:44] to STLV this week and we will be recording together for the second time ever. Second time ever, yeah. Yeah. An episode of Open Pike Night covering episode three of Strange New Worlds season four. So don't forget to clean up after yourselves. Don't forget to tip your servers. And don't forget to come to our panel on Friday. You can go anywhere you want, but you can't stay here. You can go anywhere you want,