Strange New WORDS - "Orders of Magnitude" with Alan B. McElroy

[00:00:00] This is Alan McElroy and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words, where the writers speak with one voice. And for this episode, it gets to be mine.

[00:00:21] Is this thing on? Hello, hello. Welcome to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words, the series where what the writers say is law, unless they're very clearly motivated by revenge.

[00:00:47] I'm John T. Boldz, your host, and we're here tonight to talk what I'm pretty sure might be my favorite episode of the entire series so far. But first, let me introduce my co-host, the man who will send an SOS to your heart, unless it's a trap to steal your guns, host of Green Shirt Podcast, Cameron Harrison. If SOS stands for Stalking Over StreamYard, yeah, that's pretty much what I do.

[00:01:12] And Jesse wanted to be here today, but you know how it is with dads. He just focused more on work. Maybe next time. But today we are joined once again by an Open Pike Night alum, so talented a storyteller that he makes us feel like we're being visited by our own famous admiral. Welcome back, Alan McElroy. Hello. Happy to be back. It's always great to have you here, man. This is your fifth, sixth time on our show? I don't know, but I'm glad. I love it.

[00:01:42] You might be our most prolific guest so far. I very much appreciate you. Oh man, he beat Bill? Yeah. Wow. So, today we're here to talk about episode 408, Orders of Magnitude, and what was the initial pitch for this episode, and how did it evolve? Well, we wanted to do an episode that surrounded, I think it was originally called Bad Admiral, and that was the pitch. It's like we wanted to do a Bad Admiral episode. Yeah.

[00:02:09] But for me, one of my favorite things from the original series is from, and I'm going to forget the, I think it's A Taste of Armageddon, where James Kirk initiates General Order 24. Okay. I was always fascinated by this idea that the Enterprise could destroy an entire planet. And I wanted to find an episode where I could put that idea in. And so I thought, Bad Admiral, General Order 24, yes.

[00:02:37] Also, I'm a huge fan of like, submarine movies where like captains are like, you know, a little bit twisted a little bit, you know, like the Bedford incident with Richard Widmark. I love that. And I love all those old movies, you know, like Run Silent, Run Deep, all these things that kind of put command at question. And that's what we wanted to do in this episode.

[00:02:56] Yeah. My, my first, and it's funny, I haven't actually ever seen the entire movie, but my first thought was, oh, it's kind of like Crimson Tide and a little bit Hunt for a October. Cause so yeah, I was like, oh, it's a submarine movie, but not the style of Star Trek submarine movie we usually get. So I like it. I like it. Mm-hmm. And I feel like we don't talk enough about the titles on these writer interviews. I know that the, sometimes the writer comes up with it. Sometimes the showrunner, sometimes another writer. Like, did you come up with Orders of Magnitude?

[00:03:25] I did come up with that. I don't know where it came from. I just threw it out there. It works. It works. Yep. Absolutely. Believe me, it goes all the way back to my first episode on Discovery where, um, just for no, like they had such weird titles on Discovery. So I thought, an oval for Sharon, why not? And they actually went with it. I'm not even sure what that means, but I threw it out there. Sure. Why not? That might be memorable. Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:51] I know it's an episode that gets discussed a lot. So, uh, did you intentionally want to do a classic cave episode for the B story or was that a, like a production constraint? Gosh, what led to the cave episode? I think I did like the idea of doing something like that, but also it was great for production.

[00:04:07] What I wanted to do was this cave. I was fascinated by, um, I think it's Ballset or Ballsalt or whatever it is. It's, it's, I remember seeing an image in the National Geographic magazine of like these, you know, spelunkers deep underground and these gigantic crystals next to them that were like the size of skyscrapers.

[00:04:26] And I just thought I'd love to do an episode that kind of showcased a different, you know, not your classic, oh, it's stalagmites, stalactites. And it's just that kind of look. I wanted something that felt really different. So I thought this was a chance to do that. That's very cool. And, uh, whose idea was it to call back to Laon's watch from Tomorrow Cubed? Speaking of callbacks. It gotta be either, it could have been Henry, could have been, uh, Akiva. Yeah. Uh, probably who brought that up again.

[00:04:54] That was nice. It took me a second. I was like, oh, that's why that watch is important. Exactly. Yeah. Very nice that, that Kirk uses it for his escape. It's a man's watch. Wait, what? So Kirk. Yes. So we're 80% of the way through the season. I have to know who ordered the accidental double shipment of Vulcan blood this season. Cause we have seen a lot of Vulcan blood so far.

[00:05:22] There's been a lot of green blood. There's been like ears have been cut off. I mean, it's just been like, you know, spewing like what, like the episode he's like spitting up blood. Yeah. We've seen a lot of Vulcan blood. Poor Ethan. The surgery last episode, just all flooded all over. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I saw a chapel holding up her hand. I'm like, man, they, they're just using green all over the place. We are going green everywhere.

[00:05:50] Well, I'm going to keep returning to callbacks cause there's also a callback to city on the edge of forever with the cordrazine, at least according to our co-host Jesse, who was the keeper of all lore. Was that something you guys knew you were going to use from like the first draft or did you kind of get to the climax and be like, we need something. See me being like the classic Star Trek fan, I will always look for some excuse to put in any Easter eggs from the original series. I can and cordrazine was one that I wanted. So it's like, you know, general order 24 cordrazine, anything.

[00:06:20] I mean, in previous episodes, I think you remember I used the Constellation. I can mention referencing the Constellation and Captain Deck at that time before he was even Commodore. So anytime I can throw in something that nods back to the original series, I will find an excuse to do it. Were you always going to have some sort of like substance be the thing that triggers the Admiral or I feel like in a lot of stories, you know, it would just be like Kirk would get up there and manipulate him. But we needed something here for Embenga to take the fall for it.

[00:06:49] How did that whole part of the story evolve? Yeah, I think that was just something as we, you know, talked it through in the room, the idea that this was going to be the case. So, you know, cordrazine just seemed like it fit the bill based on what it what cordrazine did to McCoy in Sitting on the Edge Forever, that this was a perfect, perfect substance to use that fans would remember. I mean, it's it's handy to have that because it's almost like I don't know the TOS that well. So it didn't it didn't occur to me.

[00:07:18] But it's like it's almost a red herring cover for this. Like, oh, yeah, this is Chekhov's cordrazine. We just don't realize it yet. But yeah, so yeah, it was it was really nicely used. Yeah. With the Admiral, was Yeoman Vanek's presence simply because an Admiral of a standing would have an assistant or did she serve another purpose in the script? Originally, it was going to be Yeoman Rand. We thought. Oh, OK. Yeah, I did. I did Google Vanek. I was like, this feels like another callback. But I can pull something up. Nope. It was going to be Yeoman Rand.

[00:07:47] And then, you know, it just didn't work out. We decided that now. So we went with Vanek and the actress who played Vanek. She did a great job with very little with very little. Yeah. I mean, she stood out to me. That's why I kind of thought about asking about her. Yeah. Yeah. I told her I said if the show went forward, you would end up in like, you know, Starfleet intelligence. And she was like, oh, OK, great. Thank you. Well, I'd love to live in that alternate reality. Yeah.

[00:08:13] So one of the things this episode really kind of stands out for is you get to fill in a lot of backstory for George Kirk. Yes. What were your guiding principles when creating his legacy? And was there any consideration ever to bring him physically into the episode or season? Well, not here. I mean, I won't give things away for the future. But one of the things we wanted to talk about was just this idea of paternity and fathers and how they impact our lives and how you view them.

[00:08:41] And, you know, one thing that we've kind of hinted at is this idea that Sam and Jim had this kind of contentious relationship with their father because they viewed him as someone who had maybe been an absentee father, been a bit of a failure as a, you know, in terms of command. I mean, just someone that like obviously the Sam said, I want to be different than him. And Jim looking for someone who was more of a mentor figure, look to Rieger as somebody else like, OK, you're the man that I would. I almost wish you were my father.

[00:09:10] Not realizing just the kind of hero that and sacrifice that George Kirk had made in his life and the kind of hero that he really was at his core. And so it's just interesting to watch that journey and watch both Sam and Jim see their father in a different light. And that's something that I think all sort of young men deal with is this, this seeing your father sort of this kind of elevated figure on a pedestal, then humanizing him when you become an adolescent.

[00:09:35] And then as you get older, realizing what maybe the wisdom that I might have discounted when I was a teenager comes back around to be something that I need to look at more closely and reflects reality as I get older. And to that point of all that, as the writer, what do you think of George's decision not to say anything? They discover that he decided to continue to toe the official line about what happened even to his kids. Well, I think that's I mean, I think what's great about that is it shows his sacrifice.

[00:10:04] It's like he put essentially the needs of the many above the needs of the one that he viewed it important that especially that time of war, that morale be maintained at a high level. And he didn't want to do anything that was going to cause people to lose faith in Starfleet, even if it meant that his own children would lose faith in him. That just shows what a selfless person he is and I think elevates him. So I think it's a good thing.

[00:10:30] Did you intentionally use different types of reactions from younger officers like La'an and Ortegas to hearing Rager was coming on the ship to the way Mbenga reacts, which is not a negative way. But it's La'an gives like the happiest smile we've seen from her in a very long time, if not ever at hearing the news that he's coming on board. And Ortegas has a huge grin on her face and they're on their back foot and flattered. And Mbenga's just kind of there. Yes. Yeah.

[00:10:58] We wanted to lean into this idea of hero worship from these officers who like look at him as like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is a celebrity coming on board, you know, our ship. And, you know, just like we followed his career. We idolized him and we wanted that. And of course, Mbenga knows a little bit more, but, you know, is restrained about it. But we definitely wanted that hero worship from the younger officers. Nice. Nice. And I love the Kirk brothers moments we're getting this season too.

[00:11:26] Do you have siblings you're able to draw upon experience for these scenes? Well, I have an older sister. Okay. So that's about as close as I could get. But I almost wish I wish I had had a brother. Don't have that, unfortunately. But my sister, you know, used to beat up on me quite a bit. I was going to say, but you do have that experience of when you started becoming a teenager, that moment when she's like, ah, dang it. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:11:52] Were you able to project your wishes for a brother into these scenes at all? Oh, a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. But, I mean, it would have been very interesting to have that kind of relationship. And, you know, it's so funny because here's Sam. Here's this character that, you know, that William Shatner portrayed for like a heartbeat in an episode. And we have now been able to like flesh out their relationship and really create something that I think adds to the canon of both Jim Kirk's life. And, of course, it's great to just have Sam with that great mustache.

[00:12:23] He's one of my favorite characters on the show. I love Sam. He's a great actor. The guy who plays him is fantastic. Oh, man. So speaking of familial relationships, you know, last time you were here to discuss the pilot, Henry told us that the Asha character and her relationship with Ahura was basically a parent-child metaphor, which I've loved to view that through the lens over the season. It's helped a lot. And I think it's especially on display here in this.

[00:12:50] Were you able to draw on your experience as a parent in writing those scenes at all? A little bit, yes. I mean, what I think we were leaning into is this idea that Ahura would, you know, thinks that she's being this great mentor, this great parent, and then, you know, in her view, failed. Mm-hmm. Not everybody is meant for Starfleet. Because we always show characters that are meant for Starfleet. Like, oh, my gosh, you've really shown me a path that's going to lead me to do blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:17] And we thought, you know, how great it would be to show someone who says, you know what? Yeah, no. This is not for me. And to see that land on Ahura, but also in a way that kind of matures her going forward. Because she gets this award, you know, this promotion on the heels of what she felt was a failure. But, you know, that's part of life. That's part of growing up. Mm-hmm. Well, that's part of parenting.

[00:13:46] I thought that was the interesting parallel there is, like, we all have an idea of what we want our kids to turn into, but it's not our job to turn them into what we want them to be. It's our job to help them find what they want to be and who they are and to succeed at that. And I'm the same. Like, did she fail if Ahsha doesn't want to be in Starfleet? I don't think so. I think that's being a good mentor. Yeah. Look, let's all – let me have to – Ahsha never wanted to be in Starfleet from the beginning. Come on. You know, from day one, she was like, this is a chaotic ship.

[00:14:16] I don't want to be here. This is ridiculous. Speaking of, like, yeah, chain of command, she would be mutinying every other day. Oh, yeah. Exactly. There's a lot of parallels between the two plots. We've got two captains willing to sacrifice lives to do what they think is right. We also see two different types of villainy. What were you thinking about when you were trying to draw parallels or differences between those two storylines and those two captains? You mean between the Andorian? The Andorian.

[00:14:43] Well, the Andorian, I mean, wanted to have a little more fun with that character, you know, which you can see he sort of enjoys it a little bit. But also really wanted it to be someone who had viewed Starfleet from the inside and had viewed it negatively, obviously. I mean, he felt sort of, you know, rejected. And this is his chance to kind of get back at Starfleet. So I thought that was kind of an interesting take on a character. And to have Uhura, you know, first, are we doubting her?

[00:15:12] Are we thinking, is she really giving in to this guy and letting herself be used in this manner? And then seeing how, getting to see her kind of step up and take action was cool. But between the two captains, between Rieger and between, you know, the Andorian, there's not really meant to be an exact parallel between the two of them. It was just kind of like fun characters to write. Right. And like you mentioned with Uhura, I have watched enough media.

[00:15:42] I'm like, okay, I think I know how this ship story is going to play out. I did not see how the planet story with the cave story was going to play out. I'm like, oh, I did not have Uhura going full commando. Yes. Yes. One person army. Like, it was so, it was so fun, especially because that story starts out with Pike just being, all right, man, what do you want? What do you want? Yeah. Like, I, I masterfully written. It was fun.

[00:16:09] It was also great for Celia to, you know, get a chance to really like go full on. You know, that's what we wanted. We really wanted it. Just go, go for it. She really dove into the, into the fight sequences, which was great. Yeah. Well, my favorite, favorite part of that, and we'll talk about it with Sharon, I'm sure, but I love that she doesn't just turn into La'an basically. Like she's not good at fine. Like she's good, but like, she's still, she's still stumbling. She, she, the roll over the crystal is not perfect.

[00:16:37] Like the hand to hand is like her just desperately trying to stay alive. And I mean, you feel that you feel that she's, you know, a communications officer in a little over her head, but with just enough training to get through. Was that there in the script or. Yeah. We want it to be sort of a, you know, a real down and dirty, scrappy fight. We didn't want her to be, you know, this isn't John Wick. This isn't, uh, you know, this isn't that kind of thing. She's not like the perfect martial artist. This is meant to be like in the dirt fighting, you know, hard and fast. I will say that.

[00:17:06] And I haven't seen the final version, but there's a shot where like she does, where she rolls over the crystal. Yeah. And I thought, and I told Henry, I said, cause I saw a cut earlier and I was like, it would be great if we had some like laser fire or something to like ricochet behind her just to like play off the fact that she rolls over the crystal. He goes, yeah, those, those effects are already, they've been shot. Like, okay. Looks great. And that's the thing. Celia looks great.

[00:17:34] Like, even if not experienced, like Celia looks badass. Oh yeah. Oh, I mean, it's more badass. I think. Cause again, like you could tell she's in a little over her head, but she, she rises to the occasion. That's what we love to see in Star Trek. Exactly. I guess the other parallel though, I was thinking there was a parallel between Rieger and Pike in those scenes too, where they're both willing to sacrifice people to do what they think is right. And I thought that was an interesting examination as well. Was that something you were thinking of or am I reading too much into trying to think about it?

[00:18:04] You have smart questions. What I wanted to do is play it as Rieger's not a villain. You know, he has to be right from his perspective. And if you really watch the episode closely, you can almost go like, is Kirk putting too much of his doubt onto this character that's trying to do the right thing? Because Rieger does say, you know, what if you're wrong? And what if he was wrong? What if Kirk was wrong?

[00:18:27] And the fact is, in truth, he is wrong because this ship becomes the ship that he will end up having to confront in Balance of Terror. So, so in a sense, he let an enemy slip through his fingers that he would, because that's why that line is so important. When Rieger at the end says, the blood and the terror will be on your head. That was a direct link to Balance of Terror.

[00:18:54] Alan, I was wondering if the prominence of the Romulan neutral zone on the map was important in some way. Yes, yes. This is the ship that Kirk will end up confronting later. Well, I mean, I was going to say, like, depending what happens with the ship totally changes our view of both Rieger and Kirk. Like, do another five million people die? Because that would change how I view things as opposed to, like, if they don't. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was he the hero here by stopping Rieger?

[00:19:24] Maybe not. Yeah. So, I love that Strange New Worlds has not forgotten Hammer. Every season, his presence is felt and openly discussed. Is that something the writers are like, where is he going to fall in this season? Or does it just come up naturally as you're writing? That was something where, as we went through it, I don't know if it was Henry or Kira, who threw that out there, the idea that we really wanted to do this callback of, like, Hammer would be proud.

[00:19:50] So, that was kind of a moment of, again, kind of feeding in the past and feeding in how important that kind of thing is. It wasn't meant deliberately to, like, okay, we're really going to thread Hammer in here. Right. It was just sort of a nod and an acknowledgement that it's important to her history. Well, in her talk to the Andorian pirate captain, too, like, I mean, she brings him up there.

[00:20:14] And, you know, I'm just headcanoning that it was Hammer who taught her whatever sonic device she used that works against Andorian. It's like, 100%, that's my headcanon. Yeah, I was picturing a deleted scene where she was messing with something. And he's like, stop, stop, that hurts. Never use this frequency on Andorian unless you're captured by pirates. Yes, exactly.

[00:20:37] Well, speaking of, like, threading those character moments throughout, this episode gives us a lot of great classic bridge scenes, which we've seen in a lot of Star Trek and submarine movies and other movies. But because Strange New Worlds does such wonderful character work, they are just loaded with so much emotional context between the characters. Is it juggling all of those character arcs? Does that make writing those scenes easier or harder? Oh, it makes it so much fun writing those moments. Really, like, leaning into these.

[00:21:06] Having characters react to the situation. I mean, like you said, it's very much like Crimson Tide. And for Red October, really getting to see how each one, each of these characters reacts. Watching Kirk struggle. Seeing La'an have to, like, caught between this. I, you know, yes, it's circumstantial, but I have to follow orders. Watching all those kind of moments. You know, Ortegas, you know, struggle with, like, do we really have to do this? These are all fun things.

[00:21:34] You know, these are all, like, the little things you want to, like, mine out of these characters and play those reactions. And Sharon was great at, like, capturing each of these moments and making them intense, which we both had a great time. And, you know, I have to say, I mean, Joe Morton. I wanted to ask you about Joe Morton. You know, Joe Morton is just incredible. He is incredible. I have to say this. When he came in, I think it was the first day we were shooting, we were doing the first rehearsal.

[00:22:01] And usually they come in, the actors come in, and they're all still in their sweats and whatnot. They kind of, like, you know, walk through the dialogue as we're rehearsing. And they've still got, like, their sides in front of them, some of them, whatever. Joe comes in, off book, character ready. And as soon as he starts, I watched all the other actors kind of sit up and go, oh, my gosh, there's an adult in the room. And it just raised everybody's game.

[00:22:28] And you saw, you know, Paul really just, like, lean in. And it raised his game. My hat's off to Joe Morton. I mean, he is a pro. And, I mean, my gosh, what a privilege to have him on there. I mean, I watched Scandal. And his Papa Pope character, who had so many great speeches. If you watch that character, it was like this sort of complex, villainous character. Oh, my gosh. You know, the fact that we had him on there was amazing.

[00:22:57] And there's that scene toward the end when he says, you know, I don't care what anybody says. You know, I'm going to kill these bastards who murdered my family. We had done this take, like, multiple times. And finally, Sharon basically said, you know, let go. Because we always had to rein him in because he always kept going back to this wanting to do it almost like Captain Ahab. We were like, no, no, no. You are – we have to be on your side, on your side. And finally, it was like, you know, Joe, what do you want to do?

[00:23:25] Just let go in this moment with the speech. And he just went for it in this one take that just was unbelievable. And when he got to the end of it, he said, I don't care what anybody says. I'm going to kill these bastards who murdered my family. And that scene – and when the take was over, you could have – a pin could have dropped. Everybody was silent. The whole bridge was – because there were those moments when it comes to life. And in that moment, Joe Morton, he brought the whole thing to life. It was real.

[00:23:54] And Sheridan and I both turned to each other and just went – and then we hugged each other. And then we ran onto the set. And then we hugged him. It was just like – so Joe Morton, if anybody gets a chance to work with him, he is bar none. Pro numero uno. Was this your first time getting to work with him ever? Yes. Oh, man. And man, oh, my gosh. Did you have a hand in him getting cast or did you receive the news? No, it was one of those things where it's like, you know, and we're going to get Joe Morton.

[00:24:23] And I was just like, that's – are you kidding? That's amazing. So, yeah, it was just great. Yeah. How did you approach writing that character specifically? Because one of my favorite scenes is his first scene with Kirk where he's talking about the coffee. And he's like, hey, yeah, by the way, you know, we got to be one voice. Don't do that again. It's fine. We're cool. We're cool. Like, I just – like, it's such a good – that whole scene, you're like, okay, I know this is the bad moral. But he's written and playing it like he's not a bad moral. We constantly worked on that.

[00:24:52] It was constantly reeling it back in, reeling it back in, making him not seem villainous. We really fought it, you know, just make sure that none of the dialogue comes across like that. And the coffee thing is actually a nod to Henry, the showrunner. He is very specific about his coffee. So we decided, you know what, let's put that in the script and let's play with that. And Henry loved that. Amazing. Always good to tell your boss, yeah, we – you know, the evil admiral, we modeled him after you a little bit. Exactly.

[00:25:22] Don't worry about how. Yeah. Where did the name come from? Oh, Rieger? Yeah. Just came out of nowhere. I mean, it's just like – I always feel like our names are very – are strong names. Like, if you go back to Discovery, that last character we brought on – and I can't remember the actor's name, but it's Rainer. Rainer was a name that I had as a character name for years, and I just, you know, gave it to him. But I love names for antagonists that begin with an R that I would think is really cool. Yeah.

[00:25:52] So with his entrance, I mean, we were in a season where people just show up on the ship off screen all the time. And we get a formal greeting for the admiral. And, like, I feel it every time I watch the episode. I'm like, man, this is a solemn but important moment. Was that written to be that or was it just – Yes, it was. And it was like the official, like, you know, bringing him aboard was meant to be completely official and have them all stand in.

[00:26:18] We worked with the extras because the extras were like – you know, they kind of stood there and all that. And we were like, no, no, you guys got to mark in order and you've got to turn in order. You need to be military. And here's a funny thing. I was actually supposed to be the guy who does the – like the – Oh. The whistle of board. Uh-huh. But we were – we had this – but we were working on season five. So I had to go be in the room for that. But the costume department had made me a costume for it. A full-on, like, security commander uniform. Down – I mean, everything.

[00:26:48] Boots to top. It was all there. And then I couldn't do it. But they gave me the uniform. Oh, that's awesome. That is excellent. Did you get the whistle too? I wish I'd gotten the whistle. I was so close. I was like – literally, I was so close. I was like a day away from doing it. And then that morning they were like, we really need you in the room. You know, I'm sorry. You can't do it. I was like, oh, you know. Dang. Okay. Dang. Sacrifice for the greater good. Yes.

[00:27:13] Well, the moment with Kirk justifying stunning Laon by mentioning that she had stabbed him, it's a great comedic moment in a very serious episode. Do those moments tend to happen organically as a result of the character roles? Like La'an being security, Kirk being in the middle of a mutiny? Or is there a conscious effort to include a comedic beat like that in an episode like this? No. I mean, we wanted to nod back to that moment, obviously.

[00:27:40] That was a very interesting scene though to have to shoot because they really couldn't find the rhythm for it. Like Christina and Paul, they were really having – they struggled with it quite a bit. And we shot it and tried to get multiple takes because her getting stunned, we couldn't get her to like – We wanted her to like really come at Paul so you have to stun her. And she couldn't quite get there and justify it. And it was very interesting that we –

[00:28:07] Sharon and I went back and forth and finally we shot a version of it and it was just like, okay, we can live with it. And then we came back. I think it was either a day later or two days later. We had to shoot another sequence in that corridor and we said, let's just try to get it one more time really quickly. And we finally got something that worked. But it was a very – it's always very interesting to see where actors run into a problem. It's always not where you expect it. You think, well, this is going to be easy. Let's just – you know, this – it makes perfect sense.

[00:28:35] And they'll be like, well, you know, they can't quite process it. But they're great actors. By the way, Paul and Christina are fantastic. It was just very interesting that that moment was so difficult. Very odd. Well, there's probably moments you think are going to be difficult that they have no problems with too. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Well, speaking of that scene, I believe it's there where Kirk talks about starships and how they are these amazingly powerful, dispassionate weapons.

[00:29:02] And that ultimately what matters is the people who are in control of them. And that line jumped out at me. And I realized I think it's because it's kind of the flip side of the whole theme of your episode from season three, What is Starfleet? Where Starfleet is this amazing set of ideals, but it's kind of meaningless unless the people uphold them. Were you kind of thinking of that? Is this episode kind of a continuation of the conversation that What is Starfleet started? Yes. I would definitely say that's the case.

[00:29:30] I will say that that speech, I think, was either written or rewritten by either Henry or Akiva. We went back and forth on that speech. But yes, we're always sort of leaning into this idea of like the power of Starfleet. That's the whole question of like, you know, General Order 24. You know, that a commander should have the ability to destroy a planet if it feels that it is a clear and present threat to the Federation. I think it's just, you know, really something to look at.

[00:29:56] And people probably forget that in Operation Annihilate in the original series, Kirk struggles with the idea of like, I can't let this virus, these things, you know, get beyond Deneva. And I may have to kill a million colonists. And you sort of miss that in the episode. It's like, you know, Spock and his nephew will have to beam down and he's going to have to wipe out a million colonists because he can't let – he's got the authority to kill a million people if he feels they're a threat. And I think that's fascinating.

[00:30:25] And it just – the power of a starship has always – I've always been fascinated by it. And Mbenga might be the single most complex character in Star Trek and our co-host Jesse believes the show is actually mostly about him. How does it feel to have like such a multifaceted character at your disposal? How do you approach writing for a character that doesn't seem to have a single defining trait? I think it's great.

[00:30:54] I mean, I think the – it gives you many layers and levels to play with a character that was an assassin but now has taken a vow to, you know, to do no harm. Has all these secrets, a deep, deep past that, you know, he does not want to discuss but we get a sense of. And also, you know, with an actor who in every line of dialogue and every delivery gives you all those layers in the subtext of how he channels the dialogue. That was always great.

[00:31:23] It's like if you give him the – you give him this dialogue and he'll bring it to life and add something behind each word that maybe you didn't write but he's able to color it in a way that gives it gravity. And so that's what makes Mbenga, I think, a great character. And I'm glad we brought the Mbenga character out of TOS and into this world. I think it's been – it's been really important, I think, to see this.

[00:31:50] And with all the characters that had like a moment in TOS, you know, like, you know, number one, you know, just a moment. I almost wish we could have gone back and done – there's a yeoman from the cage, from the menagerie. A yeoman – oh, I can't remember her name. Colt? I forget it. But, yeah, just like – I love those kind of – you know, like bringing back these little characters that were missed or glossed over and giving them weight.

[00:32:15] And I'm glad that we were able to give Mbenga something that has this kind of gravity. Absolutely. One other character we get a little moment with is Ortega saying, this is why I stay in my quarters. Is Ortega the homebody? Like, what – is there more to that? Well, I go back to like, you know, like you said, the documentary episode where we got to see her in her quarters. You know, just like tinkering and working, you know, on things like that.

[00:32:40] And so I feel like – which she needs to get away from all the mishegas going on in the ship that she goes back there and she's like tinkering and working on an old sort of hover motorcycle or something like that. I like that. This is the first time I think we see Sam Kirk's quarters, right? Like, did you have a hand in developing what looked like – what was in there? Well, yeah, we wanted to – I mean, our initial scenes were even longer.

[00:33:07] I mean, we – initially when Kirk goes in, he was going to be on like a video call with Aurelin and with his kids and we'd see that. Which I thought would have been cool. And all through this – all through while I've been there, I kept trying to get a moment in when Aurelin or he would say, so yeah, we're really excited because we're moving to Deneva. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I really – I kept – and everybody says, Alan, you're so – like, you're so fatalistic with these characters.

[00:33:34] And I just – you know, I just really want that moment. It's like, yeah, we're so – we're going to have a bigger house and she's going to do research and I'm going to have my own lab. It's going to be fantastic. Deneva is like raise the kids, you know. We're going to eat pancakes for breakfast every day. Yeah. Fried eggs. We're going to love the fried eggs. I love fried eggs. If the scene is in there while Pike is like cooking pancakes and breakfast, he just talks about how cool Deneva is going to be. I mean – I do want to see Uncle Jim Kirk now.

[00:34:04] I do want to see that interaction. That would be fun. That's true. Well, before we start wrapping things up, I do kind of want to go back to our first question about the initial germ of this episode. There's been a lot of big genre swings this episode. I mean you could almost say every episode leading up to this was some sort of like blank on the Enterprise or blank in space type of episode.

[00:34:28] I mean one maybe not as much but it feels a lot like a kind of a pulpy comic book version of an episode. Was tackling this episode – was there like an idea of like we've got to give them at least one straight Star Trek episode or like what was kind of that guiding principle? No, I mean I think we can't do it thinking that this bad Admiral episode was going to be our military episode, our kind of – one of my favorite episodes which I sadly did not get to do a take on is Doomsday Machine.

[00:34:57] And I love that character, the Decker character. So this was my chance to kind of give it a little bit of Doomsday Machine. You know, I don't think we were so much saying, well the fans need a straight ahead Star Trek episode so much as we in the writers room wanted to just do this kind of classic submarine bad Admiral Kirk versus, you know, this guy who's looked at as a mentor and then realizing maybe he's not the person I thought he was.

[00:35:23] And that this would help show his maturity and what will end up leading him to be the great captain that he's going to become by seeing, you know, what happens in this episode. Or experiencing what happens in this episode. Yeah, it was great. And last season, you know, we got to see Kirk and the crew. They're like – the TOS crew working together in this episode. I was like, oh, now we get to see Kirk's first time officially being a member of the Enterprise. Like that was a fun moment for sure. I like his little line of I've had command before.

[00:35:53] Maybe not always like – not always the greatest, but it's like yeah. How about the line of, you know, don't worry Spock. You'll get to turn that line on some lucky captain. I love the spirk bait you guys are giving this season. I love that. Awesome. Well, Star Trek has always shown us an ideal utopian future. But of course, you know, it's got to be careful not to candy coat it too much or it will seem too unreal or unobtainable.

[00:36:23] Alan, do you think implying that they have Christmas lights with actual redundancies that you don't have to throw away after one use is stepping over that line? Is that too unrealistic for even a Star Trek utopia? Yeah, that was the most sci-fi thing I've seen in this show. Scotty saying his grandma's Christmas lights have a lot of redundancies. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Yeah. That's right. It's probably the most throwaway line in the episode, but I caught it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that.

[00:36:52] I made a bigger deal out of that line actually and then rolled it back. Yeah. I remember that. You're an eternal optimist. Yeah. And this is your second script directed by Sharon Lewis. Can you talk about working with her? I love Sharon. Sharon. I mean, she is a wonderful human being, an incredible director, because she was also an actor, can really find performances in these roles and really pull out the performance.

[00:37:20] But also what I love about her is that she really comes into it with a vision and knows what she wants. And you can see like her and the crew, they just sort of gel very well together because they can trust her and the actors can trust her. And so that's what's so great is that she finds the depth that a scene needs. And I give her a lot of credit. She came in like that very first, you know, directing, that documentary episode was to come in and do something that is so completely non-Star Trek and really nail it.

[00:37:49] And then come back here and give us something that just feels so intense and so character specific. And again, it was just working with, you know, we would finish each other's sentences. She knew, you know, she would know things that I'd say, you know, what about this? And she was like already thinking about that. And so it's always great to have a working relationship with a director that you're both on the same page about the vision of the material. And that even that a director can give you more than even you would expect. That's a dream.

[00:38:19] And so Sharon brings that every time. I will work with her again in a heartbeat. I'm just going to play that as the intro and we talk to her. Yeah. So when all is said and done and people look back at orders of magnitude, what do you think they will refer to it as? The episode with? What would they refer to it as? The episode with the... What would they refer to it as? The episode with the bad admiral? I don't know how they refer to it.

[00:38:50] That doesn't narrow it down too much on Star Trek, but maybe the Joe Morton bad admiral. The Joe Morton bad admiral. Yeah. Yes. I think, yeah, the way you sort of look at William Wyndham and his character, like how he stood out as a great guest star. I'm hoping that Joe Morton will also go down in history as like, you know, a classic great guest star of Star Trek. Yeah. I really think so. Yeah. We always do like to ask our writers, what is your favorite line from this episode?

[00:39:17] Well, it's so funny because I, you know, as I said, I haven't watched the episode in several months, sadly. But I know my favorite line is something is, and it's in Joe Morton's delivery. When he says, oh gosh, it's when he delivers the General Order 24. I believe he says, you know. Let the log show that on this stardate, I am authorizing the implementation of General Order 24.

[00:39:45] When we arrive at Argus 2, the entire inhabited surface of the planet will be destroyed. That is like the way he delivers that line. And I give Joe this credit. You watch him. This wasn't in the script. You watch him realize he's made that decision. He says, he starts talking about it and then he stops and he pauses. And then he goes, and you see him realize that that's the choice he's making.

[00:40:13] I thought that was just like, watching this actor do that was great. You know, that he embodied that moment and says, and it's the way he says, we'll be destroyed. We'll be destroyed. It's a callback. When Kirk, because I've always loved that scene when he, when Kirk would say, you know. You know, oh no, sorry. What Scotty would say. In one hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have not long to surrender your hostages.

[00:40:42] That would be my favorite where he, when he, when he says, you know, the entire inhabited surface of the planet will be destroyed. I just, it just gives me chills. Yeah. I love the moment with, uh, with Admiral a little bit later when he's looking around and he's like, I'm going to have to give a captain speech. Yeah. Cause he gets, there's like that moment. He takes a beat and he's like, all right, I got to do this. He stands up and turns and addresses everyone. That's right. Yeah. And I definitely want to ask Sharon about this. Like, thank you for bringing that up, Cam. And then one more, one more thought here.

[00:41:11] The bridge feels so different. It is not Pike's enterprise bridge when Rager is sitting in that chair, the formality, the like, I think Ortega's kind of embodies it best. Cause she is not speaking up and she is not like, like commenting on what's going on, but you can see her wanting to, and definitely see her having feelings about it. So was that in the script or was that direction? And, and, you know, she's, she's so, you know, she so admires this man.

[00:41:39] And then when he praises her, you know, you just see her like sit up a little taller and feel like, Oh my gosh, you know, my hero just gave me a compliment. Yeah. That's yeah. This, this is a different bridge, you know, that, that he's running, which I think, you know, we wanted to make that the case. It works very well. Like the minute he sits in the chair, I'm like, Oh, this is, this is a different ship. That's right. Alan, thank you so much for being here with us. Thanks for, for all the time and work you've done on a strange new worlds.

[00:42:09] We cannot wait to see what's coming for season five, man. Season five. Oh man. You just wait. I was also going to say like, your name gets named dropped by the other writers so much when we're like, we really love this line. And we're like, yeah, that was an Alan line. Yeah. I appreciate that. That's great. Your presence is felt and appreciated on the show. Thank you so much. I love them. I love working with those writers. Everybody in the writer's room was great. And my gosh, I miss them so much.

[00:42:38] You have no idea. Yeah. I, I can believe it. Like I, I'm, I'm so glad we got to see the set. I'm like, man, I kind of wish I'd gotten to sit in the writer's room, like go hang out there for a day or two. Oh man. Oof. That would have been fantastic. That's fun. Yeah. Well, that's why we do these interviews. It's the second best thing. Exactly. All right. Exactly. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Talk to you soon. Take care. Bye. Bye.