Strange New WORDS - S4E2 with Robbie Thompson

[00:00:00] This is Robbie Thompson and you're listening to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words. It's what you get when you turn off the lights and say a Star Trek writer's name three times in a mirror. Is this thing on? Hello, hello.

[00:00:21] Hello and welcome to Open Pike Night's Strange New Words, the series that summons the writers of Star Trek Strange New Worlds from the other side of the veil to talk about the episode you just watched. I'm your ghost host Cameron Harrison.

[00:00:49] A quick note, if you haven't watched season four episode two, The Griffin Incident yet, stop listening because you're about to hear spoilers you won't be able to unhear. First, let me introduce my co-host, the man whose wedding vows included staying up to date on all slasher franchises, Jesse Bailey. That's partially true. I really liked the new I Know What You Did Last Summer. Oh.

[00:01:12] And I know that Final Destination isn't really a slasher movie, but the new one of that I was like, you kind of forgot to make me like these people before you killed them. But let's talk about Star Trek. Now, producer John promised he would come, told us this time it would be different champ. He really means it. But all we got was this little plastic robot. It's cute. We'll take it.

[00:01:36] Today, we welcome for his first appearance on Open Pike Night, the best set tour guide a couple of podcasters could hope for. It's Robbie Thompson. Good to see you guys again. Stay inside this time. That's right. Yes. We met you on set. You took a lot of goofy pictures of John and I messing around in Med Bay and the hallways, the turbo lift. We appreciate it all. That's right. For episode, which was it? That was the final. That was the final episode. That's right. Final episode. Yeah.

[00:02:06] A lot of emotions. Emotions were running high. What did you guys think of the set? I don't think I had a chance to totally decompress. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, they were, you know, they were, uh, changing the bridge out as all we're probably allowed to say. So we didn't get a sit in the captain's chair. Sure. But I got to tell you like the transporter room, that was like the most tingly, like, oh shoot, we're in Star Trek moment. It is so cool. It is pretty overwhelming. I've been on a lot of sets professionally as a writer and then visiting friend sets that, you

[00:02:34] know, worked on other projects, but walking onto the bridge that first day, because we were in prep on, on this episode and we, we dressed the enterprise to be, uh, the Griffin in this episode, but they were still shooting another episode and walking onto that bridge that that's probably the, I'm not a cynical person. It's just after a while. So, you know, it's your job. Right. But like, I was like, oh geez, I'm, I'm five years old and I'm watching this, you know, with my brother. Cause you know, that was my introduction. It was my brother introduced me to star Trek when I was a kid.

[00:03:03] It was reruns on a channel 50 WKBD back home. And it was just, it was impossible to not just be transported back to that feeling and the same feeling in the transporter room and, and strangely, uh, the med bay, even though it's obviously different, but a lot of this episode we knew was going to take place there. Yeah. Um, so even just scouting through there before it was redressed was just, yeah, it's a, it's a very Jonathan Lee, who, you know, is our incredible production designer did such

[00:03:29] an amazing job of, of creating a space that you felt as soon as you walked in was real. You know, there's a, there's a ceiling. And then when they turn on all the electronics and the motion graphics, it's, um, yeah, it's pretty overwhelming. It is overwhelming. It's a good word. Also it's fascinating. Like that transporter room was so much bigger than it feels in the show. Yeah. And then like the galley is so much smaller than it feels like that movie magic is really kind of disorienting in some ways. You're right. I had the exact same experience.

[00:03:57] I went in there and I was expecting this cavernous space based on how it was shot, but it's actually pretty tidy in there. Mm. Yeah. They know how to shoot it. They really do. Well, let's get into this episode again. Now, strange new worlds and star Trek in general have dabbled in horror throughout its history, but this episode really feels like you could slap a Blumhouse logo on it, put it in theaters and no one would question anything. Uh, what was like the seed of this episode was the first idea and how did it become what we, we witnessed? Well, first of all, I want to say thank you.

[00:04:27] Cause that's definitely, we really wanted this to feel like a, a pure horror, you know, type of episode and a type of vibe. And it's not that, you know, star Trek, a strange new worlds hadn't touched on that. And obviously as you said, star Trek itself, but we really wanted to kind of try to find something that was, I'm paraphrasing Akiva right now that that was unsettling that, that left, you know, star Trek is obviously known for hope and optimism, but this was meant to be something that kind of, you know. Uh, kind of got under your skin.

[00:04:57] Either you wanted to watch it right away or maybe never again in a good way. Um, so, uh, where it came from was that first couple of weeks in the writers room. You know, I was, as new, I was the new guy in the room. And so I didn't know quite the process that, you know, Akiva and Henry have, and it was really incredible to watch how they kind of break. And all the writers break down the season from, uh, both a character standpoint, but also a technical standpoint. Cause it really kind of has to go. Both of those tracks have to go in order for us to build the digital assets.

[00:05:27] I remember you guys, you guys went over to the air wall as well, as well. Like we did not get to tour the wall. Yeah. Once you see it, you understand like why it takes so much time to render. Cause it's, it's enormous. We have to design that in the writers room. So those first couple of days, we really talked mostly about characters. What was owed. We didn't know at that time, whether or not there would be a season five. So in the back of, I think their minds was they being our showrunners. Do we have to wrap up the story?

[00:05:55] In which case, what do we, I think the language we use or use was what do we owe, you know, what stories need to be wrapped up and what stories blend into the original series. And how do we get there from where we are now to where they are when we first meet our characters in TOS. So a lot of that discussion led to the next sort of phase, which was talking about types of episodes. And by types, I mean like genres, like different types of things and just general ideas.

[00:06:22] And some of it was based on what we knew we wanted to do with some of the character work that season. Again, knowing that some of these characters have to land in a specific place and then some of these stories are kind of wide open. We don't know where some of these characters' fates are. We were just kind of throwing out different genres that might match those character journeys. And we had been talking about a lot about La'an and where she was going to go this season. And, you know, I had seen all the episodes, read all the scripts.

[00:06:50] See, I'd watched the rough cuts of all the episodes that were available to me in season three, including my favorite, which is episode nine. I'm blanking on the title. Yes, Terrarium. I watched that episode. Sorry, side note, just to give a shout out to Alan and Andrew, the writer and director on that one. I watched a rough cut, so none of the effects were really done. And obviously they shot a lot on the air wall, so the blend was great and looked gorgeous. But even without any of the VFX, I was like, this is special.

[00:07:18] This is just a really, everybody was so great in it. Every department had, and it was having now heard about it. It was such a challenging shoot to spend that much time, you know, on the wall, you know, in the middle of nowhere and trying to like figure out where space and time is. And Melissa is so incredible in that episode. Yeah. But we were talking about Lan's character in particular, and you know, going to some darker places. Obviously she had come from some dark places.

[00:07:44] And I just was curious if they had, you know, considered doing like a horror episode. My background obviously is horror, being a horror writer in different shows. But the room is filthy with horror writers. You know, Alan and Kat, like there's nothing but horror fans in there. And if you get Henry going on episode titles, he will tell you every horror episode from every single Star Trek. I had a very detailed list by the end of that first day. Wow. But I just threw out this idea of like a haunted house.

[00:08:15] And the idea was basically to try to do something like The Shining in space. Obviously, you know, that conjures movies like Event Horizons and things like that. But the movie I was thinking about at the time was something more like Solaris, both versions of Solaris. Ooh. Obviously the book too. But very specifically the Soderbergh one from a few years back, the Clooney one. And it went up on the board and there was dozens of genres and crazy ideas that we never got around to or eventually do without giving anything away.

[00:08:45] And we just started going back and talking about like which ones did we feel hadn't been done yet, which was a type of episode that the show hadn't really kind of taken a swing at. And the horror one, I think was attractive because we wanted, there was a desire, I think from everybody in the room to try to do something that was more, a little bit more psychological and a little bit just, you know, again, more disturbing to trying to get under the skin of some of these characters. And then I'm not sure who pitched it out first.

[00:09:12] It might've been Dana because we were talking about where Spock needs to get to in TOS, which is, and this is a line that ends up in the, in the movie or sorry, the episode. Sorry, we say the movie, which is he needs to make a little bit more of a turn back to logic. And it felt like who better to put in a haunted house, you know, who better to be both Mulder and Scully for you in a horror episode than Spock, particularly this version of Spock, the strange new worlds version.

[00:09:42] So that started to kind of coalesce pretty quickly. And we started to kind of talking about it kind of in a general sense. And then I want to say it was Alan actually, who started pitching the idea, because we weren't sure how many episodes Paul was going to be in. And there's a lot, if we're thinking this is going to be the end to position him, obviously for certain things to come. But I think it was Alan who, who pitched out, he might be an interesting person.

[00:10:06] And that really excited me because I just, as a fan of the show and the character of James Tiberius Kirk, I was fascinated by his relationship with his son and, and with Carol. And obviously that's addressed in, in strange new worlds in some ways, but I thought, oh, that's, that's pretty rich if we can dive into that. And so we kind of tabled that and we started kind of breaking the episodes, you know, kind of more in chronological order.

[00:10:31] And then we do like these arenas every, all the episodes, all 10 episodes have to be done in advance so that all of the creative partners can approve. And then we can start building the assets. Obviously with this one, we knew there wasn't going to be an asset. There was sort of an appeal to me was, hey, this one can save some money because we already have these sets and we can redress them. But having said that, you know, the concern that I had as a guy who's done a lot of horrors, horror is hard to shoot. It's, it's, it's not dissimilar to shooting an action movie.

[00:11:00] You have to find a lot of pieces and to his credit, I have to say Akiva was really, I wouldn't say they, they went back and forth on it, but he was really hell bent, excuse the, the phrasing on making sure that if we were going to do this, we, we went the distance. And to him, that meant bringing in a horror director and they did a search for directors. And again, I think it was Dana who had worked with someone who had worked with Axel previous because Axel was on fish's radar.

[00:11:29] And we got a glowing review because she had been in the, done a couple of shows for Flanagan from, from that camp. And within like five minutes of meeting her, it was just like, oh my God, this is definitely the person for the job. I don't know if you guys have chatted with her or her yet, but she is an incredible director and was just clearly just understood the material. And we, we met with her pretty early on. I think before I met, I even wrote the script, but we kind of pitched out what the general idea was.

[00:11:56] And then, you know, we, we broke the story, you know, as a group, and then I was lucky enough to get to write it. Yeah, we haven't spoken with Axel yet, but we are scheduled to. And if you're watching this on drop day, you can watch our conversation with her tomorrow. It should be dropping. Okay, cool. Please give her my best. She is a literal international treasure. Absolutely. I can't wait. So you talked about your history with horror or were there any specific examples you can think of where like that experience helped you in writing the script?

[00:12:25] And was there anything you were able to do here? You hadn't been able to do on previous shows because this, this episode pushes some horror boundaries that I've seen on television. It really does. Again, credit to Akiva, whose bloodlust is much stronger than mine. It's funny you say that. So I worked for many years on a show called Supernatural and I wrote an episode. I don't remember what season, but I remember the title. It was called Pac-Man fever. And it's a episode where one of the boys, the Winchester boys gets trapped at a video game.

[00:12:51] And very early on when I pitched it, the video game was going to be dead space. Not the actual game, the dead space, but a game right. Okay. Because I was like, can I get one of the Winchester boys in space? That would be cool. And we really went down the line on it pretty far. But Bob Singer, who was our producing director slash show co-show runner, he pointed out that on a network schedule, we wouldn't be able to really finish those visual effects and really make it work.

[00:13:19] And so we pivoted to, it ended up being kind of like a World War II zombie kind of thing, which was great. We put one of the boys and Dean Winchester into a military outfit and it was awesome. It worked out great. But I remember writing on my board when I pitched out, I wrote the teaser out was Dean in space. And I was, I always wanted to find a way back to, to that. So I would say that my experience on Supernatural certainly informed this. And this was an itch. I just didn't get to scratch was doing space horror.

[00:13:49] I'm also just a big fan of in the movies that I watched while we were breaking this. I definitely revisited Event Horizon. You can't do horror in space and not go back to the source material. Although that is very inspired by so many other movies too. But I did go back and watch the original Solaris. And then I watched Soderbergh Solaris, I think maybe twice. And then another one that we talked about as a reference point in the room that I rewatched was Sunshine. Oh, yeah. Which is kind of Project Hail Mary and then it becomes Event Horizon. Yeah.

[00:14:19] It's very, I think it's a really, it's a very sharp turn. It's a very sharp turn. I personally love that in a movie. I find that to be nothing but joyful, but it's, I think it was an interesting touch point for just, you know, doing horror in space. And then with entirely starting talking to Axel, like we started talking about more traditional horror films. Obviously the shining was top of mind.

[00:14:41] I definitely rewatched that one and then the haunting, but it's a long winded way of saying like, you know, for me, I think my background in horror certainly helped, but the desire to do space horror has been a 10 year dream of mine. And, uh, uh, I finally got to slay that dragon. That's so cool. Your space dragon. My space dragon. Yeah. So Star Trek fans, as I'm sure, you know, we like to pick up the little things.

[00:15:07] We like to hope maybe we're the first person to pick that thing up and prognosticate based on those. So division 12. Yeah. Get a mention in season three. We heard it was ADR. We get a little bit more detail on division 12 here. Are you able to tell us if we're going to learn more about this arm of Starfleet before the end of season four? Guys, I'm actually in an, on a, a secure location within division 12 right now.

[00:15:35] Oh, um, I can neither confirm nor deny that. I will say it was really fun when we were breaking the episode, we were kind of speaking about it in just a loose sense. And we all were really drawn to, and I was stunned that we ended up doing this because again, Star Trek tends to be beginning, middle and end. And this one, we really wanted it to feel open ended and a little bit again, unsettling.

[00:16:00] We wanted that, that unfamiliarity, you know, but I think with regards to division 12 appearing again, we were talking about it. I sort of asked, I was like, well, what would happen to the ship? Like, and the question I asked was like, was it what Starfleet's X files? Yeah. And so I was like, what is it? And I said, this has happened to me once before in my career. I was like, what is it like division 12 or something? And I said it as like a throwaway. This happened to me on supernatural. Uh, there was a, I can't remember what season, forgive me, but I was like, oh yeah.

[00:16:30] And like the murder, it's like, it's thing. It's like the, cause it was a Cain Abel story. I was like, yeah, that's like, it's the first blade. It's the first, you know, murder weapons, the first blade. And then that became Canon. It's like a, a, a clue and supernatural clue. I was like, no, that was literally, I was going to come back and figure something else out. But when we started talking about it more in the break, I think it was a key of his idea to go back and they were still posting season three.

[00:16:54] And he was like, let's, let's seat it here because that way it feels like it's part of the world and it won't feel like, you know, like a wait, what? Yeah. And it's all to the point that you say, which is, I mean, a key is a, I mean, he went to the start to the first, I think the first star Trek to come. He has like the program. He's like, it's insane. No, I, I, he's, he's a diehard, but he, he picks up and loves those things too. And so it was, I'm pretty sure it was his idea to drop it in there. Okay.

[00:17:20] And I just love that because it, again, it does that thing where you feel this very similar to like, oh, this was always here. Even though it wasn't. Yeah. Will we see it again? I sure hope so. Yeah. That's really cool. Like we, I mean, I don't know that I've heard of the backwards Easter egg before that is. And like how appropriate for a star Trek, right? Like we traveled back in time. Yeah. Cause it wasn't in the screeners. So we didn't hear it.

[00:17:48] And then we started hearing people talk about after the episode, we're like, what did they mention division 12? I don't remember hearing that. And then we had to go back and that's so delightful to me. I mean, there was an expression that I know that sometimes as a, as a viewer, I want everything to have been figured out. But then once you see how the sausage is made, you do realize that there are just these opportunities where you can kind of fill in some gaps. Uh, my old boss, uh, on supernatural Bob singer used to say almost like we planned it.

[00:18:14] So, uh, well, speaking of almost planning things, I'm hoping that transition works out. Uh, I'm, I'm enjoying seeing Spock on his relationship. Uh, you know, now that they've had a little time now that they're, they're past the honeymoon phase of the relationship and they're just kind of, you know, together, we get some flirting in the last episode with her boot removal. And, and here we get both like the tension when he's asking her what's wrong, but then the reassuring kiss she gives him. Yeah. I love all that stuff. It's, it's very natural. And it says a lot with just a couple of moments in the episode.

[00:18:43] Were you looking for moments to kind of talk about the relationship or were the, did those just kind of organically appears here writing the scene? No, we were looking for it. You know, the, that, that relationship goes to some interesting places. I can't spoil where it's going. And we really wanted to make sure a, we were tracking that relationship as alive. Um, and, but also that there's some awkwardness, you know, um, at the beginning of the episode, I love the way Ethan plays that moment. Like, obviously he's, you know, something isn't quite right, but it's, you know, this happens in relationships.

[00:19:13] Sometimes there's these bumps in the road and it's not about the other person. It really is. Sometimes it's not you, it's me. Um, and we wanted to do, to really track that, you know, throughout the episode. And then obviously we wanted to, to separate them, you know, in the episode. And it was also interesting playing the other side of that, because as you guys know from previous seasons, there were some, uh, shenanigans, however you want to say it between also, uh, Lon and Kirk and being able to have a little bit of that, you know, certainly the point.

[00:19:40] Uh, that we were kind of trying to get out in that, certainly in that hallway scene where they're walking and talking and she realizes that Carol and Kirk have split up. And obviously some of that is to, to keep the, the idea of David alive in the episode. Um, but it was also to sort of track that as well. So it was, it was, that was definitely by design. It was not something that came up organically in the writing. It was something we talked about a lot in the room and tracking that relationship in all the episodes. Uh, they, they have a thing on, on, on, on strange new worlds.

[00:20:08] I say they, cause I still feel like the new guy, but once the episodes sort of kind of start to take shape, we put a parallel track, which is all the characters. And we tried to track each episode, like where they are emotionally, where they are, you know, if there's some kind of plot mechanic going on with them, uh, with, you know, some kind of drama with X, Y, or Z to really make sure that we're touching on all those things and keeping all of those storylines alive.

[00:20:30] It is, uh, episodic, but there are serialized elements to the character storytelling that, uh, Henry in particular is, is really wonderful at, at keeping alive. So that, that emotion that you were talking about with horror movies, so that we still care about these relationships. It's cool to have a haunted house in space, but if you don't care about these people, you're not going to go on the journey. Well, and what could be scarier than being trapped with your current boyfriend and a hookup?

[00:21:00] And they both know. Yes. Right? Yes. And they know, yeah. It makes total sense. Yeah. It was, you know, we, we literally looked at it when we were breaking it and certainly while we were shooting is like, this was this trio, you know, and it was, there's an obvious love triangle there in some way, shape or form. Even if it's not active, there is, as you said, there's that history. And so it was, it was very organic in the breaking of it to want to touch on some of those things to keep those storylines alive. Yeah.

[00:21:30] So you mentioned that hallway scene and there's, there's Kirk is clearly about to ask La'an something changes his mind, thinks better of it and makes a ghost joke instead. Yeah. Yeah. Now, as the episode kind of suggests like some mysteries are, are mysteries. Right. But I mean, we've got you here. What, what was he going to say? You know, I always like to make sure that people can bring their own interpretation.

[00:21:58] I wouldn't say that my interpretation was as far off as yours. Forgive me for giving a slightly political answer, but I really do, you know, I think some of it is self-evident that he was about to obviously say something. And we were playing around a little bit with these ideas with specifically with La'an that, you know, that Starfleet really is her family and there's, there's good sides to that and there's downsides to that. And obviously we know where Kirk ends up.

[00:22:25] We know where he ends up as far as being a family man and where not his allegiances lie, but where his destiny is, you know? And so I would say we're kind of playing with all of that. So any takeaway is a good takeaway in that regard. But I do think he was pretty clearly about to say something along those lines and chickened out. So you're going to loss in translation. That's okay. Yeah, I'm going to loss in translation. Well, speaking of four movies. He actually just, it was about to say, hail Hydra. There we go. That was it.

[00:22:56] Are there hot dogs somewhere on this ship? Yeah. There aren't. It doesn't seem to be. Actually, there kind of were, but those were the fingers. There's fingers that we chopped off finger food. Yeah. Well, speaking of, of haunted houses and relationships, I admit, I, I go into a lot of ghost stories, kind of arms folded because a lot are kind of just the same. And they're kind of just going through the motions. Now this episode, I think it avoids a lot of that because it is so character focused, like you say. And for me, nowhere was that more evident than with Spock.

[00:23:26] I loved watching a ghost story through the Vulcan lens. Like I, it was so good. Can you address kind of tackling those scenes specifically? I don't have favorite characters, but if I were, as far as legacy characters, I mean, I grew up again watching, I watched Star Trek with my brother and he's my older brother. So obviously he was Captain Kirk and I'm Spock. Like that's just how that works. I want to apologize to my brother, Michael right now publicly for biting off the nose of his Spock figure. He had the figure. I did not.

[00:23:54] I don't know why he still has it as a, as a display of what a jerk I am. So you've been disfiguring Spock since you're a little. And I, well, I got to disfigure him again, I guess. That is partially where that came from. Um, no, it was, I, I just have always loved that character. I mean, I, I think I showed you guys this before, but I've kept this forever. This was a bookmark I had from like the eighties. I just love Spock as a character.

[00:24:18] Cause I think he's such a, an interesting, yes, he's Vulcan and yes, he's human, but I, I think, you know, hit the way in which he views the world is so unique. There's a, there's a childlike aspect of it. Obviously you see that shades later on with data, certainly a character that I got to write on supernatural Castiel. Like there's just something about people who look at the human experience from a different lens.

[00:24:40] That is so fascinating to use his term and to be able to put him in a situation where he really had to challenge what was real was so much fun. And I have to give a special credit to Ethan who, first of all, is just a wonderful human being. You know, Axel and I were like the newbies and he, he was our, our set guide. Like he took us everywhere. He sat with us every day at lunch. He is such a wonderful human being, but you know, this was a challenging episode.

[00:25:10] They're all challenging episodes for all of our cast, but this one in particular, cause he had to find a balance between how does a Vulcan express fear? You know, what does that really look like? And then obviously in the journey he's taking in the season. And again, he says this in the episode, so it's not a spoiler of going back to logic. How do you make that turn emotional? You know, how do you make that really feel, you know, resonant to the character?

[00:25:35] And I, I had fun writing it, but I had so much joy watching him perform it. There's one moment in particular. There's a moment in particular with the trio where they all, and we didn't talk about this, but if you watch it, you can see it where they all surrender to the ship. And they made a choice. I've never talked to them about this. I don't, I can't confirm or deny it. But for Spock, there's a moment where I love his chemistry with to bring. I love that history, bringing that history of that relationship back.

[00:26:04] And they just as actors have such great chemistry, but there's a, cause he's so just like, please go away. I don't, I don't, why are you here? I love, you know, I love annoyed Spock more than anything. It's the best, but there's a moment that if you watch it again, where they're at the door and he's just like, go away. But she's like, well, we both want to get out of here. So like, let me help you. And she brings up this trip they took in the past. And if you watch it again, Ethan, and it's so subtle, but this is why he's so brilliant.

[00:26:34] He, he, he, he lets the tiniest whisper of a smile go on the left side of his face. And that's the moment, like the ship gets up. Do you know what I mean? Like that's, that's the moment, you know, where it kind of creeps in really fully and in, at least in my opinion. And that's not something that was scripted that was not described in the movie at any point. We certainly talked about, you know, how the ship is behaving and how they should behave as, as performers.

[00:26:58] But I just loved that choice because that's that moment where you're seeing that Vulcan and human side, like kind of merge into one. He does have a fond memory of that. He does have a fond memory of that relationship. And again, we as viewers know where that relationship goes, you know, post Strange New Worlds, which was something that we also, as a reason why we wanted to bring, to bring into the episode. Was again, we know we have certain things that we owe and we wanted to make sure they were present in the characters lives.

[00:27:25] So it was, he's a joy to write for, but there's so many just little looks and little, like, if you, he does so much subtle work with his face that is so hard to do, impossible to write. I did not write it. It's just him being a terrific actor. That's really cool. And yeah, that is a thing we have noticed. I, there's more than one person on this cast who really excel with the micro expressions. Like, yeah. To the point where you're almost like, did they tell people in the auditions?

[00:27:54] Like, how are you with micro expressions? Cause it's like, it's impressive across the board. There's a bit in this where, where Paul who's so wonderful and, and I think has done a good job of honoring other Kirk's, but also making it his own. But yeah, you know, he's so resistant to what's happening. And then there's that moment where he says David for the first time.

[00:28:18] And it just breaks my heart because you can see that like, again, he's surrendering to the ship in my, from my point of view as a viewer, not as the writer of the episode. And I think it's, it's such subtle, small work, but it's so heartbreaking. And then the contrast, when you come back at that point, he's in a, a fever pitch desperate and actually believing his son is somehow in the wires of that thing. Yeah. It's such a joy, joy to watch that.

[00:28:41] And then there, I, there's countless moments I can point to cause Chrissy is such a rock star in this episode, but there is a moment that I just, I love where she sees the blade is in her hand and the relief that she has in that smile is, is so wonderful. It's so, cause I think it was written in the script. So I, I'd have to double check, but it's like, she's home now.

[00:29:04] And she just found a way again with that expression to really show you that, that, that she was happy. You know, we don't get to see Lawn smile a lot and it's a real smile and it's very chilling. And then the smile she has later on when she talks about David is so, even on the day, I think I remember turning to Axel and being like, Ooh, are we going to make it off set? Are we going to be okay? Somebody check on her. Yeah, she's true. That's great. They all had these moments. Everybody does.

[00:29:33] I mean, Rebecca has this moment again, not scripted, uh, or she cuts herself and it was, we were blocking the scene and she was kind of going to drop into camera and then fall off. But if you watch it, she drops down and she added this like, like almost euphoric smile. And again, it was like, she was playing the moment. Like, Oh, I'm at peace. Like I don't have to worry about, you know, hiding this thing anymore. It was such a great choice.

[00:29:57] And then my God, you could put together like probably an hour of Anson having the time of his life in that chef, uh, you know, thing and chopping. He was incredible. He, he went full Jack Torrance. He was amazing. So we have to talk about Anson, but I do briefly want to jump back here because you know, no, you're good.

[00:30:17] But you mentioned to pring and we agree, like kind of a brilliant choice to bring her back in a way that is creepy, but she's also like, she's acting as Spock's anchor, but also his tormentor. Yeah. And in a scene that takes place 99% in sick bay. Yeah. It'd be easy to understand if you put chapel in that role. So is there, is there a reason that you thought let's go to praying over chapel here?

[00:30:45] My, my memory of it was we, we, we did talk about a version where it might be chapel. Um, but it felt more like, again, playing some of the more, and I mean this complimentary, not, uh, in a bad way, the more soapy elements might play better at the end of the episode because you know, there's that moment where chapel's like, um, do you still love her and not me? Like, why didn't you conjure me? It's kind of the, maybe the subtext there, but like, it felt better to have her have a, have a real moment with Spock. Mm-hmm .

[00:31:15] To sort of track that relationship because in TOS, it, it, it does feel like she still has feelings for him. Yeah. And so that we wanted that to be real. And with to praying again, we knew that where that relationship is headed in TOS. And so we wanted to bring her back, but it felt like bringing her back, at least in the context there. I don't want to spoil anything whether or not you see that character again, but it definitely, we wanted to find a way. Uh, so that they, that character was fresh in audiences minds.

[00:31:43] I think I might've cheered when she came out of the body bag because I have been a long stand of, of Spock and to praying. They have amazing chemistry. I'm like, I know this relationship is doomed to fail, but I want them to enjoy as many moments between now and then as possible. And she is so wonderful. Yes. Like she plays it so great. And, you know, the question that everybody had that were eventually revealed to be manifestations was, you know, how do, how do I play this?

[00:32:08] And, you know, and we felt very strongly that you should play it straight, you know, but when there's a turn, obviously like, you know, the turn that Rebecca has when she, you know, cuts herself. And then we, we gave, I think Anson the most real estate because it just, he's so terrific. And you just knew he was going to do something special. And he, he took what was, I thought like good and made it like, oh my God, it's like off my, like, I didn't talk to him about it afterwards, but he was so clearly just having so much fun.

[00:32:37] Like you can just tell when an actor is just enjoying themselves, but I will say on the flip side of that later on in the episode, he has a very serious moment. And although there's a cut to, to La'an at one point, just to, for the audience to know that was all done and we did several takes, but that's all just one take of him. He, that monologue is, you really have to land that monologue. It's because you want to know that like, Hey, Alan was the guy when we were talking early on the process, because he was excited about doing a horror as well.

[00:33:05] Cause obviously he's a very accomplished horror writer. Uh, but he, he was the one who said, and I'm paraphrasing in the script, what he said, but the line that Pike has about space is infinite and it's, you know, beauty is that it's horrors. I'm paraphrasing myself now because I don't remember the exact line that came from something that Alan said. Cause we were talking about like, yeah, space is hopeful and awesome in star Trek, but like, if you open an airlock, it's bad. It's all bad. Yeah. Nothing good out there. And I just remember on the day I was like, Oh, I wonder how this is going to go. And I was just like, Oh my God.

[00:33:35] Like again, he's theater trained actor. I shouldn't be surprised, but he, he just, he takes the material and puts a spin on it in a very, very unique way. So yeah, that's a long answer to why we brought to bring back. So. No, we love it. I covered a lot there. I mean, with, with Anson, I've, I've often said he's a character actor trapped in a leading man's body. Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:33:56] He is so funny and quirky and, and I just, I, I really enjoyed, we didn't get a ton of time together on set cause he's got quite a busy schedule as the, as the captain. But I just loved the, the way in which he would tackle the material and like things that he would do to really kind of make sure that the intention was very clear. Do you know what I mean? Like that, that, that, okay.

[00:34:24] You wrote this, but not in a combative way, but like, I really want to make sure I understand where we're going here. And it always led to just great, just great stuff. He was definitely channeling like every nineties thriller, but like Dr. Giggles, the stepfather. I was just, I'm here for it. Again, Axel. And, and I would love to get her point of view on this, but like, she's a really special director because she really understood that we had to find moments. This episode lives in a slower pace.

[00:34:53] It lives in longer lingering shots and it lives in, you know, some really pretty tight closeups of characters reacting to things that maybe we can't see, but maybe we hear. And she really understood the assignment as the kids say, but watching her watch different moments was so joyful. Cause she genuinely, and you will see this when you are loves horror.

[00:35:18] Like I have a video and a picture of her at the end when Kirk is crawling on the, on the ground and there's blood everywhere. She's down on her hands to these, like it's her handprints and some of those. Oh wow. Cause she is so into it and, and really, really understands that this episode kind of lives and dies in these quieter moments. My favorite moment. And I have to give a special shout out to our director of photography, Glenn, who is just an incredible artist.

[00:35:48] They created this moment on the bridge when Kirk thinks the crew has found him, but he hears his son crying one more time. And he turns around and there's this incredible lighting crew that Glenn and, and, and all the electrics came up with where as he turns, the lights kind of fade down. And then the audio fades down as well. And it's such a great, just again, quiet moment that you have to, you have to take time.

[00:36:16] It takes time to create that energy both on set and create it visually, but a real credit to our assistant director, Woody, who, who built a schedule that really understood what those moments are. And a credit to Axel who, who understood, okay, these are the scenes that we can shoot quickly. And these are the scenes that I have to get these specialty shots. Like for example, like that shot of lawn when she does turn, there's that special lens on it. And you're just like, Oh, this nothing is good here. Nothing.

[00:36:43] This is all, this is going to be very bad, but you have to really kind of not fight for those moments, but you have to understand them in inherently. And Axel is just, she's just someone who really just gets it and is able to get those performances from people. I really, obviously you guys know this cast better than I do, because you guys have watched these episodes certainly more than I have and can appreciate their work.

[00:37:06] But I really thought, you know, they were all great actors coming into it, but then watching them and watching what they brought to the material and then watching Axel, you know, build these moments and, and scares with them was, was just a, was pure joy. It was so much fun. Yeah. One of my favorite moments is again, with Spock in the med bay, when he turns around and suddenly there's just bodies all over the, the beds that were previously empty. It's a great moment.

[00:37:29] I love his reaction, his Vulcan reaction to it, but it also reminds me of the TNG episode where something similar happens to Crusher. She's in the med bay and all the bodies just sit up at once. And she also has to like logic her way out of it. Yeah. Was that a, maybe a, an intentional reference to that episode or just kind of one of those happy coincidences? I would say it, it eventually became one, but one of the things that we talked about was there's a, there's a morgue scene in the, in Jaws that we talked about. It's obviously much less horrific. I mean, it's horrific in its own way. Yeah.

[00:37:59] And then obviously the fog, John Carpenter's, the fog definitely was, was, was top of mind. Some of the moments come up organically and then you realize, oh, this is actually been done before in Trek. Are we, are we mirroring it? Are we copying it? Is it, is it thematic or repetitive? I'm going to go with thematic. How many episodes of Trek are there, Jesse? Almost a thousand. Almost. They're like, so what are you going to do? Yeah. Like, and if you're going to copy somebody, copy the property you're working on.

[00:38:26] It's also one of those really, I think, fun things about something like this. When, when you are in a space, especially a space like the enterprise itself, you're going to find these echoes no matter what you do. And I think it's more about what is the story you're telling in that moment. Mm-hmm. I will say there is one moment there where there are so many logistic things you don't think about as a writer until you're on set. And you've written a scene where Spock has his communicator. He also has to have his phaser and he has to have his tricorder.

[00:38:56] And they have magical pants. Yeah. So there was this moment. And I remember Ethan rightfully pointed out, he's like, I'm supposed to kind of turn and then start to run this thing, but I'm holding a flashlight and my communicator. And he and Axel kind of talked about it and Ethan had this idea like, oh, I'll set it down. And it's funny. I remember watching on the day, I was like, oh, we'll just cut around this. This is like, oh, what are we doing? But then I watched it in the first assembly that Axel's first cut.

[00:39:22] And I just love that moment because it's again, it's a transitional moment because Ethan's yes, he's doing the yeoman's work of putting it down. But you can see he's like, okay, this is now serious. I am good. And because again, it's a slower camera movement, we're slowing the audience down with intention. And it ended up being a moment is like one of my favorites in the episode. Well, and I think it works kind of with what you were saying where it's like, so I will say right away or, you know, 40 minutes.

[00:39:52] And it's in horror is not necessarily the cup of tea that I would make when I go to the kitchen. I can appreciate it. I loved Event Horizon. It's probably like as far as I can go without like having a problem. But this episode you had mentioned, like we want to get under the skin and there's a pacing thing going on here. And I think that that absolutely lends to that because you're thinking to yourself, I mean, what would I do in this situation? Right.

[00:40:21] And it's like, you would have to pay attention to are my hands full? Do I need to look a different way? And it's those real moments that actually ground it. And then you mentioned, is it thematic? Is it copying sort of a thing? I got to say, like there is so much in this episode that a horror watcher will be familiar with. Right. Like you could almost say there are things here we expect.

[00:40:45] Like I expect there to be, oh, it's actually her holding the knife or I expect there to be a creepy door scene or I expect, you know, there to be dawning realizations and all these moments. But like, I think you guys nailed the pacing such that there was never a moment where I was like, oh, here comes thing. Right. Like it's masterfully done. And here's where you find out. I'm not asking a question. I'm just saying, holy hell, way to go, man. Well, I so appreciate that.

[00:41:14] But I really want to credit Axel again. You know, Axel's point of view, you know, obviously Akiva is an accomplished horror writer. Again, it was a room filthy with horror fans. But, you know, one of the things that Akiva in particular was really keen on was doing something that was more disturbing and disturbing isn't jump scares. You know, there are a couple of jump scares in here that are somewhat traditional.

[00:41:39] But Axel, when we first met with her, that was sort of her point of view, if my memory serves, was let this be creepy. You know, let it be her favorite word. And you can quote me on this is spooky. And and it sounds like a distinction without a difference, but it's actually very different. And again, on a show like Supernatural, we oftentimes did jump scares. We would literally write in the word jump scare, you know, jump scare here. And, you know, the director would figure it out with this.

[00:42:08] There were moments that were crafted to be jump scares and creepy and things like that. But I really have to credit Axel with with both the skill and the awareness of, you know, as we were shooting and then working in concert with. Again, I have to to give credit to Glenn, who is just like he is such an artist watching him and his crew light on the day. And now it's it's so changed when I started because you're seeing almost the finished project like on set in the dip tent.

[00:42:35] But then watching him do the color correction and even the bake on the wall, like it's it's truly painterly. And something like this really has to be something more like the haunting, the original, the haunting. Like it wants to live in that space because horror is filled with cliches. Horror is filled with moments, you know, are coming. But it's how you get there. And again, to go back to, you know, what we started talking about, which is it has to come from something character based. And that again, that's Akiva and Henry.

[00:43:03] That's always been there from when I first met them about the show was that that we can do any crazy idea you want, but it's got to come from a place of character. We have to be saying something about these characters, whether they're legacy characters or new characters is kind of immaterial. The story has to come from something that's grounded. So I appreciate you saying that. But, you know, I also like I'm so grateful that Akiva and Henry wanted to quote unquote go there so bad. Yeah, they really assembled an incredible team.

[00:43:32] And obviously everybody that's already existing, the cast and the crew. But but bringing in someone like a ringer like Axel was was a genius move. So I do have a specific question here because I mean, you mentioned like the difference between the jump scare and something a little more effective. I think it would have been an easy choice to blow Sam Kirk out an airlock. Right. Yeah. But no, you guys put them up against the window and you drained his blood and then you blew him out an airlock.

[00:44:01] And I'm like, so two questions. First of all, how dare you? That was we dared so hard. We dared. So upsetting to watch. But from the, you know, the actual production standpoint, how did you shoot that? Is he against the AR wall? Is that a green screen? Like was that painted after? How did that work? So a couple of things. That was one of the moments it came from the writers room.

[00:44:25] I don't remember who pitched it exactly, but that was one of those moments that as we were breaking it and then eventually as I was writing the outline and the script, I was like, well, this will never be in the movie. It's like, hey, it's super impossible. And it's super gross. Yeah. And the other moment that was like that was the chopping up fingers. Because we were just, we were just kind of riffing on like, what's the worst thing that we could see? And I think I pitched it first. Maybe, maybe, maybe it was somebody else. And then I was like, when I wrote the script, actually, I cut it out.

[00:44:53] Cause I was like, oh, we're never going to get away with this. There's no way we're going to chop off Pike's fingers. And it was Akiva. I'm going to again, credit his bloodlust. He was like, I think it was the first note he gave me. He was like, oh, we got to put the, where's the finger cutting? I think you forgot to put it in. Remember we talked about the finger cutting. But the Sam bit, it was, I, I was very hell bent on getting Sam in the episode. I am the youngest of two boys, Kirk bros for life. Obviously I wrote the Winchester boys for a long time, brother stories.

[00:45:21] And my brother was my entree into Star Trek. So there was no way Sam wasn't going to be in the movie, but we really wanted to kind of again, touch on the Kirk family. It's not a Kirk curse per se, but obviously we know what happens to Sam. If you're a fan of the show, you know, in that moment that this is not real or at least you hopefully do. But if you're a cursory fan and maybe haven't watched all of it, hopefully it's a holy shit moment.

[00:45:47] But I will say that that moment just got grosser and grosser the more we got into it. And then I think, and again, you don't have to ask Axel this, but like the, I wonder if I saw the text, the glee with which when she saw the final VFX, I mean, was palpable even over text. She was so thrilled. There was a moment to where the blood hits the lens. I mean, it is so hard are, but again, a credit to, to a Keevan Henry again, keep his blood

[00:46:14] lust, but they really wanted it to be disturbing. How we shot it was a very complicated day, but we shot it all on the bridge. Oh, wow. Poor Dan was in the rig for a long time. It's a combination of a stunt performer and Dan doing it. And I, I really want to, cause I got to know him as a person. He's a really lovely human being, but Dan's performance in that scene is, is outstanding. He, he really has to anchor you from the moment he shows up.

[00:46:40] You really have to believe that he believes this is real and he plays it totally real. And there's a moment when it's in the scene prior where it's, it's when Kirk says, Oh, I think I heard my son. And that just like the heartbreak that Dan brings it again, not scripted. Like he's like, Oh fuck. My brother's really messed up. I got to talk to him. Like he's in shock because he's clearly not himself right now. Without that, you don't believe the turn.

[00:47:05] And even if you've already guessed it, you, you at least can see that, that there is a, a facade that's being put forth to really kind of trick Kirk. And that's, that's credit to Dan. Um, but no, it was a combination of a stunt rig. They put in a rig to kind of do the pole. And then that poor guy or Dan was kind of up in a harness as the glass was breaking. And it's very challenging to do any kind of, if you talk to any actors than wire work,

[00:47:31] whether it's, uh, I remember, uh, there was an interview recently about project Hail Mary and Ryan Gosling was very passionately against wire after making that film, but he was such a gamer and he's clearly an, uh, you know, an athlete in his, his normal life. And, but he, we talked a lot about the character and where the character was going. And that was like one of my favorite moments, uh, cause that relationship is one of the many and Star Trek strange new worlds that they've explored that I've really loved getting to see,

[00:47:59] you know, again, they're kind of coloring between the lines and over the line sometimes. Um, but getting to see that relationship, uh, from a different light. And, and we wanted to play the reality of it. Like that, that, that how does Kirk view his brother? You know, so all of that is, is real from the sense of Kirk's point of view. I mean, you kind of answered my question, but I am a self-avowed Sam Kirk Stan. Oh, the best. And definitely have been wanting to see more of the brothers and more of like their love for each other.

[00:48:28] Cause we've gotten some of their rivalry in the past seasons, but like really seeing like what they mean to each other to make this, this future that we know is coming hurt even more. Yeah. And so, I mean, thank you for giving this that when I, when I was watching this episode, I was like, this is what I've been wanting. Yeah. And again, just credited to Dan, like I, I was interested in that character prior to watching all the episodes, but I just think his work is, is really superb.

[00:48:51] I, he's also just a wonderful human being, but it's, you really have to, you know, kind of hold your own and you're also, you're holding space for a character who we do know that, that, that legacy. And it was such an easy add to the episode. Cause we're talking about being a father and again, performance wise, when Kirk says, you know, how do you balance it? He's like, well, I don't, you know, was so honest and real. And I certainly, you know, can relate to that now in, in a different way. Um, yeah, he's, he's just a terrific actor.

[00:49:21] I'm looking forward to more, uh, Kirk brother scenes then. I definitely wrote a Kirk brother scene later on, but I can't say when. All right. All right, man. It's crazy to me that like, like you had mentioned a lot of star Trek fans know where Sam Kirk ends up. Yeah. And you guys looked at that and went, that's getting off too easy. We, we really, really hurt him. It's like we triple murdered him.

[00:49:47] I cannot tell you like, cause you know, when you're watching a rough cut, you're, you're understanding the cutting pattern and you're understanding that like, oh, the visual effects will be in here, but it just got, it got grosser and grosser. Even I was like, is this too far? Did we broken this? Um, yeah. And the finger thing too. I, I still, I cannot believe that exists. I can't believe that was real. I felt the same way. I was watching it. You know, there's like the white shot of him cutting veggies. I was like, oh, that'd be messed up if he didn't cut his fingers. And I thought, oh, they're not going to do that. Yeah. Two shots later. They're doing that.

[00:50:16] I love the way that was shot and edited. And again, I mean, Anson was just, I wish they would just release every take cause every take was so, uh, uh, you know, Stanley Kubrick said to Jack Nicholson, um, real is good. Um, what is it? Or I can't remember the exact quote. Is that on video? I can just catch you a video of him saying it. Yeah, there, there is a video of, of, uh, Jack Nicholson talking about it. One of the things he said to me that I've, I've always remembered was in movies.

[00:50:43] You don't, you don't try and photograph the reality. You try and photograph the photograph of the reality. But I think, you know, what, what Anson really brings to that moment is, is, uh, is a joy, you know, that's kind of unexpected, but it's, it's, it's, it's in keeping to the character. Like, Oh, I can be free of my fate. I could just be a cook. This will be great. And then he grinds out his digits.

[00:51:08] The amount of emails I have photographs, tests of that bit is, is horrific. Um, and the absolute, again, I'm going to call her out and give her credit. Sure. Joy that Axel had on that day was a chef's kiss. Just, just delightful. Truly horrible. I have seen every episode of star Trek with the exception of most of enterprise.

[00:51:34] This is the first time I have physically looked away from the screen while watching a star Trek episode. And I did it twice. So for that, what was the other job? Sam Kirk and Pike's fingers. I was just like, okay. Okay. I have like, I got to keep my eyes open. Cause like, I got to do this for the podcast, but like, this is hurting me. So like, honestly, put it on the poster. That's like the best compliment you can get. I cannot thank you enough for that.

[00:52:04] It was intense, man. That's great. I'm thrilled. Well, to Jesse's point earlier about the effectiveness of the episode, the parts I was mostly impressed by were the rug pulls and going back to T'Pring. She is the most rational and convincing hallucination I've ever seen put to film. Like at first I'm like, okay, she's not here. I hope she's here. I like Tupring within moments. I'm like, oh no, I think she's here. I think she got teleported to the ship. What is going on? And then the same, same with the crew.

[00:52:33] Like, I'm like, oh, these guys are definitely phantoms. And then you keep playing them. They play themselves so well. And you're like, oh no. Okay. They beamed into the haunted house. This is cool. How's this going to play out? I mean, I imagine was that a process of like, when and how are we going to do the rug pull? I like it. Yeah. Did you work to like, audiences are smart. We really need to go the extra step to convince them. And then how do we reveal it? There were, I'm blanking on what they were specifically, but there were a couple more moments where we kind of pushed it. And it was Akiva. I remember on notes on one draft.

[00:53:02] He was like, the audience is ahead of you. We got to lose this. They'll know. And there's times when you want them to know. And then there's times when you don't. I don't remember the exact specifics, but there were two moments. We didn't cut anything per se, but it was just a moment where you're like, oh, the audience will know. And then again, credit to our cast and our director. Like they had to play the reality of it. Like, I remember, I think it was Rebecca asked me like, but how do I know that? And I was like, you're a ghost.

[00:53:29] And she laughed, but like her question was right, which is like, like, what am I playing? And, you know, our philosophy on it, you know, in the, in the tone meeting we had was these characters are playing as manifestations. These have been kind of plucked from, you know, people's memories, but it's a haunted house. So there wouldn't be an idealized version of it unless they needed to be, you know, and we wanted to make sure. And that's why there's a lot of like callbacks and things in the episode.

[00:53:55] And it was helpful to bring back characters like Dupring to make sure that there was that feeling like, oh, this is fake. But wait, is it? But no, it's fake. But no, it isn't. And then again, you, we were pot committed to, to, to killing Sam in a horrible way. So we were kind of in for a penny, but there, I do remember there was like one or two moments prior to that where Akiva to his credit was kind of seeing the cut, you know, while I was still writing it. And he was like, ah, that's not gonna, that's not gonna play.

[00:54:23] Uh, and then Henry is so great too, at, at just finding the emotional moment so that you realize, you know, let's make sure when we were breaking it that I'm invested here. So like when we were talking about specifically that scene, when the crew came on, like that's where it was so easy to bring Sam in. Cause you needed somebody who could speak to Kirk directly on a personal level, on an emotional level. So that the audience could either say, oh, that's a phantom and that's shitty. Or they could say like, wait, is that? Okay. So they're safe now?

[00:54:52] Because those are the moments like when the lights come on in the horror movie, you're like, oh, you, you released the tension. But we wanted to kind of play with that knob a little bit, you know, again, all under the umbrella of trying to be disturbing, trying to let it be unsettling versus boo. So I love Una's line of, I never liked her anyway. Yeah. It's a great line. And it's one of those lines too, where I'm like, okay, these guys are really here. This is like, yeah. I'm equipping. I'm, I'm bought in, but she's not there.

[00:55:21] She's a manifestation of Spock's mind. So is he, did he have like crippling fear that the people around him didn't like his girlfriend, didn't like to bring? Is that what we're saying? That's, that was the, that's what it was for me. Um, but also it's one of those moments. I'll just be honest when I was writing it, the best time is when you're writing that first draft. And the characters just start talking. And I was writing that scene and, and it was very obvious that someone had to say like, wait, your ex-girlfriend was here. And, and then I, I just love Rebecca as an actor.

[00:55:50] She, I think she, her comedic, her, all of her skills are great, but comedically, I think she's really funny. And that line just came out. It was not, it just was like, yeah, I never liked her anyway. And then on the day it was just like, oh wow, she is so, she's so funny and so great. But these are all meant to be reflections of what Spock might think these people think. I like that. And it fits in more than just that way because like, Una might see some of herself into praying because she's been called, you know, you're where fun goes today.

[00:56:20] So it's like, yeah, it works on a lot of levels. So yeah, I, I really like that. Now we did briefly talk about the hallway scene and it is so messed up, but La'Anne gives Kirk a very prescient warning about the death of his son. Is this meant to indicate that there's something up with her temporally?

[00:56:46] Cause she's already been an alternate timeline or is this, is this Kirk because you know, they're both having manifestations at this point. Yeah. Is this her saying what would scare Kirk the most in that moment? Or is it, is there something more? I'm going to give you my interpretation, but I want to preface it by saying all interpretations are valid.

[00:57:05] You know, when, when we were talking about that scene, we wanted her to say something that would really, I think the way we kind of phrased it in the room was what would hurt worse than being stabbed in the belly. And obviously, you know, because we were talking about David, it felt like a very organic way to sort of bring that alive, if you will. And we kind of settled on referencing what happened in an oblique way originally.

[00:57:35] And my thought process on it, and this comes from writing on Supernatural, very specifically an episode that I wrote. I can't remember what season. It doesn't matter. You know, if you're, if you're dead, you exist outside of space and time, you know, so it doesn't really matter where you are, you know? And that, it made me wonder, like, could she see, was this real? You know, and so originally it was oblique in a way so that as the audience, you would maybe go, wait, is she talking about what happens in that movie?

[00:58:03] And again, credit to Akiva, whose bloodless knows no bounds. He's such a great writer because he really understands. I think he oftentimes thinks of himself as an audience member. And I remember that was a specific note that he gave. He's like, you got to go harder. He's like, I don't know what it is necessarily, but you got to go harder. That was his note. And so I went pretty hard, you know? And again, that's one of those ones where I was like, oh, this is, well, we'll pull this back, right? But it just felt right.

[00:58:33] And it's not an easy thing to come up with per se or easy thing to write, but it's easier to write it than it is to perform it. And that day was one of my favorite days shooting because, again, Chrissy has to go do a lot of things in this episode, a lot of moves. But that performance was so chilling. And again, that's one of those moments where I did, as I said before, I looked at Axel. I was like, are we getting out of here alive? Are we safe?

[00:59:00] Because she plays it with like that smile that she has, that turn. And then there's a determination she makes at that moment, which is, and now I'm going to kill you. And she means it. That's not written in the script. That's just performance. So to be able to take it there, and we had talked about what that moment was. And then we talked about it with Paul as well, because we wanted him to know like, yes, we are definitely referencing this moment. Because he was like, are you guys referencing? Like, yes, we are without a doubt referencing that moment.

[00:59:30] And the hope was again to let it be as disturbing as possible. I certainly hope that that's the result. But I can say at least on the day, it was so much fun watching how Chrissy just totally committed. Just absolutely committed. I was, again, as I was frequently in this episode, I was very creeped out. And it just, it does fit into that. Put it on the video box. I'm very creeped out. It does fit into that larger Star Trek milieu. Like we've talked about it before.

[00:59:59] Like fate and destiny are real things in Star Trek. And this is not the first time they've been mentioned. And it's like, whether it's a self-fulfilling prophecy or however it comes about. Like now I would like to see a deleted scene of Shatner saying, damn it, La'Anne was right. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny again, it all is character based. Like that line was important, but it was equally important to show him at the end calling and failing.

[01:00:27] You know, he has that line to Sam. It's not really Sam, but he's like, I'm going to do that for my son. And you see him trying and it's, one of the things we talked a lot about with Kirk, and this was less about this episode and more about the character, was like how hard it is to be in Starfleet and have family. You know, it's, there's the obvious analogy of being, you know, a military spouse.

[01:00:49] But if you were light years away, like, you know, doing God knows what, God knows where, that's an enormous stressor. And so it was, it was a lot of fun to explore that. I was convinced that you've mentioned Star Trek is hopeful and it is. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, once they actually get back to the enterprise, all the injuries and mutilation will be gone. It'll be like, oh, that was part of the manifestation.

[01:01:18] And you did not give me that. Was there, was that an early choice? Like, yes, definitely getting hurt. Yeah. Again, it was all under the umbrella of like, let's, let's let this be as disturbing as possible. I would argue a little bit though, that I do think that of everyone's story and he's the only one that really sort of beats the ship. I do think that there is optimism with Spock's last line. When she says to him, you know, to her, it brought me back to her, to logic.

[01:01:48] Right. Again, I love Ethan's performance in that moment. I love Glenn's camera move there. Like everything just kind of came together in such a, again, as a Spock fan, for me, I'm just speaking for me as a fan. I love that moment. And I would personally, I would argue at least as a viewer that that moment left me feeling hopeful for him, obviously knowing where the character goes and so on and so forth, but everyone else that was totally boned. Yeah. I was like, I know there's an episode after this. They're going to be fine.

[01:02:16] And you know, it's the future, but like, wow, they are all very badly cut up. And like, and Spock in particular, I think to your point, what does make that optimistic is like this dude is arguably the most messed up. Like he's missing tips of his ears. He's bleeding everywhere. Like he knows and like, was able to know from the start, I'm having a psychological break. So it's like, there are arguably a few more layers for him.

[01:02:44] And, but for him to be the one that's voiced like, oh yeah, I, I know how to get through this. And it almost worked. I'm going to, I'm going to double down on logic now. It's like, it's a brilliant moment. And I, I agree completely. And you guys were rough, but I, nothing you're saying is I'm not taking as anything other than just the highest praise that I could ever imagine. Like this was our hope. So thank you. I know that sounds messed up. I apologize if that makes me a bad person.

[01:03:13] You don't want to come out of this episode being like, yeah, I was really warm and fuzzy after that. Right. Yeah. But I will say it is part of a larger story and, and you will see ramifications for what has transpired here. And that was, that was by that's again, credit to Henry and, and to, to Akiva. That was by design. Well, to the point about Spock's logic, Star Trek is a science fiction show. And a lot of people who come to it, love the science fiction. Yeah. Yeah. And it's dabbled in the supernatural here and there.

[01:03:42] Do you guys struggle with that, with this one? How did you handle the supernatural elements? Did you, did you go back and forth on how much to lean into it? We have a technical expert, Dr. Aaron. And I actually emailed with her quite extensively because I really wanted to know, one of the wonderful things about her is that she's obviously a genius, capital G. But she's a huge Trek fan. And I was like, how would you say ghost? Like, like, cause they wouldn't say ghost.

[01:04:10] Like Henry was very, very, very adamant that we had to like, and there's a joke about it. He's like negatively charged ions. He's like, you mean ghost? I mean, negatively charged ions. I love that moment. There's like a longer cut where you could, you could just have them saying that back and forth if you wanted to for like an hour. But Dr. Aaron gave me that exact phrasing. There's a couple other phrasings that she gave because again, to Henry's credit, like it has to feel like Star Trek. Like it can't feel like a horror episode.

[01:04:37] And you have to give the, not just Star Trek fans, but the Starfleet point of view on it. Like how would they really address this? They wouldn't be saying boo. Would they have a conversation? Do you believe in ghosts? Sure. Yes. Can we leave them disturbed? Can we leave them disturbed? Not knowing that's sort of the purpose of that line that Pike has at the end when he's talking about other division 12 cases. It's really kind of, you know, up to the viewer to decide. But no, it wasn't a particular struggle, but, but Henry was very clear from the beginning.

[01:05:04] And Dr. Aaron was incredibly helpful to make sure that the language sounded like Star Trek, even though perhaps the visuals did not quite look like a traditional episode. Well, that brings up the point. I suppose we have to ask you before we wrap things up. Sure. Robbie, what happened on the Griffin? What's going on over there, Robbie? Now I will say, I have my theories. Rose Harper is an anagram of phase error.

[01:05:32] So I assume there was an error with the phase coils and they like went to the wrong dimension or cling on hell. What do you got, Robbie? I'm, that sounds great. I would rather leave that up to the, I would rather leave that up to the viewer. You know, all theories are valid. Again, I would, I would point to movies like, you know, Solaris and shining again as inspiration where the horror is personal because of what you bring to it. Yeah. Hopefully division 12 cracks that someday.

[01:06:03] If division 12 ends up being a series, I really hope you're writing on it. Dude, sign me up. Man. Write your congressman. If you're listening to this, there's a hole in the wall in the shape of me if that was a real thing. I mean, I would run screaming. I had a note earlier of like, I would watch a show of like Spock is scully and Kirk is molder just investigating things across the universe. 700 hours of that. Yes. 700 hours of that. I would watch that for a million years. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:34] Well, Robbie, when all is said and done, and this is just yet another episode in the long list of 900 episodes of Star Trek. What do you think this one will be remembered as? What will fans call it the one where? I hope it's the one where I got disturbed or got scared. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to categorize that.

[01:06:57] It's funny, you know, going back and watching old episodes when I was writing this, the feeling that you have at different points of your life bring different energy to it. You know, like watching, was it City on the Edge of Forever or Balance of Terror or, you know, I'm trying to think of other episodes that, because those weren't right, quite totally thematically in line with it. But like, you know, even watching like rewatching, it was just for another episode. It's not, oh no, it was for this one.

[01:07:27] It was, I rewatched Space Seed, you know, I don't know. I, it's like everything is different from different points of your life. Like Space Seed was so fascinating to watch because we originally were kind of going to lean a little bit more into the con of it all. Like at one point, I guess I can say this, this is not a spoiler. We had talked about, could we, do you remember the mask that Khan wore in Star Trek and Wrath of Khan? Like that, that crazy mask that he has on. Oh yeah. It's almost like a Kylo Ren thing. I was like, could we use that?

[01:07:57] Could that be something that like is part of the iconography here? And we went down the road on it and it wasn't that we, we felt that we couldn't, but the story just ended up breaking in a way that it wasn't kind of part of that. It's a long winded answer to say like, I don't know. I hope it's viewed as, as what it was intended, which was an episode meant to be unsettling. And then I'm very curious to see how it plays in the context of the 10. And I'm so insular in the process. So I know what's coming.

[01:08:24] So, but once it's, it's, it's, it's out to everybody at the audience, it's theirs. It's not mine. So my, my hope is that we did exactly what you said it was for you guys, which was, we disturb you. I hope people look away in the best way possible, but I also hope they go back and look at it, especially in the context of later episodes and see some, maybe some things in a different light. Mm-hmm. Well, when I muster up the courage to watch it again, I'll let you know. Yes.

[01:08:50] Again, when I muster up the courage to watch again, put it, put it on the IMDb right now. I could not ask for a better review. Happy to be of service. Well, we've come to the point Robbie, where you have to make a choice. Okay, great. What is your favorite line from this episode? That is the easiest answer. Cause it was, do you guys ever see the movie breakfast club? Oh, yep. You remember the moment at the end where Anthony Michael Hall has written the letter and he kind of punches himself on the arm.

[01:09:17] That's become kind of a shorthand between me and my wife and some other writers about like, oh, like it's that moment where you're like, but my favorite draft is the vomit draft is the first draft. Cause you're discovering things that were not in the break and they're just, the characters are starting to talk to you. And this is very cheesy, but given my background that I've shared, I hope it makes sense. There's the scene where it's after Spock has seen Tuping in the med bay. And originally it was scripted. They're kind of talking over one another.

[01:09:44] It's, it's better edited in the final version, but she's kind of talking about like, I was here, I was there, there. And as I was writing it, I, it was, you know, cause you're in a final draft and it was to bring us saying this, and I was writing out what she was saying. And then it was Spock's turn to talk. And I just wrote fascinating and it was not planned. It was not anything that like, but it was so organic and it was, it was not just me being a fanboy, but it was totally me being a fanboy. So I have to say like, there's many lines in it.

[01:10:13] I love if I had to pick my favorite to write though, it was fascinating just because as a, just a lifelong Trek fan and to have it be organic. And then to see how the sort of spin that, that Ethan put out in the moment, because obviously he, he's in a, in a very bad state potentially, but he can't help it be curious. And I love that about Spock. He's genuinely fascinated by it. And so to have that come out organically, not planned, man, that was joy to write. That was, that was pure joy.

[01:10:43] Man. Fascinating. Absolutely. Well, speaking of pure joy, Robbie, we have to say thank you so much, both for this episode and for sitting down with us to talk about it, because this is not an experience I have had with Star Trek. So to be able to learn about it from the source is, is really meaningful. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. And, and again, I so appreciate everything you guys do. It was so lovely to get to meet you guys and, and to have that, that, that time once that was, was really fun. So thank you. Thank you.

[01:11:14] And we'll see you for the finale. Yes. Yes. I'll see you guys down the road. I'll see you guys down the road.